1 I think you are wrong. NRO should be able to take some heat.

2 I think you are wrong.  If your friends won't tell you you have a booger in your nose, what good are they?

3 Heat as in rebuttal and counter-argument, or heat as in ragging on people's weight?

4 You're wrong.

If we don't criticize NRO (from the right) who will?

5 I think you're wrong. It's not that they disagree, it's the way they disagree. They need to be taken down a peg or two.

6 Fine with me, it's not like it's a real issue for me because I don't really think there is anything wrong fundamentally with NRO. It's mostly timing and language. I do like reading NRO quite a bit.

But it was fun. Can we have a flame war over Excitable Andi where each post must use the term cocksucker, even the "positive" posts?

7 I did not read the thread, but I think you are right.

8 Again, a counter-criticism thread would be fine, but a flame war specifically invites personal attacks, which I don't see advancing much of anything.

9 Man, you are getting as soft as Hot Air. 

10 I think you're wrong, Ace.  Most of it was valid criticism dressed up on AOSHQ-style rhetoric.  Nothing more.

11

Yep, wrong.  That thing the Brookhiser asshole wrote perhaps deserves a flame thread of its very own.

He thinks "we" need a new base because "we" weren't already energized by the war?

Fuck you, cocksucker.  I'm plenty energized because my husband is over there, thank you very much.  But his pick has brought folks like PA off the fence, which will help keep Obama out of the White House.

And his comments about the baby and gun ... couldn't be more offensive if he'd tried.

 

12 Ace, then limit your sanctions to those types of comments and don't kill the whole thread. I find your lack of faith disturbing.

13

Oh no ace, you're completely right.  Letting out some steam bashing out-of-touch GOP elites is a terrible idea.  I mean, it's not like we're against elitism or anything and would never accuse Obama of that.  Gosh forbid we should be consistent in regard to Republicans.  Absolutely horrible idea.  Lets kiss NROs ass instead, in case you ever manage to wheedle a link out of them.

 

14 How does their "dissent" after the vp has been selected do anything but undermine hers and McCain's chances of winning?  That's not dissent -- it's just being a spoiler.  Yet, we are told we are the ones that have to get over it. 

15 Fascist!!!

16 I'm 100% with you, Ace!  You're my hero!  You're aces!  *giggle*

17

You're not wrong at all, brotha.  Just post that McCain donation thread again, and give us the deadline for donations.

I just donated "x amount" and bought another $75.00 in McCain gear.  I got mugs, t-shirts, yard signs, mugs, bumper stickers and mugs.  Did I mention mugs?

And I named you in the "referred by" slot.

You da' man!

18 I was still hoping to get somewhere with that argument, but it's cool.

19 Okay, I started a rebuttal thread.

20

Do what you have to, Ace, but my 2 cents is that they need a good thorough calibration over there.

They are going wobbly, and as some posters have pointed out, their hail-fellow-well-met attitude towards some of our swarmiest opponents on the left is, too put it as politely as possible, unfortunate.

21 Nahh, go ahead and close it.  I got it off my chest.  I still don't think their support of the AP during the Jamil Hussein nor their defenses of the TNR during the Beachamp affair nor their attacks on Palin have been honest.  Good for their media careers maybe, but not honest.

22 The problem isn't that there's disagreement. It's that they have NO BALLS. It's the eagerness to embrace the credentialist snobbishness of the New Republic crowd. Pussies all.

23 Again, a counter-criticism thread would be fine, but a flame war specifically invites personal attacks, which I don't see advancing much of anything.

The lecturing tone of "you are too stupid to know what's good for you" is a personal attack by NRO on us.

24 I didn't get a chance to read more than the first few posts, so I don't know how bad it got.

But I have to admit that I'm pretty pissed off at them myself, though I think Goldberg is getting more heat than he deserves, he had enough caveats and took a light enough touch that I feel his position and concerns were reasonable, but others seemed downright malicious in mocking Palin's accomplishments.

So, I can't judge how bad that thread itself got, maybe it was over the top, but I -do- feel there definitely should be a venue for calling them out on some of their more assholish comments. I'm still pissed at them for doing the same thing to Fred back then. 

"I don't like piling on political allies just because they (honestly) disagree." loses a lot of weight when the whole complaint is that -that- is what they're doing to -us- (or rather, our preferred candidates).  But it seems like NRO can only get firmly behind two conservatives - Reagan and the Immaculate Haircut of Latter Day Saints.

Qwinn

25 It's not just about Palin (their defense of the Beauchamp thing was much more objectionable) but their reaction to her clinches it.

They think they're the gravitational center of the right no matter what they say or do, but it hasn't been so for decades.  Rush has kept up, but NRO is too deep inside the NY-Beltway black hole to do it themselves.

26 I will say Brookhiser's post on Palin was some very petty bullshit worthy of the King Cocksucker Andi.

27 I think it's beyond obvious that the conservative and libertarian Beltway intelligencia are more concerned about their jobs than actual reform if they can champion McCain for President and not Palin for VP.

So, yeah, I will impugn their motives...I can do so without calling them suckers of cock...though it's hard not to.

The only way I can stomach McCain as the leader of the Republican Party for the next 4-8 years is if there's a possibility of Palin leading it afterwards. These Beltway leeches need to know that.

28 Man! I had a Star Trek reference! That would have penetrated their shields! Sniffle!

29 You're definitely wrong, Ace.
Uh...  what are we talking about?

30 >>>How does their "dissent" after the vp has been selected do anything but undermine hers and McCain's chances of winning?  That's not dissent -- it's just being a spoiler.  Yet, we are told we are the ones that have to get over it.

If your idea of commentary is restricted only to statements that help the cause, then that's just advocacy and boosterism, isn't it?  Bush can't be criticized?  The Republican leadership couldn't be criticized for letting the Mark Foley situation fester until it took over the 2006 debates?

If you want to disagree, like I said, I started a rebuttal thread. But calling political allies who generally help the cause *Fat* hardly seems to help Palin or the Republicans either.

31

I'm with you on this one, brother.  What good comes from trashing the NR folks, when there's plenty of other more worthy outlets.

Palin is a big risk for McCain.  There's no doubt about it.  But if her supporters, including me, are right about her abilities and she performs as well as I think she will in the debates with old Biden, she'll make a lot of friends.  Including National Review.

Now give us some meat to satiate our Obama Blood Lust.

32 Also, you didn't just close it; you seem to have dropped it down the memory hole.  What good will that do?  Why not let people read it and decide for themselves, even if you choose to close it to further comments.

It wasn't that bad; deleting it just lets people think otherwise.

33 Many of us have had issues with some of the writings at NRO for a long time and this was the straw that broke the camels back. They have been tone deaf for years and the Republican party has payed dearly for it (these are some most widely read "spokesmen" for the party.) Sometimes scorn is deserved.

34 Please reconsider, Ace.  Those Washington dinner-party conservatives need to wake the fsck up and see what's going on at the grassroots level of the same movement they claim to champion.

35 Yeah erasing the whole post is very Kos like, Ace.

36 The personal stuff about K-Lo (limited to one post, if I remember correctly) was wrong, and I objected to it.

The personal stuff about Brookhiser was well-deserved, and not all that extreme.  Calling someone a cocksucker for what he wrote is more polite than he deserved for that.

37 As flame wars go, it was not bad at all and funny. And the majority of the comments were legitimate. But, what the hell do you care, right? The good gets tossed out because no one can stand the sight of a bunch of nancy boys crying because we don't kiss their ass.

38 >>>The lecturing tone of "you are too stupid to know what's good for you" is a personal attack by NRO on us.

"The lecturing tone" I saw (personally) only in one place -- Brookheiser's risible statement that Conservatives like Palin only because she "has a Downs baby and shoots an M-16." 

Unless there's more in that vein, I don't see how Goldberg or K-Lo deserve a personal flaming.  That was Brookheiser's baby, and his baby alone.

Furthermore, if you guys are really saying that -- in a perfect world -- you wouldn't prefer it if Palin had more years as governor, and more foreign policy experience, then... I don't know.  I think you're being dishonest, either outwardly to help the cause or dishonest with yourself.

Palin's a good pick -- but not a perfect pick.  And you can't fault some people for placing more of an emphasis on the foreign policy/CINC quaifications side of things, given that we're at war.

39 To be fair, no one wants to watch nancy boys crying.

40 Let's approach it this way Ace.  You were in the middle of the Beachamp thing.  What do you think.    Did some of the folk at the NRO place their loyalty to their guild over their loyalty to the truth?  If they did does any one need that in a political ally?

41

Sand, meet vag. Vag, sand. Now that we've got the introductions out of the way, let's get down to some irritable scratchy business.

42

Well, ya gotta admit, this place never has personal attacks.  Hell no.  None at all.  I mean, it's all love and roses when it comes to Andrew Sullivan and other assorted hacks.  Can't put the gloves on now, old chap, that wouldn't be sporting.

A hack is a hack is a hack regardless of whose side they purport to be on.  Check out this Corner post. Out of touch much?

43 "To be fair, no one wants to watch nancy boys crying."

Speak for yourself!  Are they hairy?

44 Ace?

45 Also, I don't consider what Brookhiser said to be "honest disagreement".  Maybe he was trying to be humorously politically incorrect with his "Down's baby and an M-16" comment but he made himself look boorish, sexist and just an overall putz.

To be fair, it should be noted that his fellow NRO blogger Andy McCarthy called him on that.

46 I don't think we crossed the line here, Ace, except for the KLo thing. Are you trying to tell us there is one line for lefties and another one for righties.?

47 Someone posted about McCarthy's comment in The Thread That Will Not Be Mentioned, Gran. But you wouldn't know that because it's been disappeared.

48 Ace, do you think some of the folk over at the NRO placed guild before truth during the Beachamp affair?

49

Excuse me, you labled it...do you know what flaming is?

I repeat:

You know (beltway cino), it makes one wonder what with that snot filled nose and cleft pallet of yours, exactly how the devil you manage to keep breathing unassisted when you get yourself all worked up like this.

It boggles the mind, no?

At first i thought you had the IQ of an ice scraper, but then it occured to me that an ice scraper has 2 things you dont: Direction and purpose.

50

One fucking time I write something semi-serious and I end up the minority by a landslide.

Note to self:  Stick to shameless snark.

51 If your idea of commentary is restricted only to statements that help the cause, then that's just advocacy and boosterism, isn't it?  Bush can't be criticized?  The Republican leadership couldn't be criticized for letting the Mark Foley situation fester until it took over the 2006 debates?

I didn't call anyone fat. And Bush isn't running. I have no idea why you are dragging Foley into this. However, how does NRO constantly stating or implying that Palin is unqualified achieve anything worthwhile except to undermine her candidacy? You may want to slime my position as advocacy and boosterism but I see NRO and et. al., position as nothing but tripping over their own egos. 

52 not bad for someone who can't even spell their own name

53 grc, I'm just put off by your frankly Obamabot-ish attitude that Criticism of The (Alaskan) One shall not be tolerated.

54 >>>Excuse me, you labled it...do you know what flaming is?

I didn't label it or start it, Purple Avenger did.

55 Ace do you think some of the folk at the NRO placed guild before truth during the Beachamp dust up?

56 Well, shit, I came here late and am now wondering what I missed.  Did Ace nuke the post / thread, or just close the comments and leave it up?  If the latter, which one was it?

57 No, not really.  At the time I thought that from time to time, but in retrospect, I think they just disagreed.  I think they felt the case was not made strongly enough.  I think they felt it was a case of a lot of smoke but no clearly-established fire, and that therefore some people (like me) were wrong to treat it as a case of fire.

58 grc, I'm just put off by your frankly Obamabot-ish attitude that Criticism of The (Alaskan) One shall not be tolerated.

Maybe you should have defended them in the thread instead of deleting it.

59 Furthermore, if you guys are really saying that -- in a perfect world -- you wouldn't prefer it if Palin had more years as governor, and more foreign policy experience, then... I don't know.  I think you're being dishonest, either outwardly to help the cause or dishonest with yourself.

It's not a perfect world and the election is in two months and she has already been selected. Are you really saying that McCain should dump her? If you aren't, then you and NRO are just bein bitchy and being dishonest about it.So, what is it? Dum her? Or, two months of she is not qualified we are all going to die!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

60 I think the flame thread should have been closed because it was the weakest flame thread this site has ever spawned.  Honestly, it was more flaccid than Hugh Hefner during a Viagra shortage.

61 Here's the thing:

I can't actually close comments to a thread.  Basically I have no access to how the New Comment Thingy works.

So if I put it up again, I can say "Closed thread," but people will either not see that or just ignore me, and will comment again, and then I'll have to delete it again.

62 By all means let the NROnicks off the hook.  We want to keep this clean and articulate, after all.

63 Ace,
Regarding Beachamp, did that turn out to be the case?  Was the NRO right?  Was there all smoke no fire?

64 Down the memory hole, Ace?  Wow.

How very Colmsian of you.

http://tinyurl.com/5zj9bx

Fellow NewsBuster Warner Todd Huston caught Colmes scraping bottom at his Liberaland web site last night, as the lefty talker and Sean Hannity piñata asked "Did Palin Take Proper Pre-Natal Care?" in connection with Palin's pregnancy and childbirth earlier this year. Trig Palin was born with Down's Syndrome on April 18.

A whiff of sanity appears to have prevailed, as the entry is now empty...

65 grc, I'm just put off by your frankly Obamabot-ish attitude that Criticism of The (Alaskan) One shall not be tolerated.

So, Ace, are you demanding that McCain dump her? Or, are you just going to rag on her for the next 2 months? 

66 #47 runninrebel

Thanks, dude.  Good thing I bookmarked that thread so I can see what I mis... wait... umm...

67

Ace,

Purple said it was a FLAME WAR.

What, you ask for flame, we provide.  Don't ask, we won't.

FUCK'EM if they can't take a joke.

"City Boys."

68 Ace, NRO's criticism of Palin largely derives from elitism and Beltway snobbery. We owe them no slack at all. I think Palin is a great pick for a number of reasons, and one of them is she is nothing like some of the people at NRO. Heck, if you apply NRO judgement to Ronald Reagan, he would not be qualified to be President.

69 No, I like her.  On the other hand, I think it's a bit creepy that apparently no one is permitted to question her foreign policy and military-leadership credentials without being taken personally to task.

70 er, 'em in #67 would be the NRO guys, hope that's clear.

71 "Purple said it was a FLAME WAR.

What, you ask for flame, we provide.  Don't ask, we won't."

I'm not blaming anyone.  But I didn't start the thread and would have vetoed it if asked beforehand.

I am simply explaining my reasons for objecting to the thread.

72 OH MY GOD!  They finally got to Ace!  He's a pod person!!

73

Ace,

We have enough problems with the MSM.

I think we all believe it is time to circle the wagons and start killing Indians.  We have a team, NRO, stop whining about it.

74 I follow NRO, and they're discussing pros and cons, just like adults do. Yes, they're the punditry, but the response to Palin has been more excited and optimistic than the Frum-Ponnuru-Brookheiser contingent. And all have expressed hope that their fears are unfounded. I think you made the right move.

75 Jana:  Are you Ace's new cornhole partner?

76

Someone who also (honestly) disagrees with the Palin choice:

http://www.slate.com/id/2199029/?from=rss

 

77 I think it's a bit creepy that apparently no one is permitted to question her foreign policy and military-leadership credentials without being taken personally to task.

Straw man.

Only grc, was making that argument, ace. The rest of us were arguing just how out of touch and condescending (with obvious exceptions) NRO is toward everyday conservatives.

78 " Heck, if you apply NRO judgement to Ronald Reagan, he would not be qualified to be President. "

Not true in the least, and you know it.  As conservatives are fond of pointing out time and time again, Reagan gave speeches and wrote long essays on foreign policy (esp. communism and the cold war) for twenty or thirty years before he became president.

You know that, but you're conveniently forgetting it in a mad rush to declare all criticism of Palin wrongheaded.

We have no such evidence of long-term intellectual engagement with the issues from Palin.  It's perfectly fair to point that out and perfectly reasonable for someone to wish for a more-*obviously* qualified potential CINC.

Remember, for God's sakes, there is a (I hate to be ghoulish about this) 20% or higher chance Palin will become PResident, or at least be acting president should mccain require surgery or have a heart attack or the like.  It is silly, I maintain, to say that there can be *no questions whatsoever* as to whether she has adequate commander in chief seasoning.

Maybe she does.  Maybe she doesn't but will quickly acquire it.  But it's absurd to say no objection or critique can be made on this score.

79 Because I would argue that there was a fire during the Beachamp thing a damned big one and that the NRO was happy to ignore it.    (As they were the Jamil Hussein deal) And I would note they are always happy to err ( and err extra special big on the side of the MSM)  if they are going to cry every time that's pointed out maybe they should start actually doing their jobs and investigating things like the TNR before they pronounce the rest of us mouth breathers.  Likewise maybe they should have looked at what Palin actually did in Alaska before they announced that she cheapend the vice presidence.  an argument they never had the courage to make against John Edwards.
I'm sorry, their honest dissent is always seems to wn them face time on Television and priase from the MSM.  I don' think that is unintentional at all.  When Sullivan does it at least we have the courage to point it out.

80 I just can't figure out why anyone thinks the guys at NRO should have to justify themselves for offering opinions.

81 Ace of Spades HQ.
Hot VP Pick for McCain.
Folks fired up when she's criticized.
And there's a problem...where, exactly?

Christ, if I want serious political commentary I'll go to NRO.
Well, most of the time...

82 Ace, what are the rules? Are there different limits for righties and lefties? May we bitch slap Andrew Sullivan, but only tickle Jonah Goldberg?

83 Again, apart from Brookheiser, I don't see anyone accusing you of being mouth-breathers.

84 And by the way,

www.city-journal.org/2008/eon0830hm.html

Heather MacDonald made the same point as Brookhiser, but in a more reasoned, less condecending manner.

I still disagree with Ms. MacDonald, I believe Palin would still be on the short list if she wasn't a woman. The fact that she was and would thusly blunt Obama's convention bounce and might convince Hilary voters to stay home tipped the balance in her favor.

But, you see, when you treat me with respect and give me a reasoned argument, not "Down's baby and an M-16"...you will get respect in return. When you don't, you don't.

85

Furthermore, if you guys are really saying that -- in a perfect world -- you wouldn't prefer it if Palin had more years as governor, and more foreign policy experience, then... I don't know.  I think you're being dishonest, either outwardly to help the cause or dishonest with yourself.

Not really dude.

She's fresh. Congress is what now, 9% approval? POTUS at a walloping 30% or something?

All hail Joe Plumber. Most people are sick to all hell of the same people and the same way they allways do shit. A gamble is a good thing. A girl like Palin really is a outsider, and something fairly new, outside of her being a chick even. Perhaps it's the whole Alaska angle. But all those caterwauling about experience (for VP?? I really really don't get this concern. I'm bewildered.) are right - someone like her really doesn't get to be running for an office like this. It just doesn't happen. Not unless she's gone through a 15 year gauntlet of being in the senate, acclimating to the cocktail circuit, and being molded into another safe, boring, dry husk of a cog in a machine that everyone outside of it holds contempt for.

Justices 'grow into office'. As do politicians. No term limits on our punditry either. There's a reason conservatives are in favor of term limits. And seriously - if you've ever thought you wanted term limits, what the hell did you think they were gonna get us, if not a whole damn bushel of Palins fresh off the fishing boat with some new ideas and some impolitick gusto?

It's a refreshing risk I welcome and would welcome more often. With a dozen years "more experience" she'd either disqualify herself from such a position due to not playing well with others (others who, frankly, we don't like and want ourselves rid of) or she'd have succumb and be just another Hutchinson or Snow. You'll not see Coburn or DeMint on a VP ticket. They are loathed by their coworkers.

As for "foreign policy experience" WTF IS that? Who the hell does have that? Most of anyone doesn't have much if any of that. And what all really does it take? I'm much more concerned with domestic policy then foreign policy. I think most people are - but most GOP punditry seemingly aren't. Major, major, major disconnect.

I think that's the source of a lot of antipathy toward places like NRO or Weekly Standard. These guys have been their too long. It takes a rare sort to hang around for any length of time and not get caught up in the whole business of it, 'grow into' the punditry with a little experience, untill they can no longer see a forest behind all those trees.

To remain in the coctail circuit for any length of time and not succumb to it, I think, you have to maintain a healthy bit of contempt for it, and how it all works. Even if you work within it out of neccessity, you've got to look at the whole working with loathing, not internalize it.

Most everyone outside of washington holds it in contempt. Alot of these started off with that, but have it no longer.  NRO's thinking doesn't show it. That whole 'lifestyle loathing' business, is that it's a lifestyle everyone outside DC has contempt for to begin with, and that's what they show themselves to lack.

People allready blaim it for half the problems we have. Bunch of goddamn messes that are almost unfathomably stupid, mistakes no nitwit inexperienced septic-tank cleaner would have been daft enough to make yet these braniacs, so focused on tiny details and procedures and a certain (and damn near alien) way of thinking, plow right ahead into.

86 >>>Are there different limits for righties and lefties? May we bitch slap Andrew Sullivan, but only tickle Jonah Goldberg?

Um, yes.

Actually people rag on NRO all the time here.  I just don't like a focused thread specifically called a "Flame Thread" inviting these kind of attacks.

87 Again, did the NRO turn out to be right about Beachamp or were they ignoring what was a damned big story?

88

Good point Andrew ... and I can't figure out why we should have to justify ourselves for voicing our opinions on the writers at NRO.

I didn't ask them to  justify themselves.  I was just insulting them.

89 Can we still say 'fuck' here?

I mean, let's keep a little perspective.

90 Ace, was the NRO ignoring what turned out to be a big story as far as Beachamp goes?

91 Ace are we allowed to point out the NRO was ignorirng  a big story as far as Beachamp goes or is that out now, too?

92 Gosh Ace,
Was Beachamp wrong?  Can we go that far?

93 Hermit Dave:

Sorry, that comment was only aimed at grc, who seems to be suggesting that, now that Palin's the pick, there's no excuse for suggesting anything even slightly critical about her. I should have made that clear.

94 "grc, I'm just put off by your frankly Obamabot-ish attitude that Criticism of The (Alaskan) One shall not be tolerated."

"...I think it's a bit creepy that apparently no one is permitted to question her foreign policy and military-leadership credentials without being taken personally to task."

Ace, Obamabots refuse to see any of The One's shortcomings and think he's Jesus.  We Palinbots, if you must, simply think that too many of the conservative pundits are refusing to see any of Sarah's positives.  "Near suicidal" from Krauthammer?  My goodness!

95 Okay was there a Beachamp story Ace?  Did any of it happen? 

96 As conservatives are fond of pointing out time and time again, Reagan gave speeches and wrote long essays on foreign policy (esp. communism and the cold war) for twenty or thirty years before he became president. Would such essays penned by Palin help her with the current NRO dissenters? I doubt it. Their reaction to her is reflexive and visceral. They are insiders now. Also, no matter how they feel about Palin they at least would expect her to be able to take the heat. Why must the NRO be spared the heat?

97 Camille Paglia (did I spell that right? ) as part of the liberal inteligentsia (is that an oxymoron ?) has balls making making that comment  supporting Palin, but I think she's pretty much a dude.

98 Ace, was the NRO ignoring a big story in the Beachamp reports from Iraq?

99 Only grc, was making that argument, ace. The rest of us were arguing just how out of touch and condescending (with obvious exceptions) NRO is toward everyday conservatives.

No, the rest of them where calling  the NRO writers fat, stupid, and with little to no cocks.  Sorry that my argument that so called criticism only goes so far without it having the opposite effect and asking what were they really tryinng to achieve and if they wanted Palin dumbed, they should have the balls to say so was so threatening to you all. Now blow me.  

100 We all like the people at NR but they are what they are.....country club Republicans. Allah from Hot Air would fit in perfectly over there. While they are Republicans they aren't necessarily "Conservative."

101 Ace, did JPod post at the corner that he didn't believe that Beachamp's wife worked for the TNR?

102 Ace, was JPod right?

103 Again, apart from Brookheiser, I don't see anyone accusing you of being mouth-breathers.

Um, yeah, and aside from McCarthy nobody over there even noticed. Do you have any guess as to why?

104 Oooh, The Obvious is really yanking Ace's chain.
Get the popcorn - I'm crackin' open another bottle of Vodka...

105 #53 ace

Wow... do you really want to go with that comparison?

As fervent as the Palin support is here, I don't think it's fair to compare it to the truly blind and messianic movement behind BHO.  I don't have blinders on about this nomination.  It could still end in disaster and through no fault of McCain's or Palin's.  All it would take is something as minor as one perceived gaffe exploited by the MSM.

I actually got choked up when I heard the official word that Palin was the choice.  Why?  First of all, I was so happy that he didn't pick Joe Frackin' Lieberman.  But to pick someone with Palin's life story and background?  I couldn't believe it!  I recently moved between counties in my state and wasn't even going to bother re-registering to vote, I was so un-enthused about McCain.  Not only am I going to register, I donated to a campaign for the first time in a long time and I ordered a t-shirt and bumper stickers.

So, please Ace, don't compare us to the Obamatrons.  I can easily take criticism of Palin as long as it is honest and based in fact.  What I can't take is the snobbery of writers like Brookhiser and Krauthammer looking down their noses at us Joe Sixpacks and telling us "now, don't get too excited... we know more about the way the world works that you rubes do, and Palin isn't going to work out."

FTS.

106 Ace, during the Beachamp affair were members of the NRO taking phone calls from staff f the TNR and reporting the TNR's spin on Beachamp without bothering to ask staff at the TNR any follow up questions or investigate the TNR's claims at all?

107 '103 Again, apart from Brookheiser, I don't see anyone accusing you of being mouth-breathers.'

'Fraid I've got to second that motion.  Nobody but McCarthy seemed to get all that worked up about it - and I was seeing red upon first reading it.
Pretty obvious we were being dissed - but nobody on the home court saw fit to provide covering fire.
Perfect justification for a Flame War.

108 Palin has kind of a conervative working class ethic (in the tradition of Lincoln perhaps)  which is really refreshing. These NRO guys are intellectual snobs who never got thier hands dirty . Screw 'em .

109 Ace,

Do we only ask lefties to be factual and ethical in their reporting and their commentary?

110 Ace,

And do we only castigate lefties for making posts disappear?

111 The Obvious, to be fair, did JPod deny Beauchamp's wife worked at TNR, or did he simply respond skeptically to the initial evidence that she did (the wedding registry)?  JPod was wrong, and I agree that NRO didn't come out of that whole thing well, but you shouldn't overstate things.  The truth is bad enough.

112 I have to say I'm not terribly sanguine about he choice of Palin for VP. Her selection has energized parts of the base, but I don't think she's a net win of a choice in terms of votes, or leadership.

113 Gran at August 31, 2008 03:40 PM (mTWN+)

What Gran said. Palin was not my first choice but the other choices still left me with no desire to get involved this time around. I, too, was so happy that Liebermann wasn't picked (b/c he's not a fkn republican) and I was pissed off about having him rammed down my throat by the beltway pundits.

114 >>>As fervent as the Palin support is here, I don't think it's fair to compare it to the truly blind and messianic movement behind BHO.  I don't have blinders on about this nomination.

It's fair to say that the notion of fair criticism will be met with anger is kinda getting into Obama-ish territory.

Look, it was a FLAME THREAD, as many have pointed out, and invited that.  I'm not blaming anyone or scolding them as assholes for getting into the spirit of the thread.  But I think it was a bad idea, and would have negged it if asked.

If you haven't seen, the thread is reopened, with some ground rules.  I'd like to see the thread stay a bit more impersonal in its rebuttals, or at least not savagely personal.

Except for Brookheiser, who did in fact personally insult all conservatives as Pavlovian mouth-breathers.

115 No, the rest of them where calling  the NRO writers fat, stupid, and with little to no cocks.  Sorry that my argument that so called criticism only goes so far without it having the opposite effect and asking what were they really tryinng to achieve and if they wanted Palin dumbed, they should have the balls to say so was so threatening to you all. Now blow me.  

Oh dear. Look, here's what I objected to:

how does NRO constantly stating or implying that Palin is unqualified achieve anything worthwhile except to undermine her candidacy? You may want to slime my position as advocacy and boosterism but I see NRO and et. al., position as nothing but tripping over their own egos.

I'll concede that you may be right. Nonetheless, your suggestion that they get on board and go along without so much as a whimper, despite any objections they might have, strikes me as totalitarian and, as Ace mentioned, more in line with the "no dissent" rule that Obama's supporters try to enforce.

116 More en pointe, even the mildest explanation of my objections has led to bullying responses. So I'll just be quiet and vote my own way, without attempting to correct uncorrectable errors.

117 Ace,

Was the Beachamp affair really nothing at all?  And should we have ignored it completely because it made some folk at the NRO uncomfortable?  In hind sight should you have just shrugged your shoulders and said, yeah, that's just what little american killbots do?

118 >>>I have to say I'm not terribly sanguine about he choice of Palin for VP. Her selection has energized parts of the base, but I don't think she's a net win of a choice in terms of votes, or leadership.

I'm quoting SarahW here to make an obvious point.  Look, SarahW is as as strong a conservative as anyone (and one of the site's longest term readers).

Are we really now on board with the idea that SarahW's opinion shouldn't be offered, because it 'hurts the team'?

Palin *has* flaws, guys.  If you can't admit this then you're not being honest.  Honesty should never be off-limits.

119 On top of his sexist comment, Brookhiser compounded the issue by not doing a little research on firearm recognition before posting his offensive comments.

It's not an M-16, it's an M-4.

Bastard.

120 'Except for Brookheiser, who did in fact personally insult all conservatives as Pavlovian mouth-breathers.'

Oh yeah - it's on baby...

121 I'll concede that you may be right. Nonetheless, your suggestion that they get on board and go along without so much as a whimper, despite any objections they might have, strikes me as totalitarian and, as Ace mentioned, more in line with the "no dissent" rule that Obama's supporters try to enforce.

Oh, stop sucking Ace's dick. Totalitarian? Obamabot? You can both blow me. Again, if you and the FAT NRO elitist slobs want McCain to dump Palin have the balls to say it outright. Instead, you are just going to keep kicking her in the shins and saying who me?

122

Posted by: ace at August 31, 2008 03:20 PM (1WR4H):

"...no such evidence of long-term intellectual engagement with the issues..."

LOL...borders on elitism...

I'll take the person that has lived and produced (based on a philosophy) over the one who has sat around and wrote/thought about it. She lived the life, very naturally it appears. There is no greater proof of her core values.

 

 

123

I'd point out that alot of the NRO antipathy existed before the Palin pick. And the same might go for the Weekly Standard too.

I don't think we've got ourselves "palinbots" This isn't totally about Palin. NRO, whatever you may say about it, is full of political insiders. Palin is absolutely an outsider. Bunch of guys sipping Beefeaters start criticizing her for being "inexperienced", and you don't see why this triggers a fault line?

We've got  a segment of the conservative base that has been critically diseffected with just about everything for the last few years now. And they're convinced a lot of the guys in DC are either completely oblivious to it, or completely oblivious as to why. Some of that shows through this, bigtime.

124 Ace,

Palin has flaws.  Obviously the NRO doesn't?  And never did?

125

So, I think you've missed the point entirely if you're arguing (either way) over 'whether or not Palin can be criticized'.

She's an ignition source, but the flames are fueled by something else entirely.

126 Are we really now on board with the idea that SarahW's opinion shouldn't be offered, because it 'hurts the team'?

Let em quote her:  More en pointe, even the mildest explanation of my objections has led to bullying responses.

Where was she bullied? You certaintly had no problems bullying me, Ace.

127 >>>I'll take the person that has lived and produced (based on a philosophy) over the one who has sat around and wrote/thought about it. She lived the life, very naturally it appears. There is no greater proof of her core values.

So you'll take Palin over Reagan, huh?

128 grc, I "bullied" you?

God All Mighty.

129 Sorry, Ace. Kind of. You know what I meant. I think.

130 Ace, thanks for restoring that thread!

131 Palin is being ragged on horribly by the left and they are throwing all sorts of slime on her. On top of it, you have the right elitist also criticizing her and McCain choosing her. Since she is not going to magically become more experienced, and you are not going to wait and give her a chance to see how she handles herself at the convention and in the debates, you can only want McCain to dump her. Is that acceptable? Then say it instead of beating around the bush.

132 >>>Palin has flaws.  Obviously the NRO doesn't?  And never did?

NRO has flaws.  But just as I would keep criticism of Palin on a fair plane, so would I keep criticism of NRO.

Again, I've reopened the thread as a frustration/criticism thread.  It's just not a personal flame thread anymore.  What's the problem, now?

133 No problems...not a lot of answers either.  Well never mind.  On to the convention...

134 grc, I "bullied" you? God All Mighty.

Calling me a fucking obamabat and the other asshole calling me a totalitarian -- yeah, you are bullying.  Now show me where Sarahw was bullied or told she could not express her opinion?

So you'll take Palin over Reagan, huh?

Yes. She's alive and he's dead. duh. Keep up, Ace.

135 "What's the problem, now?"

I have this burning sensation when I pee on a hobo.

136 Oh, stop sucking Ace's dick. Totalitarian? Obamabot? You can both blow me. Again, if you and the FAT NRO elitist slobs want McCain to dump Palin have the balls to say it outright. Instead, you are just going to keep kicking her in the shins and saying who me?

I give up.

137 >>>Sorry, Ace. Kind of. You know what I meant. I think.

Not a problem. 

I think people are taking this personally.  I have to stress I'm not scolding anyone -- I knew, however, that when I closed it, people would demand to know WHY, and I'm providing my reasons why.

The reasons why?  It just looks bad, it's unfair to some people who are offering good-faith criticism, it seems to set a precedent that no criticism will be permitted, etc.

Without mincing words, yeah, obviously I think Purple Avenger made a mistake here.  I'm in the difficult position of trying to correct the mistake, while also, of course, having to justify myself to a lot of people who don't think it was a mistake at all.

Again, I think Palin as flaws, and I've been a booster for a while.  But you know why I never got on board and actually really pushed her for Veep?  You know why I never actually thought it was possible she'd be so selected?  Why it was such a huge surprise?

The obvious:  Because she lacks any obvious foreign policy experience or depth of previous consideration.

I still like her -- but those reasons I never expected this are also fair reasons to criticize her as a choice.  And I believe criticism must be toleratred, especially when it's so obviously fair.

She has flaws.  She's a net winner, a net positive, but don't let's pretend she doesn't have negatives bringing her score down a little bit.  We're better than that.  We don't have to lie to ourselves or each other or enforce a group-think code of  permissible discussion here.

138 grc,

I'm sorry if you feel personally attacked.  However, you are taking the position that any *honest* (and I think objectively fair) criticism of or hesitancy about Palin "hurts the team" and thus is impermissible.  I think that elevates partisan interest over honesty. 

And as I've said, honesty trumps everything.

Do you think that's a good guideline?

139 Palin isn't perfect, but she clearly has the ability to energize conservatives and move the Republican effort forward. 

Perhaps we shouldn't be piling on NRO, since the outcome of this election is so important....but I don't think it's wrong to openly question and disagree with them.  Frankly, sometimes they get so far up on their high-horse that the altitude could give them a nosebleed.

The fact that the Dems have been tripping all over themselves to dismiss Palin says a lot.  They've been clumsy, stumbling fools.  Sure we can criticize Palin when deserved, but overall, Sarah Barracuda is exactly what this campaign needed!  I'm perfectly happy seeing us show our support.

140 Actually this is a good thing.  Up to now there has been no one in the field  the any of us were going to defend...  McCain wins. I think.

141 The problem with a site like NRO pointing out those negatives is the other side then gets to say "See?  Even NRO doesn't think she has enough experience."  But I'd rather have to deal with that than try to enforce some kind of mob-rule code of silence on criticism.  Let them air their concerns, but let's all remember November's choice isn't an up-down choice on McCain/Palin.  It's a choice between McCain/Palin and Obama/Biden.

The personal attacks are stupid, counterproductive, and beneath us.  If I'm gonna act like a lefty I'll be a lefty and get some of that easy hippy chick lovin'.

There's no shame in shutting down a thread that gets out of hand like that.

142 Ace:

I'm sorry that you are only sorry that I feel personally attacked instead of you just admitting that you did personally attack me. That's one of those non apology apologies.

You continue to avoid the issue. What do you and others expect to achieve by continuing to criticize McCain for selecting Palin? Do you want him to dump her?
And what do you and others expect to achieve by continuing to criticize Palin for lack of experience? Is there someway she could become more experience in f.a. before the election? No? So, what does hammering away constantly on her weakness which the left does withour your help achieve? If honesty trumps everything, how come you are having such a difficult time answering my questions?

As far as being a bot of any kind, I have repeatedly posted here that I wasn't going to vote for McCain and Palin was not my first choice. However, she is the VP candidate and yours and others criticizms achieve nothing but lessening her chances of winning.  Also, one thing you can never accuse me of is being such a bot/partisan/party cheerleader that I would intentionally mislead people on election results. Sound familiar?

143 Well let's not get carried away.  Calling a pasty faced weasel a pasty faced weasel is one of the few pleasures I get in life.  Not that there are now or have ever been any pasty faced weasels working at the NRO.

144

However, she is the VP candidate and yours and others criticizms achieve nothing but lessening her chances of winning.

If only we had wielded this awesome power in the primaries.

Day late and a dollar short.  Just like always.

145 >>>What do you and others expect to achieve by continuing to criticize McCain for selecting Palin?

Um, honest debate without fear of an enforced speech code?

Furthermore, only 39% of the public thinks Pain is qualified for Pres.

Through debate, good arguments for her qualification could emerge that could convince another 15%.

But you know what won't convince anyone?  "Shut up, you're not allowed to say or think bad things about Sarah Palin."

146

Ace,

Ok, Sarah has flaws.  What are they in this political climate?  I agree with Entropy above, people are looking for something other than what we've had.  I'm not blindly going to say she's perfect, but in this climate, she's the perfect pick.  The reaction from the left is testament to that. NRO, no you're right, Brookheiser, is a freakin tool.  I'm insulted by his comment and will drop a line to let him know.  But in all honesty I wasn't going to vote for Mac before this pick, but I'm excited by the possibilities for the future if they win. 

147 Um, honest debate without fear of an enforced speech code?

Like calling some one an obama bot and totalitarian? Is that honest debate or name calling? You don't call that intimidation in order to quash speech? You really believe NRO is afraid of me? Are you drinking?

Furthermore, only 39% of the public thinks Pain is qualified for Pres.
Through debate, good arguments for her qualification could emerge that could convince another 15%.

And arguing that she should be allowed to fairly present herself sans the anklebiting is damaging how?

But you know what won't convince anyone?  "Shut up, you're not allowed to say or think bad things about Sarah Palin."

Know what else won't convince voters? Constantly ragging on her and telling others they should shut up, personally insulting them, and making false accusations when they complain about it.  And you still didn't answer the questions. 

148 >>>.  I'm not blindly going to say she's perfect, but in this climate, she's the perfect pick. 

She's the best pick of the bunch, but "perfect."

The thing is:  Anyone who was actually perfect for the job of VP -- had the charisma to swing voters, had a great bio, was right on the issues as far as the party's desires, had a good deal of success in politics and business, had all the requisite executive and fp experience -- wouldn't be picked as a VP, because they'd have already won the nomination for PRESIDENT.

So most VPs are either going to be boring gray technocrats who actually haven't accomplished very much, they've just been in the game a long time -- like Biden -- or exciting politicians with a *future* but, as people with *futures* do, lacking much of a *past* -- like Palin.

Only rarely will you have a Dick Cheney, who has pretty much every box checked.  (Except the youth and vitality one, and except for the kind of charisma that's potentially appealing to those *outside* the base.)

I think Palin is a great pick and was, in fact, one my own personal fantasy list, at the top.  But she was on my *fantasy* list because of her lack of obvious qualifications to take over for McCain should that become necessary.

I really don't see the use of pretending otherwise.

149 I can clear up this controversy right now.  I put my little Ricky up to it.  He was actually getting a full-bore boner for this Palin chick and I told him that I would remove his you-know-whats Jesse-Jackson-style if he didn't post something really bitchy and snarky about her on the Corner.

So now you can go back to reading my dear little Ricky's columns again.

OK?

150 grc,

I'm going to say this one last time:  YOU said that honest criticism wasn't permitted because it "didn't help the team."

If you would like to retract and reformulate that, and add a bit of nuace, terrific.

If you're sticking to that formulation, then own it:  It IS Obama-ish.  If you can explain how that rule is any different from the rule of the Kos Kids or Obamatards, please enlighten me.  Because I don't see any difference.

Maybe I'm wrong.  If so, let me know what distinguishes your rule from their.

151 What really proves someone is a moonbat?  To me, it's when they claim the NYT, WAPO, CNN, MSNBC, et al are conservative.

Yeah, NRO tends not to represent the right wing fully.  Our MSM climate is shifted over to the left, and its idea of the 'extreme' right is much more moderate than the left is.

I blame a lot of this on those right wing pundits who are too career minded and too interested in those NYT bylines and all the other frills that they have to remain respectable for.  But like I said somewhere else, in this media climate, all the truly good guys have gone extinct (to other formats).

CNN isn't truly liberal, but they are pretty liberal, and when a moonbat claims they are partisan republican, they are being fools.  But as long as we're not claiming these right wing pundits are anything they aren't (conservatives who are way too eager to please the left, but still conservative), we aren't really being foolish.

152 You can say it until you're fucking blue in the face, Ace, but it won't make it true. Don't fucking put words into my mouth.  And you have the nerve to talk about honesty? Jeesh!  And again, as far as partisanship goes, lets talk about skewing election results. Remember that? I know you do.

153 cross posted in the other thread:

i should admit this is partly colleagial courtesy.  The fact is I wouldn't want NRO to open a Bash Ace thread on their site, putting me out as chum-for-fun for all their readers.

I don't really want to do that to them, either.  I really am not "friends" with any of them, but for the sake of disclosure I *rarely* exchange emails with Ex-Cornerite JPOD, have met K-Lo and Goldberg (briefly), and Styen (VERY briefly), have exchanged brief emails with Levin and interviewed McCarthy on the old radio show.  I kinda know Spruiell.  Played poker with him a few times.

It's harder to be personally mean to someone you've even met or kinda know, and so I might have a bit of emotional reluctance about this.

It's not that I think criticizing NRO is off limits.  I just don't want it to be a general flame thing.  Bear in mind, when we flame war each other, we're all in on the joke and active, willing participants.

Did K-Lo sign up to get roughed up in a flame thread?  Of course not. 

154 Just in the spirit of telling truth to morons, the flame thread is hereat the new site. It will still accept comments. Except no one will see them.

155

Link to whatever Stanley Kurtz is writing in regard to his attempts to access the Annenberg Collection at U of I. Anything that exposes Ayers and his connection to The One is important. Rommesh Pomerrou's take on Sarah Palin is not.

Just the fact that the MSM is taking the bait with respect to the (lack of) experience issue is worth Sarah's nomination. Period. Anything else (drilling, women in positions of power, etc) is gravy.

156 Whoever said in the closed thread that "DaMav" was dissing Palin must be talking about another one out there somewhere.  This one has been part of Palin for VP" for almost a year and is enthusiastically (understatement of the year) delighted to see her as the candidate.

Just for the record...

and yeah, I'm disappointed at the NR but I don't see them as the enemy, just looking a bit foppish at this point. 

157 "Furthermore, if you guys are really saying that -- in a perfect world -- you wouldn't prefer it if Palin had more years as governor, and more foreign policy experience, then... I don't know."

You're missing the point.

If she had those things, we'd be pissed off that she wasn't the Presidential nominee instead of McCain.

158 I think that having a thread to debate the NRO comments is the very definition of debate.

159 Sorry I haven't read all the comments. I have no bone to pick with conservatives having reservations with Sarah. I have been watching her for a while and am more than pleased that McCain has picked her. I have mixed feelings about McCain, and my first post here was about my support for teh Fred. All I would like to see, is that the ones at NR that have doubts to spend some time with her. I think she would be eager to talk to especially them. Much is made of experience. That is a valuable and tangible thing. But all real rational, moral decisions come from one place. I know that these men and women that have doubts are intelligent enough to spot a dissembler, an empty suit if it is one. Put it to the test by spending time with the source. Then report honestly what you think and feel. I will listen and consider with my mind open. I know that I will not be disappointed. And perhaps they will find more insight to the person Sarah is, and  if she is Steel or Plastic.

160 YouTube Video Converter helps you download YouTube video to your computer and convert YouTube Video to MP4, 3GP and other videos, such as convert YouTube to avi, DivX, XviD, rm, rmvb, MOV, MPEG, MPEG4 AVC, H.264 and WMV, VOB; VCD, SVCD and DVD Format .mpg; And the independent player of the YouTube Converter will amuse you by playing your favorite videos.M2TS Converter is a powerful m2ts conversion software that can convert M2TS files to other video and audio formats. Convert m2ts, ts, trp hd video files is so fast and perfect.For e.g. With the M2TS Converter you can convert m2ts to AVI, convert M2ts to MPG, convert m2ts to iPod, convert m2ts to WAV, etc. The software support a series of output formats like, WMV, AVI, ASF, MPEG, MP4, MOV, 3GP, VOB, FLV, WMA, MP3, AAC, WAV, etc. It can aslo supprt convert m2ts files to iPod, iPhone, Apple TV, Zune, PSP, PS3, Creative Zen, Archos, MP3, and other Video and audio players. The Transfer iPod to Computer is premium iPod transfer software for iPod music, video and photo transferring. It can transfer iPod to computer and backup iPod to computer quickly and smoothly. It's also a computer to iPod transfer tool which can transfer iPod music, videos and photos from computer to iPod.iPod to Mac Transferis perfect and powerful iPod transfer for Mac software. It offers iPod to Mac transfer of music, photo, video, movie, podcast and TV program. Moreover, iPod to iTunes, and Mac to iPod transfer are also supported.DVD to iPod for Mac is specially designed for Mac Intel and Mac Power PC users to convert DVD movies to iPod video format on Mac OS X (including Mac OS X 10.5 Leopard). Supports playback on iPod touch, iPod classic, iPod nano and other portable video players.

161 hair extensions before and after problems Baldness is the number one hair costumes wigs are easier to care for as you don hair weaves when there is something new about you clip in extensions accessory today Just wigs that will adapt to their lifestyle short wigs clip in hair.

162 tluminor marina watches ladies watches date window at 12:00 It has a rubber strap and is replica watches fake oris watches.

163 Want to convert 2D to 3D and share the digital 3D videos on the Nintendo 3Ds or LG optimus 3D? Have a free trail of this 2D to 3D Converter, Powerful 2D to 3D functions will rock you!

As 3D video format gets hotter and hotter, 3D portable devices becomes a enjoyable part of people's lives. If you just own one, you must have a need to convert 2D to 3D format, here recommend you this 2D to 3D Converter which can convert any normal video to 3D with ultrafast speed, for truetheater entertainment at home. Leave the expensive 3D theater ticket away right now!

164 Extra heel of the Supra Shoes protection molded into comfortable thick high memorypolyurethane insole.iPaymu.com Pembayaran Online Indonesia

165 hasdress online