March 30, 2006
How The FBI Let 9/11 Happen
— Ace One guy knew Moussaoui was Al Qaeda, intended to hijack a plane, and was trained to do so.
— Ace One guy knew Moussaoui was Al Qaeda, intended to hijack a plane, and was trained to do so.
He briefed his higher-ups in the FBI. Tried to warn the FAA, but was blocked from doing so. Even had a memo that was briefed to CIA director George Tenet.
Posted by: Ace at
01:46 PM
| Comments (70)
Post contains 62 words, total size 1 kb.
1
That asshole Colleen Rowley is trying to build a political career on the fact that she had allowed 9/11 to happen.
Well, not exactly. But you know what I mean.
Well, not exactly. But you know what I mean.
Posted by: Bart at March 30, 2006 01:48 PM (HrjQ0)
2
Somebody please explain to me again about how the proper response to the terr threat should be basically a defensive one based on a law enforcement / intelligence approach.
Because I still don't understand that argument after all these years.
Because I still don't understand that argument after all these years.
Posted by: Carl in N.H. at March 30, 2006 01:59 PM (BK97c)
Posted by: Dave in Texas at March 30, 2006 02:27 PM (U33qp)
4
A large percentage of the people at the top in federal law enforcement are not the good, street smart agents who rise to the top based on the merits of their work. They are more likely the agents that couldn't hack investigative work who move up in order to escape it. I'm saying this as a federal LEO.
Posted by: at March 30, 2006 02:28 PM (mq7A+)
5
In the FBI's defense, assuming this is accurate, they get reports of this kind all the time. What were they supposed to do, ground the planes in case someone used them as missiles?
I'm no Tenent fan and the FBI does have some problems with lefty infiltration, but this isn't neccessarily cause for concern or cries of indignation.
I'm no Tenent fan and the FBI does have some problems with lefty infiltration, but this isn't neccessarily cause for concern or cries of indignation.
Posted by: Canelone at March 30, 2006 02:29 PM (1Vbso)
6
If space aliens destroyed the Hover dam tomorrow with their neutrino hyper-flux disintegrator death ray, some wanker would say they'd been warning of this for the last 5 years and some dusty FBI file would probably contain the guy's warnings and some administrator's "case closed" ruling.
You can't win with this 20/20 hindsight stuff.
You can't win with this 20/20 hindsight stuff.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at March 30, 2006 02:37 PM (WjdPM)
7
This agent didn't have the nickname "Spooky", did he?
Posted by: Dave Munger at March 30, 2006 02:47 PM (hFQx6)
8
Hey, they're trying Massoui for not telling them about 9/11 before it happened. Can they try Rolince for not listening?
Canelone, you crack me up
" ...the FBI does have some problems with lefty infiltration,..."
Yup, we lefties, after having a peace rally and trying to subvert the Bush regime, that's what we do for a day job, work in Law Enforcement. Puleeze, spare me. I think you'll find that LEO are mostly conservative or middle of the roaders. Anyone have any stats?
Besides, we're all afraid of guns and cowards, too.
I suppose it's your viewpoint. Anyone to the left of John Ashcroft is, by definition, a lefty, right?
Canelone, you crack me up
" ...the FBI does have some problems with lefty infiltration,..."
Yup, we lefties, after having a peace rally and trying to subvert the Bush regime, that's what we do for a day job, work in Law Enforcement. Puleeze, spare me. I think you'll find that LEO are mostly conservative or middle of the roaders. Anyone have any stats?
Besides, we're all afraid of guns and cowards, too.
I suppose it's your viewpoint. Anyone to the left of John Ashcroft is, by definition, a lefty, right?
Posted by: Larry the Urbanite at March 30, 2006 02:50 PM (Lpswv)
9
More importantly, when's the next poetry smackdown? I been working on my shit with my new sempai, a real live Pun-jab tribe member. I've been waxing on and off and carrying water at his dojo for six months.
I'm ready to walk the rice paper, baby.
I'm ready to walk the rice paper, baby.
Posted by: rd at March 30, 2006 02:50 PM (lpbk9)
Posted by: at March 30, 2006 02:55 PM (Qki3V)
11
"You can't win with this 20/20 hindsight stuff."
Exactly. The only use of it is to train to do your job better, not to point fingers and attack people. That's just sad.
Exactly. The only use of it is to train to do your job better, not to point fingers and attack people. That's just sad.
Posted by: Canelone at March 30, 2006 03:11 PM (1Vbso)
12
Larry the Larvae, there you go again. Why so much dishonesty, today?
You know perfectly well that due to racial and gender quotas law enforcement agencies have been infiltrated by Lefties. How on earth can you explain the hiring of Coleen Rowley and and Valerie Plame?
FBI and CIA agents, my ass.
Clinton installed his people as department heads and they had eight years to lower the integrity of all the government agencies. Add that to the prior years of all the local, state, and federal hiring of NOT the most qualified in the hiring pool, but most qualified that met the quota.
We've got major league assholes running rampant in the CIA and FBI and State Department and Defense Department. How can you deny all the anti-Bush subterfuge that has been going on since day one of GWB's presidency? Next thing you know you'll be denying that there is a liberal media bias in the MSM.
You know perfectly well that due to racial and gender quotas law enforcement agencies have been infiltrated by Lefties. How on earth can you explain the hiring of Coleen Rowley and and Valerie Plame?
FBI and CIA agents, my ass.
Clinton installed his people as department heads and they had eight years to lower the integrity of all the government agencies. Add that to the prior years of all the local, state, and federal hiring of NOT the most qualified in the hiring pool, but most qualified that met the quota.
We've got major league assholes running rampant in the CIA and FBI and State Department and Defense Department. How can you deny all the anti-Bush subterfuge that has been going on since day one of GWB's presidency? Next thing you know you'll be denying that there is a liberal media bias in the MSM.
Posted by: Bart at March 30, 2006 03:36 PM (hgd2b)
13
You know perfectly well that due to racial and gender quotas law enforcement agencies have been infiltrated by Lefties. How on earth can you explain the hiring of Coleen Rowley and and Valerie Plame?
FBI and CIA agents, my ass.
You are an idiot.
FBI and CIA agents, my ass.
You are an idiot.
Posted by: at March 30, 2006 03:44 PM (jndMe)
14
Bart,
The CIA needs female agents to use as part of "honey traps." I assume that's what Valerie Plame was doing during her covert days.
Once the flower is off the bloom, so to speak, the CIA routinely assigns these honey pots an ex-Ambassador as a husband and shunts them into Clerical at Langley.
Normally this a good way to keep track of all those ex-Ambassadors, but the system broke down with Plame/Wilson, because Plame ended up falling in love with Wilson...
j/k
The CIA needs female agents to use as part of "honey traps." I assume that's what Valerie Plame was doing during her covert days.
Once the flower is off the bloom, so to speak, the CIA routinely assigns these honey pots an ex-Ambassador as a husband and shunts them into Clerical at Langley.
Normally this a good way to keep track of all those ex-Ambassadors, but the system broke down with Plame/Wilson, because Plame ended up falling in love with Wilson...
j/k
Posted by: Aaron at March 30, 2006 03:53 PM (00aoH)
15
Yeah, Aaron, perhaps I was unclear. Sure, the FBI and CIA needs to, and should, hire women as field agents and analysts. But the gender quotas don't allow to pick and choose qualified candidates.
Let's say the CIA must hire 25% women of this year's recruits. Out of 1,000 openings, that would be 250 women. Let's assume that there are 500 women and 2,000 men who apply.
Now, after testing and screening, it is revealed that 900 of the men and 100 of the women scored exceptionally well and are qualified to join the CIA.
But, thanks to the federally mandated quota, we discard 150 out of the 900 men who are qulalified and replace them with 150 of the women who are underqualified.
Let's say the CIA must hire 25% women of this year's recruits. Out of 1,000 openings, that would be 250 women. Let's assume that there are 500 women and 2,000 men who apply.
Now, after testing and screening, it is revealed that 900 of the men and 100 of the women scored exceptionally well and are qualified to join the CIA.
But, thanks to the federally mandated quota, we discard 150 out of the 900 men who are qulalified and replace them with 150 of the women who are underqualified.
Posted by: Bart at March 30, 2006 04:08 PM (hgd2b)
16
Bart displays cunning ignorance thusly:
But, thanks to the federally mandated quota, we discard 150 out of the 900 men who are qulalified and replace them with 150 of the women who are underqualified.
Sibel Edmonds, anyone?
Ah well. I guess at least this post and the comments show that the wingnuts are about one-third of the way to where the rationalists were about 9-11 after a month. And that's PROGRESS, folks.
In case you need more explanation, the ones screaming about actions needing to be taken were the ones there under Clinton. Some were women.
All the cases I know of where the bosses ignored the screams, the bosses were white guys.
So Bart is, again, a fact-free idiot.
But, thanks to the federally mandated quota, we discard 150 out of the 900 men who are qulalified and replace them with 150 of the women who are underqualified.
Sibel Edmonds, anyone?
Ah well. I guess at least this post and the comments show that the wingnuts are about one-third of the way to where the rationalists were about 9-11 after a month. And that's PROGRESS, folks.
In case you need more explanation, the ones screaming about actions needing to be taken were the ones there under Clinton. Some were women.
All the cases I know of where the bosses ignored the screams, the bosses were white guys.
So Bart is, again, a fact-free idiot.
Posted by: at March 30, 2006 04:49 PM (ANynN)
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Larry, if you're going to post, you don't need to try to hide your identity. I know it's you.
Posted by: Bart at March 30, 2006 05:04 PM (hgd2b)
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In the FBI's defense, assuming this is accurate, they get reports of this kind all the time. What were they supposed to do, ground the planes in case someone used them as missiles?
Uh, would it be too much for us taxpayers to expect something like an investigation, maybe?
If space aliens destroyed the Hover dam tomorrow with their neutrino hyper-flux disintegrator death ray, some wanker would say they'd been warning of this for the last 5 years...
Samit's material was hardly that of a "wanker." He discovered and conscientiously reported evidence of a serious threat. Had his managers done the jobs we paid them to do, 3000 murdered Americans might well be alive today.
"You can't win with this 20/20 hindsight stuff."
Exactly. The only use of it is to train to do your job better, not to point fingers and attack people. That's just sad.
I don't regard criticism of incompetent, self-serving
beauraucrats as "sad" at all. What's sad is that these shitbags might have prevented 9/11, but they chose not to do the jobs we paid them to do.
IT'S BUSH'S FAULT!
In a sense, yes, it is Bush's fault.
You people have seriously lost your way.
Uh, would it be too much for us taxpayers to expect something like an investigation, maybe?
If space aliens destroyed the Hover dam tomorrow with their neutrino hyper-flux disintegrator death ray, some wanker would say they'd been warning of this for the last 5 years...
Samit's material was hardly that of a "wanker." He discovered and conscientiously reported evidence of a serious threat. Had his managers done the jobs we paid them to do, 3000 murdered Americans might well be alive today.
"You can't win with this 20/20 hindsight stuff."
Exactly. The only use of it is to train to do your job better, not to point fingers and attack people. That's just sad.
I don't regard criticism of incompetent, self-serving
beauraucrats as "sad" at all. What's sad is that these shitbags might have prevented 9/11, but they chose not to do the jobs we paid them to do.
IT'S BUSH'S FAULT!
In a sense, yes, it is Bush's fault.
You people have seriously lost your way.
Posted by: Brett Bullington at March 30, 2006 05:04 PM (/QYGF)
19
"Uh, would it be too much for us taxpayers to expect something like an investigation, maybe?"
There's not enough money on earth and not enough manpower in the country to do an investigation on every single report, story, lead, and bit of information they get. My point isn't to ignore threats and not investigate credible problems. It's that nothing is gained by this kind of hindsight because of the volume of data they gather.
Sitting at home at your computer, it's easy to look back and say 'of course, it's so obvious!!!!' but that's simply not how life works 99 times out of 100.
There's not enough money on earth and not enough manpower in the country to do an investigation on every single report, story, lead, and bit of information they get. My point isn't to ignore threats and not investigate credible problems. It's that nothing is gained by this kind of hindsight because of the volume of data they gather.
Sitting at home at your computer, it's easy to look back and say 'of course, it's so obvious!!!!' but that's simply not how life works 99 times out of 100.
Posted by: Canelone at March 30, 2006 05:08 PM (1Vbso)
20
Am i misunderstanding Larry, or is he really claiming that a true blue lefty would never pursue a career in law enforcement?
Wow. now the lefties are indicting themselves.
Wow. now the lefties are indicting themselves.
Posted by: Matt at March 30, 2006 05:11 PM (3bFaP)
21
My point isn't to ignore threats and not investigate credible problems.
That's precisely your point.
That's precisely your point.
Posted by: Brett Bullington at March 30, 2006 05:20 PM (/QYGF)
22
Looks like someone actually bought and read Richard Clarke's book.
Posted by: Bart at March 30, 2006 05:23 PM (hgd2b)
23
You guys are determined to sneer at any suggestion that 9/11 might have been prevented, but if three different agents were independently warning that Arab terrorists were planning a hijacking and were ignored, didn't someone fuck up in a big way?
Posted by: Curt at March 30, 2006 06:04 PM (NuGC3)
24
You guys are determined to sneer at any suggestion that 9/11 might have been prevented, but if three different agents were independently warning that Arab terrorists were planning a hijacking and were ignored, didn't someone fuck up in a big way?
And that's even if manage to completely FORGET that it was NOT just the FBI making warnings.
Does ANYONE here recall the Aug. 6 PDB? Osama bin Laden determined to attack in US
With hijacked planes. While the FBI agents said, we have leads on guys who want to hijack planes to fly into the WTC. (okay only one said WTC)
Intelligence failure my ASS. Leadership failure is what it was. All Bush had to do was meet with the heads of CIA and FBI, and insist that they shake the trees on any correspondence, and get the word all the way down to agents, then back up to him the next week.
Aug. 6 to Sept. 11.
Bush went on vacation instead.
And that's even if manage to completely FORGET that it was NOT just the FBI making warnings.
Does ANYONE here recall the Aug. 6 PDB? Osama bin Laden determined to attack in US
With hijacked planes. While the FBI agents said, we have leads on guys who want to hijack planes to fly into the WTC. (okay only one said WTC)
Intelligence failure my ASS. Leadership failure is what it was. All Bush had to do was meet with the heads of CIA and FBI, and insist that they shake the trees on any correspondence, and get the word all the way down to agents, then back up to him the next week.
Aug. 6 to Sept. 11.
Bush went on vacation instead.
Posted by: at March 30, 2006 06:14 PM (ANynN)
25
Will someone tell me why the fuck I should care about what some stupid moron who can't even take the time to think of a fucking fake name thinks?
Fuck off, anonymous shithead.
Fuck off, anonymous shithead.
Posted by: Look! I'm Anonymous! at March 30, 2006 06:16 PM (aGpO3)
26
Sure 9/11 could have been prevented. We should have never allowed Al Quaeda into our country and taught them how to fly 737s and 757s.
Remember when INS issued visas for some of the hijackers, posthumously? (Wasn't that a laugh-riot?) Every single employee at INS should be fired. That's a good place to start. 9/11 was the biggest story for several months. Surely the imbeciles at INS heard of the nineteen hijackers. Yet they continued to process their visas. What a joke.
Remember when INS issued visas for some of the hijackers, posthumously? (Wasn't that a laugh-riot?) Every single employee at INS should be fired. That's a good place to start. 9/11 was the biggest story for several months. Surely the imbeciles at INS heard of the nineteen hijackers. Yet they continued to process their visas. What a joke.
Posted by: Bart at March 30, 2006 06:16 PM (/AQnZ)
27
Whoops, meant to bold this:
Osama bin Laden determined to attack in US
And meant to mention that Clinton DID meet with FBI and CIA heads, to do as Bush should have done.
9-11 HAPPENED BECAUSE OF A FAILURE OF LEADERSHIP
Osama bin Laden determined to attack in US
And meant to mention that Clinton DID meet with FBI and CIA heads, to do as Bush should have done.
9-11 HAPPENED BECAUSE OF A FAILURE OF LEADERSHIP
Posted by: at March 30, 2006 06:17 PM (ANynN)
28
Bush went on vacation instead.
It must be so nice not to do all that pesky thinking. Just repeat what Kos and Michael Moore tell you, and it doesn't hurt your brain so much.
I would like to formally request a flame war against these imbeciles.
It must be so nice not to do all that pesky thinking. Just repeat what Kos and Michael Moore tell you, and it doesn't hurt your brain so much.
I would like to formally request a flame war against these imbeciles.
Posted by: Slublog at March 30, 2006 06:19 PM (aGpO3)
29
Will someone tell me why the fuck I should care about what some stupid moron who can't even take the time to think of a fucking fake name thinks?
Ever see something written that was worth reading, even if you didn't know who wrote it?
Ever think that maybe an idea, a truth you recognize, doesn't need a name behind it?
Ever read a comment that you couldn't refute, so you looked for some personal attack you could launch instead?
Ever notice that you ALREADY care about an anonymous message enough to respond?
Got you good, didn't it.
Ever see something written that was worth reading, even if you didn't know who wrote it?
Ever think that maybe an idea, a truth you recognize, doesn't need a name behind it?
Ever read a comment that you couldn't refute, so you looked for some personal attack you could launch instead?
Ever notice that you ALREADY care about an anonymous message enough to respond?
Got you good, didn't it.
Posted by: at March 30, 2006 06:20 PM (ANynN)
30
It must be so nice not to do all that pesky thinking. Just repeat what Kos and Michael Moore tell you, and it doesn't hurt your brain so much.
Ever notice that there was a PDB on Aug. 6 warning about an attack, and Bush went on vacation?
You did?
What did you think about that?
Let's hear your real response, even if it makes your brain hurt.
What did you think?
Ever notice that there was a PDB on Aug. 6 warning about an attack, and Bush went on vacation?
You did?
What did you think about that?
Let's hear your real response, even if it makes your brain hurt.
What did you think?
Posted by: at March 30, 2006 06:23 PM (ANynN)
31
Ever see something written that was worth reading, even if you didn't know who wrote it?
No, usually if something is worth reading, someone is usually willing to at least attach an email address to their writing.
You're not. And it's not that we can't refute what you say. In fact, we find it amusing that you think you're being original, when in fact you're only about the 700 billionth stupid fucking liberal to repeat the same tired bullshit on this site.
Fuck off, little man. Or at least develop some original thoughts and stop cribbing from your heroes.
No, usually if something is worth reading, someone is usually willing to at least attach an email address to their writing.
You're not. And it's not that we can't refute what you say. In fact, we find it amusing that you think you're being original, when in fact you're only about the 700 billionth stupid fucking liberal to repeat the same tired bullshit on this site.
Fuck off, little man. Or at least develop some original thoughts and stop cribbing from your heroes.
Posted by: Look! I'm Anonymous at March 30, 2006 06:24 PM (aGpO3)
32
Oh goody, more castrato trolls endlessly regurgitating bullshit from Michael Moore's works of fiction. Just what we needed around here.
Posted by: truly gutless at March 30, 2006 06:28 PM (/0Qyy)
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Mike, it's obvious you're trolling again.
What? Couldn't think of another fake name?
Fucking loser.
What? Couldn't think of another fake name?
Fucking loser.
Posted by: M1ke at March 30, 2006 06:29 PM (aGpO3)
34
I can understand ignoring one or even two of these items but when you have a pattern and no one can get ahold of it? These people are supposed to be professionals. Unfortunately under the Clinton administration yterrorists weren't Arabs, they were folks who protested at aborption clinics and used fire bombs and such.
The higher one gets the less not more talent and ability is evident. People who rise in the federal government seem to skilled as con men and yes men rather than people who can get things done.
One last thing. Having watched what Clinton did to the FBI I can only wish for the return of a Hoover type. I am sickj and tired of federal agencies being used for social experiments, to use for political puirposes, and becomming a bad joke.
The higher one gets the less not more talent and ability is evident. People who rise in the federal government seem to skilled as con men and yes men rather than people who can get things done.
One last thing. Having watched what Clinton did to the FBI I can only wish for the return of a Hoover type. I am sickj and tired of federal agencies being used for social experiments, to use for political puirposes, and becomming a bad joke.
Posted by: Thomas J. Jackson at March 30, 2006 06:29 PM (A7X8u)
35
Ever see something written that was worth reading, even if you didn't know who wrote it?
What makes you think your talking points are worth reading anyway, Josie?
What makes you think your talking points are worth reading anyway, Josie?
Posted by: Anon E. Mouse at March 30, 2006 06:30 PM (/0Qyy)
Posted by: eggmcmuffin at March 30, 2006 06:40 PM (Gg73E)
37
Yes, anonymous...what are your five favorite movies, books, television shows, songs and pornographic magazines?
Posted by: ergishilarious at March 30, 2006 06:44 PM (aGpO3)
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You're not the real eggmcmuffin. You use capital letters!
Posted by: truly gutless at March 30, 2006 06:44 PM (/0Qyy)
Posted by: Dave in Texas at March 30, 2006 07:04 PM (U33qp)
Posted by: eggmcmuffin at March 30, 2006 07:09 PM (Gg73E)
41
We need to stop pointing fingers, stop laying blame, and start paying more attention to preventing current and future potential terrorist threats.
In my opinion, 9/11 could not have prevented. Even if the government knew everything about it (I am not convinced the government had enough information about this specific threat to even have done anything), the actions they would have had to take would not have been accepted by the American people. We were too naive and felt too secure then.
In my opinion, 9/11 could not have prevented. Even if the government knew everything about it (I am not convinced the government had enough information about this specific threat to even have done anything), the actions they would have had to take would not have been accepted by the American people. We were too naive and felt too secure then.
Posted by: Muslihoon at March 30, 2006 07:33 PM (Q8UK2)
42
It's amazing the crap you find on the net.
Here's a website for the Filet-O-Fish. The game is kinda fun. I got up to 7.8 seconds. Which is pretty bad, I reckon.
Linky
Here's a website for the Filet-O-Fish. The game is kinda fun. I got up to 7.8 seconds. Which is pretty bad, I reckon.
Linky
Posted by: filet-o-fish at March 30, 2006 07:34 PM (Gg73E)
43
Oliver? Oliver Willis, is that you?
Posted by: Anon E. Mouse at March 30, 2006 07:54 PM (/0Qyy)
44
From what I can tell the CIA and its operatives have no problem lying to the public. I doubt that many people who have worked with operators from the agency would disagree.
Mike is still a moron. Why bother posting as anon, everyone knows its you.
Mike is still a moron. Why bother posting as anon, everyone knows its you.
Posted by: Mike Superior at March 30, 2006 07:59 PM (K8G/M)
45
That Filet-o-fish game is something else. I got 16 seconds!
Posted by: truly gutless at March 30, 2006 08:10 PM (/0Qyy)
46
The thing that confuses me here is why people think that the FBI is not innundated with calls and warnings and information and cranks telling them that their dog told them God was going to use the space needle to punish gays and so forth. They have to wade through this crap and try to do the best they can to find what's real and what's not.
As far as any of us know, they were investigating this, as best they could given the limited resources the FBI has. Sitting today 5 years afterward you can look back and say "dude, look what happened, you should have known better" but on September 10th you would have called me a nutcase if I said all that was about to happen.
As far as any of us know, they were investigating this, as best they could given the limited resources the FBI has. Sitting today 5 years afterward you can look back and say "dude, look what happened, you should have known better" but on September 10th you would have called me a nutcase if I said all that was about to happen.
Posted by: Christopher Taylor at March 30, 2006 08:13 PM (1Vbso)
47
Try Level 2, tg. The sharks are Hammerheads and they whip their tails around. The code is 123Filet.
Posted by: Bart at March 30, 2006 08:18 PM (Gg73E)
48
It must be so nice not to do all that pesky thinking. Just repeat what Kos and Michael Moore tell you, and it doesn't hurt your brain so much.
Ever notice that there was a PDB on Aug. 6 warning about an attack, and Bush went on vacation?
Gee, Slublog, it must be nice when Josie makes your point for you. Easy like a Sunday morning.
Ever notice that there was a PDB on Aug. 6 warning about an attack, and Bush went on vacation?
Gee, Slublog, it must be nice when Josie makes your point for you. Easy like a Sunday morning.
Posted by: Sean M. at March 30, 2006 09:07 PM (dc5zY)
49
Bureaucracies tend to be incompetent. Why wasn't Tenet fired on Sept. 12 I don't know why...
But this "blame Bush" stuff is just unserious. For example, i could with 20/20 hindsight argue that Clinton, using his vast resevoir of international goodwill, could have organized an invasion of Afghanistan in 1998 and pre-empted all of this stuff...or Bush could have done it in 2000.
But, as Muslihoon says, I don't think the US population would have gone for it. In fact, speculating here, that those bitching the most about Osama, would be those screaming about Unocal or US imperialism.
So I don't bitch too much about Clinton on that.
But this "blame Bush" stuff is just unserious. For example, i could with 20/20 hindsight argue that Clinton, using his vast resevoir of international goodwill, could have organized an invasion of Afghanistan in 1998 and pre-empted all of this stuff...or Bush could have done it in 2000.
But, as Muslihoon says, I don't think the US population would have gone for it. In fact, speculating here, that those bitching the most about Osama, would be those screaming about Unocal or US imperialism.
So I don't bitch too much about Clinton on that.
Posted by: Aaron at March 30, 2006 09:37 PM (00aoH)
50
"That asshole Colleen Rowley is trying to build a political career on the fact that she had allowed 9/11 to happen.
Well, not exactly. But you know what I mean." - Bart
I have seen Condi Rice mentioned here as a potential Presidential candidate. The woman who has no idea what she did with that "Bin Laden determined to attack inside the US" memo because she didn't consider it important less than a year after the Cole bombing.
Well, not exactly. But you know what I mean." - Bart
I have seen Condi Rice mentioned here as a potential Presidential candidate. The woman who has no idea what she did with that "Bin Laden determined to attack inside the US" memo because she didn't consider it important less than a year after the Cole bombing.
Posted by: Craig Stepford at March 30, 2006 11:10 PM (aOeXm)
51
Cripes, did you people get a memo or something? And what exactly do you hope to accomplish?
Posted by: Slublog at March 31, 2006 03:52 AM (aGpO3)
52
ace, have you read "1000 Years for Revenge?" it's an awesome book that outlines all the fuckups of the fbi re: 9/11. must read.
Posted by: anna at March 31, 2006 03:56 AM (qODvs)
53
What good is a memo that says "Bin Laden determined to attack inside the US"? Where? When? The lack of specificity in the PDB made specific action impossible to recommend. Who cares if you have a meeting? This sort of memo makes a meeting irrelevant. The only thing the agency heads can do is devote some resources to it and hope they get him. This is not actionable intelligence.
Posted by: EricTheRed21 at March 31, 2006 04:30 AM (VoWoj)
54
All of those tired troll memes have been addressed and squashed years ago. Why they are trying to revive them again is a mystery. Next they are going to post that Bush stated Iraq was an imminent threat and Iraq purchased yellowcake. War for oil ! Afghan winter! Impossible to hold Iraq elections! Florida was stolen! Ohio was stolen! Worst economy since Hoover! blah blah blah.
Posted by: roc ingersol at March 31, 2006 05:10 AM (m2CN7)
55
Lost in all this Blame Bush crap is the alternative. Do you really think Al Gore would have seized on those PDB's and magically stopped the attacks? Who built this freaking wall, anyway? Thise guys had their shot and completely dropped the ball.
And what about Battlin' John Kerry? You think that dweeb puts the fear of death into the scumbags?
Maybe Bush bobbled, maybe not, but I'll take my chances with the guy who's determined to bust some ass right now. Fuck a bunch of hindsight from supporters of Douchebaggy donks.
And what about Battlin' John Kerry? You think that dweeb puts the fear of death into the scumbags?
Maybe Bush bobbled, maybe not, but I'll take my chances with the guy who's determined to bust some ass right now. Fuck a bunch of hindsight from supporters of Douchebaggy donks.
Posted by: spongeworthy at March 31, 2006 05:20 AM (uSomN)
56
Bin Laden announced rather openly he wanted to attack the US back in 1992, what exactly is news about a new memo saying the same thing, I want to know. But really it comes down to this:
"All of those tired troll memes have been addressed and squashed years ago. "
And it's true. All they do is recycle the same discredited, repudiated nonsense over and over and over as if saying the same thing louder and louder somehow makes it true. One gets the impression they aren't saying it so much to convince others as themselves.
"All of those tired troll memes have been addressed and squashed years ago. "
And it's true. All they do is recycle the same discredited, repudiated nonsense over and over and over as if saying the same thing louder and louder somehow makes it true. One gets the impression they aren't saying it so much to convince others as themselves.
Posted by: Canelone at March 31, 2006 05:59 AM (1Vbso)
57
Sorry for the cross-post.... but I just want to pass along some words of respect. Oh, and I got into it with some folks a couple months back over what I thought were racists comments. I'll apologize for that right now. I'm see a lot of racism where I live... and I try to make a point to call people out when I see it. I'm sorry for treating you unjustly.
------------------------
I know folks don't really care about me on here. But there are a few that I admire and respect. I've a big project coming up... so I will be away for a few months.
But, thanks for the good game, Otho. Left and right, I'm sick of talking to unthinking fascist idiots... so I am happy to meet someone who actually reads and thinks. And everyone else, listen to him, he's smart.
And Canelone, underneath your al dente exterior, is soft white cheese.... just like the rest of us. How you remind me of your cousin, Manicotti! You sometimes make silly assumptions about who you think you're arguing with... but for the most part... you are a righteous person (really, anyone who cares about the unborn as much as you do has a big advantage in my book). Thanks for the conversation.
Finally, Ace. Thanks for making me laugh... and for being fair. Y'all are way cooler than those lead-painting eating hateful geeks at the free republic.... they write like Rush Limbaugh in the final stages of carbon monoxide poisoning. Bad news.
------------------------
I know folks don't really care about me on here. But there are a few that I admire and respect. I've a big project coming up... so I will be away for a few months.
But, thanks for the good game, Otho. Left and right, I'm sick of talking to unthinking fascist idiots... so I am happy to meet someone who actually reads and thinks. And everyone else, listen to him, he's smart.
And Canelone, underneath your al dente exterior, is soft white cheese.... just like the rest of us. How you remind me of your cousin, Manicotti! You sometimes make silly assumptions about who you think you're arguing with... but for the most part... you are a righteous person (really, anyone who cares about the unborn as much as you do has a big advantage in my book). Thanks for the conversation.
Finally, Ace. Thanks for making me laugh... and for being fair. Y'all are way cooler than those lead-painting eating hateful geeks at the free republic.... they write like Rush Limbaugh in the final stages of carbon monoxide poisoning. Bad news.
Posted by: BigTobacco at March 31, 2006 06:50 AM (1WdUw)
Posted by: BigPharma at March 31, 2006 08:53 AM (KuIHu)
59
Do you really think Al Gore would have seized on those PDB's and magically stopped the attacks?
The guy can't even seize on sanity most of the time let alone PDB's, PCP's, DDT's...whatever.
The guy can't even seize on sanity most of the time let alone PDB's, PCP's, DDT's...whatever.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at March 31, 2006 02:07 PM (WjdPM)
60
And it's true. All they do is recycle the same discredited, repudiated nonsense over and over and over as if saying the same thing louder and louder somehow makes it true. One gets the impression they aren't saying it so much to convince others as themselves.
Posted by: Canelone on March 31, 2006 10:59 AM
Can you refer me to a link which exposes Rice for lying under oath about receiving this memo, that was what it was called, that she doesn't know what she did with it or that September 2001 is less than a year after October 2000?
If not, that leaves you as the only thing discredited here.
Posted by: Canelone on March 31, 2006 10:59 AM
Can you refer me to a link which exposes Rice for lying under oath about receiving this memo, that was what it was called, that she doesn't know what she did with it or that September 2001 is less than a year after October 2000?
If not, that leaves you as the only thing discredited here.
Posted by: at March 31, 2006 04:28 PM (aOeXm)
61
That made even less sense than you normally do, anonymike.
Posted by: at March 31, 2006 08:35 PM (1Vbso)
62
The comments in this thread appear to have devolved the way they usually do.
A couple of goofy trolls provoke argument. Other commenters then comment on the trolls rather than addressing the substance of the post.
Clearly, many of you are so over-identified with the Republican party that you can't admit to yourselves that 9/11 was a catastrophic failure of our government.
Our government, which right now is a Republican government, failed in its fundamental responsibility to protect American citizens from attack. That's a fact. The fact doesn't change into something else just because we don't like it. It's still a fact.
The post we're supposedly discussing here points to clear and convincing evidence that the reason for this catastrophic failure of our Republican government is simple bureaucratic incompetence.
Taylor asserts that 9/11 could have been prevented. He doesn't claim, as some of you do, that preventing 9/11 would have required some sort of miraculous, super-human feat of prescience. No, he claims that 9/11 might have been prevented if Samit's managers had simply done their jobs. He presents substantial evidence to support that claim.
But we don't want to look seriously at the evidence, do we? We don't want to "play the blame game" or "point fingers" or use "20/20 hindsight," do we?
If I look at the evidence and express my dissatisfaction with the FBI's performance, then I'm just being irrational, aren't I?
I'd sleep better at night if I believed 9/11, like an act of God, couldn't have been prevented. Then I could tell myself that I have a functioning government protecting my country from external threats.
That would make me feel much better.
But convincing myself of that wouldn't make it true.
Can you say "cognitive dissonance," boys and girls?
A couple of goofy trolls provoke argument. Other commenters then comment on the trolls rather than addressing the substance of the post.
Clearly, many of you are so over-identified with the Republican party that you can't admit to yourselves that 9/11 was a catastrophic failure of our government.
Our government, which right now is a Republican government, failed in its fundamental responsibility to protect American citizens from attack. That's a fact. The fact doesn't change into something else just because we don't like it. It's still a fact.
The post we're supposedly discussing here points to clear and convincing evidence that the reason for this catastrophic failure of our Republican government is simple bureaucratic incompetence.
Taylor asserts that 9/11 could have been prevented. He doesn't claim, as some of you do, that preventing 9/11 would have required some sort of miraculous, super-human feat of prescience. No, he claims that 9/11 might have been prevented if Samit's managers had simply done their jobs. He presents substantial evidence to support that claim.
But we don't want to look seriously at the evidence, do we? We don't want to "play the blame game" or "point fingers" or use "20/20 hindsight," do we?
If I look at the evidence and express my dissatisfaction with the FBI's performance, then I'm just being irrational, aren't I?
I'd sleep better at night if I believed 9/11, like an act of God, couldn't have been prevented. Then I could tell myself that I have a functioning government protecting my country from external threats.
That would make me feel much better.
But convincing myself of that wouldn't make it true.
Can you say "cognitive dissonance," boys and girls?
Posted by: Brett Bullington at April 01, 2006 03:48 AM (/QYGF)
63
Indeed it could have been prevented. So could have every train wreck that's happened, so could the Hindenberg, so could have Pearl Harbor for that matter. The only question is if it is reasonable for it to have been prevented, or plausible. In other words, was the data strong enough and sufficient to take action on? Was the information worth following up, or was it yet another to put on the crank file?
I'm all for investigating this to see if it was a lapse, and for the people responsible to be dealt with. I think everyone here is. I'm just not willing to make the baseless assumption that it was a lapse of reasonable judgement. In other words: until I get more and better information, I'll take the position of defense of law enforcement.
I'm all for investigating this to see if it was a lapse, and for the people responsible to be dealt with. I think everyone here is. I'm just not willing to make the baseless assumption that it was a lapse of reasonable judgement. In other words: until I get more and better information, I'll take the position of defense of law enforcement.
Posted by: Canelone at April 01, 2006 06:37 AM (1Vbso)
64
You're making my argument for me, Canelone.
Taylor's article is about FBI agent Samit pounding the desks of his superiors in an attempt to get them to look at his evidence.
It isn't about something for the "crank file," it's about an FBI agent trying to do his job.
It isn't about "baseless assumptions," it's about drawing reasonable inferences from intelligence data.
Do you think Samit's testimony was untruthful? Perhaps it was--I don't know. If you have reason to doubt his veracity, I'd like to know what your reasons are.
Taylor's article is about FBI agent Samit pounding the desks of his superiors in an attempt to get them to look at his evidence.
It isn't about something for the "crank file," it's about an FBI agent trying to do his job.
It isn't about "baseless assumptions," it's about drawing reasonable inferences from intelligence data.
Do you think Samit's testimony was untruthful? Perhaps it was--I don't know. If you have reason to doubt his veracity, I'd like to know what your reasons are.
Posted by: Brett Bullington at April 01, 2006 07:31 AM (/QYGF)
65
Brett, while this man claims he was pounding desks trying to get attention, we don't know if that's true or not. We don't know what the real story is - there are an awful lot of people after an event like that who suddenly are born again tough guys and try to cash in on it.
Maybe it's true, maybe it's not. It wouldn't surprise me too much given what happened to the FBI in the 90's, but without more information... I suggest caution and siding with law enforcement who has enough enemies to start with. Don't you think?
Maybe it's true, maybe it's not. It wouldn't surprise me too much given what happened to the FBI in the 90's, but without more information... I suggest caution and siding with law enforcement who has enough enemies to start with. Don't you think?
Posted by: Canelone at April 01, 2006 08:03 AM (1Vbso)
66
The FBI needs fixed, it has been a screw up since Bush 1 was in office and probably was before then.
Lesssons that should have been learned at Ruby Ridge were not. This lead to the disaster at Waco. More lessons to be learned there but they were not. And the democrats circled the wagons on the FBI to protect Clinton at that time. The same way the republicans are circling the wagon around the FBI to protect Bush now.
Waco led to the OKC building bombing. The execution of McVeigh was delayed because documents were misplaced and data not transferred. another lesson to be learned that was not. Data transfer and information sharing problems led to information on th 9-11 attacks being missed.
The FBI still has a broken knowledge handling system do a google search on "FBI computer upgrade' to get an idea how screwed up FBI information handling is.
The FBI needs to be fixed. The political butt covering that both parties have engaged in when FBI problems are revealed has delayed the fix and allowed a dysfunctional FBI culture to resist improvement.
Lesssons that should have been learned at Ruby Ridge were not. This lead to the disaster at Waco. More lessons to be learned there but they were not. And the democrats circled the wagons on the FBI to protect Clinton at that time. The same way the republicans are circling the wagon around the FBI to protect Bush now.
Waco led to the OKC building bombing. The execution of McVeigh was delayed because documents were misplaced and data not transferred. another lesson to be learned that was not. Data transfer and information sharing problems led to information on th 9-11 attacks being missed.
The FBI still has a broken knowledge handling system do a google search on "FBI computer upgrade' to get an idea how screwed up FBI information handling is.
The FBI needs to be fixed. The political butt covering that both parties have engaged in when FBI problems are revealed has delayed the fix and allowed a dysfunctional FBI culture to resist improvement.
Posted by: TJIT at April 01, 2006 12:38 PM (jtMVo)
67
Excerpts from articles on the failed FBI computer upgrade.
From LA Times
"WASHINGTON - The FBI and its contractors spent more than $17 million on first-class airfare, inflated labor rates, missing equipment and other questionable payments during the botched attempt to upgrade the bureau's outdated computer system, according to a congressional audit.
An upgrade of its creaky computer network has been on the bureau's most-wanted list since before the Sept. 11 attacks, but the process has been rife with cost overruns and mismanagement. A year ago, the bureau scrapped its first attempted upgrade, called the Virtual Case File, which cost about $170 million. "
From Wash Post
"The findings by the Government Accountability Office expand the controversy surrounding the FBI's Trilogy program, which cost more than $535 million but failed to produce a usable case-management system.
The FBI announced this week that it would spend an additional $425 million in an attempt to finish the job."
---------------------------------------------------------
A private company would not put up with this incompetence why should the US taxpayer?
From LA Times
"WASHINGTON - The FBI and its contractors spent more than $17 million on first-class airfare, inflated labor rates, missing equipment and other questionable payments during the botched attempt to upgrade the bureau's outdated computer system, according to a congressional audit.
An upgrade of its creaky computer network has been on the bureau's most-wanted list since before the Sept. 11 attacks, but the process has been rife with cost overruns and mismanagement. A year ago, the bureau scrapped its first attempted upgrade, called the Virtual Case File, which cost about $170 million. "
From Wash Post
"The findings by the Government Accountability Office expand the controversy surrounding the FBI's Trilogy program, which cost more than $535 million but failed to produce a usable case-management system.
The FBI announced this week that it would spend an additional $425 million in an attempt to finish the job."
---------------------------------------------------------
A private company would not put up with this incompetence why should the US taxpayer?
Posted by: TJIT at April 01, 2006 12:48 PM (jtMVo)
68
WASHINGTON - The FBI and its contractors spent more than $17 million on first-class airfare, inflated labor rates, missing equipment and other questionable payments during the botched attempt to upgrade the bureau's outdated computer system, according to a congressional audit.
Ha. Pikers. A state agency here in Maine wasted much more money than that.
Seriously, though, I think the FBI and a lot of other government agencies tasked with protecting us are broken, and Congress has abdicated its oversight responsibility in allowing the brokenness to continue for so long.
However, I do not believe that bolding the words catastrophic failure of our Republican government makes them more true than just having them in normal text.
Ha. Pikers. A state agency here in Maine wasted much more money than that.
Seriously, though, I think the FBI and a lot of other government agencies tasked with protecting us are broken, and Congress has abdicated its oversight responsibility in allowing the brokenness to continue for so long.
However, I do not believe that bolding the words catastrophic failure of our Republican government makes them more true than just having them in normal text.
Posted by: Slublog at April 01, 2006 12:56 PM (aGpO3)
69
"The FBI needs fixed, it has been a screw up since Bush 1 was in office and probably was before then."
Most likely so, and I'm all for better manpower, policy, and equipment for the FBI. I just don't buy this is an example of things being messed up.
Most likely so, and I'm all for better manpower, policy, and equipment for the FBI. I just don't buy this is an example of things being messed up.
Posted by: Canelone at April 01, 2006 03:32 PM (1Vbso)
70
If the avian flu began transmistting between people tomorrow, some people would say "told you so" and others would say we could never know it was coming for sure. But, we would be prepared for the idea (if not for dealing with the consequences).
Point is while most people were completely taken aback by 9/11, the government had clues. Not that they should have prevented it, but that they should have recognized it the second it began. Should have been prepared to scramble jet fighters to investigate and possibly deal with the problem. At least. Someone please try to fly a Boeing jet into the pentagon and lets see how close you get.
Point is while most people were completely taken aback by 9/11, the government had clues. Not that they should have prevented it, but that they should have recognized it the second it began. Should have been prepared to scramble jet fighters to investigate and possibly deal with the problem. At least. Someone please try to fly a Boeing jet into the pentagon and lets see how close you get.
Posted by: jakeonfire at April 03, 2006 11:05 AM (lLZAm)
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