1 I think Cash for Clunkers was a judicious and effective use of taxpayer money leading to long-term economic stimulus. 

2

here's the thing:  cash for clunkers cost more than it was worth.  and even more than that, it accounts for about 1/2 of the GDP rise this past qtr.  And we won't have this auto "spike" next qtr.  So this GDP rise is artificial.

 

Everyone in Congress needs to come home.

3 The cake is a lie.

4 Cannibalizing future auto sales to increase sales now, and thereby artificially cook up some slightly better economic news right before the elections, at the paltry cost of $24,000 to the taxpayer per car, will help turn around the US economy in a Great Leap Forward to an economic Cultural Revolution.  

5

Wait a sec - there's cake and nobody told me?!?

Betcha its that red velvet shiznit, too. I always miss that stuff.

6 I've been wondering how much of this vaunted 3.5% GDP growth was mainly due to Government money being pumped to the states to "stimulate" job growth. Given that the other economic indicators like housing and employment are still down, I'd say that this GDP blip isn't much to be happy about. Yeah, it signals that the period of actual decline may be over, but it doesn't do much to indicate a recovery, either. And there's a real danger of the "double-dip" as the housing market goes into the winter doldrums and the car-buying public continues to stay away in droves.

I'm waiting to see what the retail numbers look like through Black Friday from the likes of Wal Mart, Target, etc. If consumers are spending money on bigger-ticket stuff (like computers and TV's), I'll think the economy is trending back up. If not....

7 Actually, there is a good chance GM and FIATChrysler will crash again within 2 years.

GMAC apparently is the walking dead.

8 is it true that we are getting an appliance C4C next?  my husband told me & he reads the WSJ & listens to the talk radios when he drives.

9 The ratio of people to cake is too big.

10 GM??  This is the beauty of being a government whore.  They can continue to do a shitty job and get bailed out again...and again....and again....Just keep the UAW assholes fat dumb and happy.

It won't surprise me if they do some kind of Cash for GM Cars Only bullshit next time.

11

Me thinks Rent-a-'Bam should be able to solve the deficit and the Cash for Clunkers debacle. We rent Obama to a bidder for a day for the rest of his term. Obama could shower his narcisism on someone else and he can be away from our sight for the rest of his term. That should provide enough dough for tax cuts to create real jobs.

They should replace Geithner with moi.

12 I bet you didn't know that George Bush ran GMAC into the ground.

13
Mom ! Edmunds.com all my Matchbox Cars from out of the sandbox and took them home !

14 So if the analysis is faulty, please explain WHY.

15 is it true that we are getting an appliance C4C next

There's one in the Obama Energy Restriction and Tax Bill (euphemistically known as "cap and trade").  Is there another one?

16 Hehe. Also, didn't team Barry try to take on the AP for something or other yesterday?

17 Its the "Help keep GE Solvent Act of 2010"

18

that cake smells bad

19 Went to read the Administration's attack on Edmunds. Sheesh. It's hard to believe, really.
The 'Mars' and 'spacesuit' schtick in particular is 100% 7th-grade peevishness.

The chicken, it will not fuck itself, guys. Time to hustle!

20

the largest contribution to quarterly growth in over a decade

 

More lies from the AH’s in the WH. I seem to recall some 7.5% rises during the Bush years.

21 pie > cake .

22 I've been wondering how much of this vaunted 3.5% GDP growth was mainly due to Government money being pumped to the states to "stimulate" job growth. Given that the other economic indicators like housing and employment are still down, I'd say that this GDP blip isn't much to be happy about. Yeah, it signals that the period of actual decline may be over, but it doesn't do much to indicate a recovery, either. And there's a real danger of the "double-dip" as the housing market goes into the winter doldrums and the car-buying public continues to stay away in droves.

Any nation that has banks that were not heavily exposed to the alt-a and subprime mortgage industry in the United States are doing quite well.  They are creating jobs at this point.  PIMCO is now talking about the Fed starting to pull out of propping up US housing stock.  Rates will go up.

This 3rd quarter growth is a Chicago rouse.  What tricks will there be to play up 4th quarter numbers?

23 Cake?

24

I was present in the United States. The United States employs two hundred million people. Ergo, I created/saved/did not flush two hundred million jobs.

25 So if the analysis is faulty, please explain WHY.

You just asked the dumb kid to do calculus.

26 I was reading a article in USA TODAY that stated the German Govt. now admits that their cash for clunkers program will cost them future car sales for 5 years. They said it was a mistake. I wish that I had saved the Article. It was about a month ago.

27 It was my idea, therefore, it was a great idea.

28 Edmunds.com, really?

What's next? The United Way?  Homeless shelters?

29 Shut up and eat your vegetables, Barry.

30 I told you before: NO CAKE

31 "You sir, Cake or Death?" BOTH!

32 It won't surprise me if they do some kind of Cash for GM Cars Only bullshit next time.

-- Posted by: BigWyo at October 30, 2009 09:48 AM (mT7uC)

That would surprise me a bit.  Congressional Dems in the Rust Belt proposed a "Buy American Provision" when C4C was originally considered.  That would be viewed as a straight-up Smoot-Hawley trade-war measure.  Foreign nations would respond with tariffs and other similar actions. 

Having said that, none of the leading Democrats in DC seems to know anything about failed (or enormously counterproductive) economic policies from the past, so why not?   

33 The fight against cake.

34 Any nation that has banks that were not heavily exposed to the alt-a and subprime mortgage industry in the United States are doing quite well.

Maybe...but they're not loaning money out, or at least not in the amounts that small to medium-size businesses need them to. They're continuing to hoard cash, which is not a good thing for the economy going forward. Given that a lot of job creation comes from businesses with 250 employees or less, not being able to get business loans is very bad news.

Unemployement is always touted as being a "lagging indicator", but there's reason to believe in this particular case that the unemployment numbers may be chronic -- that is, that the jobs lost won't be recovered later on when the economy improves. Many of the jobs lost were lost in the blue collar sector: construction, services, manufacturing. And many businesses are simply eliminating those positions -- either by automation or by reallocation (moving overseas, cutting product-lines, whatever). The early 1980's unemployment was erased (and then some) during the huge tech boom, but there's nothing like that on the horizon right now. Entrepreneurs can't get seed money to start up firms, which means that there's no potential for later exploitation of new technologies (biotech, especially).

35 They went straight from adjectives to assertion and skipped argument. I wish someone would just tell them they're not fooling anyone.

36 What tricks will there be to play up 4th quarter numbers?

There's going to be the holiday shopping which props up numbers a bit.  What I read though, the retailers are expecting real bad news.

37 Cake is banned

38

Pie = su*ck.

Cake = goodness

Red Velvet Cake = Multiple hookers, val-u-rite Vodka, & assorted rustlers, cut throats, murderers, bounty hunters, desperados, mugs, pugs, thugs, nitwits, halfwits, dimwits, vipers, snipers, con men, Indian agents, Mexican bandits, muggers, buggerers, bushwhackers, hornswogglers, horse thieves, bull dykes, train robbers, bank robbers, ass-kickers, shit-kickers and Methodists.

Good stuff, that is.

39 Has the Administration attempted to explain the German government report that found that their "Cash for Clunkers" program damaged the domestic German auto markets for five years? Would love a link to that study, in English, if any of you morons have it.

40 I enjoyed the "Why Investors are Wild for Brazil" umm...article over at the link.

41 The chicken, it will not fuck itself, guys. Time to hustle! Chickens are known liars.

42
If the cake isn't chocolate, you're a racist.

Or maybe you're a racist if the cake is chocolate. Let me check with Jeremiah and get back to you.

43 I especially like the "Mars" comments.  It gives it that authentic junior high school newspaper feel.

"Vice Principal Williams is counting the number of loud lunchroom groups.  Well, maybe he should try the lunchrooms on MARS.  LOL!"

44 what's a few trillion between friends

45 Now wait a minute! The gov gave a $4k credit to anyone who would use that $ for a down on a new car. How the heck did it go from $4k to $24k? And, if the GDP is so damn good, then why are there more people getting laid off Mr. Prez?

46 "Grappling with the end of the popular “cash for clunkers” government stimulus programme, car dealerships in Germany are offering discounts of up to 42 percent on new vehicles, magazine Auto Motor und Sport reported on Thursday."

"Auto sales dropped dramatically following the September 2 end to the Abwrackprämie, which offered Germans €2,500 to scrap their old cars and buy new models.

A comparison of 60 car model prices by Auto Motor und Sport found that car manufacturers were offering an average of 21 percent off. Opel dealers offered the highest discount of 42 percent for their old Astra model...."

At least C4C 'only' cost billions, and not a trillion -- the new billion.   I remember when a few billion seemed like a lot of money to spend on something wasteful and counterproductive.  I must be old.

47

Cake? Raaacist? Nevar!

Oh... "bake" does sorta kinda (in a flakey way) sound like "race", so maybe....

Guess we'll have to go with Bake Free^* products from now on.

* - otherwise known as "no bake", as in cookies (a fond memory for us of the *ahem* experienced generation...

48

Speaking as someone with a severe chemical reaction to Red Dye #40, red velvet cake is the incarnation of pure evil in pastry form.

Now Devils' Food -- that there is some good stuff.

49 Also, Cash for Clunkers is Teh Suck. But you already knew that.

50

Got this from my brother-in-law

Q. What is an Economic Stimulus payment?
A. It is money that the federal government will send to taxpayers.
Q. Where will the government get this money?
A. From taxpayers.
Q. So the government is giving me back my own money?
A. Only a smidgen.
Q. What is the purpose of this payment?
A. The plan is for you to use the money to purchase a high-definition TV set, thus stimulating the economy.
Q. But isn't that stimulating the economy of China ?
A. Shut up. Below is some helpful advice on how to best help the US economy by spending your stimulus check wisely :

• If you spend the stimulus money at Wal-Mart, the money will go to China .
• If you spend it on gasoline, your money will go to the Arabs.
• If you purchase a computer, it will go to India .
• If you purchase fruit and vegetables, it will go to Mexico , Honduras and Guatemala .
• If you buy a car, it will go to Japan or Korea .
• If you purchase useless stuff, it will go to Taiwan .
• If you pay your credit cards off, or buy stock, it will go to management bonuses and they will hide it offshore.

Instead, keep the money in America by :
1 spending it at yard sales, or
2 going to ball games, or
3 spending it on prostitutes, or
4 beer or
5 tattoos. (These are the only American businesses still operating in the US .)

 

Conclusion : Go to a ball game with a tattooed prostitute that you met at a yard sale and drink beer all day

51

Ah, not to get too far off (this is a MilBlog, after all), but "red dye # 40"????

WTF?

Any good cook from below the M-D line would sooner watch the feckless fools on the food channel than use dye in a true Red Velvet.

52 Jess, just what the heck do you think makes red food coloring red? Most recipes I know use a whole bottle of the stuff. What are you using?

53 Any good cook from below the M-D line would sooner watch the feckless fools on the food channel than use dye in a true Red Velvet. Where does one draw the line on Mogen David? Wouldn't it make the batter purple?

54

Enough MD & the batter falls down.

 

Heh.

55 Enough MD & the batter falls down Bottom of the fifth and the bags are loaded!

56 No joke, you use wine? This is a whole new world opened up to me ...

57

2. Edmunds also ignores the beneficial impact that the program will have on 4th Quarter GDP because automakers have ramped up their production to rebuild their depleted inventories.

Major automakers including GM, Ford, Honda and Chrysler all increased their production through the end of the year as a result of this program, which will help boost growth beyond the third quarter. The actions of private market participants, who would not increase production if they didn’t think demand for their product would be there through the end of the year, is a far better indicator of market dynamics – and one that Edmunds.com conveniently ignores.

This is pure fantasy. Car makers didn't ramp up crap. They were sitting on so much excess inventory it's ridiculous. If this worked out as they suggested does that mean they won't be closing all those dealerships? If you believe this car sales will just keep booming so much they will need them.

If these carmakers really did increase prodcution for the 4th quarter then the entire management should be fired. There isn't an economist in the country who think car sales are on the increase.

58

Joanna, you need some new recipes.

A true Red Velvet is made with traditional (not "Dutch press") chocolate which turns a deep reddish brown when cooked w/vinegar & buttermilk.  For a good final touch of color, spoon in a bit of beet juice into the batter.

Trust me, there's no dye anywhere near my Red Velvet cakes. Just soft, moist, chewy goodness.

59 No joke, you use wine? Actually, it was a joke, hatched in #53

60

"Shakespeare's point was something along the lines of protesting too loudly kinda makes you look bad"

More accurately, if you protest in a dramatic or drawn-out way, you're probably hiding something / lying.  Which makes you look bad, yes, if someone is perceptive enough to catch it.  Whereas if you're speaking truth it's likely straightforward.  If you're referencing Hamlet.  Methinks.

61 "The cake is a lie"

62

Now, back to our regularly scheduled programming...

 

Rocks @ 57 is correct.  No automaker is "ramping up" a da*n thing.

CfC could've had a decent impact in one way - if the approved "car" list had been banged up against inventories - but that didn't happen.

All it did was to move sales from one time period to another.  Nothing more, nothing less.

PS... well, not quite true - a # of dealers (bad, evil Rethuglicans all) took it in the *** since CfC "payouts" have been slim or none.

63 @57, I've also noticed Retail stores are not stocking as much inventory. It goes to the sidebar story - "The Year of John Galt".

A business owner yesterday on Glenn Beck complained about lack of credit lines for small business. This will snowball...

64

The Cake is NOT a lie,

Der Kuchen ist der Kuchen!!!

65 If this worked out as they suggested does that mean they won't be closing all those dealerships?

One thing is for sure.  Sales per dealership will explode upwards.  I wonder when they'll use that metric.

66

I, um ... Jess, I think I love you. *wipes away tear*

Seriously, I saw Paula Deen make it once (my mom watches her, don't judge me) and the batter looked like house paint. It made me twitchy just looking at it.

Vive la cake of truthiness!

67

This is pure fantasy. Car makers didn't ramp up crap. They were sitting on so much excess inventory it's ridiculous. If this worked out as they suggested does that mean they won't be closing all those dealerships? If you believe this car sales will just keep booming so much they will need them.

The funny thing is that the data clearly shows car sales dropped dramatically after C4C ended; in other words, demand was pulled forward so sales in the 4Q are going to be down as well.

The whole program was a moral hazard on so many levels.  Any car in the program had to be crushed and have its engine destroyed, instead of letting the dealer either clean it up and resell it, or recycle it for parts.  Americans who owned their current car free and clear added even more debt to their ledgers; I'd love to see the repo stats on these cars within a year, because high unemployment is going cause many people to default.  And all indicators right now show that Christmas is going to be very rough this year; consumer confidence is in the 40% range right now.  Since all the excess inventory is gone now, for the most part, dealers will have a hard time pushing any new vehicles they get on their lot by the end of the year, so the chances some dealerships close up next year are pretty damn good.

Overall, the whole criticism from the administration is so childish; Edmunds is a respected site that's helped a lot of people make decisions on their car purchases, in no small part to the consumer reviews that are posted.  That the White House would even pick a fight like this shows what a bunch of thin-skinned propogandists they are.  It's doubly ridiculous because the administration's counter-claims aren't even remotely accurate.

68 My boss calls this and the first time home buyers income tax credit the "Bankruptcy Lawyer's Employment Protection Act" and he is damn right. Those that took advantage of this program are those that might not have been able or wanted to buy a new car in the first place. Instead they get a paltry 4k and think it's time to go whole hog and trade in a car they might not owe anything on. they take home a new car, yes, but they also take the corresponding debt.

The same trick works for the home buyer credit. The fallout from creating even more debt is yet to be seen, but I know that bankruptcy might be the place to practice for the next few years.

69

shucks, ma'm, it was nothin.  It's my Mom's old recipe.

 

70 With all this incessant whining, the administration is doing everything they can to take ownership of the economy.  I can't wait to hear the noise when it tanks again and they realize that their programs didn't do anything in the long run except kick the can a little further down the road.

71 Its the "Help keep GE UAW Solvent Act of 2010"

FIFY

72 Heh, check out the bunker mentality already, and they haven't even gotten 5% of the hostile news barrage that was aimed at Dubya. When does full-nutbar paranoia mode set in?

73 This is actually getting funny, because no one is going to believe them when they continue to try to discredit EVERYONE

74 -- either by automation or by reallocation (moving overseas, cutting product-lines, whatever).

Same result, but isn't the thought process more like "well, I can get this done overseas cheaper, and since this recovery seems like a debt-financed house of cards, better to do that than hire real workers"

I don't think there will be a recovery until Obama and Pelosi are sufficiently neutralized to rule out deathcare taxes, and crap+trade taxes.  And that means no recovery, at the very least, until a year from now; election day, a year from now.

And Pelosi's and Reid offering yet another deathcare bill isn't helping; it looks dead, and then gets up again...

75 Dr. Steve @ 35: "They went straight from adjectives to assertion and skipped argument. I wish someone would just tell them they're not fooling anyone."

Au contraire--everything Obama's gang of marxists does is enthusiasically approved by at least half the electorate--including Senator Reid and Speaker Pelosi.  If Obama announced a program to flat-out *give* a house and car to everyone in the country, half the people would praise it as a brilliant idea.  The MSM would gush about how Obastard "really cares" about people--unlike those evil, hard-hearted Rethuglicans.

Lest you think this is hyperbole:  Look at the praise Ogabe has won for programs that are nothing more than government giving cash to potential voters.  Cash for clunkers, mortgage subsidies, mortgage renegotiation to easier terms, and now socialized medicine--all government giveaways.

Of course it never occurs to the recipients to wonder where the money comes from--as one welfare queen remarked, "it's Obama's money."

Far too many people believe you can get something for nothing.

And the rest of us are willing to play by their rules and let them run the country.

I've about had enough of that, thanks.

76 Question: Do you trust the White House or Edmunds.com?
Democrats: The White House! And you're unpatriotic if you don't!
America: Are you serious?

77 The White House proved that the "analyses" was wrong by putting quotes around "analyses."

78 Hmmm... seeing B's HO's punching back twice as hard at every valid criticism, it's interesting to ruminate on what would be different in the world today if we'd seen even 1/10th this much pushback from the Bush Administration every time The Left Wing Media let loose with a bona fide lie.

79 Now this is getting to be almost comical. 

What next?  Chastising TV Guide for providing listings of Fox shows? 

80 So, here I am with no job, but cash in hand, looking at long term devaluation. I used Edmunds.com to come up with my decision.

I traded in a 12 year old GM clunker that needed more work than it was worth to get roadworthy again, for $4.5K towards a new Toyota pickup. I owned that clunker outright, and paid cash for the new truck, so I own it debt free, too.

Thanks for the subsidy morons!


 

81 It's worse than you figure, in real life low life scum would have looted the sexy lingerie with no Sexy Costumes body of the pilot whether he was dead or not. Remember the Oakland freeway collapse? In the end, there will be nothing but chaos. H/T Kratos.

82 I noticed the start of that and pointed it out in yesterdays Edmunds thread when I said:

The thing that got me is that rather then just repeating the line that the program was a success the DOT guy had to attack Edmunds.  This is true in all liberal arguments, there not based primarily in facts but in partisan hate and attacks.

"It is unfortunate that Edmunds.com has had nothing but negative things to say about a wildly successful program that sold nearly 250,000 cars in its first four days alone," said Bill Adams, spokesman for the Department of Transportation.

This really is a government of whiners and children, top to bottom!
David

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