November 29, 2008
— Ace Just to update a dumb story from earlier this week. It gets dumber.
In a highly controversial new storyline Bruce, who first appeared in 1939, is killed by Simon Hurt the leader of the shady Black Glove organisation.
Simon claims he is really Dr Thomas Wayne, saying he faked his own passing when Bruce was a child.
The superhero dies when he tries to stop his foe escaping by helicopter in the new comic Batman R.I.P.
Writer Grant Morrison said: This is so much better than death. People have killed characters in the past but to me, that kind of ends the story!
"I like to keep the story twisting and turning. So what I am doing is a fate worse than death. Things that no one would expect to happen to these guys at all.
"This is the end of Bruce Wayne as Batman."
Batman will live on though, with another character filling his Batsuit.
"So much better." In Cockney rhyming slang, "better" means "more retarded" for some retarded reason.
Posted by: cranky-d at November 29, 2008 10:20 AM (ma4Co)
Posted by: ECM at November 29, 2008 10:26 AM (q3V+C)
This is as dumb as it could possibly get. Totally destroys the entire premise of Batman.
I've never heard of a "Bruce, I'm your father!" situation, though. So that's new. And apparently, he knew Batman was Bruce Wayne, since he decided to tell him. So that's doubly dumb.
He'll turn out to be lying. Bruce won't be dead. Etc. *yawns*
Posted by: lorien1973 at November 29, 2008 10:27 AM (ddGv/)
"filling his Batsuit"
Yup another way to describe homosexual sex.
Posted by: JavaJoe at November 29, 2008 10:28 AM (Am6n/)
Posted by: Qwinn at November 29, 2008 10:43 AM (3FVXC)
For a long time, I presumed that the notorious "Spider-Clone" saga that nearly killed not only Spider-Man (who's sales still haven't fully recovered 14 years on...) but Marvel Comics on the whole, that nobody would ever be so stupid as to screw with the untouchable characters of the American comic book pantheon.
The backlash from readers was fierce, to the point that the perpetrator of the moronic story, Howard Mackie, couldn't attend conventions for a long time after initial responses ranged from having garbage thrown at him, being spit on, to threats of violence against his person.
And that was for a character that had only been a staple of the industry for 32 years at that point and wasn't hot off two of the most commercially successful movies of all time.
Prediction: DC and possibly even parent company AOL/Time Warner will suffer and suffer badly for this. The backlash for this is going to make the "Spider-Clone" backlash look like a slight tantrum by comparrisson. Bruce Wayne will be back and the only thing this attrocity will end up killing is the sales of the Batman books (and probably DC books on the whole), the next Batman film's box office (I've already been told by more than a few folks that no matter what, they're NOT going to see the next Bat-flick after this), the credibility of Grant Morrison as a "visionary" in the industry and possibly his career (Mackie never recovered), and the careers of the dumbass editors who greenlighted this moronic move.
The thing that blows the mind is that "Spider-Clone" is still fresh in the minds of fans. The morons who orchestrated this garbage couldn't possibly have missed it. They have to have seen first hand what happens when you fuck with the formula of immensely popular characters and how potentially dangerous this all is.
Yet they went ahead and did it anyway.
These assholes probably think they're the smartest guys in the buisness right now. Grant Morrisson probably still thinks he's a creative genius.
First time someone takes a swing at one of them at a convention ought to dispel that illusion, if the nasty e-mails and plummeting DC sales don't do it before then.
Thomas Wayne didn't kill Batman.
Hubris was the culprit here.
Posted by: SuperCool at November 29, 2008 10:47 AM (a80B1)
After they killed off Superman, and then brought him back, the idea that "death is forever" in the comic world became a huge joke. They've killed off hundreds of characters and brought them back. Green Lantern, Green Arrow, Wonder Girl, etc. All dead, all brought back.
The only thing they're doing with this Batman death is pissing off people who think that you shouldn't mess with the formula. And not only are they killing him off, they're re-engineering the entire Batman mythos. It's as if, for Superman, Krypton never exploded. It's idiotic in the extreme.
Saner people at DC are probably wondering how to un-do all this lunacy. I'd probably care, if I actually wanted to buy their crap. But I don't.
Comic books should be retired as a medium and the characters should be done in TV and movies. Just forget about publishing a monthly book. The stories are all done anyway, and the good artists are few and far between. They have a ton of opportunities to do good movies and they're killing off their mainline characters instead. Stupidity is their middle name.
Oh, and fuck Grant Morrison.
Posted by: Sydney Carton at November 29, 2008 10:48 AM (+0U3R)
Similarly, we have a comic book writer who is bored with comic books. So, in his boredom, he upends the applecart. Because at least that's interesting to an "adult" who still lives in the world of comics.
Posted by: AmishDude at November 29, 2008 10:52 AM (GlrN/)
Posted by: Gabriel Malor at November 29, 2008 10:53 AM (rWvvO)
And the sheer fact that we're talking about it, now they can say -- "oh, yeah, it created quite a stir!" As if that's a good thing. Why kill off Batman? It's not like a TV show where the kids are starting to grow up, so they give them singing careers. C'mon.
Evidently they do think themselves quite the clever fellows. Yeah. Good luck with that.
Posted by: Kay at November 29, 2008 10:54 AM (DKZtn)
I didn't read the comic, but I scoured various comic forums and the consensus there was not that the Black Glove was Thomas Wayne...
...but that the Black Glove was actually Satan! (Which actually makes more sense in the context of the story).
I should also note that there was near universal dissapointment in this (non) 'ending.'
The problem here is in Grant Morrison's bragging about the story and how it would be "worse than death."
Now, maybe there was some editorial 'fixes' (a la Armageddon 2000) that stopped Morrison from doing what he really wanted to do.
But in the end there really isn't much impact to the 'Batman Universe.'
Other than a possible downturn in sales, of course.
Posted by: Religious Zealot at November 29, 2008 10:55 AM (lnhC8)
Posted by: cheshirecat at November 29, 2008 10:55 AM (nrCTj)
I read the actual comic book yesterday. From what I can tell (and granted, pretty much everything Grant Morrison writes leaves me saying "WTF did I just read" after every panel." I used to think it was because he was a genius and I just wasn't up to his level, now I think it's because the man never took Exposition 101), there's no evidence Bruce Wayne is dead. He jumped after maybe-or-maybe-not Thomas Wayne's helicopter, it fell into the ocean, no bodies recovered.
Gee, that trick has never been used. Sigh. Oh well, Nightwing was left holding Batman's cowl, and Dick Grayson is one of the best, most fully developed characters in DC comics. It might be fun to see him "being Batman" for a while, until Bruce Wayne inevitably returns.
Posted by: The Chief at November 29, 2008 10:57 AM (Ge3Nj)
Posted by: ECM at November 29, 2008 10:58 AM (q3V+C)
Oh, and let me defend the "Death of Superman" story line.
It was pretty well known right from the beginning that they were going to bring the "real" Superman back. It was never DC's intention to keep Superman dead.
What they wanted to do was explore what Superman meant to the DC universe and how big of a hole his death would create.
Part of this was in response to slumping sales - DC wanted to show everyone how important (and relevant) Superman really was.
And in the end, I think they succeeded.
Which was not the case for the Spiderman clone (ugh) saga which almost killed the Spiderman books which was done for no better reason than just to 'update' the character.
Which is exactly what they just did (again) with their 'One More Day' storyline.
Posted by: Religious Zealot at November 29, 2008 11:02 AM (lnhC8)
Posted by: Allen at November 29, 2008 11:04 AM (zomFS)
From what I figure, Bruce has forgiven himself for his parent's death and let it go. He's finally sane. That is why he's no longer batman. the whole father thing was just a stupid stupid ruse by the villian and had nothing to do with anything.
The Sun is just being stupid.
Wayne and Batman's "final" fate is due in a couple months in Final Crisis also created by Morrison.
Posted by: coondawg at November 29, 2008 11:04 AM (cRl9d)
"It might be fun to see him "being Batman" for a while, until Bruce Wayne inevitably returns."
Actually, soon after the whole Bane/AzBats storyline concluded, Bruce left town for a couple of weeks and left Dick in charge wearing the cape and cowl.
It was an interesting storyline (Dick as Batman), but when Bruce returned Dick happily gave the 'uniform' back.
Posted by: Religious Zealot at November 29, 2008 11:05 AM (lnhC8)
Posted by: coondawg at November 29, 2008 11:06 AM (cRl9d)
Posted by: ginaswo at November 29, 2008 11:12 AM (BUrWo)
Posted by: ginaswo at November 29, 2008 11:15 AM (BUrWo)
Posted by: nightwitch at November 29, 2008 11:16 AM (NXY/0)
I think the writers 'mess' with the characters because it takes less creativity and imagination to do that.
It's much easier to kill of a character than to write stories that make the character interesting and exciting.
Prior to the Spiderman clone (ugh) storyline, there were many great and even faomous stories told within the Spiderman books. One of my favorites is the "Kraven's Last Hunt" story which took us through Kraven the Hunter's mental breakdown that results in suicide and through Spiderman's near mental breakdown as he is savagely beaten and left for dead - literally buried in the ground.
There was no attempt to write an 'easy' story or to rewrite a character. Everything in the story fit with what we knew of the characters before.
There simply isn't enough of that type of writing.
Posted by: Religious Zealot at November 29, 2008 11:19 AM (lnhC8)
21 if Bruce Wayne has finally forgiven himself that is an interesting run of events, if they killed off Bruce Wayne, then they suck
If they remove the impetus - the reason - for Bruce Wayne becoming Batman that WOULD be interesting and different.
But it would also remove all reason to HAVE a Batman.
The whole point of Batman was that here was a "real" human being driven by a near insane grief to 'avenge' his parent's death. It explains why Bruce put himself through all of the crazy training necessary to create Batman.
Even Dick Greyson lacks such focus (and the current Robin - Tim Drake - is even less driven).
Only Bruce Wayne is and can be Batman.
The only "interesting" thing left will be the reasoning used to bring him back.
Posted by: Religious Zealot at November 29, 2008 11:24 AM (lnhC8)
Ima thinking deja vu all over again
Posted by: Frank G at November 29, 2008 11:26 AM (P0rQD)
Posted by: Fa Cube Itches at November 29, 2008 11:27 AM (RWmCt)
Wouldn't it be nice if, just once, one of these superheroes would *stay* dead? Even soap opera deaths have more credibility and permanence.
I think there used to be a saying that everyone in comics comes back from the dead except for Bucky and Uncle Ben.
Of course, they brought Bucky back a couple of years ago.
That said, some of the "reborn" stories have been really, really good.
My favorite being how they brought back Hal Jordan (Green Lantern). That was some EXCEPTIONAL writing (if only they wrote like that for him before they decided they had to kill him).
Posted by: Religious Zealot at November 29, 2008 11:37 AM (lnhC8)
Posted by: mrcaniac at November 29, 2008 11:42 AM (Rbulg)
Posted by: Allen at November 29, 2008 11:43 AM (zomFS)
he put the nail in the coffin of the Xmen
bragged that he would "Screw with the industry until its bleeding"
FUX him and the rest of the slimy limey's
GOD BLESS THE IRON MAIDEN THATCHER!
Posted by: wpdunn71901 at November 29, 2008 11:46 AM (2/+1I)
Not to worry. Someone else will be in the Bat-costume for a while, but Bruce Wayne will be back in the Batcave sooner or later--certainly before the next movie.
It's a gimmick, and not even a new one.
By the way, the new Captain America (AKA his long-thought-dead WWII sidekick, Bucky) is even more badass than the original. For one thing, he's packing heat--always a good idea for someone with no real super-powers. For another thing, while everyone thought he was dead, he was actually brainwashed into being a Soviet cyborg assassin during the Cold War. The Russkies kept him on ice and only thawed him out for missions--that's why he's still young.
Silly, but this is comics. As far as "reviving dead characters" go, Bucky's return has been great. Captain America is a great read for anyone who enjoys comics or espionage/suspense stories. Really good stuff.
Posted by: tsj017 at November 29, 2008 11:47 AM (TV9JE)
As far as poorly treated "rebirth/revival" stories - DC should stop mucking around with their Flash characters. Barry was great and died a worthy death in Crisis on Infinite Earths.
Wally then turned into a great Flash - but they've killed him off several times only to bring him right back.
Then there was Impulse (imagine an ADHD kid with super powers!) - which was a great comic book. Then they moved him up to 'Kid Flash' and then ultimately to just 'Flash' after Wally West's latest 'death.' Then they killed HIM off so that they could bring Barry and Wally back.
Teen Titans get no respect.
Posted by: Religious Zealot at November 29, 2008 11:52 AM (lnhC8)
"My favorite being how they brought back Hal Jordan (Green Lantern). That was some EXCEPTIONAL writing (if only they wrote like that for him before they decided they had to kill him)."
THAT, was a great story.
Everyone got what they wanted: the readers got a great story, the fans got Hal back (I stopped reading GL after they killed off Hal) and DC made some coin and re-ignited the series.
A job well done.
Posted by: SuperCool at November 29, 2008 12:02 PM (a80B1)
STOP SCREWING WITH MY CHILDHOOD!
Jaysus T. Cheeee-rist, it was bad enough when they brought Gwen Stacy-clone back. And bad enough when Jean Grey/Phoenix comes back more often than a pro wrestler.
Sonofabitch, if I ever meet this fucking fathead Grant Morrison, I'll kick in in the shins until he cries like a little girl.
Posted by: ushie at November 29, 2008 12:10 PM (Z+oOG)
Everyone got what they wanted: the readers got a great story, the fans got Hal back (I stopped reading GL after they killed off Hal) and DC made some coin and re-ignited the series.
A job well done.
The only thing I didn't like about it was what they did to Kyle (the then-new GL).
I liked Hal as GL but I also liked what they had done with Kyle and I thought it unfortunate that they had to mess with Kyle's character.
Of course, if they had handled Hal's "heel turn" better, more people would have given Kyle a chance.
Posted by: Religious Zealot at November 29, 2008 12:11 PM (lnhC8)
Posted by: dorkafork at November 29, 2008 12:16 PM (LIM+2)
Comics do not appeal to a wide swath of kids -- they are made to appeal to about 50,000 or so forty-year old plus fanboys.
Seriously, that is the circulation numbers, ever declining (Superman was selling 2 million copies in the early 1990s), with comics costing about $5-6 an issue. Comics are sold ONLY in comic book shops, which are less than 2,000 in number. Sales from Trade Paperbacks (collected issues of comics sold in bookstores) are fairly minimal, about 10% of comic book publishing revenues.
Comics publishing accounts for about 11-15% of yearly revenue for Marvel. Most of the money comes from movies and toys.
Thus, writers like Morrison are given free reign to pander to the rather idiot geeky fanboys who are very small in number. Some comics have only 30,000 copies sold per month. Sales decline year after year after year.
The only "new" Comic book characters created since the 1960's are Marvel's Punisher, the Dark Horse "Comics Greatest World" characters like Barb Wire, Ghost, X, Hero Zero, King Tyger, Titan, etc. and the Valiant and Malibu lines (Shadowman, Harbingers, Solar Man of the Atom, X-O Man o War, Eternal Warrior, Magnus Robot Fighter, Ninjak, Turok Dinosaur Hunter, Hardcase, Prime, Firearm, NightMan, etc.) and a few one-offs like Hellboy.
Creativity in Marvel and DC is pretty much dead. The "new" characters all came from Independents hungry for sales, and even they came up during the late 1980's early 1990s Comics boom.
The problem is that the Comics were founded on selling characters and stories to boys who wanted either power-fantasies (I wish I was Grown Up -- Superman) or save-the-day-get-the-girl fantasies (Superman, Spider-Man, etc.) It's as simple as the chord structure of a basic Blues Song and just as hard to execute properly.
DC and Marvel are just coasting on the efforts done in some cases 70 years ago. But the comics storylines can negatively affect fans of the characters who don't read the comics but know of what's going on -- but Warners movie execs have no control over what goes on in the Comics branch which is a PC-Multiculti-Liberal-Gay playland (DC's editor has mandated "diversity" which means killing off White Straight Male characters and replacing them with Gay/Lesbian/Non-White characters).
Posted by: whiskey at November 29, 2008 12:18 PM (4878o)
What's so bad about changing the market? What's so bad about appealing to a general audience? Nah, just squeeze those chumps for all their worth and bitch when you can't squeeze a little more.
Posted by: Z Ryan at November 29, 2008 12:30 PM (PDeVA)
To continue your point - one of the biggest problems of the comic's industry is the unwillingness (or inability) to find and create a new generation of readers.
Most of the comics printed today are, as you said, written for adults and contain subject matter that doesn't interest your typical 8 year old kid.
Since they already have an audience of aging (but wealthy) baby boomers, they continue to try to keep them interested instead of building for the future.
To be fair, the sports card industry has the same problem (packs of cards are simply too expensive nowadays for kids to afford).
What all this means is that in another generation (after the baby boomers die off), there won't be many people reading comics.
Posted by: Religious Zealot at November 29, 2008 12:34 PM (lnhC8)
cost for 22 pages of comic (packed with just as many pages of ads) that will take you 5 minutes to read: $4 And your story (in 5 more parts, each $4 more) will be done in 6 months. Enjoy!
Posted by: Z Ryan at November 29, 2008 12:38 PM (PDeVA)
Posted by: HowardDevore at November 29, 2008 12:40 PM (0iFrh)
You nailed it. The comics division is run by multiculturalist idiots and that has been a big thorn in my side. How often do you read a Batman comic with Poision Ivy as the villian, and Batman says things like "well, I don't agree with her methods but her ideals are solid." As if the most technoligically apt detective in the world is a fricking environmentalist nutjob. And the killing off of established characters to replace them with women/minorities is beyond insane. Just after the run of Justice League Unlimited on TV, when The Question became popular again, they kill him off to replace him with a hispanic lesbian. Stupid, stupid stupid! They kill off Blue Beetle to replace him with a mexican. They mess up Batgirl and make her into a permanent cripple (who can't be healed notwithstanding people are rising from the dead left and right).
I'll take Batman Begins, The Dark Knight, and the DC Animated Universe, and forget about anything else DC has done. Their comics SUCK, because their writers suck and their editors are mandating diversity - which no adult reader gives a crap about.
Posted by: Sydney Carton at November 29, 2008 12:46 PM (+0U3R)
Posted by: captspaulding at November 29, 2008 01:04 PM (LVT6e)
Posted by: WonderWartHog at November 29, 2008 01:06 PM (LVT6e)
Posted by: Z Ryan at November 29, 2008 01:10 PM (PDeVA)
As for this idiocy--all I can say is, they'd better retcon it, fast. Talk about fucking up the entire basis for the character! Stuff like this reminds me why I pick and choose my comic books; as far as I'm concerned, there hasn't been a decent Batman storyline since "No Man's Land."
Posted by: Tungsten Monk at November 29, 2008 01:37 PM (xYeJ1)
That is complete bullshit, considering she had no problem melding with Braniac for a while. It's a writer's contrivance. The point is, they killed off the classic Batgirl to replace her with another liberal sterotype. Last I checked, Batman has a pretty keen mind and he's still out in the streets. Oracle is a stupid character anyway, tied to the 90's internet craze in the comic industry.
Posted by: Sydney Carton at November 29, 2008 02:19 PM (+0U3R)
Posted by: ECM at November 29, 2008 02:59 PM (q3V+C)
Posted by: Crash at November 29, 2008 03:34 PM (niTbq)
To add to what whiskey said, the "casual" fanboys have been shut out because the "mom's basement" fanboys are the only ones with the time/inclination to actually give feedback - and they're bugfuck insane.
So, naturally, dumbasses like Morrison get positive feedback from the idiots, and the whole thing keeps spiraling downward. No more comic outside comic shops - and have you been into one of those, lately? Seriously, folks, get out of the basement.
I used to be a casual collector, but since the late 90s everything I've been seeing has been crap. I look in every now and then, and each time it's worse.
Sure, NOW they start to make movies, they couldn't have pulled that off in the late 80s and early 90s when there were a few decent writers still around.
Posted by: Merovign at November 29, 2008 04:50 PM (UXoQt)
I read the comic.
There was no body recovered.
If there was no body then there was no death.
They'll milk the "Dead Batman" storyline for about a year and then he'll come back.
Just like they did with Superman, Green Lantern, Green Arrow, and Captain America (current storyline).
Posted by: Aaron at November 29, 2008 04:58 PM (grVhf)
Posted by: Christopher Taylor at November 29, 2008 06:42 PM (0+Ggj)
Posted by: Z Ryan at November 29, 2008 07:05 PM (PDeVA)
Posted by: fiatboomer at November 29, 2008 09:34 PM (K3n3y)
Posted by: Egon at November 29, 2008 10:01 PM (o2slJ)
Ugh. Grant Morrison is like a drug. He says the most crazy crap ever imaginable and I can't get enough of it. Trying to figure out what he's talking about helps excercise the brain - it's like sudoku minus the temper tantrums.
He should've gotten a talk show. Not write comics. I like Arkham Asylum and 52 (no clue what part he wrote) but that's it. I tried to read the first volume of the Invisibles because everyone has said how "cool" they thought it was - it's obscene. And like everything else Morrison writes, I have no clue what the hell is going on. Which is fine when you're giving interviews and whatnot Grant, but not when you're working!
I swear, the only time superheroes have been portrayed well lately are on screen. Of course Batman Begins and the Dark Knight, but also cartoons like Teen Titans and JLU. I still mourn their cancellation.
Posted by: Emily at November 30, 2008 03:54 AM (KfLsZ)
Just after the run of Justice League Unlimited on TV, when The Question became popular again, they kill him off to replace him with a hispanic lesbian. Stupid, stupid stupid! They kill off Blue Beetle to replace him with a mexican.
Don't forget turning the one patriotic military character in the DC Universe, Captain Atom, into a super-badguy. Thus crushing most of the Charleton legacy characters in one fell swoop.
I guess Nightshade, Peacemaker, and Judo Master are still out there somewhere...
Posted by: Captain Atom at November 30, 2008 03:55 PM (0pjTS)
Posted by: Spurwing Plover at November 30, 2008 05:09 PM (ObFiq)
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