November 01, 2009
— Gabriel Malor Starting December 1, only government-sponsored displays will be allowed inside buildings on the Olympia Capitol campus. This will allow the annual state-sponsored "holiday tree" to go up in the Capitol rotunda, but prevent the kind of circus that developed last year. Displays will be allowed outside on the Capitol grounds during activities or gathering, but only on a temporary basis. Under the new rules they must be removed immediately after the activity or gathering ends.
I wrote about this here with background and here mocking the evangelical atheists who started it. But to quickly sum up: by the time things were done last year, the Capitol was playing host to a Nativity scene, an atheist placard equating religion with myth, two Christian displays mocking atheism, and a menorah, as well as the annual tree. Applications for a Festivus pole, a sign from Fred Phelps which said "Santa will take you to hell", and a Flying Spaghetti Monster were put on hold when the state put a moratorium on displays.
The atheist group which started the brouhaha by putting up the sign: "Religion is but myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds." is declaring victory:
Annie Laurie Gaylor, co-president of the Wisconsin-based Freedom From Religion Foundation, said she was pleased about the new rules but added that they don't go far enough."I don't think Nativity scenes belong on the outside of capitols either," Gaylor said.
She pledged to put up a large sign if a Nativity is allowed this year on the Capitol campus.
"We will match whatever they do," she said. "I don't think the public will be any happier about it on the outside than they would be on the inside. I encourage the state to avoid the entire debacle."
Whose fault is this really? I blame the Supreme Court for perpetuating such a ridiculous interpretation of the Establishment Clause.
Posted by: Gabriel Malor at
11:05 AM
| Comments (253)
Post contains 348 words, total size 2 kb.
The same is true with "global warming". Force them to take out all references in state schools, museums, etc.
Posted by: crosspatch at November 01, 2009 11:09 AM (ZbLJZ)
Posted by: toby928 at November 01, 2009 11:10 AM (PD1tk)
Funny the communists didn't use religion, then.
Posted by: Democrats at November 01, 2009 11:11 AM (MMC8r)
Posted by: nickless at November 01, 2009 11:12 AM (MMC8r)
Posted by: Gmac at November 01, 2009 11:13 AM (5KtGL)
Ah, lawyers, is there anything they can't screw up?
Posted by: AmishDude at November 01, 2009 11:16 AM (ItSLQ)
This is a Christian nation.
An America that ignores/avoids anything to do with Christmas on the grounds of political correctness is doomed.
Posted by: Tweet at November 01, 2009 11:16 AM (f8+ox)
Ah, such scriptural words of wisdom from that douchenozzle Fred Phelps.
Posted by: Intrepid at November 01, 2009 11:19 AM (92zkk)
Posted by: Bill at November 01, 2009 11:20 AM (rEgvK)
Posted by: Santa Claus at November 01, 2009 11:21 AM (bKOrt)
Posted by: toby928 at November 01, 2009 04:10 PM (PD1tk)
atheism is what it claims not to be- a religion
Posted by: YRM at November 01, 2009 11:21 AM (T/Ad3)
Posted by: Jones at November 01, 2009 11:26 AM (1cda8)
Posted by: TXMarko at November 01, 2009 11:26 AM (4NNyu)
Posted by: Affirmative Baracktion at November 01, 2009 11:27 AM (Oxen1)
Posted by: mystry at November 01, 2009 11:27 AM (kmgIE)
Posted by: Jones at November 01, 2009 11:27 AM (1cda8)
Posted by: YRM at November 01, 2009 11:29 AM (T/Ad3)
Lawyers can fuck up a ball bearing on a sand dune with a rubber mallet.
Posted by: sifty at November 01, 2009 11:33 AM (wr1Lf)
Posted by: nickless at November 01, 2009 11:34 AM (MMC8r)
Alexis de Tocqueville recognized what made America special and why America's type of democratic government would be successful was America's foundation in Judeo-Christian values.
Let's be honest, Christmas decorations hurt no one. Banning Christmas is a victory for the Leftists, and all enemies of the U.S.A.
Posted by: Tweet at November 01, 2009 11:34 AM (f8+ox)
I did not expect any other outcome from my state. Remember, this is also the state that removed the Christmas trees from the airport after a rabbi complained.
I predict a glum holiday season this year.
Posted by: ParanoidGirlInSeattle at November 01, 2009 11:34 AM (RZ8pf)
Posted by: mystry at November 01, 2009 11:35 AM (kmgIE)
>This is a Christian nation.
tens of millions of your fellow Americans disagree
Posted by: Jones at November 01, 2009 04:27 PM (1cda
Millions of Americans also believe that Bush directly caused 9/11.
Remember boys and girls, Athiests really do hate you.
Posted by: Jim in San Diego at November 01, 2009 11:39 AM (H7Rlw)
Posted by: Scrapiron at November 01, 2009 11:43 AM (1kwr2)
Posted by: rawmuse at November 01, 2009 11:43 AM (dsExj)
Nobody is imposing their religion on anyone. Nobody is forcing anyone to convert. It's Christmas, you assholes.
There is NOTHING but good associated with Christmas.It's a time cheer and goodwill and generosity. Christmas brings out the best our shitty fellow humans.
Only a fucking godless self-hating sour communist would see danger and offense in Christmas.
Posted by: Tweet at November 01, 2009 11:45 AM (f8+ox)
Posted by: Bill at November 01, 2009 04:20 PM (rEgvK)
What crap! Yeah, like the establishment clause, as interpeted by the SCOTUS, is going to have any impact on Radical Islam. The end result will be quite the opposite, but as long as it weakens Christanity and make the lives of Christans more difficult, I'm sure that's all you care about.
Posted by: Jim in San Diego at November 01, 2009 11:45 AM (H7Rlw)
Posted by: rawmuse at November 01, 2009 11:46 AM (dsExj)
Posted by: eman at November 01, 2009 11:49 AM (ZzgoC)
Posted by: eman at November 01, 2009 11:50 AM (ZzgoC)
BTW nobody is more obsessed with religion than atheists.
Posted by: Lemmiwinks at November 01, 2009 11:51 AM (IqfKc)
Posted by: eman at November 01, 2009 04:50 PM (ZzgoC)
Like Athiesism?
Posted by: Jim in San Diego at November 01, 2009 11:52 AM (H7Rlw)
It won't stop Muslims from trying, but it will at least stop progressives from helping Muslims defeat Christianity, which is their only real goal anyway.
Posted by: Jaynie59 at November 01, 2009 11:53 AM (YjQWV)
Posted by: eman at November 01, 2009 11:53 AM (ZzgoC)
What of those who are not Christians? Are they second class citizens?
Not second class citizens; non-Christians living in a country that was founded on Judeo-Christian values, the same values that made America great.
The U.S.A. isn't just some country. This is great nation, a special nation. And it wasn't made this way by people who thought celebrating Christmas in schools and public decorations should be banned.
Posted by: Tweet at November 01, 2009 11:55 AM (f8+ox)
What of those who are not Christians? Are they second class citizens?
No because Christians as a whole do not consider anyone to be second class. That is an Islam thing.
Posted by: Lemmiwinks at November 01, 2009 11:56 AM (IqfKc)
All religions are human inventions.
Fine. Whatever. Believe what you want to believe.
Look, eman, I dig you. Always have. But you can't sit there and tell me Christmas and other Christian holidays are detrimental to our country.
Posted by: Tweet at November 01, 2009 11:58 AM (f8+ox)
Posted by: Tweet at November 01, 2009 12:00 PM (f8+ox)
Posted by: eman at November 01, 2009 12:00 PM (ZzgoC)
Posted by: Karl Malone's penis at November 01, 2009 12:00 PM (3nOK/)
Posted by: eman at November 01, 2009 12:01 PM (ZzgoC)
You're dumb.
Posted by: The Prophet at November 01, 2009 12:02 PM (SUU19)
THEN, I got to thinking about the Dalia Lama, (or however you spell it). And I just realized that "Dolly" the cloned llama was kinda named after the holy Buddhist.
Posted by: Tweet at November 01, 2009 12:03 PM (f8+ox)
Got to agree. The entire Establishment Clause caselaw has been contorted to one simple test: Does the display offend someone - if it does, you are establishing a religion.
Posted by: Mallamutt at November 01, 2009 12:03 PM (V9SYy)
Posted by: Officer Paddy O'Irony at November 01, 2009 12:04 PM (PD1tk)
It won't stop Muslims from trying, but it will at least stop progressives from helping Muslims defeat Christianity, which is their only real goal anyway.
Posted by: Jaynie59 at November 01, 2009 04:53 PM (YjQWV)
Atheists are the greater threat to this nation, so I'd rather join forces with Muslims against Atheists, than I would roll over to the likes of your false argument.
Posted by: Jim in San Diego at November 01, 2009 12:05 PM (H7Rlw)
So you would defend an Atheist display on public property?
I can't imagine what it could be, other than some offense anti-religious message. But if it was celebrating something in a positive and cheerful manner for the benefit of humanity and charity, I would certainly defend it.
Posted by: Tweet at November 01, 2009 12:06 PM (f8+ox)
They're banning "areligious displays", really? I find "Cell phone parking lot" to be an areligious display. And "Emergency Phone" is really an areligious display. Hello? Bueller?
Posted by: Al at November 01, 2009 12:06 PM (VtygY)
Posted by: Agnostics at November 01, 2009 12:07 PM (MMC8r)
Posted by: eman at November 01, 2009 12:08 PM (ZzgoC)
So you would defend an Atheist display on public property?
Or would you merely tolerate it?
What is an atheist display???
Posted by: Lemmiwinks at November 01, 2009 12:10 PM (IqfKc)
Maybe it should be a sign that says 'No, it isn't.' Or maybe their symbol could be that red circle with the slash through it.
Posted by: nickless at November 01, 2009 12:10 PM (MMC8r)
"Whose fault is this really? I blame the Supreme Court for perpetuating such a ridiculous interpretation of the Establishment Clause."
SHUT UP!
SCOTUS explains...
Posted by: shoey at November 01, 2009 12:12 PM (n4TZg)
These fuckers are mildly to severely autistic.
Posted by: JB at November 01, 2009 12:13 PM (1OoPr)
Even if Christianity is true it is still subject to corruption and misuse.
No argument there. Nothing worse than a corrupt and ignorant Christian.
"The greatest single cause of atheism in the world today
Is Christians who acknowledge Jesus with their lips
Then walk out the door and deny him by their lifestyle.
That is what an unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable."
Posted by: Tweet at November 01, 2009 12:13 PM (f8+ox)
Posted by: Michael Newdow at November 01, 2009 12:14 PM (MMC8r)
You're dumb.
Posted by: The Prophet at November 01, 2009 05:02 PM (SUU19)
I am offended by your invocation of a religious figure. Please ban yourself before I am forced to take you to court.
Posted by: Mallamutt at November 01, 2009 12:16 PM (V9SYy)
It's kinda funny to think about. How does one crap on Christmas without looking like a miserable crank?
"It's NOT A Merry X-Mas!"
Posted by: Tweet at November 01, 2009 12:17 PM (f8+ox)
Posted by: eman at November 01, 2009 12:17 PM (ZzgoC)
By making something as flawed and frequently downright shitty as humanity the pinnacle of your possible universe, I think you kinda sell yourself short in a number of ways.
Banning all public Christmas traditions will not help this country.
No more than banning prayer from schools helped kids learn to read and write.
Banning things creates a vacuum. And the State will not allow a vacuum.
Posted by: sifty at November 01, 2009 12:17 PM (wr1Lf)
Posted by: eman at November 01, 2009 12:20 PM (ZzgoC)
Is the USA a Christian nation simply because most of its citizens are Christians?
What of those who are not Christians? Are they second class citizens?
Actually, the country is a religious nation mainly because of its history. The settlers of this country came here, for one reason (not the only) to escape religious persecution in another country. Additionally, most of the founding fathers were religious, and religious beliefs were included in our founding documents. Read the Constitution, Declartion of Independence, etc.
Most of our Presidents invoked a higher power when inspiring this nation to combat the troubles it faces.
Again, the Court has misconstrued the establishment clause. The test now is: does the display (or act, etc.) offend someone. If so, it is an establishment of religion.
However, the Court does have before the WWI Cross Memorial Case (sorry, can't think of the name of it off the top of my head). This may be chance for the Court to walk back some of its Establishment Clause excesses.
Posted by: Mallamutt at November 01, 2009 12:21 PM (V9SYy)
Posted by: sifty at November 01, 2009 12:21 PM (wr1Lf)
It's up to them to think of something.
Any specific examples?
Posted by: Lemmiwinks at November 01, 2009 12:22 PM (IqfKc)
Posted by: nickless at November 01, 2009 12:23 PM (MMC8r)
I find that all Speed Limit signs offend me as an areligious display!
They all must be removed immediately!!
Posted by: TXMarko at November 01, 2009 12:24 PM (4NNyu)
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 01, 2009 12:25 PM (XbF4q)
Posted by: rplat at November 01, 2009 12:25 PM (G1ArL)
Thou shalt not steal.
Honor your parents.
Do not bear false witness.
Thou shalt not covet your neighbor possessions.
I can completely understand why teaching any of these things in the slightest would be blasphemy to the government's worldview. At least the religion of government itself is allowed to promulgate.
Posted by: Al at November 01, 2009 12:25 PM (VtygY)
Posted by: CoolCzech at November 01, 2009 12:26 PM (QECjC)
Posted by: eman at November 01, 2009 12:27 PM (ZzgoC)
To substitute their religion (radical atheism has pretty much all the trappings of religion) for all others...kinda like the Borg.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 01, 2009 12:31 PM (XbF4q)
Posted by: Tweet at November 01, 2009 12:32 PM (f8+ox)
Can't say I disagree.
The "wall" between church and state (with its disciples' desire to abolish public faith) is a Trojan Horse to gain earthly control over the parts of the human mind that the government cannot tax.
What started out as a way to get rid of a tax to support a specific type of church is now used to push an agenda.
When they get everyone out of church and onto the sofa to watch commercials and do other stuff they can make money off of, they will have won.
In a Civics class a long time ago I was asked by the teacher:
" If you could ask one question of the Founding Fathers during the writing of the Constitution, what would it be?"
My answer:
" Could you please be a bit more specific?"
Posted by: sifty at November 01, 2009 12:33 PM (wr1Lf)
Posted by: Jesus at November 01, 2009 12:40 PM (MMC8r)
Firstly, don't judge Christ by his followers.
Secondly, as a Christian, I am delighted to see these incremental steps toward the return of authorized public Christian persecution. He said it would happen and, when it does, He will return.
Thirdly, anyone who fears Christians in power more than atheists in power, hasn't been paying attention to recent history.
Forthly, believe Him in your heart and confess Him with your mouth and you, too, can have eternal life.
Yes, it's that simple.
Maranatha!
Posted by: Jewbacca at November 01, 2009 12:41 PM (Vz1WE)
Jeff Bridges has only 478 Bronsons out of the possible 1000.
Posted by: sifty at November 01, 2009 12:50 PM (wr1Lf)
Posted by: The UN at November 01, 2009 12:51 PM (J+bl5)
Posted by: Tweet at November 01, 2009 12:51 PM (f8+ox)
Posted by: Publicserf at November 01, 2009 12:55 PM (J+bl5)
Posted by: fightobama at November 01, 2009 12:56 PM (6IV8T)
Truly no different than the food police, the anti-tobacco lobby, and people who bitch about alcohol. They're unable to feel joy or pleasure in life, so you shouldn't feel any, either.
I'd believe Annie Gaylor was something other than an anhedonic sociopath if she was fighting Obama's pro-Sharia "Muslim advisor" as hard as she was fighting plaster nativity scenes.
Posted by: HeatherRadish at November 01, 2009 12:59 PM (OkT2m)
Why? The Islamics are "a protected ethnic minority" and have a reputation for cutting your fucking head off or suicide-bombing you if you fuck with them. Fuck with Christians, they turn the other cheek. They whine.
#81, that is the result of tens of thousands of times that Christians have "turned the other cheek" and gone along with indulging our hateful and hostile neighbors who claim to worship the same god. The prayer call echoes where our church bells used to ring.
Personally Christianity does nothing for me, and I've pretty much given up on it. My personal faith is pretty much "hate the Islamics". Until the Church calls for the faithful to take up arms against the Muslim invader, they'll keep taking it in the ass.
Posted by: SGT Dan at November 01, 2009 01:08 PM (TtDnm)
Posted by: William Amos at November 01, 2009 01:13 PM (sj3rl)
Posted by: angryoldfatman at November 01, 2009 01:20 PM (ZZg4j)
The atheists are just liberals--marxists---who want to destroy actual civilization and the basic foundation of civilization, the family. People that just can't believe usually don't run around announcing they are atheists and certainly do not bring law suits to tear down nativity scenes.
My bro-in-law's family has "Jones-Day" instead of Christmas where they feast and exchange presents. If they wanted to put up a banner at a public park saying Happy Jones Day, I would have no inclination to BRING suit against the perpertrators of Jones Day. Idiots.
Posted by: dagny at November 01, 2009 01:27 PM (//9jP)
Posted by: dagny at November 01, 2009 01:29 PM (//9jP)
Do you think this is a bad outcome, Gabriel? I don't. Places of work should be about work and a facility that is supposed to be serving the citizens of a state or municipality should be particularly business-like. Certainly any decorations should be minimal and secular.
Even in the private sector, the amount of down-time that is experienced because of staff members distracting themselves with decorations and parties and whatnot at holiday time is getting to be excessive. The place to express your individual beliefs and tastes is outside of work.
Posted by: Y-not at November 01, 2009 01:34 PM (sey23)
Posted by: Chef Mojo at November 01, 2009 01:35 PM (NhsEM)
>This is a Christian nation.
tens of millions of your fellow Americans disagree
Hundreds of Millions of your fellow Americans do agree.
Posted by: Ministry of Fiction at November 01, 2009 01:37 PM (dRqp3)
Posted by: 29Victor at November 01, 2009 01:41 PM (AfPnb)
29 Is the USA a Christian nation simply because most of its citizens are Christians?
What of those who are not Christians? Are they second class citizens?
Yes. We live in a democratic society so the majority rules this bitch.
This is the same reason English is our national language...Capitalism is our system (although not for long) and football is the greatest sport on the planet.
If you do not like how we do business you can do either of two things:
1) Breed more voters for your particular demographic
2) Move...
Posted by: Ministry of Fiction at November 01, 2009 01:42 PM (dRqp3)
Posted by: eman at November 01, 2009 01:46 PM (ZzgoC)
Posted by: eman at November 01, 2009 01:48 PM (ZzgoC)
CIT Group just filed for chapter 11. Look for a blood letting on Wall Street tomorrow.
Thanks Barry.
Posted by: Dick_Nixon at November 01, 2009 01:50 PM (cxCkY)
Posted by: eman at November 01, 2009 04:50 PM (ZzgoC)
And? Whats your point supposed to be?
All thoughts are human inventions. Atheism is a human invention.
Is your sorrow a human invention? Is your Joy and your Love..or do they come from some other source with no reason to be there and with no evolutionary trail to follow?
Posted by: Iggey Schnetz at November 01, 2009 01:51 PM (MmpmX)
Look at it this way. What does it say about the strength of your faith if you're relying on government to express it for you?
It's not my faith I'm worried about.
I'm worried about the future of my country.
Posted by: Tweet at November 01, 2009 01:53 PM (f8+ox)
Posted by: fightobama at November 01, 2009 01:53 PM (6IV8T)
If you do not like how we do business you can do either of two three things:
1) Breed more voters for your particular demographic
2) Move...3) Don your suicide belt an blow your evil self away
Posted by: sTevo at November 01, 2009 01:55 PM (eA3tl)
Posted by: GregInSeattle at November 01, 2009 01:55 PM (B5cM9)
>I find the plans for the Coen brothers to cast Jeff Bridges as Rooster Cogburn in a remake of True Grit to be most disturbing and a possible sign of the Apocalypse.
I find the very idea of re-making True Grit to be profoundly disturbing and lacking in ideological purity. That was John Wayne's Academy Award-winning performance- LEAVE IT ALONE. This remake is uncalled for, ill-advised, divisive, racist, and is doomed to fail.
> By excluding anything religious from the "holiday display" didn't the state just make it rather atheist?
Kinda funny how that worked out, huh?
That is an excellent, excellent point. The state, endorsing atheism.
Posted by: Jones at November 01, 2009 01:56 PM (1cda8)
Posted by: GregInSeattle at November 01, 2009 01:56 PM (B5cM9)
Posted by: eman at November 01, 2009 01:56 PM (ZzgoC)
And the Present will have a Kwanzaa display in the White House. He is that fucking stupid.
Kwanzaa was created by Ron Karenga, a former felon:
In 1971, Karenga, Louis Smith, and Luz Maria Tamayo were convicted of felony assault and false imprisonment for assaulting and torturing over a two day period two women from the US Organization, Deborah Jones and Gail Davis An article in the Los Angeles Times described the testimony of one of the women: "Deborah Jones, who once was given the title of an African queen, said she and Gail Davis were whipped with an electrical cord and beaten with a karate baton after being ordered to remove their clothes. She testified that a hot soldering iron was placed in Miss Davis' mouth and placed against Miss Davis' face and that one of her own big toes was tightened in a vise. Karenga, head of US, also put detergent and running hoses in their mouths, she said.
Posted by: Jones at November 01, 2009 02:02 PM (1cda8)
Posted by: GregInSeattle at November 01, 2009 02:03 PM (B5cM9)
Posted by: eman at November 01, 2009 02:03 PM (ZzgoC)
Posted by: Jones at November 01, 2009 02:07 PM (1cda8)
I think it's sarcasm, eman. But not sure. I hope it's sarcasm because I'd like to think all our regular morons understand this is exactly the opposite of what the Founders intended:
We live in a democratic society so the majority rules this bitch.
Posted by: Tweet at November 01, 2009 02:07 PM (f8+ox)
Posted by: GregInSeattle at November 01, 2009 02:09 PM (B5cM9)
In the Name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful,
Greetings number nine. I bid you good tidings from Allah. I am heartened to hear that you respect our religion as you should. We have just surpassed Christianity and Allah is spreading his Truth over all the world, including America. Your experts say that Europe will be under Sharia Law in fifty years or less, and America will also be under Sharia Law in less than a hundred. Your efforts on our behalf are greatly appreciated, and we shall have a special place for you and your descendants under Dhimmitude. You understand, of course, that first generation Dhimmis cannot be true Muslims, and must remain slaves, but by the third generation your children may become full Muslims and entitled to all the freedoms and protection found in Allah's Holy Word: The Qur'an.
Sincerly yours, and always Allah's Slave,
7HEAVENS
(Shura 2:29)
Posted by: 7HEAVENS at November 01, 2009 02:12 PM (OY8tj)
Posted by: eman at November 01, 2009 02:13 PM (ZzgoC)
Posted by: eman at November 01, 2009 02:15 PM (ZzgoC)
Posted by: fluffy at November 01, 2009 02:18 PM (4Kl5M)
Posted by: Chef Mojo at November 01, 2009 02:21 PM (NhsEM)
Posted by: GregInSeattle at November 01, 2009 02:24 PM (B5cM9)
Posted by: eman at November 01, 2009 02:25 PM (ZzgoC)
No, you misunderstand me.
It's not that my govt should display Christmas decorations, it's that my govt should not ban Christmas decorations from being displayed on public property.
In other words, if my local city hall doesn't put up anything designating the Christian holiday, it wouldn't bother me. But if my local city hall makes a law banning Christmas decorations from the property, it would disturb me because it would reflect on the wrong direction my local government is heading.
Posted by: Dodo Scooz at November 01, 2009 02:32 PM (f8+ox)
In the Name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful,
Greetings number one hundred and twelve: I bid you too good tidings from Allah. Allah has blessed true Muslims and all their animals. Sura 109:1-6 says:
Say (O Muhammad): "O disbelievers! I do not worship that whom you worship, nor will you worship that whom I worship. I will never worship those (deities) whom you worship, nor will you ever worship (Allah) whom I worship, to you be your religion, and to me my religion (Islam).
The truth is mirrored in your own laws, the truth of tolerance and peace as taught by The Holy Prophet Muhammed, the Truth of Allah.
7HEAVENS
(Sura 2:29)
Posted by: 7HEAVENS at November 01, 2009 02:33 PM (OY8tj)
Posted by: Chef Mojo at November 01, 2009 02:35 PM (NhsEM)
Why should private individuals be allowed to decorate a public building?
Honestly, is it a good idea to have people not affiliated with the management, operations, and use of the building putting up displays? Simply from the standpoint of insurance liability, it seems unwise. Add onto that the post-9/11 climate of potential terror attacks and the security that that necessitates... it just seems to be an expense and problem we don't need.
The government has to be involved in whatever is displayed on government property. It has to pay for the electricity, deal with the maintenance burden, ensure the occupants' (and public's) safety, etc.
Posted by: Y-not at November 01, 2009 02:37 PM (sey23)
Posted by: The Prophet at November 01, 2009 02:38 PM (SUU19)
Posted by: 25 or six two four at November 01, 2009 02:39 PM (SY5ST)
Posted by: Y-not at November 01, 2009 02:40 PM (sey23)
Posted by: Ben at November 01, 2009 02:43 PM (bftbi)
Posted by: Ben at November 01, 2009 02:44 PM (bftbi)
I'm thinking Billy Bob Thornton as Rooster, Larry the cable guy as La Boeuf, Miley Cyrus as Mattie, Chris Walken as Ned Pepper, Kanye West as Moon, and Steve Buscemi as Tom Chaney. And change it from a western to a outlaw motorcycle drive-in flick with plenty of T and A.
Posted by: Kyle Canyon at November 01, 2009 02:44 PM (Oxen1)
That being said, from a legal perspective, this does prohibit the free exercise of religion. Putting up a display doesn't establish a religion.
Posted by: Mrs. Peel at November 01, 2009 02:46 PM (9xiOC)
Posted by: eman at November 01, 2009 02:46 PM (ZzgoC)
Why should private individuals be allowed to decorate a public building?
You mean taxpayers having the right to property they pay for? Hmmm, i don't know.
As for your other points, did you notice that your reasons are stemmed from fear of tort damages and irritating terrorist?
Posted by: Tweet at November 01, 2009 02:46 PM (f8+ox)
Posted by: Crusty at November 01, 2009 02:48 PM (qzgbP)
when you strip away the source of our rights, it's only a matter of time before those rights themselves are stripped away.
(somebody smarter than me thought of that)
C.S. Lewis?
Posted by: shoey at November 01, 2009 02:52 PM (RxUMK)
Posted by: Crusty at November 01, 2009 02:54 PM (qzgbP)
Ahh...so you have met Christine Gregoire then?
Washington state is a lost cause and has been for years and years....any sane people should flee while they still can.
Posted by: christmasghost at November 01, 2009 03:00 PM (aUut1)
In the Name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful,
Greetings to you, eman, #128:
When nothing is in display, their beliefs are highlighted.
You are exactly right, and you shall find in this vacuum created by your law and and your lawyers that the Truth of Allah's Messenger shall fill it completely and you shall all rejoice under the Peace and Justice of of Allah's Messenger, Muhammed.
(Sura 2:29)
Posted by: 7HEAVENS at November 01, 2009 03:11 PM (OY8tj)
Well. I got me a kool lil laptop, I get to watch, What Dad does to those goats is splendtackular! gooka gooka! My Mom, after trying to hide her black eyes, black and blue nose, she has decided to cover it all up! in a burka! wow!
come over to my way of worship. neandrathalls.
Posted by: 7venth heavan at November 01, 2009 03:14 PM (SY5ST)
Posted by: eman at November 01, 2009 03:16 PM (ZzgoC)
Posted by: GarandFan at November 01, 2009 03:18 PM (ZQBnQ)
In the Name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful,
eman: 136
Of course they will, just as they must do so today. The Islamic tradition of Hajib requires modesty for all. You can find Allah's Truth on Wikipedia under Hajib.
(Sura 2:29)
Posted by: 7HEAVENS at November 01, 2009 03:23 PM (OY8tj)
Posted by: Bill R. at November 01, 2009 03:30 PM (EhlQq)
Posted by: 'Nam Grunt at November 01, 2009 03:31 PM (9Pkrh)
Posted by: CoolCzech at November 01, 2009 03:33 PM (QECjC)
Posted by: 'Nam Grunt at November 01, 2009 03:37 PM (9Pkrh)
Posted by: nickless at November 01, 2009 03:38 PM (MMC8r)
Posted by: 'Nam Grunt at November 01, 2009 03:40 PM (9Pkrh)
In the Name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful,
Bill R. 139
Very clever argument, I am impressed. Many of your countrymen are ignorant of these facts. As it has been said: you know only the ending of the story, but to get at the truth you must start at the beginning.
PS CoolCzech Good - Very amusing, I'm sure it is a bit of both.
(Sura 2:29)
Posted by: 7HEAVENS at November 01, 2009 03:42 PM (OY8tj)
Posted by: Miss'80sBaby at November 01, 2009 03:44 PM (zmiSr)
Posted by: 'Nam Grunt at November 01, 2009 03:45 PM (9Pkrh)
@145,Posted by: 7HEAVENS at November 01, 2009 08:42 PM (OY8tj)
The truth? From a pervert who's favorite wife was a nine year old girl? FOAD!
Posted by: Bill R. at November 01, 2009 03:45 PM (EhlQq)
Posted by: Shannon at November 01, 2009 03:47 PM (niZOC)
Posted by: 'Nam Grunt at November 01, 2009 03:49 PM (9Pkrh)
Posted by: Ben at November 01, 2009 03:53 PM (bftbi)
Posted by: Miss'80sBaby at November 01, 2009 03:53 PM (zmiSr)
Posted by: Ben at November 01, 2009 03:54 PM (bftbi)
They never do for fascists like that.
It's funny how we've survived for over two centuries without this being an issue. Just goes to show how far the Constitution, and our society, has been eroded. Call me a Derbyshirist, but the contemporary rebirth of conservatism expressed by the Tea Parties feels more like the last gasp of sanity to me. The future will probably look more like The Turner Diaries than Atlas Shrugged, or, even more likely, Brave New World.
Posted by: 5th Level Fighter at November 01, 2009 03:54 PM (ck6ZN)
Posted by: 'Nam Grunt at November 01, 2009 03:59 PM (9Pkrh)
Posted by: Ben at November 01, 2009 08:54 PM (bftbi)
No, that's CIT, not the same company.
Posted by: Bill R. at November 01, 2009 04:00 PM (EhlQq)
Posted by: Bill R. at November 01, 2009 04:01 PM (EhlQq)
Posted by: NotaMolly at November 01, 2009 04:01 PM (7K11q)
Posted by: 'Nam Grunt at November 01, 2009 04:03 PM (9Pkrh)
Posted by: Kunta Kinka at November 01, 2009 04:05 PM (SY5ST)
Posted by: JavaJoe at November 01, 2009 04:07 PM (Am6n/)
Maybe Obama can find a way to recharge and crash through to even deeper depths.
Posted by: JavaJoe at November 01, 2009 04:09 PM (Am6n/)
I'm sorry, but Christians need to give up on using government to help protect or promote any type of morality. There was a time when the government served as a protector of basic Christian values, but those days are long gone.
The government destroys and corrupts everything it touches - and that INCLUDES religion.
Christian need to engage in a strategic RETREAT from political life. They also need to remove themselves (and their children) from this poisionous culture and start simply living the gospel.
Love your enemies. Feed the poor. Love God. Show others the beauty of Christ by living in spiritual peace. THEN, Reach out to those who've been emotionally and spiritually gutted by our disgusting popular culture -
Posted by: stickety at November 01, 2009 04:10 PM (Jg5C9)
Posted by: 'Nam Grunt at November 01, 2009 04:14 PM (9Pkrh)
Posted by: Christopher Taylor at November 01, 2009 04:15 PM (PQY7w)
But now I live back in my home state of California in Humboldt county...far north...so we don't get too many San Francisco "values" up here.
Instead of atheists, we seem to have more of the intolerant "Christians" that are as determined ,if not more determined than the atheists, to ruin every holiday for kids and everyone else....
Before any of you get too worked up about good old fashioned Christian values remember that the puritans outlawed Christmas celebrations.
Intolerance is intolerance. Shouldn't we be more about people's basic core values?
After all, it is pretty hard to argue out of one side of your mouth that it's not about party, it's about conservatism, right? And then forget all about that when it comes to a specific religion.
Aren't good people, good people? And if someone doesn't have the same beliefs as Christianity does ...the down side for you is what exactly?
Aren't they the ones "going to hell"?
Posted by: christmasghost at November 01, 2009 04:30 PM (aUut1)
That thud you heard was the bottom.
Maybe Obama can find a way to recharge and crash through to even deeper depths.
You can bet that he'll keep digging us deeper in the hole. That's his goal.
Posted by: Rewrite! at November 01, 2009 04:31 PM (UaSIe)
"Annie Laurie Gaylor, co-president of the Wisconsin-based Freedom From Religion Foundation, said she was pleased about the new rules but added that they don't go far enough"
Just how far does she want it to go? I know, scary question.
Posted by: katya at November 01, 2009 04:34 PM (RbvF+)
Posted by: Allahpundit at November 01, 2009 04:35 PM (JTYDy)
That thud you heard was the bottom.
Maybe Obama can find a way to recharge and crash through to even deeper depths.
I'm wondering how long he can claim the economy is improving and jobs are being saved/created before people stop listening to him.
Posted by: katya at November 01, 2009 04:36 PM (RbvF+)
Posted by: christmasghost at November 01, 2009 04:36 PM (aUut1)
Posted by: Allahpundit at November 01, 2009 04:38 PM (JTYDy)
Are you one of those annoying atheists that can't keep their non religion/religion to themselves? If not I don't have a problem with you Mr. Tongue in cheek.LOL.
Posted by: christmasghost at November 01, 2009 04:38 PM (aUut1)
Posted by: Allahpundit at November 01, 2009 04:39 PM (JTYDy)
You basically pulled a Newt in your "Dede's Farewell" post. Guess what, Ace? You're not a tough guy, you're a moronic pussy. This blog is off my bookmarks (except I may post this in a couple of other threads first).
Loyal Ex-Reader,
Dave
Posted by: Dave G. at November 01, 2009 04:40 PM (hNH5b)
Have you petitioned to ruin any perfectly good holidays lately?
Posted by: christmasghost at November 01, 2009 04:41 PM (aUut1)
I know, scary question.
And I think you know the answer, katya.
Some of these are so sick and really do believe they'd be doing society a service by doing away with all religious beliefs.
Posted by: Tweet Bunker at November 01, 2009 04:41 PM (Szkjn)
Wow..did you see Farve light it up today in Green Bay?
I, as an atheist, think he is still amazing at 40
Posted by: Allahpundit at November 01, 2009 04:44 PM (JTYDy)
Posted by: Tweet Bunker at November 01, 2009 04:44 PM (Szkjn)
Posted by: Charles at November 01, 2009 04:44 PM (UaSIe)
we seem to have more of the intolerant "Christians" that are as determined ,if not more determined than the atheists, to ruin every holiday for kids and everyone else....
Are they, by chance, a branch off the Westborough Baptist Church?
Posted by: katya at November 01, 2009 04:44 PM (RbvF+)
Posted by: sTevo at November 01, 2009 04:46 PM (eA3tl)
Posted by: CoolCzech at November 01, 2009 04:47 PM (QECjC)
Some of these are so sick and really do believe they'd be doing society a service by doing away with all religious beliefs.
Except, for some reason, Islam. I just don't get that. Especially the way they treat their women. Nobody can possibly be that deluded.
Posted by: katya at November 01, 2009 04:48 PM (RbvF+)
Are they, by chance, a branch off the Westborough Baptist Church?
More like a branch of the Pharisees.
Posted by: Rewrite! at November 01, 2009 04:48 PM (UaSIe)
I am and have always been a proud Republican. It is my hope that with my actions today, my party will emerge stronger ..
...that's why I am endorsing the uber-left Democrat candidate for NY 23rd
Posted by: DeDe Skoozifoozi at November 01, 2009 04:51 PM (JTYDy)
Hits.
Traffic is AP's God.
Posted by: nickless at November 01, 2009 04:52 PM (MMC8r)
Maybe not Westborough but certainly Baptist.
Most of us evangelicals think those folks are very scary and not a little crazy and really wish the media would stop putting us all in the same category. We do not claim them.
Posted by: katya at November 01, 2009 04:52 PM (RbvF+)
Lutherans...the ever dreaded Missouri synod....in other words one step away from handling snakes in the church.
Posted by: christmasghost at November 01, 2009 04:53 PM (aUut1)
Posted by: christmasghost at November 01, 2009 04:55 PM (aUut1)
Posted by: christmasghost at November 01, 2009 04:57 PM (aUut1)
Katya @184...they don't touch Islam because they are afraid to. It's that simple...and that hypocritical.
They sully the name of femnist. And that's saying something.
Posted by: katya at November 01, 2009 04:58 PM (RbvF+)
I thought about that, too, katya, and the conclusion I came to was that the strategy was to divide and conquer.
The only reason the Left buddies up to muslims is 1) muslims are useful in being the mortal enemies of the Jews, and 2) they use forcing Islam onto Western culture as another way of chipping away at our values, under the farce of multiculturalism.
But don't worry, in time the Left's ultimate plan is indeed do away with all religious beliefs. Let's face it, when the Left is in control of all the developed countries and all the nuclear arsenals, it will be easy for them to wipe out the muslims. They wouldn't even hesitate; their leftist utopia has no room for religious barbarians, especially muslims.
Posted by: Tweet Bunker at November 01, 2009 04:59 PM (Szkjn)
In the Name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful,
Greetings to you, Bill R. #128:
When nothing is in display, their beliefs are highlighted.
You are exactly right, and I wish the truth didn't bother you so much.But if you and your people really feel that way, as Al Sharpton put it: Why can't you stop us?
I bid you all good night as I must retire to pray to Allah. I shall mention all of you in my prayers.
7HEAVENS
(Sura 2:29)
Posted by: 7HEAVENS at November 01, 2009 04:59 PM (OY8tj)
Posted by: sTevo at November 01, 2009 04:59 PM (eA3tl)
Hey, has anyone else had a really repulsive and horrifying experience with Lutherans? I knew Baptists were wacky...but Lutherans?
Posted by: christmasghost at November 01, 2009 05:00 PM (aUut1)
Posted by: christmasghost at November 01, 2009 05:01 PM (aUut1)
Posted by: society strata lowest the at November 01, 2009 05:02 PM (SY5ST)
Religious right would rather have Obama than Romney because Romney is a Mormon. I am done with the religious right.
I consider myself the religius right. And I would rather have Romney. We can't all be lumped together. Just as all athiests can't be.
Posted by: katya at November 01, 2009 05:04 PM (RbvF+)
Yep...still an atheist..
..in case anyone cares
Posted by: Allahpundit at November 01, 2009 09:39 PM (JTYDy)
nobody gives a fuck except you.
Posted by: Jones at November 01, 2009 05:07 PM (1cda8)
You know nothing of my work.
Posted by: broad brush at November 01, 2009 05:14 PM (PD1tk)
Posted by: Christopher Taylor at November 01, 2009 05:20 PM (PQY7w)
Posted by: sTevo at November 01, 2009 05:21 PM (eA3tl)
I tend to agree with the exceptions of people who were brought up in other countries.....in which case it's none of their business anyway is it? It's bad manners to move into someone else's house [country] and start telling them how to arrange the furniture. If you hate it the way it is....what are you doing here/ there?
The puritans outlawed Christmas because it was a "pagan holiday". Ditto for Easter etc.....the Catholics couldn't get the pagans to give up their religion so they just glommed on another name and made those holidays theirs.
Just like there is a huge difference between republican and conservative...isn't there also a big difference between being a member of a certain religious group and being a very good moral person?
Posted by: christmasghost at November 01, 2009 05:25 PM (aUut1)
Toby, I finally had to look up those lyrics.
♫A tear of petrol is in your eye ...♫
wow, seriously, dude? Not exactly mainstream music!
Posted by: Tweet Bunker at November 01, 2009 05:26 PM (Szkjn)
You know nothing of my work.
Heh. People posting in this thread don't know Jack about atheists but that hasn't stopped them, either.
Posted by: barbelle at November 01, 2009 05:26 PM (qF8q3)
Posted by: broad brush at November 01, 2009 05:28 PM (PD1tk)
Posted by: toby928 at November 01, 2009 05:29 PM (PD1tk)
It's been years since I even thought about Grace Jones, though. So that was cool.
Wasn't she hooked up with Sylvester Stallone, at one time?
Posted by: Tweet Bunker at November 01, 2009 05:31 PM (Szkjn)
Posted by: Tweet Bunker at November 01, 2009 05:32 PM (Szkjn)
Posted by: toby928 at November 01, 2009 05:33 PM (PD1tk)
Wait.
Maybe I'm thinking of Mark Gastineau.
Yeah, wasn't Stallone banging Mark Gastineau, at one time?
Posted by: Tweet Bunker at November 01, 2009 05:33 PM (Szkjn)
Posted by: toby928 at November 01, 2009 05:35 PM (PD1tk)
Posted by: Tweet Bunker at November 01, 2009 05:36 PM (Szkjn)
Posted by: toby928 at November 01, 2009 05:37 PM (PD1tk)
♫ All around my hat, I will wear the green ribbon,
all around my hat, for six months annnnd a day,
and if any one should ask ye, the reason why I wearing it
its all for my true love, whose far far away ♫
Posted by: toby928 at November 01, 2009 05:39 PM (PD1tk)
just checked out Hawkwind
there's a dude playing a flute and you can't even hear it!
And a chick with a silver face who's really hot.
Posted by: Tweet Bunker at November 01, 2009 05:42 PM (Szkjn)
Posted by: toby928 at November 01, 2009 05:45 PM (PD1tk)
Posted by: toby928 at November 01, 2009 05:49 PM (PD1tk)
stickety,
If Christians retreat from political life then there will be no one in charge but the nihilists, atheists, secular Jews and non-practicing Catholics. Oh, and Muslims.
Personally, I think this is not the recipe for a good outcome.
Posted by: Miss Marple at November 01, 2009 05:50 PM (UQado)
Posted by: Tweet Bunker at November 01, 2009 05:51 PM (Szkjn)
Posted by: Uncle Pinky at November 01, 2009 05:53 PM (X8Hld)
The cost of NOT allowing such things is worse and lasts all year. Lower morale, reduced productivity because of disgruntled employees, workplace sabotage, etc.
The key thing to understanding people is -- they're not robots.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 01, 2009 06:01 PM (105dW)
Posted by: christmasghost at November 01, 2009 06:02 PM (aUut1)
The problem becomes when they apply it to individuals and their personal work spaces. Yeah, you want to avoid huge distractions, but give it time and we get situations like in Britain where you can't even put a little desk-corner tree up, wear a visible cross, or eat during Ramadan (heh at the big Imams in Britain even coming out against how dumb that one was), because it might offend people of other faiths.
Think it can't happen here? There's already been cases of a woman, in Florida I think, that had an American flag in her office and was fired for it because it offended a foreign-born office manager. If they can do it over the flag, they sure as hell can do it for "ZOMG CHRISTOFACIST DISPLAY!" Hooray for offense-mongers.
Posted by: Ranba Ral at November 01, 2009 06:05 PM (atxR0)
Posted by: katya at November 01, 2009 06:22 PM (RbvF+)
Posted by: chemjeff at November 01, 2009 06:29 PM (bnZcZ)
Posted by: katya at November 01, 2009 06:38 PM (RbvF+)
the Unitarians scare me the most, what a truly vicious bunch of God-Nazi's they are.
(but only the Reformed ones, not the Orthodox)
Posted by: shoey at November 01, 2009 06:40 PM (RxUMK)
What in the world in a Reformed Unitarian?
Don't the Unitarians believe that whatever you believe is all good?
Posted by: katya at November 01, 2009 06:45 PM (RbvF+)
I don't think anyone is talking about one religion running the country. At least, I am not. My own faith (Catholic) doesn't have a real swell record in doing that in Europe.
What works best is if people of faith participate and stand up for what they think is right in the public arena. It is my job as a participant to convince you of the merit of my beliefs. You should attempt to convince me of yours.
For example, I believe the pro-life position is the correct one. I defend it at every opportunity. I implore my representatives to take that position, and I vote for those candidates who look like they will move that position along. I believe that abortion and euthanasia reduce the dignity of all human life, and that when this country finally realizes this we will all be the better for it.
I do NOT, however, want Catholic priests holding office, nor I do I want canon law enforced nationally. Church laws on marriage, sexual conduct, and other matters are strictly for those who are members of my faith. I think people would be happier as Christians and may try to persuade them, but a faith enforced by law is really no faith.
Regarding Christmas trees, nativities, etc. the whole thing is silly. If atheists don't want to celebrate Christmas, then let them work on December 25 while the rest of us are celebrating. Then they can take January 14 or something as their private non-holy holiday. And they can refuse those tainted Christmas bonuses.
Oh, they can also skip the company party, refuse any gifts, and generally go around being happy in their misery.
I live just south of Indianapolis, where Monument Circle has lights strung from it and candy canes and lights and carol singers for the whole month of December.
The nativity scene which sat in one section of the monument has been moved across the street to Christ Church Cathedral, where everyone can still see it and no one can do a darn thing about it. We like it that way, here in Indiana.
Posted by: Miss Marple at November 01, 2009 06:47 PM (UQado)
#231
that's kinda my point, Unitarians were the most inoffensive group of christians i could think of and no i have no idea if there are Reformed ones or not.
Posted by: shoey at November 01, 2009 06:50 PM (RxUMK)
Posted by: shoey at November 01, 2009 06:50 PM (RxUMK)
Posted by: shoey at November 01, 2009 06:52 PM (RxUMK)
I think that's where it goes off the rails for a lot of people. I don't believe it is my job or yours or anyone's to convince other people what the 'right faith' is.
This I think is a huge sticking point, and really pretty offensive for many, including myself. Not your statement, but the fact that some people just will get in your face and not shut the hell up about their religion.
Operative word "their".
Or if people feel they must convince others of the validity of their particular faith over others...then perhaps setting a good example is the best way. No need to blab about it....
Have you even been buttonholed by a self righteous and not very smart [but I repeat myself] Lutheran?
Yeah...not pleasant....it leaves a mark.
Posted by: christmasghost at November 01, 2009 06:58 PM (aUut1)
As my very devout neighbor said so wisely "if it weren't for Christians, everyone would be one."
Posted by: christmasghost at November 01, 2009 07:01 PM (aUut1)
Posted by: Absorba the Greek (rdb) at November 01, 2009 07:06 PM (Tsag4)
Posted by: angryoldfatman at November 01, 2009 07:07 PM (ZZg4j)
I am not talking about convincing you to become a Catholic. I am talking about convincing you about a law I want passed. Evangelization is not proper in the work place, although I would hope that my actions and cheerfulness would prompt you to investigate my faith on your own.
But there are laws proposed which I believe are wrong. As a responsible citizen and Catholic, I will speak out about those laws. And I would expect you to do so from your point of view, as well.
I am a convert, late in life. Not one priest ever knocked on my door, and no Catholic buttonholed me at work to give me a tract. I came to the faith through reading, watching Mother Angelica's show, listening to various priests on EWTN, and observation of the Holy Father.
I am quite happy, but I also know that others have their own way to God. And some don't believe, for which I am sorry. But I wouldn't want church law in this country, mine or anyone else's. That is not good for the country nor for the church.
Posted by: Miss Marple at November 01, 2009 07:09 PM (UQado)
Posted by: katya at November 01, 2009 07:12 PM (RbvF+)
Well, my husband is already a catholic as are our sons.Well, baptized that way anyway.....but I am a firm believer in them finding their own way.
I see what you were saying...sorry I misunderstood you, yes of course I feel that way too. Abortion, assisted suicide ....letting murderers get away with, well...murder....all of these things are wrong. Wrong from any point of view....from a human point of view.
And yes, setting the example is so important. For instance I was taught by my grandmother that it wasn't right to burden others with your bad mood, because as she said you don't know what other burdens they already have and you don't want to be the person that just pushes them over the edge.
So...I am practically Pollyanna....I know, I know hard for all of you to believe.heh.
Posted by: christmasghost at November 01, 2009 07:38 PM (aUut1)
I agree with Wretchard at Belmont Club: there are already enough people out there who want to kill and enslave you: why agree with them that there is nothing special or sacred about human beings and we're just bags of chemicals? Talk about giving your enemies ammo.
Demystify the universe and loudly insist that we are not children of God. Don't be surprised if the government takes you at your word someday and decides you're a burden to the state and better off dead, no matter what your wishes might be.
Posted by: Donna V. at November 01, 2009 08:16 PM (zPhxh)
Posted by: chrisbg99 at November 02, 2009 01:34 AM (y067p)
Posted by: ms. docweasel at November 02, 2009 02:01 AM (kgwdA)
no, not the Atheists- the politicians! And gee, I'd pay to get a picture of our governor with a display of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, having to keep a straight face. The blandness of an officially sanctioned 'Holiday Tree' makes a mockery of Christmas, anyhow- let's make them live the diversity they preach. It isn't so pretty close up...
Posted by: Will at November 02, 2009 10:49 AM (iydca)
If government were impoverished and weak, as God intended, we wouldn't care how they decorated the cardboard boxes they would govern us from. This is a symptom of statism, where we look up to the government rather than down as the Founders intended.
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