Ace of Spades HQ

August 09, 2008

Obama And McCain On Georgia
— DrewM

Compare and contrast time.

I strongly condemn the outbreak of violence in Georgia, and urge an immediate end to armed conflict. Now is the time for Georgia and Russia to show restraint, and to avoid an escalation to full scale war. Georgias territorial integrity must be respected. All sides should enter into direct talks on behalf of stability in Georgia, and the United States, the United Nations Security Council, and the international community should fully support a peaceful resolution to this crisis.

McCain in part:

"For many years, I have warned against Russian actions that undermine the sovereignty of its neighbors. Unfortunately, we have seen in recent days Russia demonstrate that these concerns were well-founded.
This afternoon I spoke, for the second time since the crisis began, with Georgian President Saakashvili. It is clear the situation is dire. Russian aggression against Georgia continues, with attacks occurring far beyond the Georgian region of South Ossetia. As casualties continue to mount, the international community must do all it can to avert further escalations. Tensions and hostilities between Georgians and Ossetians are in no way justification for Russian troops crossing an internationally recognized border. I again call on the Government of Russia to immediately and unconditionally withdraw its forces from the territory of Georgia.
...I am pleased the U.S. has agreed to facilitate the transfer of Georgian troops serving bravely in Iraq, who are now unfortunately needed to defend their own country

The bold in each statement is obviously my emphasis and I think nicely illustrates the differences between the two candidates.

UPDATE: Now that he's had time to crib from McCain's paper, Obama has released a new statement that sounds a little more like someone who knows what the hell they are talking about and not some inexperienced 'citizen of the world'.

Here's part of the new, tougher statement.

I just spoke separately with Secretary Rice and President Saakashvili about the grave crisis in Georgia. I told President Saakashvili that I was deeply concerned about the well-being of the people of Georgia.
Over the last two days, Russia has escalated the crisis in Georgia through its clear and continued violation of Georgias sovereignty and territorial integrity. On Friday, August 8, Russian military forces invaded Georgia. I condemn Russias aggressive actions and reiterate my call for an immediate ceasefire. Russia must stop its bombing campaign, cease flights of Russian aircraft in Georgian airspace, and withdraw its ground forces from Georgia. Both sides should allow humanitarian assistance to reach civilians in need. Russia also must end its cyber war against Georgian government websites. Georgias territorial integrity must be respected.

Apparently someone looked it up and told Obama whose side we are on. Alas, the original statement is the true Obama, wishy washy equivalency.

Thanks to Gabe for the heads up on the new Obama statement.

Below the fold, what liberals will most likely call scaremongering. Personally, I just think it's a little perspective.

Does Obama understand that still relevant message? It sure doesn't sound like it.

Don't forget, one of Obama's foreign policy advisers thinks understanding Winnie the Poo is important to conducting foreign relations. For some reason, I don't think Vladamir Putin shares that sentiment. My guess is he thinks it's more like Jaws, except in his version, the shark wins.

Posted by: DrewM at 03:48 PM | Comments (118)
Post contains 565 words, total size 5 kb.

1 Georgia should show restraint? Clue is clue and obama is obama and never the twain shall meet.

Posted by: Potosi Joel at August 09, 2008 04:03 PM (TPRbZ)

Obama agrees with McCain that Georgia's borders need to stay as they are.

The difference is that Obama omits that Russian troops have crossed Georgia's borders already. Violence just sort of happens in Obamaworld; a bit like how knifes and guns kill people without anyone identifiably wielding them at the time.

The motto for the Obama Presidency, 2009-2012, is "please don't hurt me, and I don't want to know if you hurt anyone else"

Posted by: Rabbit at August 09, 2008 04:16 PM (Vdnwl)

3 Now that there's a blast from the past. The Gipper is sorely missed.

Posted by: Andy at August 09, 2008 04:16 PM (23Gys)

4 That would be my sockpuppet above.

Posted by: David Ross at August 09, 2008 04:16 PM (Vdnwl)

5 I wonder if Obama has talked to Saakashvili.

Posted by: Gabriel Malor at August 09, 2008 04:18 PM (1Ug6U)

Typical, how Obama equates attacker with attacked:

>Now is the time for Georgia and Russia to show restraint

What a dick. Anyone who votes for this mook is not a serious person.

Posted by: Jones at August 09, 2008 04:20 PM (KOkrW)

Google Translator: Barack to English

Original Text:

I strongly condemn the outbreak of violence in Georgia, and urge an immediate end to armed conflict. Now is the time for Georgia and Russia to show restraint, and to avoid an escalation to full scale war. Georgias territorial integrity must be respected. All sides should enter into direct talks on behalf of stability in Georgia, and the United States, the United Nations Security Council, and the international community should fully support a peaceful resolution to this crisis.

Translated:

ohshitohfuckohshitohdamnohshitohfuckohshitohdamnohshitohfuckohshit ohdamnohshitohfuckohshitohdamnohshitohfuckohshitohdamnohshitoh fuckohshitohdamnohshitohfuckohshitohdamnohshitohfuckohshitohdamn

Posted by: BumperStickerist at August 09, 2008 04:26 PM (2IG4D)

Setting aside culpability, Obama's statement means nothing.

'Outbreak of violence.' You might as well condemn space, wetness, or the color purple. It isn't a thing that acts, it's a condition.

Setting that aside, we unfortunately need the Russians at the moment (Afghanistan, Iran, etc.) more than they need us.

Posted by: MlR at August 09, 2008 04:37 PM (PLmsY)

I can see it now:

"Mr. President, we need the codes". <thud>

"Someone get a medic in here. President Obamamessiah just beshat himself and fainted at the same time".

He is no more qualified to be POTUS than I am to do brain surgery.

Posted by: DIck Nixon at August 09, 2008 04:41 PM (ZkUZ3)

10 Will ANYONE on the left condemn Russia's WAR FOR OIL???!!!???111

Like a torn rope, I'm a frayed knot...yeah, that was a really bad pun.

Posted by: ajs at August 09, 2008 04:43 PM (ZCW2j)

11 You know, I've always discouraged the use of profanity on my blog, but I simply can't get past the thought that this statement by Obama marks him indelibly as the "taint candidate"--somewhere between an asshole and a pussy, and not nearly as useful as either.

Posted by: Confederate Yankee at August 09, 2008 04:50 PM (HcgFD)

12 Yankee, I'm quoting that as often as possible.

Posted by: Britt at August 09, 2008 04:56 PM (ggOIi)

When August is done, the RNC is going to put out a number of ads:

On energy - "pump up your tires" - 100% pure Carter

On Obama - "why do you ask that? racist!"

And now, on foreign aggression and, we must assume, crime - "the violence must stop" - yeah, but what about the aggressors?

Obama has lost the election already. The Dems have to know that if he keeps the nomination, the Repubs are further set to hold the line or even gain back some seats in the House. The Senate I'll grant you is going more Dem this year but not as bad as they say.

Or, they could nominate HRC and get landslide Demo results... nah, they're not that smart

Posted by: David Ross at August 09, 2008 05:02 PM (Vdnwl)

Seriously, HRC needs to get back into Washington and be a Maverick.

She could start siding with the Republicans there to open up drilling and nuclear power. She is not Al Gore; her issue is healthcare, and energy ought to be a freeby for her.

And comments about foreign aggression would, again, be just what her Appalachian base needs to hear.

Any PUMAs out there? She needs to hear you roar

Posted by: David Ross at August 09, 2008 05:08 PM (Vdnwl)

15 I'm trying to understand the reason for the fighting in Georgia. Apparently there are one or more Georgian provinces that either 1) want to be Russian rather than Georgian, or 2) are already independent; Georgia is trying to prevent/reverse this, and of course Russia is encouraging the splitting off of these provinces. And oil is a big factor.

Posted by: Jones at August 09, 2008 05:12 PM (KOkrW)

Spook86 has a new post up at In From the Cold:

Various media outlets report that Moscow's Black Sea Fleet is steaming south, preparing for amphibious operations along the Georgian coast. That would open a second front for the Tbilisi's out manned military, placing a further strain on defenders.

I hadn't seen that anywhere else.

Posted by: Bugler at August 09, 2008 05:21 PM (YCVBL)

17 Jones, it's like this.

South Ossetia and Abkhazia are regions in Georgia that have tried to declare independence through violent means a few times since 1991. After the last time, Russia (and other members of the CIS) sent peacekeepers to both regions, ostensibly to prevent further violence. In reality, Russia's purpose is twofold: (1) stick a thumb in Georgia's eye; and (2) to grab as much territory for the Motherland as possible.

Georgia has been getting shelled from South Ossetia for the past few months and it escalated recently to the point where Georgia said "enough is enough." That's why Georgia tried to take the provincial capital on Friday. Russian "peacekeepers" tried to stop them and some were killed. Russia used that as an excuse to send in the tanks. And bombers.

Posted by: Gabriel Malor at August 09, 2008 05:22 PM (1Ug6U)

18 Bugler, at this point I'm inclined to believe those reports about the Black Sea Fleet, but keep in mind that there is very little unbiased reporting coming out of the region and in the absence of information rumors get traded around until people believe they are true.

The rumors that Russia had mobilized its Black Sea forces started this morning, but neither the Russians nor the Georgians have mentioned them yet. I'd wait until at least one of them does.

The big issue with the Black Sea forces is that they are more likely to operate in Abkhazia or Georgia proper than South Ossetia, which indicates that if Russia is calling in the fleet, things are much, much worse than we thought.

Posted by: Gabriel Malor at August 09, 2008 05:25 PM (1Ug6U)

19 Caspian Sea Pipeline.

Posted by: Formercorpsman at August 09, 2008 05:29 PM (k8W77)

Has CNN declared Georgia a 'quagmire' yet? Any 'grim milestones'?

Posted by: Jones at August 09, 2008 05:30 PM (KOkrW)

The big issue with the Black Sea forces is that they are more likely to operate in Abkhazia or Georgia proper than South Ossetia, which indicates that if Russia is calling in the fleet, things are much, much worse than we thought.

Yeah, Spook86's post is entitled "Going for the Knockout." He seems to think Russia may be going for more than South Ossetia, but he doesn't say that explicitly.

Posted by: Bugler at August 09, 2008 05:33 PM (YCVBL)

22 Nothing the US can do but talk in this situation. If the Ossetians and Abkhazians or Cossacks or whatever they are want their own space, the Georgians are better off without them. The Russians have been there as "peacekeepers" for awhile - WTF did the Georgians think was going to happen if they attacked in Ossetia? To take a different example, what if the Serbians attacked NATO forces in Kosovo? The situation is not really much different.

The Georgians thought they were buying security and freedom of action by helping US out in Iraq (although I'm sure they were well-subsidized by US tax$$$).

They were wrong - See ya, wouldn't want to be ya, Georgia!

Posted by: icus at August 09, 2008 05:56 PM (I3lj0)

23 You know, any democrat who is prominent, and started to support oil drilling hard... started to call the Russians what they are, and started to support the war in Iraq, could easily win a general election.

But there is no chance in hell he would win the primary.

Posted by: ghy at August 09, 2008 05:56 PM (8jYMc)

24 OBAMA IS THE ANTICHRIST

Posted by: spuwing plover at August 09, 2008 06:00 PM (4F++4)

25 To take a different example, what if the Serbians attacked NATO forces in Kosovo? The situation is not really much different.

The situation is significantly different, as I wrote yesterday.

Posted by: Gabriel Malor at August 09, 2008 06:02 PM (1Ug6U)

26 Violence just sort of happens in Obamaworld

You mean like in that community he organized?

Taint candidate says it all.

Posted by: Captain Hate at August 09, 2008 06:04 PM (KdD+8)

27 I expect the hoped to stop the shelling which had been coming from South Ossetia the last few months. What is it with the Left labling those who respond to artillery fire as the agressors? The pull the same shit with the Israelis.

Posted by: Cybrludite at August 09, 2008 06:07 PM (Bx310)

28 Methinks I will need to re-read Revelations soon..
New Messiah(false) Check
Teh "Bear" Check
Battle with Ishmael's heirs Check

Where is the tinfoil... need to make a hat..

Catman

Posted by: Catman at August 09, 2008 06:07 PM (xg7Lw)

29 Posted by: icus at August 09, 2008 10:56 PM (I3lj0)

Typical liberal. If someone is of no use to you anymore, toss them. Moral obligation? Liberals have no idea what that concept is.

Besides, anything that might bring back the glory days of the USSR is good, right icus?

Posted by: DrewM. at August 09, 2008 06:15 PM (hlYel)

30 "Iran calls for an immediate ceasefire and urges the involved sides to exercise restraint, according to a statement by the Foreign Ministry."

Was Obama's camp given the OK to print Iran's response?

Posted by: Formercorpsman at August 09, 2008 06:20 PM (k8W77)

31 The situation is significantly different, as I wrote yesterday.

Why is it different? Because you say so?

I read what you wrote yesterday. A mix of legalistic arguments and ignorance of facts.

Let me take a couple of examples out of your post yesterday:

Kosovo declared independence from Serbia in February and was immediately recognized by the U.S. and several other countries. (It has not been recognized by Russia or the UN, however.)

Yes, Kosovo is a US/EU client state, the way that "Ossetia" is a Russian client/irredentist Russian region. Your point is?

Prior to that declaration, Serbia had lost all control of the region and international peacekeepers were keeping Serbia from retaking it.

Yes, NATO bombed Serbia into submission in 1999. Oh yeah, but it was NATO and not the Russians, so it's different.

the whole of Kosovo was placed under international supervision following the wars in the late 1990s. The UN, through NATO, had ultimate administrative and military control.

Because we bombed the shit out of Serbia and occupied Kosovo.

There was no analogue to this in South Ossetia. Georgia has always been able to exert at-will military control over South Ossetia.

If that was true, looks like it's going to change, because the Georgians exerted a little too much "at will military control."

Third, Kosovar independence was achieved without military action. Actually, the fact that Kosovo was able to declare independence without going to war with Serbia is evidence of just how complete its de facto independence was.

This is so ridiculous - Kosovo is independent because NATO bombed the shit out of Serbia and occupied Kosovo, sending in troops and armored vehicles which were staged in Albania for that purpose. How is that not "military action?"

By the way, I remember seeing McCain speak at a rally back in 2000 when he ran for president then. He said that the bombing of Serbia had been "immoral" because the high altitude bombing caused less accuracy in identifying targets and thus more civilian deaths. I thought that was an interesting and ballsy perspective - I wish we had that McCain back.

Posted by: icus at August 09, 2008 06:21 PM (I3lj0)

32 Let me take a couple of examples out of your post yesterday:

Kosovo declared independence from Serbia in February and was immediately recognized by the U.S. and several other countries. (It has not been recognized by Russia or the UN, however.)

Yes, Kosovo is a US/EU client state, the way that "Ossetia" is a Russian client/irredentist Russian region.

Prior to that declaration, Serbia had lost all control of the region and international peacekeepers were keeping Serbia from retaking it.

Yes, NATO bombed Serbia into submission in 1999. Oh yeah, but it was NATO and not the Russians, so it's different. [The Russians did not bomb Georgia out of South Ossetia or Abkhazia at all. You obviously have no idea what you're talking about. Crawl back under your rock, please.]

Posted by: Gabriel Malor at August 09, 2008 06:37 PM (1Ug6U)

33 Typical liberal. If someone is of no use to you anymore, toss them. Moral obligation? Liberals have no idea what that concept is.

Besides, anything that might bring back the glory days of the USSR is good, right icus?

Has nothing to do with "liberalism." Sometimes you have to know when to fold them. But hey, wasn't it Nixon and Ford that left the SVN and the Montagnards high and dry in 1974-75? And Kissinger also left the Kurds to twist in the wind in 1975? And Reagan (prudently and belatedly) left Beirut to its own devices in 1984?

Yeah, whadda you going to do, Drew? Send a Navy task force with a Marine amphibious brigade into the Black Sea? Fly USAF missions into Georgia? Give me a fucking break.

Yeah, lets start a war with Russia over Ossetia, good idea. Maybe having to worry about those SS-18s with their multiple 400KT warheads again will teach Americans what a real existential threat is and stop all the girlish hysteria about a few fools in Iran and Arabia.

Posted by: icus at August 09, 2008 06:38 PM (I3lj0)

34 Poohbama's statement is so nuanced, and European, and UN'ish, and ineffectual, impotent, meaningless, etc. He will be the type to issue pious statements one after another, as the bear swallows its neighbor. His election will put this nation well on the road to becoming Belgium. Superpower? What superpower?

Posted by: joe at August 09, 2008 06:42 PM (TOly9)

.But hey, wasn't it Nixon and Ford that left the SVN and the Montagnards high and dry in 1974-75?

No, that would be the United States Congress, which cut off the money.

Posted by: Jones at August 09, 2008 06:43 PM (KOkrW)

36 Foreign policy is the ONLY reason I will be supporting McCain.

Posted by: Jaded at August 09, 2008 06:45 PM (yyZu2)

37 I like the way you gloss over the fact that Kosovo did have all the elements of statehood--you even call it a state--but can't quite bring yourself to say the same of South Ossetia. In fact, South Ossetia cannot be characterized as a "state" at all.

You're making a lawyer's argument - NATO and the UN gave Kosovo all the trappings of a "state." Anyways, who cares whether South Ossetia is a "state," or an irredentist region wishing to join with North Ossetia in Russia? It appears that South Ossetia does not want to be part of Georgia, that's what the fight is about.

The Russians did not bomb Georgia out of South Ossetia or Abkhazia at all. You obviously have no idea what you're talking about. Crawl back under your rock, please.

Why use the past tense? What are the Russians doing NOW? Looks like they're bombing Georgia out of South Ossetia to me.

Posted by: icus at August 09, 2008 06:49 PM (I3lj0)

38 Icus, you're as much of a nekulturny propaganda tool as the various Mikhail's in the previous thread.

Posted by: Cybrludite at August 09, 2008 06:57 PM (Bx310)

39 It sounds ridiculous for a junior senator fresh out of a state legislature to be telling Russia and Georgia what they should be doing.

Posted by: DCox at August 09, 2008 06:59 PM (2pT9a)

icus, you ignorant slut, this isn't "over South Ossetia". It is over Georgia, Armenia, and the whole Caucasus and then, Eastern Europe.

As for Obama, <a href="http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives2/2008/08/021207.php">heh</a>.

Posted by: David Ross at August 09, 2008 07:06 PM (Vdnwl)

41 Gateway Pundit is quoting Al Jazeera of all people who are reporting that the airport in Tbilisi has been bombed.

Posted by: Gabriel Malor at August 09, 2008 07:10 PM (1Ug6U)

42 Georgia has been calling for a cease-fire since this morning. Russia is not listening.

icus is comfortable with Russia ignoring the sovereignty of its neighbors. As if we needed more reason to believe the opposite is true...

Posted by: Gabriel Malor at August 09, 2008 07:13 PM (1Ug6U)

43 icus, you ignorant slut, this isn't "over South Ossetia". It is over Georgia, Armenia, and the whole Caucasus and then, Eastern Europe.

Oh yeah, back into Prague and Warsaw. I'm sure the Russkies are going to be marching to the Rhine and then the Channel after that, too.

Give me a break. Georgia's going to get punished and then this will, or should, go into the Security Council. They will tread no more on Ossetian soil, as the Serbians no longer hold sway in their former province of Kosovo.

Funny for all the tough talk, nobody can come up with anything the US can actually do militarily. Please let me read that for grins and giggles - tell me your mastermind moron stratergee for kicking Russian ass and backing up our gallant Georgian ally. I'm daring you, and we know morons cannot resist a dare.

Posted by: icus at August 09, 2008 07:17 PM (I3lj0)

44 Can anyone get a dirty bomb into this Roki tunnel I keep hearing about? I understand that resupply is a good thing for a conquering army to have.

Posted by: cthulhu at August 09, 2008 07:30 PM (IJGaX)

45 Posted by: icus at August 09, 2008 11:38 PM (I3lj0)

Listen dickhead, first of all if you really think it was Nixon and Ford who left South Vietnam to the wolves you're dumber than I thought. Who even knew that was possible?

Yeah, whadda you going to do, Drew? Send a Navy task force with a Marine amphibious brigade into the Black Sea? Fly USAF missions into Georgia? Give me a fucking break.

I never said any such thing. In fact I know there's nothing we can really do. That doesn't mean I am willing to gloat that we are leaving allies to fend for themselves. You on the other hand with your flippant "See ya, wouldn't want to be ya, Georgia!" seem to be enjoying the sight of allies being crushed under the boot of a resurgent Russia.

It's rather sad that Georgian soldiers who until recently fought on our side in Iraq are dying and you feel it's a laughing matter. Pity you couldn't trade places with one of them.

Posted by: DrewM. at August 09, 2008 07:38 PM (hlYel)

46 Funny for all the tough talk, nobody can come up with anything the US can actually do militarily. Please let me read that for grins and giggles - tell me your mastermind moron stratergee for kicking Russian ass and backing up our gallant Georgian ally. I'm daring you, and we know morons cannot resist a dare.

If the west does nothing as you describe (and that may be the case), then you can almost be assured that Russia will know without a doubt that the west has no honor or resolve in coming to the defense and aid of their allies. They will then be emboldened to do far more and far worse. Moreover, China will also take note of the same and make a move on Taiwan. You can take that to the bank.

It is precisely the response that you are advocating that will cost democratic and free countries so much and so many lives in the long run.

Posted by: DCox at August 09, 2008 07:38 PM (2pT9a)

47 Funny for all the tough talk, nobody can come up with anything the US can actually do militarily. Please let me read that for grins and giggles - tell me your mastermind moron stratergee for kicking Russian ass and backing up our gallant Georgian ally. I'm daring you, and we know morons cannot resist a dare.

Because, of course, all of us here have detailed insight into the US military's ability to launch a proper defensive action in the Caucasus, and we'd further be willing to wargame fully realistic scenarios in public. /sarc

What we do know is that Georgia has been an ally to us, and fought beside us for our causes. By virtue of that, Russia murdering their civilians and bombing their infrastructure must not pass without reprisal. Do I know what form it will take? No. Do I know we have a strong strategic interest in keeping Georgia as an ally? Yes.

Take your dares and fuck off, you preening halfwit.

Posted by: leoncaruthers at August 09, 2008 07:41 PM (JSO4h)

48 While there's little we can do for Georgia directly, I sure as hell hope that we are providing them with any supplies they may need.

The Russians have never been shy about arming people fighting us, so I don't see why we shouldn't play by their rules.

Posted by: DrewM. at August 09, 2008 07:47 PM (hlYel)

49 I only have one thing to say to icus:

Please kindly wag your miniaturized dick someplace else, you fossilized little fucktwit.

That is all.

Posted by: Suci at August 09, 2008 07:53 PM (ExJZV)

50 It may be time for a little aggressive lend/lease to Georgia, in the form of Stingers and Javelins. The Russians are riding high only because their opponents are so utterly tiny in comparison, but they are still a brittle, hollow, conscript force. Take out some tanks and IFVs, knock down a few choppers, and see how resolute they are.

Posted by: J. Wilde at August 09, 2008 08:05 PM (HczQo)

51 "I strongly condemn the outbreak of violence in Georgia, and urge an immediate end to armed conflict."

Who exactly is he urging and how? Does he think it's by releasing a press statement?

Our foreign policy for the next four years.

Posted by: lowandslow at August 09, 2008 08:12 PM (3lXty)

52 Lil' Barry has come out boldly against the "outbreak"--it sounds like he's condemning heat rash or something.

Posted by: Parsin' Weems at August 09, 2008 08:14 PM (4gHqM)

Some of the wise old heads among the right wing punditry like George Will and Michael Barone have always pointed out that not only is a year/six months/three months etc. an eternity in politics, but that we don't even know what the issues will even be.

Georgia may be that issue this election that nobody saw coming.

And it may be a game breaker.

Posted by: Lee at August 09, 2008 08:16 PM (HCy0N)

54 The Russians really are waging a war for oil, and purposely targeting civilians. Icus approves. America is doing neither of these things in Iraq. Icus disapproves. Pretty much sums Icus up.

Posted by: The Obvious at August 09, 2008 08:22 PM (1g+FW)

It sounds ridiculous for a junior senator fresh out of a state legislature to be telling Russia and Georgia what they should be doing.

To us, sure- not to Obamanation. The One can heal the earth, lower the oceans, etc.

#44

you spelled 'strategery' wrong.

Posted by: Jones at August 09, 2008 08:24 PM (KOkrW)

56 There is no single word for people like Icus. The best description of them I can give is temporary ally and eventual victim or loyal member of the American Democratic party. Take your pick...

Posted by: The Ghost of Jopsef Stalin at August 09, 2008 08:26 PM (1g+FW)

57 Or perhaps one could just call him a "Duranty."

Posted by: The Ghost of Jopsef Stalin at August 09, 2008 08:32 PM (1g+FW)

58 There is no single word for people like Icus.

How about...

Useful idiot

Fellow traveler

Waste of oxygen

Piece of shit

Posted by: DrewM. at August 09, 2008 08:36 PM (hlYel)

59 "Award winning journalist" is another label often applied to people with his particular psychosis.

Posted by: The Ghost of Jopsef Stalin at August 09, 2008 08:39 PM (1g+FW)

60 My life would be complete if at one point during the upcoming Presidential debates, McCain would just turn and look at Obama and call him a "goddamn pussy".

Posted by: slick at August 09, 2008 08:47 PM (OjNK+)

61 Holy Jeebus, please don't put me in a position where I actually have to make a decision.!!

Posted by: Obama the Weanie at August 09, 2008 08:57 PM (h/5U0)

62 Full new, revised statement from Obama is here. As Drew says, he really is cribbing from McCain.

He correctly identifies Russia as the aggressor, just like McCain did and unlike his earlier statement.

He says that the US, EU, and NATO must send diplomats...which they've already done. How convenient. (And McCain mentioned that they'd already done it, which again makes Obama look like he's just trying to keep up with the Joneses.)

He says that an international peacekeeping force must be allowed into the region--one that excludes Russia--just like McCain did and unlike his earlier mealy-mouthed statement.

He is an empty suit. He is only playing president. Without a script he defaults to noncommittal leftist tropes: UN resolutions, no one's to blame, let's all hold hands.

Posted by: Gabriel Malor at August 09, 2008 09:01 PM (1Ug6U)

A chicken in every pot...

And a watermellon, in every Cadillac.

We will

do as thou wilt

Posted by: Anton Heusain Levay at August 09, 2008 09:02 PM (123Lx)

The Russians have not changed one particle...all they have done is bided their time and rebuilt their economy with western help...now that it is mostly rebuilt, they are resuming their aggression against us.

They start with mostly a clean economic slate, meanwhile, we're in debt up to our eyeballs trying to make the world a warm and fuzzy place for all the little children. Oil and gas dependency is a severe weakness.

It was naive of us to buy into this 'we are all brothers' bullshit...we are not all brothers and we never will be.

Sharpen your swords, my friends.

Posted by: dave at August 09, 2008 09:09 PM (PLJE8)

65 Megga dittos, dave, above.

Posted by: Anton Heusain Levay at August 09, 2008 09:28 PM (123Lx)

66 Phone call, 3 am, Obama answers the phone and says:

"All sides should enter into direct talks on behalf of stability in Georgia, and the United States, the United Nations Security Council,"

Jesus, we are going to be subject to this bullshit for as long as He remains a viable candidate. Where the fuck is Lee Atwater when you need him?

Posted by: Davey at August 09, 2008 09:32 PM (ar3qY)

67 Vote accordingly.

Posted by: runninrebel at August 09, 2008 09:32 PM (qAMnO)

68 OBAMA = Piece of Shit in Our Time

Posted by: Breaker19 at August 09, 2008 09:34 PM (uXAZ6)

69 Does the bear shit in the woods?

Posted by: Dave in Texas at August 09, 2008 09:48 PM (eiOZw)

70 That is a stunningly bland statement from a presidential candidate who has such a weak record on foreign policy. You'd think he'd be staking out a position to show his resolve. Christ, he makes Carter look tough.

I'm not saying O! should have threatened war, but McCain at least called a spade a spade (yes, please, go ahead and denounce me).

Posted by: XBradTC at August 09, 2008 09:49 PM (pSXbN)

71 The US could set up some transports from Iraq to help the Georgians return their people and equipment, and, when they get on the tarmac, stay, with the announced goal of 'assisting the Russians in their peacekeeping mission.'

Meaning, of course, that we stick our foot in and care the Russians to slam it in the door.

Yeah, yeah. I know.

Posted by: Stinky Esposito at August 09, 2008 09:52 PM (MMC8r)

72 care = dare up above. Sorry.

Posted by: Stinky Esposito at August 09, 2008 09:52 PM (MMC8r)

73 Oh, I don't know. Leaving some of our C-130s on Georgian airfields might keep the Russians from bombing them. I'm pretty sure the Russians are looking for quick and easy, not the Third World War.

Would I arm the Georgians? Dunno, maybe.

Posted by: XBradTC at August 09, 2008 09:54 PM (pSXbN)

74 my grandfather had a saying about people like O!. he would say that obama speaks like a man with a paper asshole.

Posted by: billypaintbrush at August 09, 2008 09:56 PM (CJOkO)

75 Taking it to the UN. Wonderful. He can grandstand like he is doing something, and yet he gets the benefit of doing nothing. And Soviets Russians get exactly what they want. Maybe he can add Putin's endorsement to the one from Hamas?

Posted by: Blackiswhite, Imperial Agent Provocateur at August 09, 2008 09:57 PM (jlmRT)

76 "Why can't I just eat my waffle?" - Obama

Posted by: Breaker19 at August 09, 2008 10:01 PM (uXAZ6)

77 "The reaction of the Obama campaign to this crisis, so at odds with our democratic allies and yet so bizarrely in sync with Moscow, doesn't merely raise questions about Senator Obama's judgment--it answers them." Tucker Bounds

Best quote.

Posted by: klrtz1 at August 09, 2008 10:14 PM (zfM6e)

78 "WTF did the Georgians think was going to happen if they attacked in Ossetia? To take a different example, what if the Serbians attacked NATO forces in Kosovo? The situation is not really much different." -- icus above

Uh, yeah. The US and Russians are completely impossible to distinguish. The US (along with NATO but let's be serious and call the NATO feckless, since it is) was trying to stop ethnic cleansing/genocide. The Russians are trying to extend their hegemony and co-opt natural resources (READ: oil).

Completely. Fucking. Indistinguishable.

Posted by: Nom de Blog at August 09, 2008 10:36 PM (e321h)

So if canada invaded the USA with a colume of tanks, troop carriers and bomber Erie the USa should show retraint. This idiots will destroy this country.

Oh yeah the dems energy policy can be directly tied to the reemergence of Russia as a threat. If not for $140.00/bll oil russia would still be in the thoes of poverty.

Posted by: unseen at August 09, 2008 10:39 PM (aVGmX)

Worth a big repeat.

Oh yeah the dems energy policy can be directly tied to the reemergence of Russia as a threat. If not for $140.00/bll oil russia would still be in the thoes of poverty.

The dems insane policies have reprecussions that no one can begin to see until it is too late.

Posted by: unseen at August 09, 2008 10:41 PM (aVGmX)

81 Putin's play is to take Georgia.

He's exploiting the Violence Gap. Violent men and societies are willing to deal out more violence than we in the West can respond with.

Of course that will be repeated later, with other nations. Since Europe is disarmed and has a paper military about the status of the Shriners.

I blogged about that <a href="http://whiskeys-place.blogspot.com/2008/08/russias-war-on-georgia-its-not-cold-war.html">HERE</a>.

Bottom line: Putin needs to conquer other places and keep oil at $145 a barrel or higher just to pay off his patronage network. Georgia is just a start. Other nations will be targets and will be sending money, resources to Moscow (a reverse of what happened in the Cold War). Putin may not be goose-stepping to Dunkirk, but he's got the only real military in Europe, and he is using it to make examples, and restore bit by bit the Russian Empire.

Posted by: whiskey at August 09, 2008 10:43 PM (4878o)

82 I'va been waiting with my shotgun, no russkies yet. Dey must be attackin another part of the state.

Posted by: Larry the Kable guy at August 09, 2008 11:07 PM (n3pxb)

83 Lee said a mouthful:

Georgia may be that issue this election that nobody saw coming.

I have staunchly held my ground in proclaiming I wouldn't vote for McCain. If the cold war is heating back up, I may have to reconsider.

It is amazing to me, how fragile freedom is. Putin has been playing his games while Bush refused to believe there was a game to be played. I guess one could argue the dogged pursuit of missile defense implies he suspected the worst.

And lets not forget yet another failure by our Intelligence services and the State Department here. Our government is pretty completely useless.

Conflict is not only integral to the human condition but, given our predisposition towards it, I believe it may well be essential.

Posted by: krakatoa at August 09, 2008 11:34 PM (rZa+A)

84 While there's little we can do for Georgia directly...

Those Russian subs have been very accident prone in the past. I'm just saying...

Posted by: Purple Avenger at August 10, 2008 12:44 AM (SLqkZ)

So if canada invaded the USA with a colume of tanks, troop carriers and bomber Erie the USa should show retraint. This idiots will destroy this country.

1.) I don't think we Canadians have anything that an American would call a 'tank'

2) I'm on your side...those Russian motherfuckers have been playing us for the last 20 years...

3) You know, guys...Canada's population is plunging at an alarming rate, maybe you need to start thinking about defending 'northern North America' yourselves...

Posted by: dave at August 10, 2008 12:47 AM (KKkzN)

86 Resorting to insults is a sign that you have nothing intelligent to say.

I'm not happy that the Georgians are getting their ass kicked, but isn't it something that they started, by bombing and shelling Ossetia, maybe even shelling the Russian troops there? The first reports were that the Georgians were bombing the shit out of Ossetian towns.

The Russians made clear that they were very interested in the place, by sending troops there a long time ago. WTF were the Georgians thinking, twisting the bear's tail? Did they think the US was going to come to their aid? That is the origin of the "See ya" joke - America has a long history of abandoning small peoples when it interferes with our greater interests, and that is the way the USA treats its smaller client states - "See ya, wouldn't want to be ya"

As one Army captain once told me, referring to another country's credullous hope for US support - "They haven't learned about the old American bait-and-switch."

Icus, you draw parallels between Kosovo and Osseita, but the main difference is that the West interviened in Kosovo to stop genocide.

Repeat, to stop genocide.

Repeat. To stop. Fucking. Genocide.

As Lee points out further down in his post, the "genocide" label has also been thrown out by the Russians in this case. I gather that Ossetians are not Georgians, they do not speak Georgian and they do not want to be a part of Georgia. What is called "genocide" now is often just the kind of brutal war they've been waging in backholes like the Balkans and Caucasus for centuries. Both sides are trying to kill or displace their ethnic enemies.

Anyways, I seem to remember a lot of resistance from the Republican party towards Operation Allied Force, as the Kosovo-related bombing of Serbia was called - McCain said the bombing was "immoral." I wasn't too much in favor of it myself, Kosovo did not seem to be a vital US interest to me, just like Darfur isn't now. By intervening around the world, we weaken ourselves and create conditions for the removal of liberty here by the national security state.

I'm still waiting for a plan from you morons. At least DrewM, for all of his insults, agrees with me that the US can do nothing. If you can't propose a realistic alternative to doing nothing, you're all just wringing your hands and howling like monkeys in a cage

Posted by: icus at August 10, 2008 01:11 AM (I3lj0)

87 Funny for all the tough talk, nobody can come up with anything the US can actually do militarily.

Yeah, that's funny. You know what else might be funny? An examination of when people like you have ever thought U.S. military intervention might be warranted.

You know what else was funny? The Prague Spring. The Tianamen Square protests were also hilarious.

We didn't have military responses to those incidents, either, but I'm quite sure you would have demanded intervention in those crises, too.

Posted by: Sean M. at August 10, 2008 01:57 AM (e6v7s)

88 Icus, you are a thoroughly unpleasant twat, but I happen to agree with you that this situation isn't nearly as black and white as any of us would like.

I think we need to be very careful to fully understand what is motivating all parties. It would be helpful if the press could actually fill in the blanks, but they seem to be fully engaged in the war for Elizabeth's honor.

While Russia certainly seems to have taken advantage of the situation, there does appear to be on second glance some real problems with Georgia's treatment of S.Ossetia.

When an overwhelming number of people in what is called an autonomous republic within Georgia votes for independence from Georgia, it seems rather pointless to demand by force that they remain Georgians. Not only that -- given Georgia's recent independence from the USSR, it borders on hypocritical.

I'm culling this 30000 foot view of the situation from the intertubes, so it's all questionable. If anyone has some definitive source material, I'd love to read it.

Posted by: krakatoa at August 10, 2008 02:08 AM (rZa+A)

You can tell the first statement was the real Obama by the phrase "Now is the time." So far that magical mantra has brought down the Berlin wall, stopped the rising seas and built bridges all over the place. If He says, "Now is the time for Georgia and Russia to show restraint," you can bet your bottom dollar that they will. Especially Georgia. OK, only Georgia.

Posted by: Erwin Hussein O'Barry at August 10, 2008 02:13 AM (eepJm)

90 Yeah, Purple Avenger, and a pair of Los Angeles class subs could put the entire Black Sea fleet on the bottom in 4 hours or so.

US submariners referred to the Russian surface fleet in the 80's as "a target rich environment." I doubt that's changed.

Posted by: SDN at August 10, 2008 02:32 AM (ehTyy)

91 For Icus:
It really isn't about what the US can do militarily in this situation. It is about the reactions of the 2 candidates. McCain says it like it is: Obama pontificates in a muddle of moral equivalency. Wouldn't do to be judgmental, you know. Same mindset as after 9-11 - "what did we do to deserve this?"
He is a fool and so is anyone who would vote for him.

Posted by: joe at August 10, 2008 03:57 AM (TOly9)

92 "Outbreak of violence"?

Like at a hockey game, or a British soccer meet?

September, 1939: "German Army Outbreaks of Violence Poland"

December, 1941: "Japan Outbreaks of Violence Pearl Harbor"

Posted by: eman at August 10, 2008 04:03 AM (wOCCc)

93 When an overwhelming number of people in what is called an autonomous republic within Georgia votes for independence from Georgia, it seems rather pointless to demand by force that they remain Georgians.

Word.

Posted by: jefferson hussein davis at August 10, 2008 05:33 AM (PD1tk)

94 I guess I missed that episode of Winnie the Pooh where the Pooh bear invades Kanga and Roo land for Hunny reserves.

Posted by: turtle at August 10, 2008 05:45 AM (Dz6FX)

95 Has icus figured out what an NCO is yet?

Posted by: Warden at August 10, 2008 05:58 AM (KXbGD)

96 To bad no one listened to Churchill and Patton and turned on the Ruskies after taking out the Germans. We wouldn't have this problem right now.

Posted by: BTM at August 10, 2008 05:58 AM (v0dke)

97 The first statement was the Obama 'generic condemnation of violence in the World' template, unedited. It could have applied to any conflict, right down to the neighborhhod kids in fisticuffs on the schoolyard.

The second is indeed after someone explained to him that is was not Georgia, the state, and found the right chapter in Cliff Notes for the 'Foreign Policy for Dummies' book for him.

Posted by: Mike O at August 10, 2008 06:45 AM (z2JmR)

98 icus really has the answer. Any problem that can't be solved immediately we should just not do anything about. Can't eradicate poverty? Ignore it. Stop the hand wringing, monkeys. Global warming cooling climate change can't be fixed before the election? Stop the monkey wringing of the hands. Lets just all shut up about it. What about a problem like racism in America that can never be solved because blacks can't be racist? Just fucking ignore it and stop wringing your hands, monkeys.

Wait, maybe that last one was racist. What do you think, icus? But please, no hand wringing in your answer. Only solutions.

don't answer icus, its a trick

Posted by: klrtz1 at August 10, 2008 07:19 AM (zfM6e)

99 S. Ossetia is Georgian territory. Simple as that. Sure, it was a no-go zone for Georgian authority, and there has been shit in the air for years over that little stretch of nothing about the size of a large county in Iowa. But we recognize the islamic state of Kosovo and the Russians decide to start some shit. They urge the Osettians to start flinging mortars et al across the border. Pisses the Georgians off, so they start Operation Stop-That-Shit. Ivan springs the trap, and Presto!, we have ourselves a cluster fuck all designed to stick a Bear claw in the Eagle's eye. Diplomacy by "fuck You".

Why? Why? Because, and a lot of commenters above are wrong, we fucked up the Balkans in a major way. There WAS NO ETHNIC CLEANSING OF MOOSE-LIMBS IN KOSOVO OR BOSNIA-HERZEGOVINA. There was plenty of Serbian self defense, but the "ethnic cleansing" was by the goat shaggers against the Serb Christians. Sure, there were plenty of small mass graves filled with muslim men and boys. "Men and Boys" is generally known, while alive, as "militia". When dead, they are known as "Get the backhoe, I don't want to smell that shit". The babies and oldsters slaughtered by the thousands by the mohammedans never hit the US media because it din't fit the Narrative. Fuck yeah the Serbs fought back. Too successfully. So, in order to keep the Congress from sniffing too hard for a while at Slick Willy's member, he ordered us to bomb the shit out of a Russian client state. GWB fell into the trap later by recognizing stolen Serb territory as independent.

Pissed the Russkies off. The fact that this will up the price of their only export don't hoit, either.

Posted by: Herr Morgenholz at August 10, 2008 07:43 AM (SbNsi)

100 What kind of response were you all expecting from a Communist/Fascist sympathizer like icus?

Posted by: Capitalist Infidel at August 10, 2008 08:34 AM (kNqJV)

101

When an overwhelming number of people in what is called an autonomous republic within Georgia votes for independence from Georgia, it seems rather pointless to demand by force that they remain Georgians. Not only that -- given Georgia's recent independence the USSR, it borders on hypocritical.

Imagine, if you will, that a section of the United States decided that it wanted to break away from the rest. For the sake of argument, let's call it "the South." They decide to fire artillery shells at an outpost of their enemy, which for the sake of argument, we will call the "United States" or "the North." "The North" repsonds by starting a war to reunite the country. History records "the North's" crusade as honorable and important. Substitute South Ossetia for "the South" and Georgia for "the North" and it becomes dishonorable somehow.

Anyone who thinks this is anything other than a Russian attempt to take advantage of a situation for their own gain, please raise your hand. Anyone who thinks that South Ossetia will be fully independent from Russia when all is said and done, raise your hand.

Yeah, that's what I thought.

Posted by: Steve L. at August 10, 2008 09:32 AM (Ei5BK)

102 i am not voting for no dam spider-monkey

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103 I gotta say, those Human Shields are taking their sweet-ass time getting to the Caucasus. Tho they'll prolly get there before the ANSWER rally hits your local Russian consulate.

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