1 "Actually, Senator, we're sticking our excess profits into developing an alternative to Congress."

2

Dear trust-fund fed, fat-ass progeny of Favid Rockefeller,

how much percent stock of Exxon stock do you hold? Enough to force it through the board? No? Then fcuk off. You don't own the thing anymore.

3

Wait. I have an idea.

Has anyone designed a car that can run on whale oil??

4

Kerosene was the alternative energy of its day when he realized it could replace whale oil.

WTF?!?!  You're replacing one form of oil with another.  How the fuck is that visionary?  HAHAHAHA!!!!

 

5 Whale oil is an animal based biofuel.

6 Alright, see if anyone can call bullshit on this.

One of my buds is a materials science engineer. He just got a new job in an area that is currently a hotbed of hiring, big bucks and innovation. We were discussing oil, refining, etc., which he knows tons about. He informed me of what all of his MSE friends who work for the oil and energy companies have told him: oil is dead to them. The big guys, though they are still producing product to try to meet demand have decided internally that although we'll still be using petroleum products into the future to produce physical goods, we will not be using it for energy, regardless of supply levels past thirty years out.

They are currently dumping billions of dollars into what the green weenies like to call "alternative energies." Well, not dumping. Investing. These companies obviously know how to make a buck. They also informed him that the "no new refineries" has nothing to do with gov't regulation/enviroweenies. It's because they don't see it as a good investment right now, because they feel that demand will be falling off significantly over the next few decades due to their current research. It just doesn't make sense to them to spend billions on new equipment that they're only going to mothball around the corner.

Also, companies that aren't normally into energy are apparently seeing the future of energy production and investing heavily in, for example, Conoco Phillips inkjet photovoltaic technology. We're talking hundreds of millions of dollars from Incs. like IBM, to name one name that he named.

Make of that what you will.

7 I'm no expert at the whole shareholder activism thing, but I'm pretty sure that these shareholder resolutions tend to be more successful when the company isn't pulling in cash hand-over-fist.

8

They are currently dumping billions of dollars into what the green weenies like to call "alternative energies." Well, not dumping. Investing. These companies obviously know how to make a buck.

Nah. It's PR.

There's no garauntee they'll find anything that'll beat oil for cheapness, even with the raising costs, so we may very well still be using it in 30 years.

I haven't seen any hint of any alternative fuel that I give a snowball's chance in hell of replacing it (except nuclear).

Fuel cells? They're batteries, STFU. Might as well propose "Double D Energizers" as an "alternative energy source". Morons.

Ethanol? Bwahahahaha! No.

This is all a bunch of crap. All hype no substance crap.

It's oil, coal, natural gas, or nuclear, and so far that's it.

 

9

Mr. Frakypants,

Unless those new alternative technologies can produce as much energy as oil, at the same or a cheaper price, then I call bullshit on "green energy".

Right now, and in the near future, our cars and industry will still run on oil.  Same with the developing world.  I don't see a slump in demand, in fact I see it a steady rise.  My kids will be paying $20/gallon for regular in their time.

If somehow, a new type of renewable energy source is found that can power our cars and industry just as well as oil, and in a cost-effective manner, then I'll eat a big plate of crow.

 

10

I think the Back to the Future idea of running on banana peels and used condoms is the best idea.

11 It's oil, coal, natural gas, or nuclear, and so far that's it.

I'd be all about driving a Prius if it had a nuclear reactor in it.

12 Actually, kerosene was realized as a substitute for whale oil and was well on it's way to replacing it before Rockefeller bought his first oil well. 

Rockefeller's genius was not to create or discover anything but get in the ground floor of a new business and rise to the top by joining cartels, pursuing monopolization, running his competition into bankruptcy, treating workers like dirt and polluting the environment all in the process of becoming evilly rich.  Then he recast his image by creating the largest philanthropy in the world with the money he ruthlessly stole from everyone.

I hope Exxon moves back to Cleveland.  The Cuyahoga River spontaneously igniting again would be a great tourist attraction!

13 Nah. It's PR.

Possibly, although I've not heard a sniff of it from any normal sources you'd hear this sort of thing from: i.e., news or the Internhets. If it was PR, you'd think they'd be hyping it.

14 According to my MSE, the Conoco Phillips tech his friend works on produces electricity that is, and I quote: "cheaper than coal electric."

15 I am reminded of when the Ford family pushed the Ford Motor Company into greenmobiles and international branding a few years back. Ford lost billions.

16 How about if we start drilling in the ANWR and go tell those greens to  GO JUMP IN A LAKE

17

Remember when the Rockefellers (and other wealthy families) used to do objectively good things with their free time and excess money - like found and/or endow universities (Rockefeller University, University of Chicago, all the Ivies), museums (the Met and MoMa) and other cultural monuments for use and benefit of  Americans (Colonial Williamsburg)?

Now they are like every other wealthy airhead family, spending their money to browbeat other people to benefit their own egos and show off to their wealthy friends. The money must either go to environmental cause de jour or innocent third worlders untainted by America's evil. None can go to Americans, even poor Americans in rural areas. Just money down the drain with no future use.

But I guess the difference is that the founders of these dynasties actually had to work for their money - whereas their offspring feel entitled (and clap while Obama slams people not too different from their ancestors of the generation before they got rich).

18 Well, Mr. Frakypants who-I-have-never-seen-post-here-before,

If some guy you know told you all this, it must be true! Thanks.

Personally, I'll bet that petroleum is still the main source of energy in the US 20 years from now. Sometime in the near future, the cost of imported oil will cause an outcry from the American public to finally extract the oil reserves that we already have, however dirty and however much the tree-huggers cry and scream about it.
That, and build more nuke and coal electric plants. Because people like caribou and antelope to run free in a pristine environment and all, but stop caring much when they can't afford to drive to work anymore. We have oil in Alaska, offshore California and Florida, and in Rocky mountain shale. But the liberals won't let us touch it. That will change when the coming oil crash hits.   

19 Remember also that as oil gets pricier, alt-energy becomes a better choice by default. I would say, pulling numbers out of thin air here, that we'll see a significant tipping point within five years, to the point that significant numbers of people will be installing solar panels on their homes, using alternative auto fuel, etc. Let's say 5% of our energy will be from alt sources. In ten years, that number will be up to 15% at the minimum.

20 There are two processes at work here: traditional energy is getting more expensive, and alt-energy is getting cheaper. Nanosolar and the other thin-film solar companies are selling product faster than they can make it, because it's finally cheap enough to make sense economically.

21 I view alternate electricity / gasoline tech like pusher props. Every so many years the industry develops a new computer model and suddenly (!again!) this new tech appears to be just a few years of development away from changing the industry. They will build a few prototypes and then discover (like Piaggiio and GE and Beech ) that the full scale actual "thing" uses more than the model predicted and makes less too. Congress should open the US to new drilling, to new refining, and to new nukes. When the alternative energy is ready, it will be cheaper and better and the market will push itself.

22 I hate to point this out, but solar electric and nuclear power have bugger-all to do with the price of oil.  Electricity in this country comes from coal, and replacing or supplementing coal fired plants with solar or nuclear might be nice for the Al Gore crowd but that's about all it will do.  You can't put coal in your car's gas tank and drive around (well, you can until the gasoline at the bottom of the tank is gone; then you just have coal rattling around in your gas tank).

23

Wow, how idiotic.  I guarantee that when Exxon discovers a potential fuel that could be simpler to deliver and provide greater profitability - they will be on that like white on rice. 

They are, after all, in business to make money.  Alternative fuels may sound neat, but unless there is money to be made, nobody is going to do a damn thing with it.

24 Log Cabin -- googling "site:minx.cc mr.frakypants" returns five pages of results. You are now Turd Log Cabin to me forever.

I'm just relaying what I was personally told by someone inside the industry. Not saying it's the truth -- obviously at this point it's third or fourth sourced. Not saying it's going to happen. That's why I said "make of it what you will" and invited anyone with actual knowledge (as opposed to supposition) to call bullshit on it.

25

 You can't put coal in your car's gas tank and drive around (well, you can until the gasoline at the bottom of the tank is gone; then you just have coal rattling around in your gas tank).

Well, if these fuel cells pan out (they're just batteries though!), you could put a fuel cell in your car, and the energy to charge the fuel cell (that is, seperate the hydrogen you fill it back up with) could come from nuclear power.

And it MIGHT actually wind up being cheap and viable.

Then all our cars would be running on power that was generated from a nuclear source, rather then oil.

But this (fuel cells) aren't an energy plan - nuclear is. Fuel cells might make it viable for portable uses, as a component of a nuclear plan, but the cells are just batteries. Fuel cells by themselves will do fuck all for anything. Just because you aren't burning oil in your car, the hydrogen factory will be burning just as much (actually MORE) to create it for you.

26

On another note, you COULD drive around in a steam-powered car with a coal furnace and hire a mexican to sit in the trunk and shovel it in....

I need more power, Pablo!

No es bueno, senor Captain! She's running mucho caliente allready!

Si, se puede Pablo! Si, se puede!

27 deadrody -- My friend's point was that they are, in fact, on this like white on rice, or me on your mom and sister at the same time.

28

Ok, couple things here from someone that works in an electric utility...

"cheaper than coal" is a neat concept, but what does that mean, exactly ?  Nuclear power was supposed to be "too cheap to meter" 40-50 years ago, but now each plant spends $50 to $75 million each year on staff alone.  They can still make electricity for under 2 cents / KW-hour.  But considering fuel costs alone, nuclear costs only a fraction of that.  So to say something is "cheaper than coal electricity" requires a great deal more information to even have meaning.

No, oil does not set electricity prices, natural gas does.  While the vast majority of electricity comes from coal plants, the average price is set by the upper end of the electricity market, and to meet that demand requires running a lot of very expensive LNG plants. 

What you do see, however, similar to the way high corn prices are driving up the price of other grains like rice and wheat, the rising price of oil and natural gas drives up the price of all fuels.  The price of a cord of wood has gone up as home heating oil and propane goes up as a result. 

The bottom line is that you cannot force the market.  The near crisis level results of ethanol subsidies should make that crystal clear.  Until an alternative fuel is cheaper and more plentiful than oil on it's own, oil will continue to be the driving force for fuel prices.

29 I think the Back to the Future idea of running on banana peels and used condoms is the best idea

Depends on who's using the condoms, doesn't it?

30 think of the government's potential losses from fuel conservation. I heard that the combined gov'ts (local, state and fed)  make about 42 cents on every gallon sold. we cut consumption 20% and gov't takes a commensurate pay cut.  even if we cut down, gov't will just raise the tax to compensate for their loss.

31 Wow frakypants, how to win friends and influence people.  What they are spending money on now is in HOPES of finding something that could replace oil.  When they DISCOVER that you will see "white on rice".  That's not what they are doing now.  They have a shitload of money and are throwing as much crap against the wall as they can in hopes that something sticks.

32 Rockefeller's genius was in noticing that the Confederates had sunk our whaling fleet and the whales were being overharvested by other countries, so the whale oil was going the way Saudi oil is going today.

33

Too funny. You forgot about making &^%#@ profits too.

Which oil companies don't seem to be expected to do in times where it's possible.

When times were bad, no compensated us...so go figure.

 

34 deadrody They have a shitload of money and are throwing as much crap against the wall as they can in hopes that something sticks.

Quite probably. Also, when people say things to me to the effect that they've never seen me post before (Log Cabin) or "Wow, how idiotic" (you), I take that as an invitation to "give back to the community." No offense meant beyond the normal level of insult on this blog. Sorry -- didn't actually mean to piss anyone off.

Once again, I'm not arguing this point of view -- just presenting it and wanting to see the kind of holes poked in it here that I figured probably would be. I hear that if you want holes poked in something, this is the place to be.

35 The only reason we use gasoline now is because it was the cheapest thing around at the time - it being the by-product of kerosene production, they were either having to burn it or find ways to store an EXTREMELY flammable fuel that was considered a waste product.

And until they can find something that provides as many ergs of power per unit cost as gasoline (which is the actual measure to be used), gasoline (and other hydrocarbons) will continue to be the fuel of choice.

As the price goes up, oil fields that were once considered "too expensive" (such as the shale oil deposits in Colorado and the new strike in North Dakota - estimated to be larger than the entire Persian Gulf deposits) will suddenly become profitable to operate again, and the supply will increase. It happened in the mid-70s, it happened again in the early-80s, and it will happen again.

But as long as gasoline is still cheaper than bottled water, this isn't a crisis.

36

I'm not sold on this whale oil is passe, business. It's gonna make a comeback.

The problem is we were running around hunting wild whales and chucking fuckin spears at them fer chrissakes, like some sort of primitive savages.

What we need to do is domesticate the whales. Set up some whale farms and breed em, and pump em full of growth hormones.

We'll sell the meat to the Japanese, grind up the leftovers and feed em back to the other whales until they develop Mad Whale disease.

37 The "Dallas radio guy" (though the station is actually in Arlington, closer to Fort Worth than Dallas) is Mark Davis.  He's on WBAP from 9 a.m. to 11:45 a.m., Central time.  He guest hosts for Rush every now and then.  I wouldn't put him in the same category with Rush, but he is pretty good.  Check out his internet feed (wbap.com) some day.

38

I'm going to the bank this afternoon to apply for a loan.

I'm gonna be a whale magnate!

And if the hippies from PETA or Save the Whales try to go all ecoterrorism on me, I can feed the ones I capture to my growth-hormone-and-steroid-injected, genetically altered, mutant spongiform-incefilitis infected mad whales, who I will then use to capture US navy nuclear subs and use the missiles to destroy the moon. Which will throw off tidal forces, causing the whole world to flood and thereby giving me and my whale army dominion over all.

39

You know, not surprisingly a fictional precedent for this, kind. The 1980 movie

The Formula, featured Brando, in his mumbling best, as a Midwestern oil tycoon, who had stolen a Nazi synfuels formula, based on coal liquifaction but was waiting for the Oil crisis, to introduce it, to the masses.

40

Possibly, although I've not heard a sniff of it from any normal sources you'd hear this sort of thing from: i.e., news or the Internhets. If it was PR, you'd think they'd be hyping it.

Frakypants has never seen an oil company paid TV commercial hyping their alternatative energy research? BP, Shell, Exxon, they all do it.

 

41 Entropy,

Was that a whale magnate, or a whale magnet?  I'm easily confused as to the difference.

42 What we need to do is domesticate the whales. Set up some whale farms and breed em, and pump em full of growth hormones.

Fuck yeah, I think you're onto something. The Great Lakes seems to be the perfect venue. Fully enclosed, but large enough to house thousands of whales. Plus, a ready-made, resident labor population on the shores. Think of all the whale-shit-shovelling, blubber-slicing, krill-breeding jobs we can create in economically depressed communities like Detroit, Chicago and Cleveland.

43 PR: never seen an oil company paid TV commercial hyping their alternatative energy research

Not in the last four years.

44

Not in the last four years

They're on TV constantly. OK, I haven't seen one in about...6 months maybe.

But I was seeing alot not too long ago.

45 I know I've seen BP ads that promote their alt energy research.  They ramped it up when they changed their logo to the pretty flower thing a few years ago.

46 BP's current slogan is.............Beyond Petroleum. There's a hint in there somewhere.

47 And, mrfrakypants, the reason you're not recognized as a regular commenter here is you haven't purchased your official AOS Moron sticker! This OFFICIAL sticker attaches to your computer monitor screen (put it in the lower right corner facing inward), and tells everybody here you're legit! Just send $19.95 (make the check out to 'cash') to:
                                     Official AOS Moron Sticker
                                   112½ Avenue de Hobos Mortes
                                        Los Angeles, CA 52125
                              

Do it TODAY!

48 Hell, I'd buy an official AOS Moron Sticker, but $19.95?

I may be a moron, but I'm not stupid.

49 Entropy: catch the sock puppet on my PR comment. I haven't seen a commercial since I got a DVR several years ago, with the exception of the ones shown during live sporting events that I watch on occasion. Not saying they don't exist, just that I don't see them.

50

You forgot about making &^%#@ profits too.

 

You just watch your language there little missy.  EM doesn't care about profits.  They care about a world of harmony and pretty ponies.

Now, my company cares about profits.  But all we want is our fair share, which we currently calculate as making enough money to burn a herd of wet mules.

51

I'm suddenly reminded of that Subaru commercial where they'll all going on about how their plant (in the US!) has blue herons at it or something.

A new business model - one with a lawn, with wild blue herons.

They think it's time. (Or maybe it was 'We think there's room for a new sort of business' or something like that. They could probably save some cash by having a tie-in ad campaign and claim "It's time for CHANGE")

Having blue herons taking craps on your employees cars while they're assembling gear shafts does not increase your bottom line.

At least not directly.

They do this shit because their focus group research says it sells.

The problem is, so long as they're running around thinking people put value on enviroweenieism, they run the risk of drawing the logical conclusion and falsely assuming people are willing to pay more for it (or sacrifice other benefits).

Point being, just because a company goes after this stuff doesn't mean it makes financial sense. Companies screw up, and they can pander just as shamelessly as politicians - maybe moreso.

So yah, I'm absolutely sure Exxon Mobil wants to sell us new fuel made out of gumdrops and wishes or something... because they think that's what we want to buy. But it doesn't matter if it's cheaper or better, or more expensive and crappy.They want to sell us whatever the hell they can sell us.

52

51 posts on oil "profiteering" and not a single Daniel Plainview "I...drink...your...milkshake!"-style quote.

...think of all the whale-shit-shovelling, blubber-slicing, krill-breeding jobs we can create

Bravo, sir. Poetry.

53

...think of all the whale-shit-shovelling, blubber-slicing, krill-breeding jobs we can create

and none of them in Buffalo?  What does everyone have against Buffalo?  Besides the weather - I'll give you that.

54 Bullshit......

Might be TMI...but I work for a major oil (one that the Rockefeller's used to own), albeit not on the Upstream side.  We aren't making major investments in Green energy because there is no leading technology in that sector right now.  If we could make money in it, we'd be there.

Most of our investment is in research, exploration and capacity expansion overseas. 

55 BTW...the statement above is not affiliated with any official policy positions of my employer and should not be construed as such.  It is simply my personal opinion

56 $19.95 for an AoS moron sticker?!!  What the hell are the oil companies doing about making cheaper stickers!  This is an outrage!!

57 I always have the same comment whenever someone like these Rockefeller heirs talk about green energy, or when someone talks about the alternative to the combustion engine:  "Great, I agree with you.  If you think it is such a good idea, take all your money and invest it in that technology."  Somehow you never get any takers.  Moral preening is easy and doesn't cost anything.

58 and none of them in Buffalo?  What does everyone have against Buffalo?  Besides the weather - I'll give you that.

Buffalo can get in on the action too, but I figured that a Dideot's Dog-length listing of rust belt cities would kill the joke.

59

DIT,

I work in the chem industry.  I get to see a lot of neat stuff, the sort of thing that is brewing in Houston's R&D centers right now.

The way the whole Alternative Energy gig seems to be going now is that spin offs are doing the R&D.  This is by the funding of Angels.  At some later date, the bigger Co's will buy out the Angels of the successful Co's and incorporate the tech into their product lines.

It makes sense to me that the Big Oil Co's will be the leaders in actual implementation of commercial alternative energy sources.  You need to have a couple of things going for you to pull this off:

1. A solid, robust technology

2. Access to raw materials

3. Ability (capital) to convert raw materials into product

4. Awareness (by customers) of the product offering

5. Ability to deliver the product to the customer (distribution network).

 

So the normal MO is to have the spin offs and startups develop the tech via venture funding, then let Commercial Darwinism allow the cream to rise to the top, where they are bought by the biggies.

I say that the move for Big Oil to directly get into the tech is a sign that alternative energy sources are coming closer than ever to being implementation.

The other day I was voting in the PA primary.  An honest to God leftover hippe hollered across the parking lot to me to join the Siera Club's effort to "support alternative energy development instead of giving tax breaks to Giant Oil Companies".  I must have looked liek an easy target holding my preschooler's hands.  I hollered back "Actually, I think our best bet to develop alternative energy soureces is to give tax breaks to Giant Oil Companies".    She was not amused.

I would have liked to add this at an earlier time in the thread.  Between work and being a Daddy I can get backlogged a bit on these here Intertubes.

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