1 Umm, wow.  Walk away from the computer to participate in that "life" thing, and all this. 

Kinda what I meant, but, also kinda not what I meant.

2 Brookheiser's argument that we are not thinking about the GWOT is crap at best.

The lefts argument that energy policy is only associated with the price of gas should be exploited as much as possible.  20 years ago if we would have drilled ANWR and anywhere else we needed in order to become energy independent, we would be a LOT better off as far as how we handle the rest of the world.  Imagine the US being the greatest net exporter of energy into western europe, instead of Putin.

As it is we have to run around the globe and beg like monkeys to get a gallon of gas.

K

3 It's a caribou, Ace. Gotta get these things right if you want to be down with the bitterrclingers.

4 Yeah, one thing about Palin, which no one is talking about much, is that she has a serious expertise in energy.  The left doesn't LIKE her expertise, as she's pro-oil, but it is expertise nevertheless.

The reason Palin came to most of our attention was on this issue.

I think it's true that she doesn't have fp experience.  But she does obviously have an expertise in a critical area that neither blowhard on the Democrat side does.

Does either have any kind of genuine expertise of any sort?  If they do, they've been hiding it.

5 Other than Brookhiser's idiotic post, no one on the 'Rebutal' thread was able to provide a single objectionable post (sorry Hermit Dave, yours didn't cut it) and his idiocy was smacked down hard by someone on NRO.

I don't get the anger at them.

6 I felt betrayed by the NRO folk - Nordliner is one of the best and his comedown on Palin was just sad.

7 NRO has increasingly become the voice of elite RINO-ism...the posts on the corner over the past months have been devoted to impact of political events on the *race* not on the country or on conservatism in the U.S. I interpret any discomfort in those quarters as political commentators who trade on their ability to monetize their analysis based on the conventional political and party lines. Palin is unconventional, and this is a threat. That's my take anyway. Regarding the idea that the pick of Palin is a threat due to lack of experience on her part. The conservative base is not overlooking this, it merely has faith that decisions taken in accordance with FIRST PRINCIPLES are more often correct than decisions made in accordance with principles of senatorial, go along get along compromise, experience be damned. There is much evidence that Ms. Palin believes in and acts based upon these first principles...and THIS is what makes her a game changer.

8 And that Brookhiser reformulation linked above is even worse than the original in its condescension. What a tool. I guess he's pissed Maverick didn't tap General Petraeus to show his bona fides for the WOT. I don't doubt the gentlelady from the great state of Alaska would pull the trigger if need be. Why does he?

9 Actually, for all the anger directed at The Corner, I've just been reading it, and I'm finding it pretty pro-Palin. There are reservations expressed, yes, and Brookheiser is aggressively antipathetic, but mostly...

I agree - not as much (I think the skepticism goes beyond Brookhiser), but while I have no problems with flames for the fun of it, my problem with the original thread is that to the extent anybody was being serious, it was well out of proportion.

10 Ace, do you remember when the left in England and the U.S. wondered if Thatcher had enough experience? Like you, I think she will answer any and all questions like a pro. Her stated positions and the way she handles herself are indicators of good judgement on positions international importance. I think she will always put America first. I would rather see her go toe to toe with Putin than Biden or Obama. She's got a spine. Obama, not so much.

11 Here's the latest from the douche at NRO:

"
This is a real person:  living through the crises and enjoyments that people and families go through...   This is populist fustian. America is full of real people. We don't consider putting any but a handful of them on ballots for national office.

I will give this bees' nest rest, because I want Gov. Palin to prove herself, even as I want John McCain to win. We have nine weeks. Let's go."


Me, I want the douche to prove he knows anything about the people who, you know, actually vote.

12 Dead animal pic had a stinky linky

13 This is like the 4th post on the freaking NRO, Let's get back to the important topics like the joy of value-rite vodka and hobo hunting, the simple pleasures. Those NRO pricks can go sale their yachts and listen to Mozart.

14 DrewM, while you're right, the critiques of Palin aren't universal outside MSNBC, I think this is just because the VP was a huge problematic area for Mccain.

Had Mccain picked PAwlenty, I think it would have been fairly muted on criticism (except that Mccain is supposed to be mavericky), but any other choice he had would have infuriated a lot of people.

Romney, Huckabee, Hutchinson, Leiberman... read that list and consider that the anger and defense of Palin is much like the anger in the primary.  Republicans are both aware that we need to fix our party (from Don Young to Bush's media handling), and furious that we aren't fighting the democrats more forcefully, because they are in the process of electing some seriously shady people.

We're just pissed off.  At eachother, at NRO, at Rush, at the dems of course, and Palin just brings it out in a certain direction.  I doubt it's any worse than had Mccain picked any of his other choices (except Pawlenty, but maybe even him).

The GOP is a large tent, and it's hard to decide where we're going.

15

Drew,

Because you think it's about Palin, apparently.

I probably shouldn't reitterate...see my posts on the other threads. This is emblematic of a larger problem that alot of people here were slamming NRO on long before McCain even picked Palin. And a lot of people (myself included) see it as the explanation of their views on Palin.

Maybe just a bit.

You've got a bunch of insiders, and I am fed up and hates me some insiders, attacking her on "lack of experience" (AKA outsider, who has not been in or spent lengthy amounts of time in the very same system alot of us think has gotten to them after too much time).

Duh. Where do you think I'm gonna go? As for antipathy, well, like I said - there'd be people slamming them on this very topic any day of the year. So now, when this is seen as yet another example of this mentality and what is wrong with their thinking, of course you're gonna see them go after it again.

And I think McCarthy was right on there. I had not read that before just now. All you people shouting 'experience', I really don't friggen understand you. Wha? I don't get it. You're all greek.

She hasn't had enough cocktails? She's got more executive experience then all 3 other nominees added together. 0+0+0 = 0, but apparently that's not worth shit because she doesn't have enough to statistically differentiate herself from 0.

She has more experience (for instance) of taking out and fighting the corrupt RINO fatcats that plague this party than perhaps anyone else in in this country  the whole presidential scene. But that's not worth anything either in terms of 'experience'....

She lacks 'foreign policy experience' though. That's apparently the experience you need...OK well, see, this is miffing me and I'm getting huffy.

NOT because you're criticizing Palin - that's circumstantial. Because you're getting into the whole segment of Republicans (neocons?) that are all "foreign policy foreign policy foreign policy!" - John McCain boosters in fact - that piss me off in general. I'll attack them for being them - the fact that Palin is the battlefield is just a coincidence. It's where we happen to be standing right now so it's where we'll bicker.

But I'd bicker those guys anywhere. I was bickering with them 10 months ago over John McCain himself, when they were boosting him.

Does that explain some of the anger? It's not about Palinbots because it's not even about Palin, really...

She's just highlighting fault lines. It's not that 'they don't like her', it's that it seems they don't like for the express same reasons I do like her. I'm not calling anyone a jackass for not liking the Palin pick.... I may call some of the NRO guys jackasses for being Rockefeller types though, and I think that's why some of them dislike her.

16

linkee no workee.

17 do you remember when the left in England and the U.S. wondered if Thatcher had enough experience?

Mare,

I was only about 10 when Thatcher came to power but I don't recall reading anything about experience being an issue. She held a cabinet posts and was a shadow minister. Then she was leader of the opposition and the architect of the Conservatives national campaign and was at the head of it during the elections.

That's as much experience as anyone has when they become PM in the UK. And more experience than Palin has now.

18 The Palin selection was a choice to vote for a ticket (Maverick/Palin) instead of against one (Obama/Biden) for me and a lot of others. Neither Romney nor Pawlenty would have changed that dynamic for me. If the choice had been Liebs, I may well have stayed home for the first time in my life.

19

Yeah, one thing about Palin, which no one is talking about much, is that she has a serious expertise in energy.  The left doesn't LIKE her expertise, as she's pro-oil, but it is expertise nevertheless.

The reason Palin came to most of our attention was on this issue.

I think it's true that she doesn't have fp experience.  But she does obviously have an expertise in a critical area that neither blowhard on the Democrat side does.

See, right there, she's just a representation of a larger division.

You've got folks who's primary interest is domestic energy policy (on which, McCain sucks green balls), and you've got folks who think issue numbers 1-33 should be repeating "Iraq, Iraq, Iraq, Iraq, Iraq".

So if you attack her on that grounds, you're gonna start a flame fest - not because you're attacking her but because of how. You end up with a priority clash that starts flame wars wherever it happens to be brought up, in a fragmented GOP base.

20 Some nice photos of Palin and her family out with McCain on the trial over at McCain's daughter's blog: http://mccainblogette.com/.

Pictures like that of her and her family are going to appeal hard to people on a non-verbal level.  Just makes people feel good.

21 >>NRO has increasingly become the voice of elite RINO-ism...the posts on the corner over the past months have been devoted to impact of political events on the *race* not on the country or on conservatism in the U.S. If that were the case, wouldn't they have been the biggest backers of McCain during the primary instead of one of his biggest critics? This whole kerfuffle is amusing. We spend a year doing an anal probe on every person who ran for the Republican nomination. But now we are supposed to accept without question a woman who McCain has met twice in his life and who has been on the national stage for 5 minutes for the number 2 executive position without some debate? Yea, ok.

22 Entropy,

Then based on your antipathy towards DC type experience, shouldn't you be supporting Obama over McCain? Or at least defending him from McCain's attacks on his lack of that kind of experience?

Personally, I think experience matters. I think it matters more at the top of the ticket so I don't have an issue with Obama v. Palin because Obama is the one that matters more, plus you're right she has more executive experience than any of them (limited though it may be).

I think Romney had the ideal resume (private and public executive expereience) but lacked enough ideology for me. Romeny's resume+Palin's ideology (as far as I know it at this point) I'm in. Through in Palin's body and I'm donating time and money by the truck load!

23

 .........shouldn't you be supporting Obama over McCain?

FUCK

24 Mccain is exactly like Palin in that he jumped to higher levels before he was 'ready' and then was extremely effective.  He was running for congress extremely early.  He bought a house in Arizona District 1 pretty much the day that district opened for a newcomer, and he ran for Senate very quickly after, yet he's been one of the most prolific legeslators (not always for good, I might add).  He clearly thinks it's your spirit and strength that make you ready to lead, not your years in DC.

It's hard to clearly see how this is different from Obama's spirit, but it is different.  It's hard to see how Palin doesn't undermine the argument that Obama lacks something essential and Palin has that something (and indeed it will be a challenging sell to many), but I think clearly Obama lacks what Palin has and what Mccain picked her for.

Camile sees it too.  I am not a fan of JFK, but hearing him speak with a clear vision of this country 'ask not what this country can do for you, but what you can do for this country', and it's clear that the nation can be convinced by a clear and visionary reformer that old DC experience is not extremely valuable.

Is Mccain's time in the Senate why he's our nominee?  Or is it his wisdom on Iraq, other wars, and of course, his proof that he truly does put the country over his own interests.  Is Obama's work why he's beloved, or is it his promise that he has some kind of innate ability to change everything everyone blames the government for? 

Of course, I'm talking only about the politics and not the actual effects.  JFK was a disastrous president.  Obama would be too.  Mccain's years and connections would be really fucking helpful to a president.  But if Palin can convince America, as they curiously study her, that she's not green and that she has a living vibrant vision that is righteous, then she will knock them dead.

25 Okay - lets state the obvious.  Sarah Palin will be the first woman President provided we keep her protect from Vlady Putin. 

Her major issue is energy.  Putin's major issues are energy and dead people who get in the way.

Just sayin'.

However, I don't think we're going to have a shortage of Secret Service agents volunteering for "Palin detail."

26 The thing that bothers me about this is that there are a bunch of people assuming she is some sort of idiot even though they admit they know nothing about her. One thing that seems to be fairly universal is that the dumbest mother fucker in the group always thinks they are far more intelligent than everyone in the other group. Region, gender, race, political views, religion and most other categories are not useful for trying to determine if someone is intelligent or not. If you watch for them the stupid people will always identify something about them (I live in New York! I am white! I am progressive or conservative!I read Kos!...) with intelligence and something about the others with stupidity. You disagree with me on what the tax rate should be because you are stupid!!!

27 Ace, are you trying to get the caribou/Palin photo?  I can scan and send it if you can't get the link to work.

28

Let's have "The One" go one on one with the "Cudda".

Well? Where's you manhood, son?  (not boy, that would be racist.)

Let's also stop bickering like childern, its over, the pick has been made.  Circle the wagons, now damnit, we have Indians, er Democrats, to kill. 

And, WE know how to shoot! 

So lets start shooting, send money TODAY! 

29

Then based on your antipathy towards DC type experience, shouldn't you be supporting Obama over McCain? Or at least defending him from McCain's attacks on his lack of that kind of experience?

Drew, haven't you been paying attention?

That's been my gag since Romney dropped out. I'm voting for Obama.

In truth - I hate McCain. I'm not voting for Obama, but I'm not voting for that old bastard either. Seriously. Not liking McCain.

As for Obama, he's no outsider. I live in Chicago. The Chicago experience is like the DC experience only with an Italian accent.

Think 'Mr Smith goes to The Soppranos'. Obama has no experience breaking up the corrupt Chicago machine, he has a goodly bit of experience being a part of it.

30 Okay, this is semi-serious, but I'm going to speak as an actuary here. I wrote a little tool that will give you life expectancy, using particular standard mortality tables (one from Social Security, which covers the entire population, and one from an industry annuity experience, which covers people who are generally active and in good health). The calculator is here: http://www.soa.org/research/pension/research-simple-life-calculator.aspx Luckily, McCain just turned 72, and if I put that in there, I've got a life expectancy of 11-some years. Now that's with the Social Security 2000 table, which includes =everybody=. If I use the annuitant table, which I think is more appropriate for McCain, as he's still very active, gives a life expectancy of 15 years. Now you can bitch and moan about whether he'll be all there for all 15 of those years (and don't forget, that's just the =average= survival time -- he's got a 20% chance of living at least 22 more years!) McCain has an extremely high probability of surviving 4 more years, and pretty good probability of surviving 8. Of course, mortality tables are intended to be used to give an idea of probabilities, and all sorts of things can arise.

31

The GOP is a large tent, and it's hard to decide where we're going.

 

I don't think the Republican party is as diverse or fractuous (thankfully) as the Democrat party, to me the NRO represents the views of the North Eastern elite. I think NRO and I think Nelson Rockefeller, William F Buckley, Mitt Romney or his father.  I relate more to the Eisenhower, Goldwater, Reagan type Republicans, but I grew up in the South and have my own bias against the Northern elite.  It's about class and cultural/regional  differences. In the end as long as we all vote Republican , there is room for debate. The NRO is a great publication, but I don't read it that often, maybe I should , but Palin is the choice and a good one in my opinion.

32

And McCain?

McCain is suppose to have a bunch of experience as a clean government reformer right? WHAT experience?

That homo has been in the senate since dirt was new, and the only thing he's done since being involved in his own corruption scandal was cross the aisle and infringe upon my 1st ammendment rights.

Shyeah. Fuck that. No thanks.

33 Anyone watching the assholes on C-SPAN with Frank Luntz?

34

Maybe I'm different than a lot of conservatives, but the fact that she has an R after her name without being from the northeast, causes me to give her the benefit of the doubt in terms of judgement and world view. At least when compared to the messiah.

Since I'm from TX, I have no idea who the liut. governor of Utah is, but if he/she has an R after their name, then I implicitly trust that person's judgement more than I would that of the messiah.

That's just the fucking way it is.

35

Ace, the link doesnt work, but if its the awesome Caribou pic you're wanting, the LA TImes uses it to scare away the metrosexuals in this story: http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/front/la-na-palin31-2008aug31,0,1652317.story

Personally I love it and use it as the new wallpaper on my computer. Also a great link here for PUMAs for Palin:  http://logisticsmonster.wordpress.com/2008/08/30/puma-for-palin-the-caribou-are-going-to-take-it/

 

36 What? What?

She doesn't have the experience to go to the funerals of state dignitaries?

These people are fooking shitheads.

37 The ones who started the experience thing were Hillarites, and they should be the ones to be worried about their support of the One Mahdi.

We have always said our problem with the Chicago community organizer was that he's a fucking crazy, terrorist loving, baby murdering, racist church-going, uber-leftist slimebag, and if he was ready to lead it would only make thing worse, as he intends to lead to a very wrong location.

Palin is not one of those, so why should we be worried? All the talk about Palin's experience and crap nothing more than an inferiority complex, which is liberal disease, taking weaker form in pseudo-conservative bourgeoisee, fearful of a strong message. This is where i envy the left. They KNOW what (evil) Obama represents, and they support him because of what he believes in, without caving to populist-talk about 3am and so forth. 

38 I'm confused - are we debating the debating of the debating of the selection? Or just debating the debating of the selection? Or are we just debating the selection of Palin?

39

30 Okay, this is semi-serious, but I'm going to speak as an actuary here. I wrote a little tool that will give you life expectancy, using particular standard mortality tables (one from Social Security, which covers the entire population, and one from an industry annuity experience, which covers people who are generally active and in good health). The calculator is here:
http://www.soa.org/research/pension/research-simple-life-calculator.aspx

Luckily, McCain just turned 72, and if I put that in there, I've got a life expectancy of 11-some years. Now that's with the Social Security 2000 table, which includes =everybody=. If I use the annuitant table, which I think is more appropriate for McCain, as he's still very active, gives a life expectancy of 15 years. Now you can bitch and moan about whether he'll be all there for all 15 of those years (and don't forget, that's just the =average= survival time -- he's got a 20% chance of living at least 22 more years!) McCain has an extremely high probability of surviving 4 more years, and pretty good probability of surviving 8. Of course, mortality tables are intended to be used to give an idea of probabilities, and all sorts of things can arise.

 

 

McCain well live into his 90's but I think that the office of president is so stressful that it may take a greater toll on your health than a normal life of retirement would  for someone that age. It's also a matter of how sharp he stays, it's possible that he could actually be in good health and still be of sound mind (I'm sure if he had alzheimers he could outthink Obama) but at that point his age may just not be viable anymore. I think we shall have to see, I hope McCain lives a very long time.

40 >>Of course, mortality tables are intended to be used to give an idea of probabilities, and all sorts of things can arise. Yea, like a 3rd fight with cancer. But lets assume that doesn't happen and McCain stays happy and healthy for 8 years. He has already stated what he says he thinks the job of VP entails, asking after his health everyday and going to funerals. In that case, who cares what her views are? Its pretty obvious why he picked her. Its a lot less obvious why anyone thinks it will matter to his administration.

41 If that were the case, wouldn't they have been the biggest backers of McCain during the primary instead of one of his biggest critics?

Only if Mccan is truly the big RINO in this primary, which is the topic of considerable debate.  Mccain is not loyal to the Republican party, that much is clear, and it's not always a bad thing.  But he's pretty much the same man he's always been.  His argument with W Bush over Iraq is similar to his argument with Reagan over Beirut. 

Many other prominent conservatives in the primary were far more RINOish than Mccain.  One pardoned killers with inpunity and had many other liberal policies.  One had flipped on ten issues, ranging from abortion to tax policy, one had cleaned his city of crime, but favored strict gun control.  Mccain had curtailed our freedom of speech and had that comprehensive piece of shit, but his RINO-ness is based mainly on one's personal view of each issue.  If national defense, guns, fiscal responsibility, and fighting corruption are how you define 'Republican', then Mccain was perhaps the least RINO of the prominent candidates.

Mccain just drives critics, I think.  He's an asshole (my kind of asshole, most of the time).  He's no more a RINO than the others, but he gets far more flack for it because he's either too stubborn or too stupid or too great a man to back down.  He was fighting for campaign finance reform for ages, all along pissing everyone off (including me), and driving this RINO image that I think is more a reflection of his honest refusal to pretend.

Does anyone remember Mccain backing down off his Confederate flag attack in 2000?  He opened the piece of paper that looked like he had wadded it up a few times.  Read it in monotone, and then walked off, clearly pissed.  Mccain sucks at modulating his position to the voters.  So his RINO policies are amplified when lessor politicans just lie instead of saying how they feel.

Of course, the other thing I find 'amusing' is that we've been talking about Palin for many months, and the idea that we're opposed to any debate is probably an exaggeration.  Sure, she's got nowhere near Romney's experience.  If anything, it's Romney's experience that ruined his chances.  He had served wildly different peoples and served their ideals in different ways, making his true feelings different to feel certain on.  Does anyone think Palin is wavery on energy or pretty much any other policy?

We do need a discussion of Palin, but we need it to be outside the context of the dishonesty I think we're seeing in the media.  She's got to prove herself to the voters, but she hasn't had that chance yet.  It's  ridiculous to conclude very much about her until she's had her chance.  Her lack of national experience and DC connection is far more of an advantage than a liability, from my POV.  Her consistent mode of serving her community as a normal, everyday person, and the love her people have for her, show that she's got a lot of potential to be a good president today.

What did Clinton or Bush do that Palin couldn't have done as well or better?

42

Meh, I agreed to disagree with you on that one Drew, I'm not gonna give it more effort.  I also have zero problem with someone raising concerns about her abilities in areas that are legitimate issues.  I'm fairly confident she'll do fine in those areas, and she can learn as she goes.

For me, it's that experience is hugely overrated, especially in the political area.  One hopes that she's well informed, of course, but to demand huge amounts of experience, especially from a VP candidate, is utter nonsense.  Personally, I'll take a well-informed person, with good life experiences, and zero political experience over some beltway hack any day.  Palin has more than zero political experience, and she's done well with her posts, so fine.

So yes, ask for proof that she's well informed, and tough enough for the job, by all means.  We'll be getting that proof over the next few months ... or not.  If not ... bleah, more politics as usual, sadly.

43

Guliani slammed Obama today. Video below

http://williamamos.wordpress.com/2008/08/31/guliani-and-liebermann/#respond

44 I find NRO to be almost completely detached from the reality of 'ordinary' people. They think that a CRUISE is somehow the way to meet the masses.

When they are not condescending and elitist ,they are losing track of the BIG PICTURE in order to ride one or another of their personal hobby horses. The 'conservative' movement needs to reach out to the Wal-Mart crowd and its concerns, Not the CRUISE crowd.

What good does it do NOW to run around saying that the VP selection is hopelessly WRONG ? What tactical or strategic purpose can it possibly serve ?

Politics is war by other means, not a pristine debating society. You don't shoot your own leaders in a fit of nuanced persoanl pique and then turn around the next day and lament that the enemy is hanging you from lampposts because you have lost.

As much as I loath Andrew Sullivan at least he knows what he wants to accomplish. He is of course as dishonest as the day is long in doing it but he does not ever make the mistake of firing upon his own troops and then wondering why his side is losing.

NRO is on its way to marginalisation. It's just a matter of time.

45 Entropy,

I'm with you only less solidly so after Palin.

The reason I couldn't get on board with the "But Obama is the worst ever" argument isn't because I don't agree but because a McCain victory would kill conservatism and I think that's more dangerous to the country than Obama in the long run

Palin may short circuit that argument.

46

But Drew - you miss my point. Or at least you evade it.

Do you understand the anger?

We can argue about what constitutes experience or we can argue over this or that. I never told anyone "SHUT UP don't criticize Palin!". I'm not sure anyone told anyone that...

The point of the comments you're responding to was not to stake out one side or the other but to point out the difference.

It's not so much about Palin. It comes to deeper divisions. It's when the manner of criticism against her illustrates a difference of policy priorities that normally begets flamefests even without her.

My point was not to argue the actual difference of policy priorities, (though we can do that) but point out that it is that which is the root of any of this antipathy we are seeing.

Eh? What about that? You follow me? You disagree?

When Mr IraqIraqIraq says Palin has "no experience", Mr ANWRANWRANWR goes ballistic (of course), but it's not over Palin. Alot of the people bitching about her are basing their bitching on their own views of policy and campaign planks ought be the focus. People who think McCain needed to doubledown on everything he was allready doing (Experience, greenie maverickness, Iraq Iraq Iraq), are all in a tizzy claiming hyperbolically that he just gave the election away.

When they say that, how the bloody hell can it be suprising people who wave past Iraq and shout "Drill here, Drill now!" are going to take offense? They're of the opinion McCain just gave himself a fresh new hope, and are suddenly getting a "strange new respect". Of course they're putting on battle gear. But it's not over Palin the person, it's over the policy (and platform) differences. Their divergent views on the VP pick in fact stem from their priority differences and disagreements, and that is what fuels these "personal flames" - just as these topics allways did before she entered the scene.

47 Ace, right now I'd settle for Palin's "inexperience" rather then the "demonstrated experience" of Barry Obama and Joe Biden.

48 Back to Ace's set-up of the topic, I think the scrutiny is quite important as a unifier. In today's media, it is one thing to present an image, a commercial, a group of slogans, or talking points; it is the story that gets people to pay attention and Palin has an intriguing story. Now that she's on the radar the public has to be kept engaged and as an outsider I will remain interested in hearing her out through the convolutions of the campaign.

49 I'd rather be governed by the first name in the Wasilla phone book than by anyone on the masthead of National Review.

50 DrewM, I've bought your argument that Mccain will shift what it means to be a Republican to the left in many respects, but won't it also shift us to the right on some issues?

And you're definitely right that Palin may short circuit the whole argument.  She has no national experience, but she is an old school republican, and would be among the standard bearers for the next 20 years if she doesn't flop.  And with all due respect, who are we supposed to rely on to not push the GOP to the left?  Fred?  I think he's very similar to Palin except that Palin is a good governor.

It sucks that we don't have a strong bunch of Bush conservatives who are able to fight for office.  Bush and the entire compassionate conservative movement seems to be a disaster for cabinet members.

I guess I'm just sincerely confused on what the hell we're supposed to do about the GOP.  How do we both move to the right and have power?  Mccain was fighting with Giuliani, Romney, and Huckabee.  Where is the Ronald Reagan?  Hopefully, Palin is Mccain's way of showing us that he will get a lot of actual Republicans in his white house.  I don't know what better we can hope for.

51

>>I say again: Anyone who's claiming they have no concerns about Sarah Palin's ability to handle foreign policy questions and answer the Readiness to Take Charge question is, well, either fooling themselves or trying to fool others. I love 'er, but the fact is I have concerns.<<

Palin is McCain's gamble.  No doubt.  But I think the readiness question is more a function of fame than of experience.  I think Palin is a lot more savvy than many people think.  She's underestimated simply because she's not well known and is the governor of a state that most know very little about.

The MSM has hit the Wasilla Mayor point, the beauty queen point and the high school basketball point, but don't have much to say about being the governor of the largest state.  In spite what the we've seen in the media, Alaska is a very cosmopolitan place.  I lived there for eight years and was always impressed by the number of people from other countries (there are a lot of Scandinavians - sorry) and the generally expanded world view of the population.  Plus, Alaska is not for sissies.

That's not proof of anything, but I'm probably more optimistic than most that Palin will impress.  In fact, I'm willing to lay money on Palin kicking Biden's ass in the V.P. debates.

That's my story, and I'm stickin' to it.

52 Re: Caribou pic.

I'll be in my bunk. My only regret is that it isn't a baby Harp seal.

53 The reason why we're all so upset is that we know the NROniks think that we're a bunch of trogdolytes, but since they need us to buy the magazine and vote for Republican candidates, we're accustomed to a little deference. They pretend to think we're not yokels and we pretend they actually have principles, like the right to life and the right to bear arms.

Then Brookhiser says, "Down's baby and M-16." K-Lo posts it to the Corner. No one save McCarthy thinks it's offensive.

The mask slips, the gentleman's agreement is breached, and we're entitled to call them the soulless, unprincipled, careerists that they are. 

That's from whence the NRO hate came.

54

My point was not to argue the actual difference of policy priorities, (though we can do that) but point out that it is that which is the root of any of this antipathy we are seeing.

Eh? What about that? You follow me? You disagree?

Entropy,

I think I get it but I don't share it.  A lot of the comments against NRO spoke of 'elitism' or 'DC/NY insiders'.  I'm not a populist so I don't think 'oh, she's just like me, she understands us, I'll vote for her!". That doesn't appeal to me.

People used to say that about Clinton. He was flawed! He had problems like we do, yay! I want the President and VP to be better than the average person.

Now, I'm not saying Palin isn't more talented than most people, she may very well be but the criticisms of NRO sounded anti-elitist and I think you can be worried about Palin without being some sort of snob.

If that wasn't your point, then no, I didn't get it. Sorry.

55 Pretty much I agree with what Ace said above..

My guess is the folks at NRO perhaps were caught offguard by the Palin selection.
Pretty much they have been strong on Romney which I certainly understand.

So?  Some lukewarm response from a couple of the writers there.
No big deal really.
I thought the Editors on Palin was fair enough.

But nah.  Not worth alienating the NRO folks by getting rude
beyond what is needed to make a simple point.

56 I've bought your argument that Mccain will shift what it means to be a Republican to the left in many respects, but won't it also shift us to the right on some issues?

Posted by: Shill at August 31, 2008 05:51 PM (8jYMc)

I doubt it because I bet McCain will move left even where he's currently conservative in order to get a deal. I'm not sure on what issues other than Iraq that McCain will draw a conservative line in the sand and say 'you shall not pass'.

57 McCain is going to focus his campaign on Obama's connection to corrupt Chicago politics.  He needs a mouthpiece who throws that red meat out to the crowd.  He picks said mouthpiece because she has the most anti-corruption experience (and non-Senate experience) he can find.

This is what Vice Presidential candidates do, they attack the top of the other ticket.

They don't negotiate missile treaties with the Russians.  They don't decide the interbank lending rate.  They don't... etc.

Then, once in office, she'll occasionally attack Pelosi while mainly attending to foreign dignitaries.

What is all this other crap we're talking about?  Because it has absolutely no bearing to the job she'll actually be doing during the campaign and then while governing.

If you want to pick a VP based on the 1% chance that McCain will die, fine.  The rest of us feel pretty good making decisions based on the other 99%.

58 Thank you, Ace.

59 Undecided, my ass. Some of those muthafuckas were repeating DNC talking points verbatim.

60

I'm confused - are we debating the debating of the debating of the selection? Or just debating the debating of the selection? Or are we just debating the selection of Palin?

Heh.

I think Ace is actually debating the debating of the selection, and I'm....

Yeah.

I'm debating the debating of the debating of the selection.

61 #55. Agreed.

62 McCain, Palin AND ROMNEY are sharing the stage in the big MO, right now!

"Obama sucks!" yells someone in the crowd.

Oh no, Huckabee is speaking.

63 Other than Brookhiser's idiotic post, no one on the 'Rebutal' thread was able to provide a single objectionable post (sorry Hermit Dave, yours didn't cut it) and his idiocy was smacked down hard by someone on NRO.

Drew, I don't think this is accurate.  If someone else hadn't posted Frum's bitchswipe describing her as merely a "small town mayor", exactly parroting Obaman talking points, deliberately minimizing her experience as Governor, then I would have.  That's the one that pissed me off the most before Brookhiser.  You have "concerns" about her inexperience?  Fine.  And you can expect the Left to minimize or not even acknowledge what experience she does have.  But what possible good faith reason does Frum have to disrespect her by calling a sitting governor a "small town mayor"?

Qwinn

64 Update: Huckabee is not being a douche bag.

65 Update: Gov Palin looks very lovely with her hair down

66 Update: Huckabee introduces the great and former Gov Romney

67 Update: Romney is on fire!

68 Palin does have experience as an executive that none of the other nominees really has including McCain.It's just that the executive experince she has is not that of governing a large populace. It may be belittled that she was a mayor of a small town, but being a succcessful mayor of a small town still requires political skill ,acumen and leadership ability. I think that since that everyone in a small town may actually knows you personally that, it might take more skill and true character to govern at that level. As the libs like to say all politics is local.

69 Some out there may be making the experience arguement in good faith, that is fine, but I suspect others use that approach to cover their snobbery and tribalism. The Nation and Conservatism need more people like Palin in positions of power. She has earned the respect and admiration of the people of Alaska. That goes a long way with me. The Presidency is a test of character and judgement. What about her life and her acomplishments signals doubt? There is no perfect training course for the Presidency, but governing a State is the closest thing.

70 I'm not sure on what issues other than Iraq that McCain will draw a conservative line in the sand and say 'you shall not pass'.

Posted by: DrewM. at August 31, 2008 06:00 PM (hlYel)

Pork barrel spending?  Earmarks?  He'll probably try to shrink or eliminate the corn ethanol boondoggle, which he opposes and always has.  He opposed the medicare drug expansion, so I expect he's not gonna sign on to more expansion of entitlement programs.

He's going to fight to get congress to authorize and fund a large expansion of our active duty military forces.

right off the top of my head

71 I have it on good authority that Camille Paglia's daughter is pregnant.  By a warthog.

72

http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=NWQ2YzMyNGViMmIyY2I0MTliYjRjYmU4MmMxOWZjODA=

 

Excellent info on Palin's security credentials...it's a really short article but very interesting.  It's an NRO reader's reply to Jonah Goldberg and really reassuring to me that she knows what she's doing cuz she's been doing it.

73 Update: McCain introduces Palin and reminds the donkeys out there why he picked her.

74 So what if we have any doubts as to her credentials? I'm sure as hell not gonna vote Osama bin Biden!!

75

Bart--huh? where?

Thank goodness Romney is there and delivering a stem-winder.  Hopefully the cornerites will shut their assinine pieholes now. 

I'm still pissed off at Brookheiser.  I'm really happy I never bought any of his books. 

76 C-SPAN

77

I think I get it but I don't share it.  A lot of the comments against NRO spoke of 'elitism' or 'DC/NY insiders'.  I'm not a populist so I don't think 'oh, she's just like me, she understands us, I'll vote for her!". That doesn't appeal to me.

Err. I don't think you get it.

That's what I'm saying.. I'm not telling you that you have to be a populist. I'm not telling you to like Palin.

I'm just saying - yeah, that's what this is actually about.

It's a bunch of populists calling NRO elitists. Again - not about which side you take. I'm just saying that's the antipathy. Not Palin herself. A bunch of populists are calling NRO elitists because NRO took an elitist (rather then a populist) stance on Palin. They may be bickering over her, but the root disagreement is one of populism vs. elistism. (That is, I think, one of several divisions going on at once).

It's not like people are all asking the same question, and coming to 2 different answers on whether Palin was good pick. A good bit of the bickering you're going to see is gonna be over what question we should be asking to judge her on. Ace is arguing whether or not we should be allowed to ask questions. I think it's not the argument. The argument is what questions are the ones that matter?

As for me, I was a Fred Thompson guy. He didn't have a ton of experience either, did he?

I regarded his lack of time on the inside, and indeed, his sort of half-assed desire for the job, as positives then, just as I do now.

I liked that he could take-or-leave the office. It tells me he wasn't all hellbent and consumed with desire to wield the power of the Presidency, and that tells me he might just have been equipped to actually handle it.

People who lust for power shouldn't be given it. Had I a time machine and I could go back and be a Founder, I'd have to give some serious thought to whether or not I'd argue in favor of Lottery instead of Democracy in picking our executive.

But of course I also say this being so utterly disgusted and fed up over the last few years that I've completely given up on politics as the whole.

Having just washed my hands of it, I'm not ready to go getting them dirty again so quickly. Not for McCain. No way - I don't care. I just don't care.

But I live in Illinois. Illinois will go for Obama, period end of story, get the hell out of here. If I lived in Ohio or Florida? I wouldn't have been voting for McCain. Even in a swing state - fuck McCain.

But now with Palin? Were I actually living in a state where my decision was of any consequence whatsoever, I might actually have to seriously contemplate that one. I don't know.

I can tell you the idea of Palin '12 or '16 strikes me as very intriguing. But by then she'll have all the experience she needs and we'll know who she is. I hope, in '12 or '16, she is still Palin the commercial fisherman's wife and not Palin the DC insider. Less experience can be more. I'm a term limit guy. I don't want them getting too much experience. In and out. They stay in too long, they go bad.

Rarely have I ever seen anyone get even this far in the run for President, who hadn't allready gone bad long ago.  So this may indeed be a (modern) historic moment, and not because of her ovaries.

78 I'm hoping that the "qualification" debate always keeps in mind that Obama heads his ticket and she is in the number two position on McCain's.  The difference is huge.  Their resumes are stunningly similar.  The job they seek is vastly different.

79 Palin: "Thank you so much, Missouri."

80 I had to laugh when McCain was running the "greatest celebrity in the world" commercials. The comparisons to the Beatles -- at that point in time-- were correct, as well was the Party view that he was "not ready". But the terms have shifted and Palin is the rockstar candidate. And a candidate like that gets fans, and since Clinton the races are basically all about selling X in order to garner more fans. And I hate to say this but John Lennon was more popular and more influential than Ronald Reagan ever was. He just wasn't controlling a kerjillion dollar budget with all the raw power that goes with being President of the United States. That's what I meant about the 30-million vote gorilla. But McCain's basic point was and is correct: the political rockstar is not ready to lead. Unless someone can demonstrate that he/she has commanded ground troops, I don't think it's a disputable point. McCain wins because he IS ready.

81 Palin: "McCain put a lot of trust me in choosing me for the ticket. I'm going to show that his trust is well-placed."

82 Tomorrow the AP will run that photo with an oil derrick photo shopped on top of the caribou.

83 I'm a lot older than you Drew and the point is she had lots of experience, but they STILL QUESTIONED whether she had enough experience. I remember it well.

84 Thanks, Bart.  I've got CSPAN on now.

85 The woman has poise.

86 Thanks for the heads up, Bart. One thing is not in dispute. She is a far better speechifier than McCain.

87 Tomorrow the AP will run that photo with an oil derrick photo shopped on top of the caribou.

And then Reuters will photochop that old Palestinian woman crying in the backgorund.

88 I call bullshit that photo is clearly doctored. Here is the original.

89

Joe Biden was appointed VP by the DNC for one  reason only - The DNC recognized Obama was/is a  complete empty suit,  and has no experience in either domestic,  or  foreign policy matters.

Biden has supposedly "filled" the foreign policy gap (LOL). Right now, the Democrats need a 2nd VP -  to "fill in"  Obama's domestic experience gap. That way, the Obamamessiah can concentrate on the "big picture"....all of that Hope and Change "stuff",  that's so critical.

'Executive experience', you ask?  Governor Palin oversees a $6.7 BILLION Alaska state budget (for fiscal year 2007). But how can that compare to Obama's experience?  After all, didn't Obama recently go to Germany and pronounce himself a "Citizen of the World"? I ask you, what's managing $6.7 billion compared to that feat?  (Perhaps Biden will call upon his own vast executive experiences to explain everything to the rest of us.)

90

One major plus:  By the end of this long weekend, everyone is gonna be sick to death of this particular debate / pissing match.  I've already got it completely out of my system.

The five stages of Palin, for morons:

1) She's hot!

2) She's really hot!

3) BUNK!

4) NRO sucks caribou balls!

5) Yeah, cool, whatever, I like her .... where's the Val-u-rite?

91 In the millions of words spilled over the Internet since Friday, I read something about Palin negotiating with Canada over a pipeline.  Can't remember the source but if true, it's more impressive than playing rock star before a stadium full of imbecilic Germans or getting the Cold War and GWOT wrong as a 30-year Senator.  Just because of its geography, Alaska is more dependent on international trade than most states.  I'll bet she's also been involved in international fishing rights disputes.  One should also remember that Alaska's population seems to double as soon as the cruise ships begin sailing into Ketchikan every April.  There's also a huge tourist trade from Japan and Korea into Alaska.  Think of the immigration and security issues that Alaska has to contend with based just on the tourist trade.  There is also the security issue of safeguarding the oilfields, pipeline, and shipping lanes.  Palin, or at least the Alaska state government she's in charge of, must be involved in a wider array of international issues that the government of, say, Kansas.  Certainly, she has more extensive foreign policy experience than the average arm twister and bag man community organizer for the Chicago Democratic political machine.

92 Now Gov Palin is touching on some foreign issues.

Niiiiice.

93 So who on the VP list had foreign policy expertise or experience, Huckabee, Giuliani, Pawlenty, Romney (and don't give me Lieberman)? I'm sure the concerns couldn't be driven by gender, surely not.

94

JackStraw, I replied to you on the other thread.....I like Romney, more now than I did several months ago, and that's a conclusion I reached a few weeks ago.  The man is impressive.  I hope he's willing to accept a cabinet post.  (it's my opinion it's there if he's interested) If not, I hope he wins either Kerry's or Kennedy's US Senate seat.

 

95 Someone should photoshop Bidens' mug on that caribou.

96 It does look like that caribou got into a huge vat of orange kool-aide

97 As far as Palin vs Obama: if one looks at their records, what one sees is that Obama runs for office to run for office.  Once he got into the state legislature, he started running for Congress.  He failed, but then some of the usual Chicago crowd gave him a push toward the Senate.  He hasn't done a damn thing in any of those offices but protect his image so that he could run for the next one.  Once he gets to the White House probably his first act will be lobbying to have UN Secretary-General seat held open for him come 2017. 

Palin on the other hand has had significant accomplishments in every office she's worked her way into. 

Do I worry that she's not ready to be C-in-C if McCain pops a blood vessel in 2010?  No.  Two reasons.  One, she'll inherit McCain's team.  We shouldn't be worried about Palin as VP, we should be worried about who McCain picks for State, Defense, EPA, etc.  Secondly, I think a day of caribou hunting is probably a damn good way to engage someone like Putin.  Leadership is in large part about being comfortable with who you are.

Finally, think of the Secret Service guys - if I were a black-suit-and-earpiece kind of guy, I'd be thinking the Palins just sound like a lot more fun.

98 You probably think that "Here come old flattop" is a reference to an aircraft carrier. Fools!

99 Beldar addresses and destroys numerous complaints about Palin including the false accusation that she leveled a windfall tax against the oil companies and he also goes into her insistence that there be open bidding and that contracts done in secret be renegotiated.

http://beldar.blogs.com/beldarblog/

100

Romney should be SecTreasury, if he's willing to take it.  Given the housing shitstorm, bank credit problems, call for bailouts, etc. SecTreasury is going to be one of the single most important positions in the new administration.  Much more important than VP.

Romney has all the credentials for SecTreasury.  I hope it's offered and he accepts.

101 Palin told that carbou wedding party to keep the noise down. Did they listen? I agree. Putin will take more note of this photo than one of Barry chopping arugula.

102 Qwinn and others,

I'll give you the fact that calling her a 'small town mayor' is stupid. My guess is it's more a mistake than a swipe as he used it again in his National Post column. My guess is he isn't so much of a McCain hater that he's willing to look like an idiot. He made a mistake, knock him for it but it happens.

That said, I think the substance of his critique in his blog post (I didn't read the full column) is legitimate. I don't think focusing on a factual error to the exclusion of taking on his thesis is helpful to anyone.

103 What is with you people?

If I can get over Romney not being chosen, then anybody can!
http://townhall.com/columnists/HughHewitt/2008/08/31/palin_by_comparison

Besides, Sarah Palin being the VP candidate can only help one person...

104 It's a bunch of populists calling NRO elitists. Again - not about which side you take. I'm just saying that's the antipathy. Not Palin herself.

Entropy,

Then maybe that's why I'm not impressed by people getting up set at NRO. If that's the choice, I guess I'm an elitist.

I don't want 'an average hockey mom' as VP (or hockey dad for that matter). Now, I didn't coin that phrase, Palin did.

FTR, I don't think she's anything of the sort but if that's part of her charm, it's a part I'm immune to.


I can tell you the idea of Palin '12 or '16 strikes me as very intriguing. But by then she'll have all the experience she needs and we'll know who she is. I hope, in '12 or '16, she is still Palin the commercial fisherman's wife and not Palin the DC insider.

I'm with you there.

105 "I call bullshit that photo is clearly doctored. Here is the original."

No, no, here's the original.

106 u bastard!

107 I can tell you the idea of Palin '12 or '16 strikes me as very intriguing. But by then she'll have all the experience she needs and we'll know who she is. I hope, in '12 or '16, she is still Palin the commercial fisherman's wife and not Palin the DC insider.

I'm with you there.

Posted by: DrewM. at August 31, 2008 06:51 PM (hlYel)

Um, Drew, that's a populist sentiment.

108 funky chicken,

No it's not.

In 4 or 8 years, she'll have far more experience and we'll know a lot more about her. I don't think experience/populism is a binary thing. I don't like career politicians but I don't like novices either, at least not at the level of President or VP.

109

"We're six years into the modern Thirty Years War, "

Fucking ugh,

Like the Nambla thing at Weekly standard, I know what he's saying but fucking really?  can't you PLEASE not get the kids all riled up?

110 funky- >>I like Romney, more now than I did several months ago, and that's a conclusion I reached a few weeks ago. The man is impressive. Good to know. Its a shame that for most of the campaign, when it actually mattered, far too many where willing to believe the caricature that was made of him and his record. He's a great guy with unbelievable skills and values and he didn't deserve the shit he got from the people on his own side of the aisle. He has worked harder in defeat than anyone, a testament to his character. He won't be taking either Kerry's or Kennedy's seat. He has already run against both of them, gave Kennedy the biggest scare he has ever had. You rarely win in MA as a Republican. More rarely than in any other state in the Union. If you run as a conservative, you never win. Period. You run as a moderate and then govern as a conservative if you are Romney. The reward you get is to be called a flip flopper and slimed by your own party. It was Kerry and Kennedy who started the flip flopping horse shit. Remember that next time you think about using it. Next time you have a free moment, do a little googling on Big Dig, MA Turnpike Authority and Romney. See what reform looks like in the most Dem state in the country. One thing for sure, you will never see a Kennedy-Romney immigration bill.

111

Then maybe that's why I'm not impressed by people getting up set at NRO. If that's the choice, I guess I'm an elitist.

Well I didn't mean to imply that was just it - It's a part of it.

There's other issues too. The point is if you say "Palin has no experience!" the implication is that Foreign Policy experience is all that matters, and energy policy experience doesn't count.

If you're a Foreign Policy minded guy, sure. But you will piss off energy policy people when you say that.

Because, implicated in your critique of the VP, is a policy attack. A guy who doesn't give a rats ass about energy policy but is a neocon, is gona hate Palin. So he'll slam her.

A guy who doesn't give much thought to what's happening in fooboostan, but feels the pain at the pump, is going to get irrate at that. Not over the person, but over the method of critique. He's going to say "You're just a stupid neocon hellbent on invading Iran who doesn't understand we need a better energy policy!" and off we go.

112

When you say she's inexperienced, implicit in that is a statement about what sort of experience matters, and what sort of experience isn't worthy to even be considered 'experience'.

You're gonna start an argument over what kind of experience matters. And that argue exists independant of the chick in question. It's gonna wind up being about the ideological difference upon which your view is predicated.

Look at this : if someone said "Palin sucks because she's not communist enough", would people attack them for saying that? Yes.

Attack because he criticized Palin? No.

Attack because he's a goddamn communist. 'You idiot communist, communism sucks STFU'. Not really about Palin persay - we don't even disagree - she's NOT a communist. We just disagree about whether that's a requirement...

113

Other than Brookhiser's idiotic post, no one on the 'Rebutal' thread was able to provide a single objectionable post

How about this one? Desparate, he doesn't need a VP, warm bucket of piss...

114 It is conservative for Brookheiser to be skeptical of new faces, to want more experience and to want victory in the GWOT. But it is unconservative pie-in-the-sky to hold out for hypothetical perfect candidates, to wish to replace one's voter base two months before an election and to think that McCain can win on GWOT issues alone. NRO is hardly monolithic and Andy McCarthy already answered Brookheiser well. ps; Mr. Brookheiser, you only have til midnight to contribute to Palin and that guy she's running with.

115 Entropy,

I think I'm on solid ground when I say most people's conception of the Vice Presidency isn't being an energy policy Tsar. I think it has more to do with being ready to be President.

There's simply no way around the fact that she (or anyone with her current resume) doesn't have a record of positions on the major issues of the day (beyond perhaps energy). Yes, her biography (or anyone with that biography) suggests certain tendencies but that's all we have.

I don't think it's elitist to point that out but if it is, so be it.

116

She has more experience (for instance) of taking out and fighting the corrupt RINO fatcats that plague this party than perhaps anyone else in in this country  the whole presidential scene.

Um, there is a profound difference between us and the donks here, folks.  Note the reference to "this party". We know our guys are far from perfect and want people like Sarah Palin to shake things uo and kick some ass.  The donks, on the other hand, see corruption as an election issue to use against the other side, not something they seriously want to tackle themselves... I mean why the hell would they want to screw their own power base?  I am not kidding - they are sustained by corruption, as any fool knows. 

We suffer from it, they preserve it!  Big difference.

The Dems that don't know that are fools.  The ones that do, are crooks.

117 From the Frumster: So this is the future of the Republican party you are looking at: a future in which national security has bumped down the list of priorities behind abortion politics, gender politics, and energy politics.

Drew:  I think energy politics is directly tied to national security in this age.  Frum also states as to national security:   Barack Obama at least balanced his inexperience with Mr. Biden's experience.

I don't want my security and that of my family to depend on Biden. What makes people think that Palin can't surround her self with better advisors than him?   Wasn't that one of Reagan's strengths? I think there is an unstated bias here regarding women and national security. We sure didn't think Thatcher was a light weight. And I know other women who would not back down or blink when push comes to shove.  

118

 I think it has more to do with being ready to be President.

I disagree. I don't know of any presidents who really pick their VP that way. They pick them for what they add to the ticket. Which is unfortunate, because what the major effect is, mostly, they pick their successor (at least as far as nomination is concerned).

This, however, has not even been so in over 8 years. Bush did not pick Cheney to be President, ever. Not after him, and not in case he accidentally croaked.

Bush picked Cheney for what Cheney could do for him as an administrator, whithin his cabinet. Cheney never intended to run and Bush never intended to die.

The plan was never for him to be the POTUS, but to aid the POTUS who would be Bush.

119

JackStraw--I dunno about Romney's not being able to win a US Senate seat in MA.  Is Deval Patrick still making a fool of himself underperforming on the job?  Romney smells like a rose in comparison.  And US Senator is a state-wide race...

The flip flop stuff came about because Romney got some terrible advice from folks like Rove and others ... in 2005-2006 he said he thought McCain-Kennedy was OK.  He wasn't interested in acting like gay marriage is a major threat to MA or the USA. (I agree)  He wasn't interested in being an anti-abortion crusader. (I agree)  There was even the unfortunate pic of him at a Planned Parenthood event.  But somehow people were able to convince him that he had to change those positions to win the nomination.  My guess is that those same advisors told him to go after McCain in the debates to satisfy the base.  He should sue those advisors for malpractice, because all that stuff cost him the nomination.

Now that he's out on his own, I like him much more.  Kind of like Bush when he speaks off the cuff.

But he'll make one hell of a Sec Treas if he'll take the job.

120 MamaAJ,

I hate to come off as the house defender of everything NRO but Coffin was referring to the office not Palin. Plus, that 'warm bucket of piss' is a play on the famous John Nance Garner quote.

Whether or not Coffin is right about how much influence Palin will have, only time will tell. Personally, I'd like to hear from McCain about what role he envisions for Palin. It's something Palin was wondering about not too long ago.

“[A]s for that VP talk all the time, I’ll tell you, I still can’t answer that question until somebody answers for me what is it exactly that the VP does every day? I’m used to being very productive and working real hard in an administration. We want to make sure that that VP slot would be a fruitful type of position, especially for Alaskans and for the things that we’re trying to accomplish up here for the rest of the U.S. before I can even start addressing that question.”

Apparently she liked what she heard.

Personally, I've been saying for awhile that McCain's VP won't be like Gore, Cheney, or even Mondale. McCain is fully formed in the public's mind. He didn't need gravitas or off setting 'DC' experience. I don't think he was looking for a Prime Minister or partner. It doesn't seem like it's his style.

121 Entropy,

I was talking about the public's perception, not the presidential candidate's reasons.

If Cheney was there to be a PM/Super Chief of Staff type. What's Palin's role? Attract conservatives and women? That's political, what about after the election? If you say energy, keep in mind she disagrees with McCain on ANWR. I don't think McCain doesn't think he knows everything he needs to know and that he's going to learn from Palin (or anyone he named as VP).

122

From the Frumster: So this is the future of the Republican party you are looking at: a future in which national security has bumped down the list of priorities behind abortion politics, gender politics, and energy politics

SEE?? I can't call him a douchebag?? How come I can't call him a douchebag? I wanna call him a douchebag.

Not because he doesn't like the Naughty Librarian - fuck the Naughty Librarian for moment - no not that way, I mean forget about her for a sec. Forget about her.

YES! The future of the GOP needs to be about energy politics and other issues, NOT the WOT. You can't milk that shit forever dude, or people are going to start believing the democrats when they see neocons want to wage war forever and then use the war as way to get elected - because only they can fix the war they keep causing.

Foreign policy, to me, takes a huge backseat to domestic policy. The level of threat we face right now - while real - is standard. It is the everyday generic level of threat. It is the same level of threat we allways face, allways will face, allways have faced. We've never NOT faced some threats abroad.

For this reason, I want to say, to Frum, 'You sir, are a douchebag who needs to STFU. I'm sicking of hearing about national security. Yes, we need it - we ALWAYS need it, you need more issues then just that.

Besides, most Americans don't give a rats ass about what happens in fubustan if the America they know and love isn't around anymore to be impacted by it anyway.'

But I guess I'll just bite my tongue and not say any of that.

123 SEE?? I can't call him a douchebag?? How come I can't call him a douchebag? I wanna call him a douchebag.

You can do whatever you want but I don't think because he has a different conception of what issues are important than you do that he is a de facto douchebag.

It seems convincing people you are right and he is wrong is what political parties do.

124

I'm disappointed with Brookhiser and the snootier, more manicured types at NRO. As Dougf says, "Politics is war by other means, not a pristine debating society." They're all caught up in analyzing sub-points and nuances and checking their manicures.

Do they want Obama to win? If not, they must agree that Palin was a genius pick. $7 million in a couple of days proves it. She's electrified the base, something McCain couldn't quite do.

Also, they miss what matters most.

McCain has Character.

Palin has Character.

Obama and Biden have none.

125 Glad to see Paglia agrees with me, we blogged (and commented that here) when the news of her pick broke.

126 Why must it be one or the other? I want to address our energy issues  and kill our enemies.

127 A NROnick defends Palin's experience (mostly). Of course he does it by invoking Teddy Roosevelt, so I'm pretty sure he's supportive of her but I can't be sure he's done her any real favor.

128 Bitch puts meat on the table for her family.  That makes her twice the man that Biden or Oshitboy or Clinton or Reid or Obey or Hoyer or all the rest of those suckers of cock are.  The answer to survival is fucking meat.  Woodcutting is a good skill, as is tearing the balls off of your opponent. 

I don't know if she can cut wood, and I don't know yet if she can tear Biden's balls off.  But she can sure as fuck bring home the bacon.  That's a catch, whether for her husband (Todd, you Magnificent Bastard) or for the country.  She's up right now.

Suck it you naysayers, and metro-blow-job-givers (Andi?) and other naysayers.  Bitch puts meat on the table.  She's a man, man.  And God knows we need one this year...

129

What's Palin's role? Attract conservatives and women? That's political

Pretty much. Every politician, almost without fail (maybe Bush is an exception, which wouldn't be a stretch because he's allways been 'politically challenged' (read: retard)).

I don't really care what Palin's role in McCain's administration is. All I know is

1) can't be bad. Whatever extent she influences him, it can't be worse the 100% pure unadulterated McCain. Worst case scenario.

2) He's picking his successor (as far as GOP nomination is concerned, assuming he wins).

2 is all I care about. Like I said, I don't want McCain to be president - I don't want a McCain administration - not with ANY VP.

But the idea of a Palin administration - meaning next time round, morons won't elect Huckleberry, we'll get Palin for sure...

This is almost a fair deal, in exchange for voting for the prick... or in my case, at least hoping he wins. Palin '12 or '16 has me hoping McCain wins. Maybe. I mean, I'm considering it. Or... I would consider if I my vote mattered.

Before now I was vacillating between "God I want to see Obama lose" and "God I want to see McCain lose" on a biweekly basis.

What's any other VP pick gonna do? It all depends on McCain. I don't think McCain's VP role changes depending on who he nominates. No difference from anyone else there, from Romney to Hugo Chavez.

130

See, I'm not really a populist either.

In fact I've lost faith in the populace's ability to tell it's ass from a whole in the ground.

Not that the elitists know any better though.

That is the catch: They're all equally moronic.

So I'm OK with risk. Spin the wheel. Throw a dart at a phone book. Maybe we'll get lucky...

All I know is, what we've been doing lately? Not working.

131

Oh, yeh, Drew, I didn't think she was calling Palin that. You asked for objectionable posts and that was one that I thought was pretty rude and, as several other writers have done, skips from mayor to governor without mentioning the oil commission job and her actions there.

My opinion of NRO comes from a lot of things over the last year or two. It's hard to pull them all up at the snap of my fingers, though.

132 Don't underestimate Palin's pull on the blue-collar Democrats, not just women - the hunters, snowmobilers, off-roaders, shooters who might back a Clinton as the devil they know but see regulation and restriction in everything Democrats do.

133 MamaAJ,

Ah.

If it is rude, it's rude to McCain, IMO. 

BTW-She's a he. Coffin was counsel to Dark Lord and Emperor Cheney (Evil Be Upon Him), so you may want to be careful in what you say about him.

134

You can do whatever you want but I don't think because he has a different conception of what issues are important than you do that he is a de facto douchebag.

Dude you must be new here.

Since when don't I call anyone who disagrees with me a douchebag? Come on! This is AoSHQ not some hoity toity place of sophisticated debate, like, uh.. Geraldo or Jerry Springer.

Every knows no one changes their mind based upon the rantings of some jackass on the internet. Sure, I could spell out a long and thoughtful rebuttal that treated him with respect but begged to disagree...

But dude, douchebag is only 9 letters and porn don't download itself. 

135

Here's my problem with NRO.  Sure, if you don't agree, you have the right.  But they complained about McCain not being conservative enough, he actually makes someone that makes the base happy (consider those millions in the bank the past couple of days  as her immediate contribution to helping win the race.)

 

Like entropy, I was not enthused with McCain.  I wrote here and other venues that if Hillary and McCain were the candidates, I was voting Hillary, and if it was Obama, I was staying home. 

 

But Palin is the spoonful of sugar that makes the McCain medicine go down. Would I prefer that she were a 2 term governor, sure, but not many, not even at NRO, were saying the same things about Bobby Jindal when his name was floated.  You run with the candidates you've got - Zombie Reagan is ineligible for the Vice Presidency.  Who else do we have?  

 

136 Nancy Reagan.

137 Also agin NRO - make the arguments on our own terms, not the Kostards and certainly don't be providing avenues of attack against our candidates. 

138 funky- I'm sorry and please don't take this the wrong way, in terms of MA politics, you just don't know what you are talking about. You need to stop projecting about you think the world is or what you want the world to be and realize that sometimes people have to deal with the circumstances they have. John McCain should have just walked out of the Vietnamese prison he was in. That's how dumb it sounds for those of us who live in MA to hear you people who live in red states tell us to what Romney just should have done. You simply have no clue what the environment here is. >>Is Deval Patrick still making a fool of himself underperforming on the job? Of course he is. To you. Not to the moonbats who represent the majority of the voting public in this state by a wide, wide margin. So? >>Romney smells like a rose in comparison. Yea, I know. And guess what, if Romney had run for re-election against Patrick, he would have lost. He flip flopped and became a conservative. Is any of this getting through? >>The flip flop stuff came about because Romney got some terrible advice from folks like Rove and others Ok, now you are proving you just don't know what you are talking about. You're just flat wrong on this. I'm not going to keep arguing about what I lived through as opposed to what you heard on a blog. >>He wasn't interested in acting like gay marriage is a major threat to MA You don't know how silly you sound when you say this. Take a good guess why excitable Andi, a guy who spends half a year living in MA, is so angry at Romney. You really, really, really need to learn the facts and stop spewing crap you heard online. I live here. Bart lives here. No sentient being who lived through the gay marriage battle would think Romney didn't fight it tooth and nail. It would be like me saying McCain was against the surge. That's how flat wrong you are on this issue. >>He wasn't interested in being an anti-abortion crusader He vetoed the only anti-life legislation that came before him which is what got the flip flopper crap started. Seriously, do you know anything about his record. At all? Let me tell you what anti-abortion crusaders are called in this state. They are called, who? Jesus, even McCain, who ran in a very safe red state, said he didn't want to overturn Roe v Wade before he decided to run for pres in 2000. I guess that major flip doesn't matter to you. >>And US Senator is a state-wide race... I think I just said, Romney ran against both Kennedy and Kerry. He came closer than anyone ever has to defeating Kennedy in the bluest of blue states against the longest serving Dem in the Senate. Do yourself a favor. Take a look at how many "state wide" Republican officer holders there are. Tell me how many national Republicans office holders there are from MA. Let me give you a hint. There are none. ZERO. NADA. DONUT. NOT A SINGLE ONE. Are you actually listening to someone who lives here or would you rather keep repeating the same wrong crap you have for the last year? Its ok if you want to keep slamming Romney with false arguments and saying Romneyites are the ugliest people around long after the race has been over and Romney has been raising money and campaigning for McCain. Just don't expect me to agree with you or ever vote for McCain. I, and lots of Romneyites I know, are ugly that way.

139 101 eman: I wonder if that is why Drudge now has a pic of Putin hunched over a dead tiger: "so a woman in America hunts moose. Men hunt bigger game"

140 I echo what Jackstraw said about MA. I've lived in MA for 50 years and Republicans survive here like people hiding from Skynet. Republicans get elected Governor only because enough people don't want Boston to start collectivising the farms.

141

It's ironic that so many on the left have more of a problem with this picture than with the death (pre- or post-term) of a fellow human being.  Who's teaching that ethics class anyway?

142 >>I've lived in MA for 50 years and Republicans survive here like people hiding from Skynet. I'm stealing that one.

143

Drew-

With regard to this "hockey mom" thing, yes, Sarah is the one who mentioned it, but she did it in a particular context.  She wasn't claiming to be nothing more than a "hockey mom" now; rather, she was saying that's what she was before she got involved in politics.

144 My problem is less with Palin than with McAsswipe. She has a genuine record of domestic reform and fighting corruption, at least against the GOP. Johnny plucked her as a figleaf to use her successes to cover up his own selfserving ornery assholery on energy and piss-poor legislation on key issues {McC-Feingold/Kennedy/Leiberman/Soros--you name it} From my POV, however, the GOP has a record of self-policing corruption within and not rewarding it as the Dems do. What we need is someone to police McCain !! That's especially true on free speech, and the borders. Palin has no record of accomplishment there, which is why McC picked her. If he succeeds on killing free speech and immigration laws, he kills the GOP too eventually. Conservativism is not about oil and gas and corruption therefrom--but that's all that Palin brings { along with cute photos}. Big picture: this is the Viva La Amnestia ticket that Soros wants and we're not allowed to criticize that in some quarters.

145 As an ex-military officer, well educated engineer and some one who has spent 1/2 of his career off-shore I have always felt qualified to make decisions based on the best available information and my experienced judgement. However, that said, I don't understand why there is now an "experience" litmus test regarding who can be CIC and President. Our founding fathers set only two criteria (IIRC) - be natural born and 35 years of age. Jimmy Carter was an engineering graduate of the USNA and a former Governor - pretty good experience, eh? How about LBJ and Harry Truman - lots of executive experience there, eh? I think in this day and age it is not experience per se but judgement - that is the one thing Obama lacks in spades as far as I am concerned. Palin however, has demonstrated her judgement in her reforming both State and Republican party politics in Alaska as well as standing on her social and religious principles regarding marriage, motherhood, family and morality. I'll take her judgement, her desire and her life experience as a mother of 5 living in a tough damn state over some mamby-pamby Chicago political thug who has no personal exclusion as to how to pick his friends and associates.

146

For the most part, I see a reasonable debate. At Kos and Huff, not so much.

147 You're overlooking a key point about the Caribou picture. (read this on some other blog). It's not just that Palin hunted down a 'bou. She's showing her daughter how to do it!

148 and I never come here for reasonable

149

I'm willing to give her the benfit of the doubt until and IF she proves otherwise.  The caribou picture is one of the reasons and it's not populist, it's based on what I've read about her personal history and what I believe her positions on the issues will be because of what I've read.  That pictures just seals the deal.

Oh, and my sister, who never talks about politics for fun, called me yesterday to talk about Gov. Sarah Palin.  I'd trust my sister to run the country more than McCain or Obama  and she doesn't know half what they "know" about current events.  I trust her judgement and her ability to see what is right.  That is exactly what I see so far in Palin.  First principles matter and they lead to the right places. 

 

150 I agree about the Corner, it's been much more pro than con on Palin.  I'm just curious where Derb will come down on it, since in a lot of ways she's the closest he's ever going to get to his beloved Ron Paul.

And on the foreign policy/CiC issue, just think of it this way:  would you rather have Obama as CiC with all the advisers that he appoints, or would you rather have Palin take over as CiC for McCain with all the advisers that McCain has appointed?  Absolute no brainer for me.

151 As long as she ate what she killed, im cool with it

152

Tom Maguire at JOM is taking the anti Palin NRO line as well

I agree with some of the analysis on the experience angle, but the bottom line is that a hail mary was needed in this overwhelmingly stacked election and this was a damn good one

Now I will cease and forever desist from sports metaphors

153

Is it important to anyone that Palin actually did shit, instead of just talking about doing shit (obama)?

I would think this would be significant

154

And her vice presidential appointment could be an 'acknowledged' foreign affairs expert, you know, to go along with the 1-2 years experience she'd have gained as VP before McCain's (fantasy) heart-attack death, Dudley.

155

Looks like a neck-head shot...Weatherby 7mm.

Nice. All meat saved.

156

Hmm. I wrote to Shannen; yes, I was polite (I had to edit it twice, but I got it framed in an acceptably polite fashion). Got a nice, polite reply, too. And the NRO group knows exactly how the base feels about Palin ...I gave him one guess, and he came back with the correct answer. He knew.

Is she ...damn, I hate to say it aloud over the innertubes. But we all asked that question of ourselves, didn't we? Not because she was the choice, but because we had a who-the-fuck moment when we heard the name, and being good little morons, started doing the homework. And her record started us thinking about ....

And we didn't just like what we saw in her record. We fuckin' loved what we saw in her record, didn't we? And ...her record reminded us of someone. Well  ...is she ...? - Well, we'll see then, won't we?

I was NOT going to vote McCain (and I would've - gladly - voted Hillary against the smug little bastard: believe I made that principled argument before anyone else here, actually). And. I've told the RNC and the McCain campaign to fuck-off with every request for money ...my last R contribution was to Fred's campaign.

Well, almost. My last contribution was actually ...to McCain's campaign. On Friday. AFTER I spent a few hours online researching "Palin, Sarah". Already ok'd it with wifie to make another donation, actually (and we're working stiffs: we don't just effing give our money away lightly).

Because ...with his choice of Palin ...McCain gave the Party back to conservativism and the conservative base. Which she - undeniably is (and that's why the lefties are going so batshit crazy ...and that's also why I was so pissed at the several posts at NRO on the isue).

For Sarah Palin is undeniably a conservative.

And that is the only fucking qualification I care about. I'm not being a fricking populist (which I readily admit to being), or saying that I love her Everyperson-ism (which of course I fucking love: what's not to love about anything that we see revealed about her personal beliefs in her family history).

Palin represents the future of the Republican party and the future is - now, again - based upon sound conservative principles ...and McCain gave that back after winning it fair & square (surprised the holy shit out o' me, too, the crafty old fox: he knew the base would like her, and finally read the tea leaves right about him needing the base). She'll be president, after. (Camille Paglia got that right! at least ...well before those other morons at NRO did, too ...well, save Steyn: I'm sure he did a jig when he heard.)

Qualifications? Meh. Read her fracking record. She'll make a fine Veep. She's smart, she's principled, she's grounded ...and she's a damn fine lookin' woman too (with a hunk for a hubby ...according to my wife, who gets final say in such). And she's charming to boot. Imagine that.

She'll pick up any other frackin' qualifications she needs along the way. (Who wasn't surprised (and proud) when Bush made that speech before the ruined Towers that day? That's the day he started to become ...qualified.)

She'll make an equally fine President when the time comes...and if the tides of history run the bloody way they're seeming to be runnin', and if and if ...well, the opportunity may arise for her to be a great president. Then, and only then, we'll know "for sure".

What I really see there ...what we all see there ...is promise. Not the false promise of the One clothed in pseudo-religious changiness ...but something different, something better ...something that reminds me of ....

By gawd I want to do a jig again just thinkin' on't (which I swear I did last Friday, just before postin' my custom to the McCain campaign).

You go, girl. (And may I politely suggest that certain of of you pundits at NRO try getting your head out of your lower, nether region.)

Indeed.

157 You could see some blunt force trauma on that caribou.

158

This is almost a fair deal, in exchange for voting for the prick... or in my case, at least hoping he wins. Palin '12 or '16 has me hoping McCain wins. Maybe. I mean, I'm considering it. Or... I would consider if I my vote mattered.

Too coy by half.

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