1 "When contrasted to actual torture, waterboarding is more like foreplay. No thumbscrew, no pincers, no electrodes, no rack. Can one say this of those who have been captured by the tormentors and murderers of (say) Daniel Pearl? On this analysis, any call to indict the United States for torture is therefore a lame and diseased attempt to arrive at a moral equivalence between those who defend civilization and those who exploit its freedoms to hollow it out, and ultimately to bring it down. I myself do not trust anybody who does not clearly understand this viewpoint."

2

yeah... speaking of the old AMA, what happens when someone (some moron, maybe,) gets waterboarded and says, "actually, you know, it was really upsetting and scary, downright terrifying, actually, but not torture."

The response, I'm sure, would be along the lines of "well, you're just saying that to grind a political axe, you went into this project with preconceived notions and a distinct political agenda, etc., etc...."

To which the counter-response should be, "Yeah, true. But then, so did Hitch."

ALTHOUGH, I have to say that I have a great deal of respect for Hitch in general, although we disagree on many things. I have a hard time believing he went into the exercise with a wholly cynical mindset... I'm willing to credit him with good faith when he states he really does think it's torture; I think he's earned that much.

I happen to disagree, though, even though I've never been waterboarded... what this really brings into focus is the bankruptcy of the whole chickenhawk / torturehawk / foohawk / barhawk moral authority idea. For both sides.

3 fat British p*ssy

4 I'm truly disappointed in this. I expected a far more scientific approach from Hitchens. He should know that he can't proclaim waterboarding torture just because he underwent the procedure, without undergoing some fingernail extraction or hot irons to the soles of his feet as a basis for comparison. What a fraud.

5 Well boo fucking hoo. I could not care less about our interrogation methods of radical terrorists. If it saves just one American life, it's worth it.

6 I think the problem is that no one in this country knows pain and torture.  I mean people here freak out when they get a paper cut.  So of course to them waterboarding is torture.  Just like a McDonald's burger would be a world class steak to someone who's never had beef before.

I'd like to see an article that compares waterboarding to other methods of torture.  Let's see a reporter compare and contrast waterboarding and having one's fingernails ripped out.

Then, let him tell us what constitutes torture.

7 ...and I totally ripped off Dreagon's point.

8

Sorry, it's not torture.  Hitchens knew he wasn't going to be killed.  Members of our own military have been subjected to waterboarding to get some idea of what they might have to withstand if captured.

Now to KSM, it probably seemed like torture.  Because he couldn't be sure where we would stop.  So he spilled everything he knew.  We stopped some planned attacks and rolled up a lot of his people.  Yes, it's a lousy job.  To the guys who did it, thank you.  There are Americans alive today because of what you did.   KSM had a bad day?  Well, I'm sure he'll get his just reward in the afterlife.  May it be soon.  Sept 11 would be appropriate.

 

9

I think some of you didn't read the whole article. Hitchens was (relatively)  fair and balanced. He presents both sides of the argument, although I disagree with his conclusion.

Maybe waterboarding IS torture. Fine, let's torture those fuckers anyway.

10 I've always been a bit confused about people's weird attitudes about torture.

On the one hand, people have no real perspective on torture: waterboarding isn't torture, no matter what Hitchens says. Most of my family has been waterboarded; it was scarey, but you're perfectly fine afterwards. And that's the worst thing that happened to them... let's not even go into the "horrors" of the belly slap, the Brittney Spears disco, or the dreaded cold room.

On the other hand, who even cares if a terrorist gets tortured? I'm boggled by the idea that it's fine to shred someone to pieces with a minigun, torch them with a flamethrower, or tear their skin off with the vortex behind a tank shell, but making the cave-dwelling butcher uncomfortable for a minute or two is a high crime. Seriously, what's going on in people's heads?

11 He was drowning?  Then why wasn't he coughing up the water that had entered his lungs?  Because he wasn't drowing.

12

Can he still raise his arms above his head?

Does he still have all his original teeth?

Is his skin still intact, without scars or puncture wounds?

 

Yes?  Then please have a nice, hot cup of STFU.

13

Hitchens is one of those dem mercury bulbs who thinks condoms cure AIDS in Africa but won't admit that African males think that fucking virgins is the cure to all disease and African females think that drying out their vaginas makes them virgins.

It's a vicious cycle so all Hitchens can do is blame Catholics.

 

As for the torture...send them to The Vault - Sully should know that S &M clubs have all the necessary tools for torture. 

 

14 But would he object if it were done to Jerry Falwell?

15 On the plus side of this story, Hitchens was tortured.

16
Reading anything Hitchens writes or listening to him talk is torture.

17 "“waterboarding” was something that Americans did to other Americans. It was inflicted, and endured, by those members of the Special Forces who underwent the advanced form of training known as sere (Survival, Evasion, Resistance, Escape)."

Is SERE really reserved to the Special Forces? I thought the Marines and Air Force personnel also went through it.

18
Did he confess to being a wussie?

19 I waterboarded myself with a can of Sprite once.  Was Hitchens trying to drink a soda while watching She-Ra and hanging upside down over the side of a couch?

20
I enjoyed the soundtrack.  The climax was anti-climatic.  I have a feeling this one won't fare well in summer season.  Some more car chases or boobage would have helped.

21 Joanie: Ha!

22

I waterboarded myself with a can of Sprite once.

Heh.  I waterboarded myself once when a buddy and I "borrowed" a canoe from the college outdoorsman club and decided to run the Kennebec River during the spring runoff.  Oddly, a pond canoe didn't do so well in a river swollen 10 feet over it's normal height.

Live Half drown with pneumonia and learn.

23

I not familiar with the sort of torture, normally defined , that someone will voluntarily submit themselves to and when completed, immediately request that it be done again just to see if it was as bad as the first time.

Hitchens even admits that it took at the most 2 minutes for a terrorist to spill his guts.  And we know that information included plans for further terrorist attacks.  

Sounds like the most humane way to get life saving information to me.

 

24 Thanks as always for the linkage, Ace.

Bob

25 For Hitchens, torture is not enough ice in his tumbler full of gin. What a pantywaist.

26 Did they pump him for information?

27

When Mr. Hitchens volunteers to have his left eye burnt out with a poker and afterwards says "I'd like to do it again." Then I will consider waterboarding to be torture.

We waterboard our own troops. No one seems to protest that.

28

And I hope no one tried to flush a copy of Vanity Fair down the crapper, or handled it without wearing white gloves.

And anyone want to bet on whether Sully has ever done some S&M (even if it's not his main shtick) that's worse than waterboarding? No takers, eh? That's a surprise. [And speaking of Sully, as above, by coincidence today a Canadian version of a RINO columnist in a major daily paper called Sullivan a "conservative", claiming he was an "Obamacon" who represents all of those conservatives who are voting Obama.]

29 I've been saying right along that there should be waterboarding demonstrations where we can all volunteer for the process in solidarity with the men and women being accused of "torture."

Hitch's observation that SERE training includes waterboarding for purposes of teaching resistance, not how to inflict it, is irrelevant. They train in evasion to avoid, not "inflict," capture too. So what?

The technique breaks a person down quickly without doing any serious physical or psychological damage. That is not torture no matter how unpleasant the experience might be.

There should be opportunities for lots of supporters to volunteer for this process. I see no reason for Absolute Moral Authority on this issue to be rationed as stingily as it is.

30 Joanie- The sprite thing was hilarious.

31

OK, Hitch, if it was really torture, then those who conducted water boarding on you should be prosecuted.

Think of it this way, if you asked somebody to torture you with a power saw, and you let them cut off your hand... they would almost certainly be prosecuted for first degree assault, and you be committed to an institution.  If water-boarding is truly torture, why isn't anyone even thinking about sending the torturers who tortured you to jail?  Maybe because noone thinks it is.

32

I saw the pictures in the article.....his shirt wasn't covered with water, the pail underneath was empty...his hair wasn't soaked.

I doubt very much that CH was actually subjected to any form of waterboarding.

Now if had had it done by Navy Seals, then I could be sure that it had been done right.  Or he could have done a YouTube video, but he didn't.  So that is my response to Hitchens:  Where is the video?

 

 

33

To me, this was one of the more important points of the article:

Once you have posed the notorious “ticking bomb” question, and once you assume that you are in the right, what will you not do? Waterboarding not getting results fast enough? The terrorist’s clock still ticking? Well, then, bring on the thumbscrews and the pincers and the electrodes and the rack.

There are worse tortures than waterboarding, of course, but I'm pretty comfortable with waterboarding falling within the definition of "torture".

34 So now, reporters who have been waterboarded outnumber terrorists who have been waterboarded, what, 3-to-1?

35

In this case, it's a shame waterboarding isn't fatal.

36

I agree that waterboarding falls within the definition of "torture".

Torture, not so much.

37

As near as I can tell, you can waterboard a subject one of two ways: You can simulate drowning by covering their face while pouring water on them or you can just cover their mouth and actually cause them to aspirate water through the nose. If you aspirate water for any length of time at all you're dead, but you can close off your throat and refuse to inhale it.

It looks to me like if you want to believe waterboarding is torture you have them pour water up your nose, but if you merely want to provoke the instinctive reflex against drowning, all you have to do is Saran Wrap over the mouth and nose and toss a bucket of water on a dude.

Seems to me that if you aspirate water, it's torture and if you don't, it isn't. Since nobody's talking about how we actually did waterboard the whole three scumbags we waterboarded, we cannot know if they were tortured.

If they'd pounded Hitch with Valu-Rite he'd still be on that board.

 

 

38

Hitchens is funny as hell. Even if you think waterboarding is a good tool or hilarious there really is no point in cheering it on. It was banned a long time ago after three people were given the business. I don't see why people are even care about it at this point unless they are talking about those three guys who should have been shot in the first place.

 

Also, why does everyone talk about treatment of our prisoners in the future. I am trying to come up with a list of people that treated our prisoners according to the standards of the day and it only has Saddam's Iraqi army during the two wars and the Nazis. Other than that it seems like our prisoners are usually tortured until they are liberated or tortured to death.

39 If they'd pounded Hitch with Valu-Rite he'd still be on that board.

Yup. But if they used the Saran Wrap he'd only have broken that much faster.

40

What if they made him swim a few laps down at the Y?

Or walk a couple of miles with a briefcase and a bag of groceries?

If don't know if that qualifies as torture, but it would probably have him begging for mercy.

Dumb fucker.  John Bonham wanna-be.

41 Ann Coulter once said that if Andy Sullivan can go to New York City and pay to get it done, it's not torture. She's right, of course. 

42

I'm supposed to cry over something done to mass murdering terrorists...when US soldiers experience it at SERE school? That will be a cold day in hell. Let's put them in an NBC chamber with tear gas and make them take their masks off like we had to in the military (I am assuming they still do that). Would that be torture if we did it to a terrorist? I assure you it was the most unpleasent thing I have ever done. And I have had to do it three times because I volunteered to serve this country! Fuck the notion that making al Qaeda terrorists uncomfortable is torture.

Painful, scary and downright uncomfortable do not equal torture.

www.bothinonetrench.com

43 Hey, look.  Let's cool our jets a little here.  Hitchens does not deserve this calumny.  He makes clear that this is not the worst form of torture.  He decries moral relativists that equate America with the worst thugs in the world.  He allows that some may not consider Waterboarding torture.

He simply draws the line at a different place that you or I would.  There is nothing to disparage there.  We all draw the line in different places.  He is not Andrew Sullivan, who has become a hysterical scold -- and a moral relativist.  Hitchens may not be on the conservative side on all issues ... but on the War on Terror he is stalwart.  We are in danger of letting the perfect become the enemy of the good here.

We should listen to Hitchens.  He is no dummy.  He is no America hater.  He is a US citizen by choice.  He is a patriot. 

Cool it.

44 He's also wrong about this.

45 I agree nomennovum, and Hitchens has a point about a program like that sliding off into nasty places. If we do it we lose credibility and are unable to win people over due to our integrity (Hey guys, how would you like to join our side instead of supporting some jerk-off who might torture you to death . The last year in Iraq has shown Americans how to do things properly in the future if they want good results.

46 If people volunteer for it, just to see what it's like, it's not torture.

47 Waterboarding is for Green Berets in training, or wiry young jihadists whose teeth can bite through the gristle of an old goat. It’s not for wheezing, paunchy scribblers.

Hitch says stuff I don't agree with, and has an irrational hatred of religion, and the Catholic Church in particular (also, Henry Kissinger), but there's something about such self-deprecating remarks that is inherently conservative.  This must be why I like reading him.

48 You beat me to it, Farmer Joe. I've been struggling to come up with a definition of torture, so I can decide how I feel about using it against prisoners. How about this: torture is an experience you wouldn't voluntarily undergo for the purpose of writing a Vanity Fair article.

49 It's not that bad. The advantage you have in training is you know the instructors won't kill you, well, intentionally.

Yeah, I'm sure it seemed a big deal to him. If he ever finds himself sharing a scuzzy basement with five unwashed goat fuckers who have a rusty machete they're real proud of, he'll learn there are way worse things than what I learned as "the dry land drowning."

50 Also, Hitch ain't "whining" about torture; his article is remarkably even-handed and balanced, and he is careful to present both sides. This is a contrast to his usual style, which is more polemical, and in fact, the only polemics here is his vociferous contempt for fatuous boobs who want to argue for moral equivalence between America and her enemies.

Also, you can read Hitch's article and disagree with his conclusions, based on the very information he has provided. If this isn't fair and balanced, I don't know what is.

It's what journalism should be.

51 Kind of fun to watch how off the rails this site is becoming.  Just a bag of frothing dicks now.

What the fuck are you idiots going to do when Barry takes over?  Treason incoming.

52 Wasn't "Frito" the name of the "lawyer" in Idiocracy? It suits.

53

Frothing dicks?

54 Oregon Muse,

You have it exactly right.  Hitchens was quite fair in his article.  He draws his conclusions, and gives his reasons (which are considerably more that the simple fact that he was waterboarded himself) for his conclusions, while giving the reasoning of the contrary opinion without resorting to name-calling or derision.

I believe waterbording is not torture, but it is close.  So, what's wrong with his saying that it is torture to his thinking?  And Hitchens goes much further that just thinking it's torture; he bends over backwards for those who may doubt his argument by actually undergoing the procedure himself.  Really, what more can we ask of columnist?  He doesn't call us contrarians brutish Nazis.  Far from it.  This is a well-argued piece, and we owe him our respect ... and respectful counter arguments ...

... none of which contain the words "fat drunk."

55 What some screaming lefties define as torture (Abu Ghraib), other screaming lefties define as "Saturday Night".

56 BTW, some earlier called Hitchens a "fat British p*ssy."

Actually, he is American -- of recent vintage.  His choice.  Cf. Andrew Sullivan.

57 Nothing that *every special forces guy* has to go through can be torture.

58

Yeah, nothing like getting bit by dogs while you are standing around naked getting your picture taken on a saturday night. WOOOOO

59 Wasn't "Frito" the name of the "lawyer" in Idiocracy? It suits.

You've seen this movie, and I guess you think it makes some good points? It sucks, but hate to break it to ya, you and your brethren mook-ass-9/11 conservatives are the ones being mocked.

60 Frito,

You're clearly too smart for us "mook-ass-9/11 conservatives."  So, why don't you leave and make us all feel better, you sniveling, smug ass 9/10 loser?

61

If my math is correct, if one more jounalist gets waterboarded we will have waterboarded more Americans than terrorists.

What a non-issue that we have allowed the left to beat this country with for the last 5 years.  And no, it isn't torture and yes, the definition matters.  Maybe next time Hitch will subject himself to some of al Qaeda's favorite torture techniques and give us his opinion. 

62 Did he get a cut and blow dry afterwords?  The many times I've seen his mug on the telly he looks like he needs a bath.

63 Sorry if this has been pointed out but after describing how dangerous it is for a fat, old guy who smokes like a chimney, it doesn't seem to dawn on Hitch that um, he was fine.

He was scared but even with his less than ideal profile he suffered no actual harm.

So, how does scaring the shit out of someone equal torture?

John McCain can't raise his arms above his shoulders. That's not fear, that's permanent physical damage...aka torture.

Learn the difference Hitch.

64 Torture, Torture, whine , whine, whine.
Guys like Khalid Sheik Mohamed should thank their lucky stars they were turned over to the current U.S. administration. If it were up to me , and a lot of people like me 'ol Khalid would never have survived being put to the question. If he were roasted over a slow fire this very evening I wouldn't lose a minute of sleep. Remember , he was one of the original 9 11 plotters.

God bless and keep our troops, guards and interrogators. Y'all keep up the good work.

65 Don't guys, and I use the term loosely, like Hitchens, like the jackboots and leather thing?  A little whipping before they go to the bathhouse, where I guess they can be waterboarded as part of watersports?

66 Don't guys, and I use the term loosely, like Hitchens, like the jackboots and leather thing?  A little whipping before they go to the bathhouse, where I guess they can be waterboarded as part of watersports?

Not Hitch. You're thinking of Andi Sullivan.

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