August 31, 2005
Looting For Survival
— Ace Many are distinguishing between looting for suvival-goods -- water, food, diapers, etc. -- and simply looting for profit -- DVD players, jewelry, etc.
— Ace Many are distinguishing between looting for suvival-goods -- water, food, diapers, etc. -- and simply looting for profit -- DVD players, jewelry, etc.
I think that's a fair distinction. Anyone caught in the disaster area doesn't have the goods-delivery system they've come to depend upon, and they simply don't know when the National Guard or relief organizations will come to help distribute them.
Notions about the rule of law tend to go out the window when you don't know if you'll have drinkable water in two days' time, or if your baby will have milk.
One woman shown repeatedly on CNN looting a store had her arms filled with what look like Huggies or something. Obviously she's not planning to make a financial windfall in the high-profit black-market trade in disposable diapers with elastic gatherers and super-absorbant Flexi-Wings (TM). (She also attempted to cover her face with pack of diapers, which demonstrates shame, which is a mark in her favor.)
Of course, looters take property from its rightful owner, and from others who may need the property too. But allowances have to be made when people are literally in fear about whether they'll drink or eat in the next couple of days.
"You loot, I'll shoot" is a nice sign, but I hope there's some discretion used here. Almost every shopowner will be made whole through insurance, after all.
On the other hand, those looting ATM's, jewelry stores, and electronics stores are simply theives acting on opportunity, and should be treated as such. And, yes, shot if they do not submit peaceably to arrest, whether a police arrest or citizen's arrest by a shopowner.
Allowances have to be made on the other side of the ledger, too. Those who wish to defend their property can't rely on civil authorities to enforce order during a period of chaos, either.
Posted by: Ace at
08:22 AM
| Comments (68)
Post contains 314 words, total size 2 kb.
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Does hiding your face equate to shame, or to the knowledge that when caught on film, you can be identified and then perhaps charged with a crime at a later date? I saw some fellows rolling racks of clothes down a street, hiding their 'shame'.
Didn't look like survival clothes.
More like high-priced items.
And I don't think those dresses were those fellows' size...
Didn't look like survival clothes.
More like high-priced items.
And I don't think those dresses were those fellows' size...
Posted by: Uncle Jefe at August 31, 2005 08:33 AM (xuO8w)
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Like the age old moralty question of whether it's still wrong to steal a loaf of bread if your family is starving. I tend to make greater allowances for those with children. Still, does the pampers woman have a responsibility to make ammends for her crime?
Posted by: Defense Guy at August 31, 2005 08:36 AM (jPCiN)
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Yes, but if she's ID'd, shouldn't she just be forced to pay for the diapers?
Presumably, absent the chaos, she would have bought them. But the store was deserted and locked up.
Presumably, absent the chaos, she would have bought them. But the store was deserted and locked up.
Posted by: ace at August 31, 2005 08:40 AM (W7JEQ)
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A looter is a looter. Do you really think any of those people would starve to death if they didn't steal from these stores? They knew a hurricane was coming far enough in advance to stock up. They also had the opportunity to go to a shelter if they couldn't afford to stock up. I'm not in favor of shooting people for stealing but I am in favor of a significant effort to arrest and convict them.
Posted by: BrewFan at August 31, 2005 08:51 AM (Byr3j)
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I would agree with that, Ace, to a point. If I were trapped in some sort of natural disaster like Katrina, and the only way I could obtain food, water and medical supplies for my family and neighbors was by breaking into an abandoned store, I'd have to do it. That sort of "looting" would be justifiable in the gravest extreme, much as homicide is.
However, I would add one caveat: the authorities have no business making statements like that. Publicly stating that some types of looting are OK would simply lead to more of it, and too many of the people currently doing that in NOLA and Biloxi are looking for plunder, not food and water. The proper place for mercy would be in the courts after the fact, where prosecuters, judges and juries can sort out whether a given "looter" was trying to survive or was simply helping himself to other people's belongings.
As far as the "You loot, we shoot" argument goes, please keep in mind that the only law enforcement available in most of the areas devastated by Katrina right now consists of private citizens with guns. In NOLA especially, you're looking at "Lord of the Flies on the bayou" right now. Sorry to be so callous, but seeing a couple of corpses with stolen color TVs still clutched in their dead hands and bullet holes in their heads would do a lot more to curb the lawless than any number of weepy press conferences by Louisiana's hand-wringing Democrat governor.
However, I would add one caveat: the authorities have no business making statements like that. Publicly stating that some types of looting are OK would simply lead to more of it, and too many of the people currently doing that in NOLA and Biloxi are looking for plunder, not food and water. The proper place for mercy would be in the courts after the fact, where prosecuters, judges and juries can sort out whether a given "looter" was trying to survive or was simply helping himself to other people's belongings.
As far as the "You loot, we shoot" argument goes, please keep in mind that the only law enforcement available in most of the areas devastated by Katrina right now consists of private citizens with guns. In NOLA especially, you're looking at "Lord of the Flies on the bayou" right now. Sorry to be so callous, but seeing a couple of corpses with stolen color TVs still clutched in their dead hands and bullet holes in their heads would do a lot more to curb the lawless than any number of weepy press conferences by Louisiana's hand-wringing Democrat governor.
Posted by: Wes S. at August 31, 2005 08:53 AM (MBpwU)
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Today I'm beginning to wonder why pallets of MRE's, water, and some Zodiac's are not being LAPE'd into the most cut off areas...
That should have been able to be organized by now.
That should have been able to be organized by now.
Posted by: Tony at August 31, 2005 08:56 AM (dYcZw)
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The proper place for mercy would be in the courts after the fact, where prosecuters, judges and juries can sort out whether a given "looter" was trying to survive or was simply helping himself to other people's belongings.
I agree, Wes, on the legal analysis, but as a practical matter I don't think there's going to be much of that going on here.
This city is in full-tilt chaos. The entire civic system is non-functional. It will be a long time before the courts are back to working, if ever.
This is just unbelieveable. It's like a plague city or something.
I agree, Wes, on the legal analysis, but as a practical matter I don't think there's going to be much of that going on here.
This city is in full-tilt chaos. The entire civic system is non-functional. It will be a long time before the courts are back to working, if ever.
This is just unbelieveable. It's like a plague city or something.
Posted by: Phinn at August 31, 2005 09:00 AM (DiZv6)
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That should have been able to be organized by now.
My family and I lived through the double-strike hurricanes of Florida last year. Do you know who provided us with water?
Not FEMA. Not the State of Florida. Not the National Guard.
The Scientologists.
No one has been actually able to show me what exactly FEMA does. They hold a lot of news conferences and talk about "planning" and "preparedness," and they have these nice shiny SUVs and polo shirts with nifty insignia. But I've been through three hurricanes now and have yet to see them actually supply something.
My family and I lived through the double-strike hurricanes of Florida last year. Do you know who provided us with water?
Not FEMA. Not the State of Florida. Not the National Guard.
The Scientologists.
No one has been actually able to show me what exactly FEMA does. They hold a lot of news conferences and talk about "planning" and "preparedness," and they have these nice shiny SUVs and polo shirts with nifty insignia. But I've been through three hurricanes now and have yet to see them actually supply something.
Posted by: Phinn at August 31, 2005 09:05 AM (DiZv6)
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Sorry, Ace, "looting for necessity" is theft, ESPECIALLY if the owner of the facility locked the place up in the hopes of preserving something for after the storm. If this dumbf*** woman didn't stock up on diapers beforehand, then she's not entitiled to free ones now.
Later,
bbeck
Later,
bbeck
Posted by: bbeck at August 31, 2005 09:18 AM (qF8q3)
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Drawing a distinction between looters is a fairly loaded question, and using the argument "they should have prepared" to cast negative aspersions on their actions is oversimplifying.
Case in point, hypothetically - California residents can be victimized by Earthquakes at any time, so most of us have a well stocked disaster prep cache, in my case a Rubbermaid shed in my back patio filled with all sorts of useful stuff. Now, if we get hit, and a wall collapses on my cache, and destroys it, I will have to resort to looting to stay alive. The argument that I didn't prepare is invalid, as I did prepare but was trumped by Murphy's Law.
What's to say that some of the "basic needs" looters we are seeing today had prepared adequately, but didn't expect their house and supplies to be under 15 feet of water?
Even the luxury looters - have you ever considered what type of currency you'd use to gain goods and services in a "Lord of the Flies" situation? I'm not trying to justify stealing a TV in a powerless, underwater city, but certainly jewelry or rifle rounds could buy you some diapers in a barter system.
There are way to many variables and unknowns about what is really going on down there...
Case in point, hypothetically - California residents can be victimized by Earthquakes at any time, so most of us have a well stocked disaster prep cache, in my case a Rubbermaid shed in my back patio filled with all sorts of useful stuff. Now, if we get hit, and a wall collapses on my cache, and destroys it, I will have to resort to looting to stay alive. The argument that I didn't prepare is invalid, as I did prepare but was trumped by Murphy's Law.
What's to say that some of the "basic needs" looters we are seeing today had prepared adequately, but didn't expect their house and supplies to be under 15 feet of water?
Even the luxury looters - have you ever considered what type of currency you'd use to gain goods and services in a "Lord of the Flies" situation? I'm not trying to justify stealing a TV in a powerless, underwater city, but certainly jewelry or rifle rounds could buy you some diapers in a barter system.
There are way to many variables and unknowns about what is really going on down there...
Posted by: Josh at August 31, 2005 09:18 AM (S6Wcf)
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When Charley hit last year, the manager of the convenience store next door asked me if I wanted any food. His company had told him to hand out everything perishable and write it off.
A lot of people got free ice cream that day.
A lot of people got free ice cream that day.
Posted by: cirby at August 31, 2005 09:21 AM (fY33n)
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Yes, Josh, I took into account that 'luxury looters' might be thinking in terms of currency. But why not take it to the end of that argument and say that we could justify it all by who's on what end of the gun?
My shotgun is my currency- gimmee. Gimmee your food, water, your daughter, your life.
These folks that are doing the looting are not some bed-ridden grannies that couldn't get out of town.
They had every opportunity to leave.
They had every opportunity to prepare otherwise.
They chose to stay, and no doubt for many, to have just this opportunity to loot.
Could Murphy's Law lead some to take what's needed? No doubt.
But there's not too many excuses for most of these scum.
My shotgun is my currency- gimmee. Gimmee your food, water, your daughter, your life.
These folks that are doing the looting are not some bed-ridden grannies that couldn't get out of town.
They had every opportunity to leave.
They had every opportunity to prepare otherwise.
They chose to stay, and no doubt for many, to have just this opportunity to loot.
Could Murphy's Law lead some to take what's needed? No doubt.
But there's not too many excuses for most of these scum.
Posted by: Uncle Jefe at August 31, 2005 09:27 AM (xuO8w)
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What's to say that some of the "basic needs" looters we are seeing today had prepared adequately, but didn't expect their house and supplies to be under 15 feet of water?
The looting would STILL be wrong. You're not entitled to other people's property just because you NEED it.
Later,
bbeck
The looting would STILL be wrong. You're not entitled to other people's property just because you NEED it.
Later,
bbeck
Posted by: bbeck at August 31, 2005 09:28 AM (qF8q3)
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Our criticism of looters needs to include the NO police, who are apparently helping themselves to a variety of non-"basic needs" items.
Posted by: geoff at August 31, 2005 09:37 AM (J0ZE/)
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Looting's wrong, of course, but it's morally justifiable, like it's morally justifiable to kill, cook, and eat your best friend when you're stranged in the woods for hours on end.
At least, I hope that's morally justifiable.
I was fuckin' hungry, man. And then we got into an argument about who fucked up with the compass and he said "Eat me" and, well, I just thought it would be funny.
At least, I hope that's morally justifiable.
I was fuckin' hungry, man. And then we got into an argument about who fucked up with the compass and he said "Eat me" and, well, I just thought it would be funny.
Posted by: ace at August 31, 2005 09:38 AM (W7JEQ)
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Uncle Jefe - There are too many factors to judge right and wrong at this point. Who's to say that the picture of teenagers looting clothes aren't retrieving articles for their parents/grandparents/etc? Too many unknowns. Unfortunately, there may be more people than we know that are simply exploiting this tragedy.
bbeck - Then you can starve. I won't. WalMart needs their product a lot less than I need the food. Of course, I'd be more than happy to leave money on the counter where the cash register used to be, but I won't starve or go barefoot for who knows how long.
ace - Was he delicious?
bbeck - Then you can starve. I won't. WalMart needs their product a lot less than I need the food. Of course, I'd be more than happy to leave money on the counter where the cash register used to be, but I won't starve or go barefoot for who knows how long.
ace - Was he delicious?
Posted by: Josh at August 31, 2005 09:40 AM (S6Wcf)
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No allowances shall be made! None shall escape justice!
Posted by: Inspector Javert at August 31, 2005 09:40 AM (kUNrb)
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What about all the poor crackheads? They still need their drugs, and a VCR still buys a $20 rock in my neck of the woods. Fascists.
Posted by: Defense Guy at August 31, 2005 09:42 AM (jPCiN)
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Phinn, consider what the acronym FEMA stands for, especially the M. FEMA isn't the feet on the ground at the disaster site. They are the management group back behind the lines trying to organize the various agencies that might put workers on site.
The idea is to make the best use of available resources rather than multiple agencies duplicating each others efforts. How well that works in practice is another story but in general the people dealing directly with survivors aren't going wear FEMA windbreakers.
The idea is to make the best use of available resources rather than multiple agencies duplicating each others efforts. How well that works in practice is another story but in general the people dealing directly with survivors aren't going wear FEMA windbreakers.
Posted by: epobirs at August 31, 2005 09:45 AM (51CH/)
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I understand that, epobirs.
What raises the red flags for me is that they insist on the exclusive use of fuzzy bureaucrat-speak.
Even if FEMA spends all its time and money directing and coordinating and managing, if they weren't bogged down with infinite layers of bureaucratic redundancy, they would occasionally manage to share some concrete information about food, water, power, gasoline. That sort of thing.
All we ever heard was "we're working hard" and "preparedness plan .... coordinating officials blah blah blah."
I swear, it's they spend more time on PR trying to justify their budget than they do disseminating helpful resources or information.
What raises the red flags for me is that they insist on the exclusive use of fuzzy bureaucrat-speak.
Even if FEMA spends all its time and money directing and coordinating and managing, if they weren't bogged down with infinite layers of bureaucratic redundancy, they would occasionally manage to share some concrete information about food, water, power, gasoline. That sort of thing.
All we ever heard was "we're working hard" and "preparedness plan .... coordinating officials blah blah blah."
I swear, it's they spend more time on PR trying to justify their budget than they do disseminating helpful resources or information.
Posted by: Phinn at August 31, 2005 10:00 AM (DiZv6)
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"There are too many factors to judge right and wrong at this point"
wtf? Stealing is wrong, josh. Sorry you don't see it that way but its true. Your attempt to rationalize these behaviors by creating fantastic scenarios doesn't change that fact either.
wtf? Stealing is wrong, josh. Sorry you don't see it that way but its true. Your attempt to rationalize these behaviors by creating fantastic scenarios doesn't change that fact either.
Posted by: BrewFan at August 31, 2005 10:03 AM (Byr3j)
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I think what Josh is trying to say is don't store your survival cache in front of a collapsible wall.
Posted by: Dman at August 31, 2005 10:21 AM (m2CN7)
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They knew a hurricane was coming far enough in advance to stock up.
Damn right, and I'm sick of everybody having to pander to people with children. Did I tell you to have children? No, you decided to reproduce and then expect the world to cater to you. You made the decision, you take care of them, leave me out of it.
Damn right, and I'm sick of everybody having to pander to people with children. Did I tell you to have children? No, you decided to reproduce and then expect the world to cater to you. You made the decision, you take care of them, leave me out of it.
Posted by: Lipstick at August 31, 2005 10:29 AM (QX681)
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I'm of two minds on this subject. Every one of those storeowners is going to claim a complete loss or even pad the inventory some. Yes, looting is wrong but none of us debating this fact is going to having to live in this kind of environment for the next few months. You don't get to go back to your job on Monday, you may not have access to your bank account, and you have no idea when or where any sort of help is going to come from. But if they impose martial law and shag your ass out of there what good is the stuff you looted? On the other hand there was advanced enough warning for healthy able-bodied people to leave the area. The mere fact that human resources are being taken from any sort of rescue effort just to protect property is unconscionable. The thing that makes me feel as if my Cheerios have been pee'd upon is that I have yet to hear of any relief efforts being offered from our "friends" throughout the world. Lord knows we've put it out there for any of them time and time again.
Posted by: Tres at August 31, 2005 10:33 AM (6krEN)
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Its all well and good to point fingers and say 'they had a chance to prevent this' but it doesn't change the fact that these people are stuck now, and are going to die if they don't get food and water.
If you'd rather die, and your children die, than steal food and water, that is up to you. But you can hardly expect others to blame themselves for not preparing, and summarily lay down to die.
Now, stealing stereos and bling...that is just bullshit.
If you'd rather die, and your children die, than steal food and water, that is up to you. But you can hardly expect others to blame themselves for not preparing, and summarily lay down to die.
Now, stealing stereos and bling...that is just bullshit.
Posted by: lauraw at August 31, 2005 10:55 AM (0+tK7)
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OK, BrewFan, than you can die. No one is going to force you to overcome your situation and survive. Roll over if you want - I just don't have that in me. IMO, speculation in front of your desk is a lot different than being in a situation where you either do or die, quite literally.
Posted by: Josh at August 31, 2005 11:12 AM (S6Wcf)
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Oh, I forgot - that fantastic scenario that I mentioned? That happened to my family in Northridge in '94, before we moved to San Diego. I was 11, and I'll never forget the feeling of helplessness that resulted from our house and goods being flattened.
And now my EQ kit is as far away from collapsible walls as possible.
And now my EQ kit is as far away from collapsible walls as possible.
Posted by: Josh at August 31, 2005 11:17 AM (S6Wcf)
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Looting's wrong, of course, but it's morally justifiable, like it's morally justifiable to kill, cook, and eat your best friend when you're stranged in the woods for hours on end.
Let's hope YOU get the idea to do it before your buddy does, Ace.
bbeck - Then you can starve. I won't.
Well, in the words of Heinlein: it's better to be a dead hero than a live louse. Have fun being a live louse.
You know, there are thousands of people on this planet who starve to death, die from exposure, and/or croak because they lack the proper needs, and we have people here saying, "They should have STOLEN to stay alive, because if they NEED it then it's okay!" Oh, it's okay in an emergency, you say? Well, goodness, what's a bigger emergency than DYING if you don't get it?
And of course people are overlooking the fact that the looting -- whether it's necessities or something else -- makes it that much harder for order to be established by the authorities, but hey, it's what YOU deem necessary so screw the big picture along with the morality.
This IS a conservative site, right? I thought the DUmmies were the only ones with the looting-is-okay-because-of-the-circumstances attitude.
Later,
bbeck
Let's hope YOU get the idea to do it before your buddy does, Ace.
bbeck - Then you can starve. I won't.
Well, in the words of Heinlein: it's better to be a dead hero than a live louse. Have fun being a live louse.
You know, there are thousands of people on this planet who starve to death, die from exposure, and/or croak because they lack the proper needs, and we have people here saying, "They should have STOLEN to stay alive, because if they NEED it then it's okay!" Oh, it's okay in an emergency, you say? Well, goodness, what's a bigger emergency than DYING if you don't get it?
And of course people are overlooking the fact that the looting -- whether it's necessities or something else -- makes it that much harder for order to be established by the authorities, but hey, it's what YOU deem necessary so screw the big picture along with the morality.
This IS a conservative site, right? I thought the DUmmies were the only ones with the looting-is-okay-because-of-the-circumstances attitude.
Later,
bbeck
Posted by: bbeck at August 31, 2005 11:18 AM (qF8q3)
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"but it doesn't change the fact that these people are stuck now, and are going to die if they don't get food and water."
"...lot different than being in a situation where you either do or die, quite literally"
The problem with the scenarios you guys are putting forth is that they are hypothetical. *Nobody* yesterday was in danger of starvation or dehydration. So what was the rationalization for stealing then? And, I would bet nobody is in danger of starvation today either. Maybe I'm more cynical but my guess is that 99.99% of the people who are stealing are doing so based on greed and not survival.
"...lot different than being in a situation where you either do or die, quite literally"
The problem with the scenarios you guys are putting forth is that they are hypothetical. *Nobody* yesterday was in danger of starvation or dehydration. So what was the rationalization for stealing then? And, I would bet nobody is in danger of starvation today either. Maybe I'm more cynical but my guess is that 99.99% of the people who are stealing are doing so based on greed and not survival.
Posted by: BrewFan at August 31, 2005 11:20 AM (Byr3j)
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I especially like the line about insurance picking up the tab. It's a good thing insurance companies are authorized by the government to print as much money as they need to cover losses. Otherwise, they might have to raise premiums or something.
I know, why not just have "national loss insurance" so people could just walk into a store and take what they need any time, not just after a natural disaster?
I know, why not just have "national loss insurance" so people could just walk into a store and take what they need any time, not just after a natural disaster?
Posted by: OCBill at August 31, 2005 11:20 AM (bN6S/)
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I understand the need to take what you need in order not to 'die' but for goodness sakes, it was not even 24 hours before the looting started.
Posted by: Dman at August 31, 2005 11:23 AM (m2CN7)
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Josh:
I helped out the Red Cross one early morning distributing supplies to Northridge refugees. I came away with a couple of impressions: 1) aid came, but it was too much too late; and 2) the Red Cross boasts of incredibly low overheads, but that's because there's nobody in charge. I got there expecting to be dumb labor, but this other volunteer and I ended up running the show, deciding which camps would get how much of what. There was no Red Cross official involved at all. I even had to do all the calculations for divvying things up in my head, since the Red Cross didn't have a calculator.
I helped out the Red Cross one early morning distributing supplies to Northridge refugees. I came away with a couple of impressions: 1) aid came, but it was too much too late; and 2) the Red Cross boasts of incredibly low overheads, but that's because there's nobody in charge. I got there expecting to be dumb labor, but this other volunteer and I ended up running the show, deciding which camps would get how much of what. There was no Red Cross official involved at all. I even had to do all the calculations for divvying things up in my head, since the Red Cross didn't have a calculator.
Posted by: geoff at August 31, 2005 11:27 AM (J0ZE/)
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"This IS a conservative site, right? I thought the DUmmies were the only ones with the looting-is-okay-because-of-the-circumstances attitude."
You'd be amazed how that changes in a survival situation, but then you may not ever have been in one, and hopefully never will. It's easy to have a true moral compass when you aren't watching your family and friends die from exposure or starvation without doing anything about it.
What amazes me, as a conservative and avid AoSHQ reader, is that so many of you usual suspects would rather die than deviate from your normative behaviors. I guess it must be my natural vanity that won't let me allow myself to die. Does that make me a bad conservative? Maybe. But it (might) make me a live one.
You'd be amazed how that changes in a survival situation, but then you may not ever have been in one, and hopefully never will. It's easy to have a true moral compass when you aren't watching your family and friends die from exposure or starvation without doing anything about it.
What amazes me, as a conservative and avid AoSHQ reader, is that so many of you usual suspects would rather die than deviate from your normative behaviors. I guess it must be my natural vanity that won't let me allow myself to die. Does that make me a bad conservative? Maybe. But it (might) make me a live one.
Posted by: Josh at August 31, 2005 11:31 AM (S6Wcf)
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But I've been through three hurricanes now and have yet to see them actually supply something.
Indeed. My development (800+ houses) caught a goo dose of two of the hurricanes. Nobody came by to see of anyone needed anything.
A small handful of people wound up with FEMA tarps several weeks later, but that was it. Prior to the first hurricane I stocked up on roof tar and some roofing felt and glass cloth. My prepositioned "patch materiel cache" is what did temp repairs for people on my street.
It was my cordless hammer drill and tapcon supply that helped board up about a half dozen houses on the street too since most of these suburban dwellers are completely incompetent when it comes to building tools or materiels. I keep working on people's places until the winds got too high to stay outside safely...
FEMA is a joke - they push paper.
Some savvy load masters and willing pilots should be able to organize relief drops in a matter of hours if the moron administrators would simply authorize their planes to fly.
Indeed. My development (800+ houses) caught a goo dose of two of the hurricanes. Nobody came by to see of anyone needed anything.
A small handful of people wound up with FEMA tarps several weeks later, but that was it. Prior to the first hurricane I stocked up on roof tar and some roofing felt and glass cloth. My prepositioned "patch materiel cache" is what did temp repairs for people on my street.
It was my cordless hammer drill and tapcon supply that helped board up about a half dozen houses on the street too since most of these suburban dwellers are completely incompetent when it comes to building tools or materiels. I keep working on people's places until the winds got too high to stay outside safely...
FEMA is a joke - they push paper.
Some savvy load masters and willing pilots should be able to organize relief drops in a matter of hours if the moron administrators would simply authorize their planes to fly.
Posted by: Tony at August 31, 2005 11:36 AM (dYcZw)
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Geoff - That sounds about right. We saw insurance claims adjustors before we saw any aid workers, but most of the neighborhood where we lived was still standing so it wasn't an incredibly hard hit area, like further west. Only 4 houses on our block collapsed - stupid 1940's construction...Anyway, thanks for your help out there. That was one wild ride, and all of the people that managed to bond together and overcome it were incredible.
Posted by: Josh at August 31, 2005 11:36 AM (S6Wcf)
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Josh,
No one is dying from exposure or starvation. They are stealing, Josh, s-t-e-a-l-i-n-g. They are walking past the grocery store to get to Best Buy. When they're done there, then they'll come back to the grocery store.
No one is dying from exposure or starvation. They are stealing, Josh, s-t-e-a-l-i-n-g. They are walking past the grocery store to get to Best Buy. When they're done there, then they'll come back to the grocery store.
Posted by: BrewFan at August 31, 2005 11:40 AM (Byr3j)
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There is a distinct difference, though most of you are likely to see it as more black and white than it is. LOOTING for stuff, ie at BestBuy, is much different than getting food. Go back and see if you can see me advocating stealing for the sake of stealing.
Aside from my first post where I posited a hypothetical akin to Lord of the Flies, I never mention it again. My whole point is that if me or loved ones were DYING, yes I would be a looter. If my dad needed shoes to walk out of harms way with me, yes I'd steal them. If my friend needed a big screen, fuck 'im, no friend of mine. Big differences...
Aside from my first post where I posited a hypothetical akin to Lord of the Flies, I never mention it again. My whole point is that if me or loved ones were DYING, yes I would be a looter. If my dad needed shoes to walk out of harms way with me, yes I'd steal them. If my friend needed a big screen, fuck 'im, no friend of mine. Big differences...
Posted by: Josh at August 31, 2005 12:03 PM (S6Wcf)
38
Just wanted to clear up one small point - insurance neither makes one whole after a disaster nor was it designed to (that's why it's called a loss after all). It was designed to spread risk amongst many making reducing the loss to any one individual.
Perhaps this false impression is why insurance rates are so high?
However on point this is really a tough dilemma - steal or starve is not a good choice for any of us, but I would say in that situation every single one of us would steal.
DKK
Perhaps this false impression is why insurance rates are so high?
However on point this is really a tough dilemma - steal or starve is not a good choice for any of us, but I would say in that situation every single one of us would steal.
DKK
Posted by: LifeTrek at August 31, 2005 12:32 PM (1pVVo)
39
It comes down to what people can justify in their minds as being morally okay. Robbing a store of their water okay, robbing an individual of their water not okay?
Posted by: Dman at August 31, 2005 12:42 PM (m2CN7)
40
Does that make me a bad conservative?
No, it makes you a bad PERSON, which is a bit of a difference. If YOU are taking goods that don't belong to you, then you may very well be depriving someone in even a worse position than you are...and they may even have a greater claim on them than you do.
And, as Dman points out...
Robbing a store of their water okay, robbing an individual of their water not okay?
...you're STILL taking from SOMEONE when you're taking from a STORE, it's just easier because it's a faceless crime.
As Brew and others have pointed out, these people aren't in a life-or-death situation, and not enough time has elapsed to even remotely justify theft in Josh's limited situation.
Furthermore, once you start saying "It's okay to steal food to save your life," then justifications can be made for stealing OTHER necessities. Blankets? Radios? Medications? Clothing? Heck, people die of heat stroke in the South, so be sure to steal a 5000 btu generator, plenty of gas, and a good air conditioner! AND, since we're in a Road Warrior scenario, take the TVs and VCRs so you can TRADE for the food someone got to first!
You'd be amazed how that changes in a survival situation, but then you may not ever have been in one, and hopefully never will.
Thanks, but as you can see, I know exactly what I'd do, and what I wouldn't do.
Later,
bbeck
No, it makes you a bad PERSON, which is a bit of a difference. If YOU are taking goods that don't belong to you, then you may very well be depriving someone in even a worse position than you are...and they may even have a greater claim on them than you do.
And, as Dman points out...
Robbing a store of their water okay, robbing an individual of their water not okay?
...you're STILL taking from SOMEONE when you're taking from a STORE, it's just easier because it's a faceless crime.
As Brew and others have pointed out, these people aren't in a life-or-death situation, and not enough time has elapsed to even remotely justify theft in Josh's limited situation.
Furthermore, once you start saying "It's okay to steal food to save your life," then justifications can be made for stealing OTHER necessities. Blankets? Radios? Medications? Clothing? Heck, people die of heat stroke in the South, so be sure to steal a 5000 btu generator, plenty of gas, and a good air conditioner! AND, since we're in a Road Warrior scenario, take the TVs and VCRs so you can TRADE for the food someone got to first!
You'd be amazed how that changes in a survival situation, but then you may not ever have been in one, and hopefully never will.
Thanks, but as you can see, I know exactly what I'd do, and what I wouldn't do.
Later,
bbeck
Posted by: bbeck at August 31, 2005 01:08 PM (qF8q3)
41
bbeck, I'm glad you "know" what you'd do. I hope you never have to have your will tested in the real world. How is the view from up there, BTW?
Posted by: Josh at August 31, 2005 01:54 PM (S6Wcf)
42
Lipstick:
and I'm sick of everybody having to pander to people with children. Did I tell you to have children? No, you decided to reproduce and then expect the world to cater to you. You made the decision, you take care of them, leave me out of it.
That's bullsh#t. Did a helpless two year old ask to be born? Did the child ask to be dependant on someone that can't/won't provide for them? No child should starve if there is food at hand. The world doesn't cater to the PARENT... the world should cater to the CHILD. Not to sound like a sappy moonbat (i.e. "the children are the future"), but there is something to be said for providing for helpless innocents.
That said, the parents should be held accountable for the value of the food/supplies looted. There needs to be an accounting in the end. Most moral people would understand the need to loot for neccesities. They also would understand that the looters are responsible for reimbursing the owner after the emergency passes.
and I'm sick of everybody having to pander to people with children. Did I tell you to have children? No, you decided to reproduce and then expect the world to cater to you. You made the decision, you take care of them, leave me out of it.
That's bullsh#t. Did a helpless two year old ask to be born? Did the child ask to be dependant on someone that can't/won't provide for them? No child should starve if there is food at hand. The world doesn't cater to the PARENT... the world should cater to the CHILD. Not to sound like a sappy moonbat (i.e. "the children are the future"), but there is something to be said for providing for helpless innocents.
That said, the parents should be held accountable for the value of the food/supplies looted. There needs to be an accounting in the end. Most moral people would understand the need to loot for neccesities. They also would understand that the looters are responsible for reimbursing the owner after the emergency passes.
Posted by: Matt at August 31, 2005 04:08 PM (dgwts)
43
I'd also note that the situation in N.O. does not bode well for similar situations in the future. If the authorities can't protect people's property in their absence, the next time that a natural disaster is imminent--and the call goes out to evacuate--some otherwise rational actors may decide to bunker down in order to protect their possessions from the hordes of looters that, given the N.O. example, can be expected.
Next time around, it may not remind us so much of Lord of the Flies as Lord of the Flyswatters.
Next time around, it may not remind us so much of Lord of the Flies as Lord of the Flyswatters.
Posted by: Matt at August 31, 2005 04:16 PM (dgwts)
44
Sounds like some of you out there who've been through some "natural disaster" or somesuch have a hankerin' to slide right down that slippery slope of relativism. Dangerous place, there.
I can't say as I wouldn't loot if I were in a similar situation - AFTER I got really hungry or thirsty. 20 hours doesn't make a whole bunch of people in these United States real hungry or thirsty. Hunger pains? Maybe, even probably. But on-the-edge-of-starvation? I really don't think so.
And BTW, if I was in that situation, and it did get to starvation looting or dying, that still has nothing to do with whether it's right or wrong. It only has to do with whether I would live or die. And that's all. Stealing, even for survival, is still stealing.
Finally, I have a hard time picturing any of the looters of the finer things in life (like widescreens and nice clothes) will ever be back to the stores they're putting out of business and offer to make the proprietor whole. Just doesn't add up, to me.
I can't say as I wouldn't loot if I were in a similar situation - AFTER I got really hungry or thirsty. 20 hours doesn't make a whole bunch of people in these United States real hungry or thirsty. Hunger pains? Maybe, even probably. But on-the-edge-of-starvation? I really don't think so.
And BTW, if I was in that situation, and it did get to starvation looting or dying, that still has nothing to do with whether it's right or wrong. It only has to do with whether I would live or die. And that's all. Stealing, even for survival, is still stealing.
Finally, I have a hard time picturing any of the looters of the finer things in life (like widescreens and nice clothes) will ever be back to the stores they're putting out of business and offer to make the proprietor whole. Just doesn't add up, to me.
Posted by: Carlos at August 31, 2005 05:09 PM (/RF5n)
45
If you go to Michele Catalano's site, you will see that doctors, under police protection, raided a pharmacy and took (stole) all the drugs. They are basically staging a M*A*S*H unit at the Ritz Carlton in NO.
What bastards. Don't they know that those drugs, that they are using to treat themselves and people injured in the hurricane and flood, belong to Walgreens?
Who is going to pay for that?
What bastards. Don't they know that those drugs, that they are using to treat themselves and people injured in the hurricane and flood, belong to Walgreens?
Who is going to pay for that?
Posted by: lauraw at August 31, 2005 05:34 PM (ywZa8)
46
It isn't a slippery slope of relativism. it's the hard facts of reality. I have a 10 month old. That boy is going to eat if I have to beg, borrow, or steal it. I would be surprised to find many honestly say they would do differently for their family. Yes, you may have stocked up before hand, but I remember what it was like to have $20 in my wallet and know it had to last me a week. And that isn't even the point. Your suggestion that that all looting should be considered equal leaves out the reality of the situation. Which is more immoral? Letting your child go dirty and hungry for a higher principal? Or feeding and clothing that child with items that will soon be destroyed by rising waters anyway?
Yes it is still stealing. No one can dispute that. But sometimes (pardon the liberal phrase) there are shades of gray.
Yes it is still stealing. No one can dispute that. But sometimes (pardon the liberal phrase) there are shades of gray.
Posted by: Silk at August 31, 2005 09:01 PM (6lUcn)
47
If the authorities can't protect people's property in their absence...
There is no legal obligation for them to protect your property - or your life for that matter.
This has been tested at the SCOTUS level MANY times. There's no obligation for the police to protect you and no recourse when they don't.
Call 9-11 and they take 5 hours to get there? Tough.
Plead for a weapon permit because of a psycho "ex" who threatened to kill you and they do kill you? Tough.
There is no legal obligation for them to protect your property - or your life for that matter.
This has been tested at the SCOTUS level MANY times. There's no obligation for the police to protect you and no recourse when they don't.
Call 9-11 and they take 5 hours to get there? Tough.
Plead for a weapon permit because of a psycho "ex" who threatened to kill you and they do kill you? Tough.
Posted by: Tony at August 31, 2005 09:14 PM (dYcZw)
48
"What bastards. Don't they know that those drugs, that they are using to treat themselves and people injured in the hurricane and flood, belong to Walgreens?"
Correct me if I'm wrong but don't the authorities have the right to appropriate goods and services in a declared state of emergency? Excellent sarcasm lauraw but that was a bad example I think.
Correct me if I'm wrong but don't the authorities have the right to appropriate goods and services in a declared state of emergency? Excellent sarcasm lauraw but that was a bad example I think.
Posted by: BrewFan at September 01, 2005 03:51 AM (Byr3j)
49
Tony,
I never meant to imply that they have a legally enforcable obligation to protect property (or even lives). What I merely said that if the the authorities don't protect property in a situation like this, people will be less likely to evacuate for the next natural disaster (knowing that it's unlikely that the authorities can/will protect their possessions in their absense).
In other words, people will understand that they themselves have to protect their possessions. The more people sticking around for this purpose, the higher the death toll next time. It's in all our interest to maintain/restore order asap.
I never meant to imply that they have a legally enforcable obligation to protect property (or even lives). What I merely said that if the the authorities don't protect property in a situation like this, people will be less likely to evacuate for the next natural disaster (knowing that it's unlikely that the authorities can/will protect their possessions in their absense).
In other words, people will understand that they themselves have to protect their possessions. The more people sticking around for this purpose, the higher the death toll next time. It's in all our interest to maintain/restore order asap.
Posted by: Matt at September 01, 2005 04:22 AM (dM/OM)
50
Yes Brewfan.
This is why computer keyboards should require a breathalizer test after a certain point in the evening.
Ya got me.
This is why computer keyboards should require a breathalizer test after a certain point in the evening.
Ya got me.
Posted by: lauraw at September 01, 2005 07:00 AM (or85O)
Posted by: BrewFan at September 01, 2005 07:05 AM (Byr3j)
52
Watch it, Brew. Megan will come after you for stuff like that.
Posted by: Slublog at September 01, 2005 07:07 AM (V7NgR)
53
I will, too. Laura's all mine. :/
Posted by: Megan at September 01, 2005 07:13 AM (s22mC)
Posted by: BrewFan at September 01, 2005 07:38 AM (Byr3j)
55
bbeck, I'm glad you "know" what you'd do. I hope you never have to have your will tested in the real world.
Welp, since I've lived through THREE TYPHOONS (Cats 4 and 5, two direct hits) on an island over a 6-month period and never stole anything from anyone, we'll just ignore part of that and dwell upon your implication: if NO ONE knows what they'll do in a situation without living it, then YOU don't know what YOU'D do either, so arguing over any of this just makes you look like an idiot. Or rather a bigger idiot.
How is the view from up there, BTW?
Why, I'll be glad to tell you. Could you please pull your head out of your azz so I don't have to yell?
And a big thanks to Brewfan for pointing out that yes, police and professionals do have certain extended rights to confiscate goods. That isn't the same as looting.
Furthermore, this looting has gotten out of control. A helicopter that was trying to deliver goods -- like NECESSITIES, which is "okay" to take -- to a hospital couldn't land because of the armed looters who were waiting to strip it.
Whenever any of you would care to change your support of looting for needs, feel free.
Later,
bbeck
Welp, since I've lived through THREE TYPHOONS (Cats 4 and 5, two direct hits) on an island over a 6-month period and never stole anything from anyone, we'll just ignore part of that and dwell upon your implication: if NO ONE knows what they'll do in a situation without living it, then YOU don't know what YOU'D do either, so arguing over any of this just makes you look like an idiot. Or rather a bigger idiot.
How is the view from up there, BTW?
Why, I'll be glad to tell you. Could you please pull your head out of your azz so I don't have to yell?
And a big thanks to Brewfan for pointing out that yes, police and professionals do have certain extended rights to confiscate goods. That isn't the same as looting.
Furthermore, this looting has gotten out of control. A helicopter that was trying to deliver goods -- like NECESSITIES, which is "okay" to take -- to a hospital couldn't land because of the armed looters who were waiting to strip it.
Whenever any of you would care to change your support of looting for needs, feel free.
Later,
bbeck
Posted by: bbeck at September 01, 2005 07:44 AM (qF8q3)
56
Silk:
I noted in my previous post that under extreme circumstances I would undoubtedly also go after those things that would keep me (or my family) alive.
What I am posting about is the thought that, when it's done to survive (no one is starving yet that wasn't starving before the storm), then it's not stealing. That is wrong. It is stealing. I may justify it to myself, to the child who gets fed, etc., but it is still stealing. If it isn't, Lord help us.
I would think that in a court of law, such a circumstance would be taken into account. What I won't brook, though, is the bastard who takes the HDTV, then pleads the same as the mom who took the bread. They both would steal, but the mom could be justified. I can't think of a single case where the HDTV thief would be.
I noted in my previous post that under extreme circumstances I would undoubtedly also go after those things that would keep me (or my family) alive.
What I am posting about is the thought that, when it's done to survive (no one is starving yet that wasn't starving before the storm), then it's not stealing. That is wrong. It is stealing. I may justify it to myself, to the child who gets fed, etc., but it is still stealing. If it isn't, Lord help us.
I would think that in a court of law, such a circumstance would be taken into account. What I won't brook, though, is the bastard who takes the HDTV, then pleads the same as the mom who took the bread. They both would steal, but the mom could be justified. I can't think of a single case where the HDTV thief would be.
Posted by: Carlos at September 01, 2005 08:32 AM (/RF5n)
Posted by: lauraw at September 01, 2005 09:57 AM (pTpit)
58
Not sure if the point's been made above or not, but looting causes law enforcement to turn away from rescuing to "enforcing" the law. So, people are ultimately doing themselves and their neighbors a disservice.
But I don't think obeying the law and being a good citizen matters when you're in crisis and you just saw two bodies float by, and you reason over night that groceries are going to spoil in two days anyway and your stomach's filled with panic. Anxiety and the will to live ain't pretty.
But I don't think obeying the law and being a good citizen matters when you're in crisis and you just saw two bodies float by, and you reason over night that groceries are going to spoil in two days anyway and your stomach's filled with panic. Anxiety and the will to live ain't pretty.
Posted by: ChrisG at September 01, 2005 10:22 AM (nfnmD)
59
Stealing a loaf of bread off a shelf is not the same as armed robbery.
How many people went in and stole just one loaf of bread? I don't think it's unreasonable to assume the answer is Zero. So comparing the two doesn't apply here.
The looting of the grocery stores started before people had time to be starved and before authorities could arrive and control the distribution, which is what people should have done: waited.
Once the looting starts of any commodity, should anyone logically assume that looters would only take food? And now, the looting is out of control...and that's happened only from the looting of non-food items? Hardly. All of the looting contributed to the anarchy we're now seeing, because one rule gets broken, and then another, and another...
That is what happens when people begin to think that the laws stopped applying.
Later,
bbeck
How many people went in and stole just one loaf of bread? I don't think it's unreasonable to assume the answer is Zero. So comparing the two doesn't apply here.
The looting of the grocery stores started before people had time to be starved and before authorities could arrive and control the distribution, which is what people should have done: waited.
Once the looting starts of any commodity, should anyone logically assume that looters would only take food? And now, the looting is out of control...and that's happened only from the looting of non-food items? Hardly. All of the looting contributed to the anarchy we're now seeing, because one rule gets broken, and then another, and another...
That is what happens when people begin to think that the laws stopped applying.
Later,
bbeck
Posted by: bbeck at September 01, 2005 04:28 PM (qF8q3)
60
Oh, I'm with you there.
I'd like to see some dead looter carcasses being dragged before TV cameras, tonight.
One of my customers today, before he went all MOONBAT on me (Oh! you should only witness the day full of fuckin nutbags I've had today!) , said that during the Connecticut flood of '55, the Governor told the cops to shoot looters on sight. There was very little looting.
Stealing bread and foods from a flooded grocery...I still don't see the line, from that vantage point. Especially when mothers are holding babies that will surely be dead tomorrow.
But everything else across that line...shoot to kill.
I'd like to see some dead looter carcasses being dragged before TV cameras, tonight.
One of my customers today, before he went all MOONBAT on me (Oh! you should only witness the day full of fuckin nutbags I've had today!) , said that during the Connecticut flood of '55, the Governor told the cops to shoot looters on sight. There was very little looting.
Stealing bread and foods from a flooded grocery...I still don't see the line, from that vantage point. Especially when mothers are holding babies that will surely be dead tomorrow.
But everything else across that line...shoot to kill.
Posted by: lauraw at September 01, 2005 04:48 PM (M7kiy)
61
Stealing bread and foods from a flooded grocery...I still don't see the line, from that vantage point. Especially when mothers are holding babies that will surely be dead tomorrow.
Well, the only way I could consider looting acceptable is if you're talking about an end-of-the-world scenario where no one was expecting the government to restore order because the gov't is GONE.
And really, any policeman aiming a gun is going to balk at tapping a woman with a baby in one arm -- regardless of what she's carrying in the other.
I'm sorry you had to deal with moonbats. I HATE having to deal with moonbats.
Later,
bbeck
Well, the only way I could consider looting acceptable is if you're talking about an end-of-the-world scenario where no one was expecting the government to restore order because the gov't is GONE.
And really, any policeman aiming a gun is going to balk at tapping a woman with a baby in one arm -- regardless of what she's carrying in the other.
I'm sorry you had to deal with moonbats. I HATE having to deal with moonbats.
Later,
bbeck
Posted by: bbeck at September 01, 2005 06:03 PM (qF8q3)
62
There is a logic that takes place even if you have stocked up, that maybe the disaster is so big it will take days or weeks to fix, and thus you head to the store because you fear if you wait, it will all be gone.
After a 7.6 earthquake in Taiwan, we all went and rushed to buy tents, but even then we made sure the kid who had driven for 2 hours from the worst zone got tents before we did...and our 7-11 network was awesome...pallets of water ready right away...ironically of a brand coming from a town that was flattened.
But I think a serious flood would really freak me out and I could see rushing frantically to the store.
After a 7.6 earthquake in Taiwan, we all went and rushed to buy tents, but even then we made sure the kid who had driven for 2 hours from the worst zone got tents before we did...and our 7-11 network was awesome...pallets of water ready right away...ironically of a brand coming from a town that was flattened.
But I think a serious flood would really freak me out and I could see rushing frantically to the store.
Posted by: Aaron at September 01, 2005 10:58 PM (7BU3N)
63
Tim: You're a fucking nut.
Posted by: at September 03, 2005 01:50 PM (LcweH)
64
Errata: You're a fucking nut and probably a DUmmie.
Posted by: at September 03, 2005 01:51 PM (LcweH)
65
Tim's services will no longer be required on this site.
FWIW, I think he was a DUmmie coming over here to embarass the site.
FWIW, I think he was a DUmmie coming over here to embarass the site.
Posted by: ace at September 03, 2005 02:01 PM (hBAty)
66
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Posted by: Thyra at May 21, 2009 10:39 AM (NNxYx)
67
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Posted by: Glynis at June 01, 2009 01:56 AM (NNxYx)
68
admin tenku
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