April 29, 2018

"The Banality Of Evil:"
When The Process Is More Important Than Life

— Open Blogger

In her book, "Eichmann In Jerusalem," Hannah Arendt uses that phrase to describe Eichmann's peculiar and detached attitude toward the monstrous evil that he perpetrated on the Jewish people. Her thesis is a bit more complex than that, but the phrase applies so well to the clerks and administrators and judges whose slavish attention to the process and the rules and the reinforcement of their own power made sure that Alfie Evans died.

It is nothing more than a firm and unshakable belief that government knows best; that the individual is secondary and subordinate to to the wishes and goals of the central planners and the career bureaucrats whose contempt for Everyman is palpable.

What saddens me almost as much as the death of an innocent child is the obtuseness of the political and medical establishment, who have become so inured to the concept of government as the ultimate arbiter of...everything...that they have lost sight of the basic human right of self determination. As Alfie Evans dies, calls grow for better ways to support grieving parents There are a bunch of awful quotations from the article, but here is one that encapsulates it, from a physician no less...

Looking forward, there is a real need to try to resolve disagreements between parents and doctors. Entrenched disagreement can reach a point where it's very difficult to step back from...

It wasn't a disagreement. The parents of this child were trying everything in their power to save his life, and the government, in the form of the judiciary and the medical establishment was trying to kill him.

Why? because those are the rules, and rules must be obeyed slavishly, or society will soon be filled with individuals who do what they want with their own lives.

The first thing Hitler did when he gained power was to change the law, to make his desire for the destruction of the Jewish people a legally acceptable result.

Alfie Evans' death does not rise to the level of genocide, but it is on the continuum.

Posted by: Open Blogger at 07:25 AM | Comments (308)
Post contains 364 words, total size 2 kb.

1 maybe first

Posted by: mallfly the Peach of Hoboken at April 29, 2018 07:21 AM (KxbBq)

2 Alfie Evans' death does not rise to the level of genocide, but it is on the continuum. Within the saving of one, is the saving of the whole world ...

Posted by: Adriane the Logistics Critic ... at April 29, 2018 07:22 AM (AoK0a)

3 I still want a clear statement from the government and crown regarding the course of action had this been the new royal baby.

Posted by: Moron Robbie - I choose to live my life as a black woman at April 29, 2018 07:23 AM (VgKNm)

4 The first thing Hitler did when he gained power was to change the law, to make his desire for the destruction of the Jewish people a legally acceptable result. ----------- This is why we taught our children that just because something is legal, that does not make it morally correct. Exhibit A in our country: abortion.

Posted by: bluebell at April 29, 2018 07:23 AM (oMtOd)

5 Yep. A thing always to bear in mind - History's Worst Monsters, your Lenin, Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot et al, NEVER BROKE ANY LAWS in doing what they did. It was all perfectly legal, mandatory in most cases.

Posted by: Your Decidedly Devious Uncle Palpatine at April 29, 2018 07:24 AM (fM807)

6 Say, what is Sarah Palin up to these days? She called this a decade ago.

Posted by: Moron Robbie - I choose to live my life as a black woman at April 29, 2018 07:25 AM (VgKNm)

7 this case makes me so fvcking angry, i cant even...

Posted by: runner at April 29, 2018 07:25 AM (bUjCl)

8 This is why we taught our children that just because something is legal, that does not make it morally correct. Exhibit A in our country: abortion. Posted by: bluebell at April 29, 2018 12:23 PM (oMtOd) ---------------------------- X10

Posted by: Blake at April 29, 2018 07:26 AM (WEBkv)

9 The dandelions are blooming and the robins are battling with the starlings. 

Spring is here!

Posted by: Fritz at April 29, 2018 07:26 AM (J7XgW)

10 Once the bureaucrats decided that there was no hope for the child, they could not allow anyone else to prove them wrong by saving him. Alfie was sacrificed to preserve the public's faith in the wise benevolence of the State.

Posted by: Toad-O at April 29, 2018 07:26 AM (cct0t)

11 Was it Plato, Aristotle or Socrates - a good citizen does not mean a good person ? I forget, but following the law in an immoral society is not an achievement.

Posted by: runner at April 29, 2018 07:27 AM (bUjCl)

12 Any mass protests in the UK over this?

Posted by: steevy at April 29, 2018 07:27 AM (LiyEm)

13 Socialism is the philosophy of communism, the people are nothing more than property of the British elite state. Out of control power mad bureaurats run socialist nations sans any accountability or humanity. May the doctors and judges involved in this case be dealt with on their death bed the same way they treated that poor child.

Posted by: Rose at April 29, 2018 07:27 AM (+VCSF)

14 Does anybody know the reason the doctors and British government wanted that child to die?

Posted by: Vic We Have No Party at April 29, 2018 07:27 AM (mpXpK)

15 Sodom and Gomorrah had laws, and Lot disobeyed them.

Posted by: runner at April 29, 2018 07:27 AM (bUjCl)

16 Blue Origin is about to test their New Shepard rocket and capsule in a few minutes: https://www.blueorigin.com/#youtubeZUV53Nn3PhA

Posted by: rickl at April 29, 2018 07:27 AM (sdi6R)

17 Fetishization of "process" is the crux of Trump's more high minded critics too. He's breaking norms! He's not staffing properly throughout the interagency! Save us, Anthony Kennedy!

Posted by: occam's brassiere at April 29, 2018 07:28 AM (cCsPW)

18 Those who won't look evil in the face are still destined to feel it.

Posted by: Skip at April 29, 2018 07:28 AM (aC6Sd)

19 11. Aristotle, in the Politics, makes that point.

Posted by: Your Decidedly Devious Uncle Palpatine at April 29, 2018 07:28 AM (fM807)

20 Alfie's death is so full of fail. IMO, one of the biggest differences between America and the rest of the world is that we are wary of power for all the right reasons. Of course, those who have a power fetish will criticize those who stand in their way. RIP, Alfie.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy likes lobster [/i][/s][/b] at April 29, 2018 07:28 AM (GdWl+)

21 5 Yep. A thing always to bear in mind - History's Worst Monsters, your Lenin, Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot et al, NEVER BROKE ANY LAWS in doing what they did. It was all perfectly legal, mandatory in most cases. Posted by: Your Decidedly Devious Uncle Palpatine at April 29, 2018 12:24 PM (fM807) -------------------------- They first had to kick God out of the picture, though, because they certainly broke His laws.

Posted by: Blake at April 29, 2018 07:28 AM (WEBkv)

22 That situation is a clear an example of why I WILL NOT DISARM. My kid is grown so I will never be in the same position but if you can't imagine something similar coming to America, you ain't paying attention. For fucks sake!!!!!!!! The cops formed a perimeter in the hospital to prevent the child being removed before he died! Our oldest and greatest ally? Fuck you! Fuck Britain and the NHS and every person that defends this. Sorry for being profane but to hell with everyone of these bastards!

Posted by: weirdflunky at April 29, 2018 07:28 AM (Q21N2)

23 Who is the doctor working for ? As in who signs the paycheck ? You ? Not any more. Here, they work for insurance companies. In the UK, they work for the government.

Posted by: sock_rat_eez, they are gaslighting us 24/365[/i][/b][/u][/s] at April 29, 2018 07:28 AM (Mbmmf)

24 Actually, one of the first things Hitler did was to install full-fledged socialized medicine to replace the semi-socialized system that allowed more private-sector choice.

Posted by: Margarita DeVille at April 29, 2018 07:29 AM (0jtPF)

25 6 Say, what is Sarah Palin up to these days? She called this a decade ago. Posted by: Moron Robbie - I choose to live my life as a black woman at April 29, 2018 12:25 PM (VgKNm) ------------------ The uneducated snowbilly? Never heard of her...

Posted by: MSM memory hole at April 29, 2018 07:29 AM (WEBkv)

26 Everything one needs to know about the nature and trajectory of socialism is packed within this story. By either will, power, indifference, unreflective momentum of groupthink, all of the worst qualities of humanity are nurtured and abetted by socialism. The socialists believe their system is superior to the excesses of capitalism by introducing a compulsory sanitization of human impulses, but all they've done is institutionalize worse aspects of human nature while barring any social "escape valve" for the individual.

Posted by: Dan Smoot's Apprentice at April 29, 2018 07:31 AM (H8QX8)

27 Here, they work for insurance companies. In the UK, they work for the government. Posted by: sock_rat_eez, they are gaslighting us 24/365 at April 29, 2018 12:28 PM (Mbmmf) - I had a doctor's office tell me that I couldn't pay cash for a procedure that cost $1k. They insisted it would be insurance fraud since I had insurance, and not filing was illegal. The amount they could bill insurance? $3500

Posted by: Moron Robbie - I choose to live my life as a black woman at April 29, 2018 07:32 AM (VgKNm)

28 This story hurts me deeply. I think I need to step away for a bit, mow the lawn, drink a beer and watch some playoff hockey. Poor little guy. Britain is lost. Later, Horde.

Posted by: Pug Mahon, Gentleman Drunkard at April 29, 2018 07:32 AM (Mkuv2)

29 Fetishization of "process" is the crux of Trump's more high minded critics too.

Posted by: occam's brassiere at April 29, 2018 12:28 PM (cCsPW)

That is a very good point.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at April 29, 2018 07:32 AM (wYseH)

30 Good piece. Tom Shippey is his books and interviews on Tolkien made a good point which I will paraphrase from memory: "The history of evil in the 20th century is oddly impersonal. It's as if no one really wants to do it, and so much of the true evil is carried out by bureaucrats."

Posted by: Aetius451AD at April 29, 2018 07:32 AM (ycWCI)

31 Aristotle, in the Politics, makes that point. Posted by: Your Decidedly Devious Uncle Palpatine at April 29, 2018 12:28 PM (fM807) Thanks Uncle Palp.

Posted by: runner at April 29, 2018 07:32 AM (bUjCl)

32 OK, here is the reason.  Should have known it would be connected to the frigging UN.


http://tinyurl.com/y7vzw3og

Posted by: Vic We Have No Party at April 29, 2018 07:32 AM (mpXpK)

33 3 I still want a clear statement from the government and crown regarding the course of action had this been the new royal baby. Posted by: Moron Robbie - I choose to live my life as a black woman at April 29, 2018 12:23 PM (VgKNm) ------------------------ From what I've seen, any Brit who asks that question will wind up in jail and charged with some sort of hate speech infraction.

Posted by: Blake at April 29, 2018 07:32 AM (WEBkv)

34 Technically our oldest enemy.

Posted by: steevy at April 29, 2018 07:33 AM (LiyEm)

35 I think this can be called "Reverend Lovejoy Syndrome".

Posted by: Steve and Cold Bear at April 29, 2018 07:33 AM (/qEW2)

36 Socrates didn't say anything that we know of. None of his works survived. We only have what other people said about him.

Posted by: sniffybigtoe at April 29, 2018 07:34 AM (xfb67)

37 The crown doesn't mean shit,they are simply the most expensive welfare recipients...

Posted by: steevy at April 29, 2018 07:34 AM (LiyEm)

38 Hadamar and T4.

Weren't people hung for that in 1946?

Posted by: 1921 C DRUM at April 29, 2018 07:34 AM (h7sWp)

39 Socrates didn't say anything that we know of. None of his works survived. We only have what other people said about him. Posted by: sniffybigtoe at April 29, 2018 12:34 PM (xfb67) yes, Plato took notes, blah, blah, blah...

Posted by: runner at April 29, 2018 07:34 AM (bUjCl)

40 >>>Alfie Evans' death does not rise to the level of genocide genocide vs. homicide genocide = the deliberate killing of a large group of people, especially those of a particular ethnic group or nation (genos race + cide kill) This was homicide (homo man + cide kill)

Posted by: m at April 29, 2018 07:34 AM (0bRDi)

41 if you can't imagine something similar coming to America, you ain't paying attention. Posted by: weirdflunky at April 29, 2018 12:28 PM (Q21N2) It's here, now, in larvae form -- busting at the opportunity to grow. And it grows in silence and inaction. You fight it now, hard, while there is time. Trump is failing at this I'm sorry to say. I felt that this would be his weakest point, and why I thought Bannon and Stephen Miller would be point men in the culture war. Bannon is long gone, and Miller might as well be for all I can tell.

Posted by: Dan Smoot's Apprentice at April 29, 2018 07:35 AM (H8QX8)

42 I guess the Hippocratic Oath doesn't work in socialized medicine. Evidently accountants are in charge.

Posted by: Puddin Head at April 29, 2018 07:35 AM (vV/gB)

43 The Blue Origin capsule has curtains on the windows. That may be a first for a spacecraft.

Posted by: rickl at April 29, 2018 07:35 AM (sdi6R)

44 4--This is why we taught our children that just because something is legal, that does not make it morally correct. Exhibit A in our country: abortion. Posted by: bluebell at April 29, 2018 12:23 PM (oMtOd) --------------------------- AMEN. And I have also taught my kids that just because something is "the law of the land," whether by order of a legislature, executive, or court, does not make it either a Constitutional or natural "right." Exhibit A --- abortion Exhibit B --- gay 'marriage'

Posted by: Margarita DeVille at April 29, 2018 07:35 AM (0jtPF)

45 From what I've seen, any Brit who asks that question will wind up in jail and charged with some sort of hate speech infraction. Posted by: Blake at April 29, 2018 12:32 PM (WEBkv) - That's my understanding as well. Britain might not be lost yet, but the country has a lot in common with little Alfie.

Posted by: Moron Robbie - I choose to live my life as a black woman at April 29, 2018 07:35 AM (VgKNm)

46 6 Say, what is Sarah Palin up to these days? She called this a decade ago. Posted by: Moron Robbie - I choose to live my life as a black woman at April 29, 2018 12:25 PM (VgKNm) Down the memory hole!

Posted by: The MFM at April 29, 2018 07:35 AM (zTtjJ)

47 Why was this a rule though? I can imagine them saying "We won't treat him, you can take him". But not "We won't treat him, and he MUST DIE. We regard you as a flight risk". That's just gratuitously sadistic.

Posted by: Steve and Cold Bear at April 29, 2018 07:35 AM (/qEW2)

48 Maybe it will be a quote I think is wrongly stated from Stalin, 1 death is a tragic, 1,000,000 deaths are a statistic

Posted by: Skip at April 29, 2018 07:36 AM (aC6Sd)

49 I'm sure if Alfie Evans name was Muhammed, heaven and earth would have been moved to save him.

Posted by: BeckoningChasm at April 29, 2018 07:37 AM (l9m7l)

50 When I die I may very well ride the lightning. I hope not but I may. If God is just, and I believe that he is, these mfers will ride it too. That's it for me. If I stay here I'll get banned. A good day to all the horde.

Posted by: weirdflunky at April 29, 2018 07:37 AM (Q21N2)

51 "Under British law, courts often intervene when parents and doctors disagree over the treatment of a child, who's rights often take precedent over the parent's right to decide what's best."

Posted by: runner at April 29, 2018 07:37 AM (bUjCl)

52 42 I guess the Hippocratic Oath doesn't work in socialized medicine. Evidently accountants are in charge. Posted by: Puddin Head at April 29, 2018 12:35 PM (vV/gB) Yeah, we've replaced that obsolete ritual with the new Bureaucratic Oath.

Posted by: The NHS at April 29, 2018 07:38 AM (zTtjJ)

53 Why was this a rule though? I can imagine them saying "We won't treat him, you can take him". But not "We won't treat him, and he MUST DIE. We regard you as a flight risk". That's just gratuitously sadistic. Posted by: Steve and Cold Bear at April 29, 2018 12:35 PM (/qEW2) - I'm sure it was to remind people of their place. Secondary, equal outcomes. Someone else might not be able to get treatment, so your baby has to die in solidarity.

Posted by: Moron Robbie - I choose to live my life as a black woman at April 29, 2018 07:38 AM (VgKNm)

54 Seen at a sports site"A royal baby,a royal wedding and the hockey team first appearance in international championships in decades.Britain is riding high" or words to that effect.

Posted by: steevy at April 29, 2018 07:38 AM (LiyEm)

55 47. As Vic's linked article explains, as a signatory to the Convention on the Rights of Children, Britain is obligated to have the state as the guarantor of the child's welfare, not the parents. In essence, this was legally required. Yep. Not only allowed, but required.

Posted by: Your Decidedly Devious Uncle Palpatine at April 29, 2018 07:38 AM (fM807)

56 Seriously, why aren't we putting sanctions on countries that do this? Where the f is the UN?

Posted by: sniffybigtoe at April 29, 2018 07:39 AM (xfb67)

57 Related, on our local news they had an article about high school student with down syndrome and how having that kid in the graduating class had made all the other senior student's experience better. How many down syndrome babies even make it out of the birth canal anymore. Almost none. So this same kid who enriched everyone's life at the school is probably 1 or 2 out of a hundred that were not aborted. Culture of Death.

Posted by: SteveOReno at April 29, 2018 07:39 AM (2sCft)

58 47 Why was this a rule though? I can imagine them saying "We won't treat him, you can take him". But not "We won't treat him, and he MUST DIE. We regard you as a flight risk". That's just gratuitously sadistic. Posted by: Steve and Cold Bear at April 29, 2018 12:35 PM (/qEW2) This. This is the state not wanting the proles to be able to even question it's dictates for fear of others following suit. This is Ego masquerading as the rule of law. However, when you make it illegal for parents to try to save the life of their child by any means and without breaking any law or harming anyone else- that is EVIL. There is no law worthy of the name here. Just Evil.

Posted by: Aetius451AD at April 29, 2018 07:39 AM (ycWCI)

59 Here's an idea, every year hundreds/thousands of adult UK citizens obtain visas to be treated in the US so let's make them live by the same rules as UK infants. DENY all medical visas from the UK to the US unless the person is 6 years old or less.

Posted by: Jerry Atrick at April 29, 2018 07:40 AM (mufgS)

60 Convention on the Rights of Children == another gift from the UN

Posted by: runner at April 29, 2018 07:40 AM (bUjCl)

61 James Garner in The Americanization of Emily: You American-haters bore me to tears, Ms. Barham. I've dealt with Europeans all my life. I know all about us parvenus from the States who come over here and race around your old cathedral towns with our cameras and Coca-Cola bottles... Brawl in your pubs, paw at your women, and act like we own the world. We overtip, we talk too loud, we think we can buy anything with a Hershey bar. I've had Germans and Italians tell me how politically ingenuous we are, and perhaps so. But we haven't managed a Hitler or a Mussolini yet. I've had Frenchmen call me a savage because I only took half an hour for lunch. Hell, Ms. Barham, the only reason the French take two hours for lunch is because the service in their restaurants is lousy. The most tedious lot are you British. We crass Americans didn't introduce war into your little island. This war, Ms. Barham to which we Americans are so insensitive, is the result of 2,000 years of European greed, barbarism, superstition, and stupidity. Don't blame it on our Coca-Cola bottles. Europe was a going brothel long before we came to town.

Posted by: Bertram Cabot, Jr. at April 29, 2018 07:40 AM (IqV8l)

62 You know what would have cut this crap out? The threat of immediate trade sanctions on the UK. Trump is the best we've gotten in a long time...but a really conservative president could do a lot to change the world.

Posted by: 18-1 at April 29, 2018 07:40 AM (Z8FFX)

63 I don't understand the medical profession any for. I'm having problems with docs just making appts. for dad for this test and that. 10K for a Petscan? Why? This shit has to end. Just because insurance will cover it, doesn't mean it is necessary. It's to the point I think they are taking advantage of him.

Posted by: Infidel at April 29, 2018 07:41 AM (a3OL0)

64 ou know what would have cut this crap out? The threat of immediate trade sanctions on the UK. Trump is the best we've gotten in a long time...but a really conservative president could do a lot to change the world. Posted by: 18-1 at April 29, 2018 12:40 PM (Z8FFX) dude. we are not the world's policeman.

Posted by: runner at April 29, 2018 07:41 AM (bUjCl)

65 There seems be no second opinions allowed in socialized medicine. Hitler would be pleased.

Posted by: Puddin Head at April 29, 2018 07:42 AM (vV/gB)

66 I understand most doctors don't take the Hippocratic oath anymore

Posted by: steevy at April 29, 2018 07:42 AM (LiyEm)

67 42 I guess the Hippocratic Oath doesn't work in socialized medicine. Evidently accountants are in charge. Posted by: Puddin Head at April 29, 2018 12:35 PM (vV/gB) ----------------------------- In 1960 over 90% of med schools had their graduates recite the original Hippocratic Oath. In 2010 over 90% did NOT. The Oath of course forbids both euthanasia and abortion. It had to go.

Posted by: Margarita DeVille at April 29, 2018 07:42 AM (0jtPF)

68 Hey, can we start offing the mentally retarded and cripples while were at it? Their quality of life is up to our standards.

Posted by: SteveOReno at April 29, 2018 07:43 AM (2sCft)

69 66. No shock there. It specifically prohibits abortion and euthanasia.

Posted by: Your Decidedly Devious Uncle Palpatine at April 29, 2018 07:43 AM (fM807)

70 Politicians must take a Hypocritic Oath.

Posted by: sniffybigtoe at April 29, 2018 07:43 AM (xfb67)

71 As NHS continues to run out of money, look for these policies to expand and spread. Let's hope they fall on the heads of those who supported them in this case. And can we not hear from the NHS cheerleaders about how NHS took care of Alfie for 18 months 'free of charge?' The fact that people are screwed out of their money day in, day out through VAT does not mean healthcare is 'free.' It means that money has been extorted from them by the same government that now denies them care because they're 'too costly.'

Posted by: Mr. Peebles at April 29, 2018 07:43 AM (oVJmc)

72 Not only allowed, but required.

Posted by: Your Decidedly Devious Uncle Palpatine at April 29, 2018 12:38 PM (fM807)

This was a British court's interpretation of the law. It is less the UN and the EU and more the jackboot of the government on the necks of its subjects.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at April 29, 2018 07:44 AM (wYseH)

73 "Alfie Evans' death does not rise to the level of genocide, but it is on the continuum." Absolutely spot-on. In the HBO movie "Conspiracy" about the Wannsee Conference which kicked off the institutional Holocaust, there is the character Erich Neumann. He is an obsequious accountant, a bean counter. IMHO, he is the most scary of the characters, even more than the guys in the SS uniforms, because he is so . . . normal. He personifies both Arendt's "banality" and the attitudes you describe in this post. Well done.

Posted by: RS at April 29, 2018 07:44 AM (CNQqJ)

74 dude. we are not the world's policeman. *** No troops, no "policing". You want to establish a fascist police state? We stop trading with you.

Posted by: 18-1 at April 29, 2018 07:44 AM (Z8FFX)

75 Two words: death panels.

Posted by: That Guy at April 29, 2018 07:45 AM (TOQfo)

76 Meh,life unworthy of life. UK Judge

Posted by: steevy at April 29, 2018 07:45 AM (LiyEm)

77 61 James Garner in The Americanization of Emily: This war, Ms. Barham to which we Americans are so insensitive, is the result of 2,000 years of European greed, barbarism, superstition, and stupidity. Don't blame it on our Coca-Cola bottles. Europe was a going brothel long before we came to town. Posted by: Bertram Cabot, Jr. at April 29, 2018 12:40 PM (IqV8l) Ah, yes, Paddy Chayefsky. How we need someone like him today.

Posted by: Dan Smoot's Apprentice at April 29, 2018 07:45 AM (H8QX8)

78 There has been great concern about Social Security going bankrupt. The solution is obvious. Euthanize people when they turn 65. Elites excepted, of course.

Posted by: Anonosaurus Wrecks, Tyrannosaur Wrangler at April 29, 2018 07:46 AM (+y/Ru)

79 Grant Gilmore, a Yale law professor from back when that credential had some meaning, once wrote: "The worse the society, the more law there will be. In hell there will be nothing but law, and due process will be meticulously observed."

Posted by: Bear with Assymetrical Balls at April 29, 2018 07:46 AM (H5knJ)

80 They have truly lost their humanity. God help us as it creeps closer to the heart of our nation as well. Millions and millions of our unborn sons and daughters sacrificed on our alters of convenience and expediency.

Posted by: SteveOReno at April 29, 2018 07:46 AM (2sCft)

81 76 Meh,life unworthy of life. UK Judge Posted by: steevy at April 29, 2018 12:45 PM (LiyEm) Our role model!

Posted by: Hawaiian Judges Everywhere at April 29, 2018 07:47 AM (zTtjJ)

82 72. I don't dispute that it's rank tyranny. I was attempting to articulate the legal reasoning used to arrive at the result. It's a fig leaf, of course, but it helps those responsible to live with what they've done.

Posted by: Your Decidedly Devious Uncle Palpatine at April 29, 2018 07:47 AM (fM807)

83 They're still in a hold for unspecified reasons, but the webcast has some beautiful views of the rocket and capsule.

Posted by: rickl at April 29, 2018 07:47 AM (sdi6R)

84 UN Human rights council http://www.ohchr.org/EN/HRBodies/HRC/Pages /CurrentMembers.aspx Not all but uncluded Angola Cuba Congo Egypt Iraq Saudi Arabia Pakistan South Africa UAE

Posted by: Skip at April 29, 2018 07:47 AM (aC6Sd)

85 Need a snappy anglicization of 'Aktion T4.'

Posted by: Mr. Peebles at April 29, 2018 07:48 AM (oVJmc)

86 78 There has been great concern about Social Security going bankrupt. The solution is obvious. Euthanize people when they turn 65. Elites excepted, of course. Posted by: Anonosaurus Wrecks, Tyrannosaur Wrangler at April 29, 2018 12:46 PM (+y/Ru) I think you are on to something here. Just like if you go to work for a governmental or non-profit agency, you can get your college loans forgiven over time, we could have a program where if you work for the government, you get to avoid the extermination at 65 years old rule. I like it.

Posted by: SteveOReno at April 29, 2018 07:49 AM (2sCft)

87 For all its faults, obamacare instituted a more accountable environment for hospitals and providers. before they could perform the same procedure ad infinitum if first time a failure, now they will not get paid if it does not work, have to provide reasons, and get on some crap list. same with diagnostic procedures, all of a sudden one does not need as many ct scans, an x-ray is just as good.

Posted by: runner at April 29, 2018 07:49 AM (bUjCl)

88 If some catastrophe happened to England, doesn't matter what, I would love to hear their pleas for help answered with "Let the NHS, judges and Parliment get you out of it. The US has lost enough blood helping you." They can stick their 'closest ally' mantra up their British ass.

Posted by: JTB at April 29, 2018 07:50 AM (V+03K)

89 I cannot fathom the mindset of those Brit bureaucrats. How would they feel if their situations were reversed with poor Alfie's parents and it was their child who was being killed because rules? Is empathy dead in Formerly Great Britain?

Posted by: BackwardsBoy likes lobster [/i][/s][/b] at April 29, 2018 07:51 AM (GdWl+)

90 >>>Convention on the Rights of Children, Britain is obligated to have the state as the guarantor of the child's welfare, not the parents. "We will protect your rights, by killing you if we decide that's what's best". That's some fine Orwellian newspeak. I guess they don't consider life an inalienable right. And as for the "treaty" bullshit to circumvent the legal process, Democrats often try that here, but thankfully they haven't had much success. We often ignore politics until it's too late. The British public was really asleep at the wheel when they allowed this to take place.

Posted by: Steve and Cold Bear at April 29, 2018 07:52 AM (/qEW2)

91 James Garner in The Americanization of Emily: I just watched that clip. Watching it didn't really add anything, because I'd already read it in James Garner's voice.

Posted by: Bandersnatch at April 29, 2018 07:53 AM (fuK7c)

92 90. Yep. That convention effectively allows the State to act in loco parentis. It's an absolute subversion of the family.

Posted by: Your Decidedly Devious Uncle Palpatine at April 29, 2018 07:53 AM (fM807)

93 Merseyside Police @MerseyPolice We'd like to pass on our sincere thoughts and condolences to Tom, Kate and their families for their sad loss following the death of their son Alfie Evans. We also pass our thoughts to those at the hospital who supported the family in caring for Alfie. May Alfie rest peacefully. Good golly, Miss Molly! Orwell's Newspeak wasn't this dishonest.

Posted by: Anonosaurus Wrecks, Tyrannosaur Wrangler at April 29, 2018 07:54 AM (+y/Ru)

94 Yep. That convention effectively allows the State to act in loco parentis. It's an absolute subversion of the family. Posted by: Your Decidedly Devious Uncle Palpat once that starts....

Posted by: runner at April 29, 2018 07:55 AM (bUjCl)

95 I had a doctor's office tell me that I couldn't pay cash for a procedure that cost $1k. They insisted it would be insurance fraud since I had insurance, and not filing was illegal. The amount they could bill insurance? $3500 Posted by: Moron Robbie - I choose to live my life as a black woman at April 29, 2018 12:32 PM (VgKNm) I'm reasonably sure the doctor's office is full of shit.

Posted by: Insomniac at April 29, 2018 07:55 AM (NWiLs)

96 A fascinating aspect of the apologists for the judicial murder of a child was the claim that it was 'just' the hospital and the court system making this happen, and thus *not* "the government" doing this. It was a stunning display of either delusion or deception.

Posted by: Polliwog the 'Ette at April 29, 2018 07:55 AM (phT8I)

97 I have had first-hand experience in situations where a child and family are in an end-of-life situation. From what I've read of Alfie's situation (which may be less than complete) the doctors handled it poorly. I suspect that stems from the role of an NHS doctor in England as a state employee. If the doctors have primary fealty to the state rather than to the individual patient, the notion of working with families is turned adversarial. I have been in situations where my skills, capabilities and resources were inadequate to sustain a baby's life. At no time ever would I have hindered or obstructed a family's quest for other opinions, other treatment options or other venues to seek care. I'm not sure how far we are from an NHS-style system here. I do know that not all doctors in my field share my philosophy. Some will brook no questioning of their authority. If individual autocratic mindset is coupled with government mandate, we could see it here in very short order. The attitude might be stated thusly- "I cannot be wrong, and the government says so, so there!!"

Posted by: [/i][/b][/s][/u]Muldoon at April 29, 2018 07:55 AM (mvenn)

98 85 Need a snappy anglicization of 'Aktion T4.' Posted by: Mr. Peebles at April 29, 2018 12:48 PM (oVJmc) 4 Tiergarden Street Deed Best I can come up with without any knowledge of German.

Posted by: Surfperch at April 29, 2018 07:55 AM (zTtjJ)

99 That is one strange looking rocket and capsule!

Posted by: Spun and Murky at April 29, 2018 07:56 AM (4DCSq)

100 Over there, over there Send the word, send the word over there That the Yanks are coming The Yanks are coming The drums rum-tumming Everywhere So prepare, say a prayer Send the word, send the word to beware We'll be over, we're coming over And we won't come back till it's over Over there

Posted by: Bertram Cabot, Jr. at April 29, 2018 07:57 AM (IqV8l)

101 One thing we should enact is medical procedures being priced so their can be comparative shopping. As it is now, they first determine how much you can pay before billing you (and your insurance company). Price first, then means of paying second.

Posted by: Puddin Head at April 29, 2018 07:57 AM (vV/gB)

102 Looks like they're finally ready to go.

Posted by: rickl at April 29, 2018 07:57 AM (sdi6R)

103 I cannot fathom the mindset of those Brit bureaucrats. How would they feel if their situations were reversed with poor Alfie's parents and it was their child who was being killed because rules?

---

Ah, but you see, it's not.  And they probably don't worry about that because they're bureaucrats and suspect that they will be allowed more special concessions.

It's like the Soviets who were chauffeured around in limos in a nation where there wasn't supposed to be distinct classes of wealth (commissars?).

Posted by: Moron Robbie - I choose to live my life as a black woman. [/i] [/b] at April 29, 2018 07:58 AM (tve+u)

104 Posted by: BackwardsBoy likes lobster at April 29, 2018 12:51 PM (GdWl+) Alex the Chick cursed (the old meaning) them in the sweetest tone possible, wishing upon them (and on Twitter they may even have seen it) the *exact* care and caring they had shown Alfie for themselves and their loved ones in time of need.

Posted by: Polliwog the 'Ette at April 29, 2018 07:58 AM (phT8I)

105 >>> if you can't imagine something similar coming to America, you ain't paying attention.<<<<

The judge in the Shiavo (sp?) case didn't just rule that the next time the woman had a medical crisis the docs should follow her husband's wishes and let nature take its course, no -- he ruled that she should be denied food and water and made dead.
And she was.
And anyone who objected was labeled a religious nut in the media.

It is already here.

Posted by: the guy that moves pianos for a living at April 29, 2018 07:59 AM (3DZIZ)

106 Western Civilization is now run by demons wearing skin suits.

Posted by: Monk at April 29, 2018 07:59 AM (GoNER)

107 There is no legal import to the Hippocratic Oath. Never has been as far as I know. It doesn't make you a moral or ethical person any more than taking an oath as an elected official or law enforcement officer.

Posted by: Insomniac at April 29, 2018 07:59 AM (NWiLs)

108 Reading Patrick O'Brien's series he does use the period opinion in characters that the unwashed population would be better not there or that depopulation would be better .

Posted by: Skip at April 29, 2018 08:00 AM (aC6Sd)

109
I'm reasonably sure the doctor's office is full of shit.

Posted by: Insomniac at April 29, 2018 12:55 PM (NWiLs)

---

That's remarkably similar to what I told them.

Posted by: Moron Robbie - I choose to live my life as a black woman. [/i] [/b] at April 29, 2018 08:00 AM (tve+u)

110 The judge in the Shiavo (sp?) case didn't just rule that the next time the woman had a medical crisis the docs should follow her husband's wishes and let nature take its course, no -- he ruled that she should be denied food and water and made dead.
And she was.
And anyone who objected was labeled a religious nut in the media.

It is already here.

Posted by: the guy that moves pianos for a living at April 29, 2018 12:59 PM (3DZIZ)

---

Good point.

Posted by: Moron Robbie - I choose to live my life as a black woman. [/i] [/b] at April 29, 2018 08:00 AM (tve+u)

111 101 One thing we should enact is medical procedures being priced so their can be comparative shopping. As it is now, they first determine how much you can pay before billing you (and your insurance company). Price first, then means of paying second. Posted by: Puddin Head at April 29, 2018 12:57 PM (vV/gB) To do that, you'd have to eliminate the health insurance industry as well as government health care programs, since they are the bodies that effectively set the pricing.

Posted by: Insomniac at April 29, 2018 08:01 AM (NWiLs)

112 107 There is no legal import to the Hippocratic Oath. Never has been as far as I know. It doesn't make you a moral or ethical person any more than taking an oath as an elected official or law enforcement officer. Posted by: Insomniac at April 29, 2018 12:59 PM (NWiLs) That's comforting. Why even take the oath?

Posted by: Monk at April 29, 2018 08:01 AM (GoNER)

113 71 As NHS continues to run out of money, look for these policies to expand and spread..... Posted by: Mr. Peebles at April 29, 2018 12:43 PM (oVJmc) ----------------------------- And yet they (and we) can find plenty of money to change George into Georgette and to sustain the charade over a lifetime. Priorities!

Posted by: Margarita DeVille at April 29, 2018 08:01 AM (0jtPF)

114 tomorrow the state will decide to raise your child not in your faith, religion is opium of the people after all, and opium is bad for the children, but in the faith of socialism; how many times do we have to see this movie ?

Posted by: runner at April 29, 2018 08:01 AM (bUjCl)

115 112 107 There is no legal import to the Hippocratic Oath. Never has been as far as I know. It doesn't make you a moral or ethical person any more than taking an oath as an elected official or law enforcement officer. Posted by: Insomniac at April 29, 2018 12:59 PM (NWiLs) That's comforting. Why even take the oath? Posted by: Monk at April 29, 2018 01:01 PM (GoNER) Idealism of a past era.

Posted by: Insomniac at April 29, 2018 08:02 AM (NWiLs)

116 @MerseyPolice
We'd like to pass on our sincere thoughts and condolences to Tom, Kate and their families for their sad loss following the death of their son Alfie Evans.

---

The comparisons write themselves.

Posted by: Moron Robbie - I choose to live my life as a black woman. [/i] [/b] at April 29, 2018 08:02 AM (tve+u)

117 Any mass protests in the UK over this? Posted by: steevy at April 29, 2018 12:27 PM (LiyEm) That's what I want to know. Who is standing up today, over there? Are they all cowards?

Posted by: BurtTC at April 29, 2018 08:02 AM (Pz4pT)

118 But as Leftism has overtaken Europe its not a stretch that it can or won't happen here. Imagine a couple of President Hillary or Kamela's

Posted by: Skip at April 29, 2018 08:02 AM (aC6Sd)

119 Posted by: Muldoon at April 29, 2018 12:55 PM (mvenn) What I was seeing claimed there had never been a diagnosis. Essentially, he was "terminal" because someone at the hospital got tired of looking at him and his parents. Once they stopped nutrition and liquid it became a self-fulfilling prophesy since *everyone* is terminal with no food or water.

Posted by: Polliwog the 'Ette at April 29, 2018 08:02 AM (phT8I)

120 The government 'doing what's best for you' inevitably winds up in the government doing what's best for itself, since, of course, they're looking out for 'what's best for you.'

Posted by: Mr. Peebles at April 29, 2018 08:03 AM (oVJmc)

121 At no time ever would I have hindered or obstructed a family's quest for other opinions, other treatment options or other venues to seek care. = Yes. That is what so surreal about the whole case.

Posted by: runner at April 29, 2018 08:03 AM (bUjCl)

122 That convention effectively allows the State to act in loco parentis Auschwitzis.

Posted by: Anonosaurus Wrecks, Tyrannosaur Wrangler at April 29, 2018 08:04 AM (+y/Ru)

123 >>>97 I have been in situations where my skills, capabilities and resources were inadequate to sustain a baby's life. At no time ever would I have hindered or obstructed a family's quest for other opinions, other treatment options or other venues to seek care. Posted by: Muldoon at April 29, 2018 12:55 PM (mvenn) Thank you for that.

Posted by: m at April 29, 2018 08:04 AM (0bRDi)

124 I'm not gonna say what that craft looks like, ...but it's kinda girthy.

Posted by: Spun and Murky at April 29, 2018 08:05 AM (4DCSq)

125 First one is hard. By the time you get to counting on the second hand it's easy peasy.(1) (1) Literally the history of mankind.

Posted by: Headless Body of Agnew at April 29, 2018 08:05 AM (e1mEI)

126 >>>"The history of evil in the 20th century is oddly impersonal. It's as if no one really wants to do it, and so much of the true evil is carried out by bureaucrats."<<<<

I read an article one time that claimed that the Ringwraiths were Tolkien's commentary on bureaucrats. The Nazgul had surrendered their individuality, even to the point of losing their faces, to partake of Sauron's power. They derived their own strength form enforcing his will and their greatest power was instilling fear.

Posted by: the guy that moves pianos for a living at April 29, 2018 08:06 AM (3DZIZ)

127 Merseyside Police @MerseyPolice We'd like to pass on our sincere thoughts and condolences to Tom, Kate and their families for their sad loss following the death of their son Alfie Evans. We also pass our thoughts to those at the hospital who supported the family in caring for Alfie. May Alfie rest peacefully. Crocodile tears.

Posted by: Surfperch at April 29, 2018 08:06 AM (zTtjJ)

128 Any mass protests in the UK over this? Posted by: steevy at April 29, 2018 12:27 PM (LiyEm) The Limey cops are carefully monitoring for that and will take care of any doubleplus ungood think.

Posted by: TheQuietMan at April 29, 2018 08:07 AM (SiINZ)

129 Imagine all the money we can save on special needs kids and kids with cancer if all we have to do is quit feeding them for medical reasons.

Posted by: Moron Robbie - I choose to live my life as a black woman. [/i] [/b] at April 29, 2018 08:07 AM (tve+u)

130 126 >>>"The history of evil in the 20th century is oddly impersonal. It's as if no one really wants to do it, and so much of the true evil is carried out by bureaucrats."<<<< ------------------------------ The point of bureaucrats is to create the impression no one is in charge and nothing can be changed. It seems to work remarkably well at those goals. Maybe we should give them a raise?

Posted by: Puddin Head at April 29, 2018 08:08 AM (vV/gB)

131 Are they all cowards? Posted by: BurtTC at April 29, 2018 01:02 PM (Pz4pT) Maybe. But the decent people of Britain are A) disarmed and B) under threat of arrest if they so much as publicly talk about Alfie. That's a bad spot to be in, even for a man of conviction.

Posted by: Insomniac at April 29, 2018 08:08 AM (NWiLs)

132 what about parents who do the opposite, because of religious beliefs prevent needed care. what then ? difficult question.

Posted by: runner at April 29, 2018 08:08 AM (bUjCl)

133 Merseyside Police @MerseyPolice We'd like to pass on our sincere thoughts and condolences to Tom, Kate and their families for their sad loss following the death of their son Alfie Evans. We also pass our thoughts to those at the hospital who supported the family in caring for Alfie. May Alfie rest peacefully. They f-ing stopped anyone from helping the child live. They along with the hospital staff and judges ought to be starved to death like they did to Alfie

Posted by: TheQuietMan at April 29, 2018 08:08 AM (SiINZ)

134 @129: Don't think for a moment that some government bureaucrat hasn't run those numbers....

Posted by: WarEagle82 at April 29, 2018 08:09 AM (xUc0d)

135 I'm sure if Alfie Evans name was Muhammed, heaven and earth would have been moved to save him.

Posted by: BeckoningChasm at April 29, 2018 12:37 PM (l9m7l)


And that is surely a "no shit, Sherlock" moment.

Posted by: Alberta Oil Peon at April 29, 2018 08:09 AM (WFV7d)

136 127 Merseyside Police @MerseyPolice We'd like to pass on our sincere thoughts and condolences to Tom, Kate and their families for their sad loss following the death of their son Alfie Evans. We also pass our thoughts to those at the hospital who supported the family in caring for Alfie. May Alfie rest peacefully. Crocodile tears. Posted by: Surfperch at April 29, 2018 01:06 PM (zTtjJ) Yeah. They stood guard outside the hospital to make sure the kid was starved to death. Fuck them straight to hell.

Posted by: Insomniac at April 29, 2018 08:09 AM (NWiLs)

137 129 Imagine all the money we can save on special needs kids and kids with cancer if all we have to do is quit feeding them for medical reasons. ------------------ We should try this on Venezuela first. Oh, they already are.

Posted by: Puddin Head at April 29, 2018 08:09 AM (vV/gB)

138 The parents should have said they convert to Islam and were changing his name to Mohammed Evans. The NHS would have moved Mecca and Earth to keep him alive.

Posted by: TheQuietMan at April 29, 2018 08:10 AM (SiINZ)

139 Think of the bobbies happily cashing their paychecks for a job well done by preventing Alfie from getting care. They are all complicit.

Posted by: Regular joe at April 29, 2018 08:10 AM (7PllL)

140 Wasn't it the Eichmann trial where one of the witnesses broke down in tears after Eichmann's testimony, and when asked if he cried because Eichmann was such a monster replied that 'No, because Eichmann wasn't a monster, but just a man, and I could have been him in different circumstances'.

Posted by: Grump928(C) Snoozing Jeff Sessions is my Sarah Palin's uterus at April 29, 2018 08:10 AM (yQpMk)

141 Perversely, it occurs to me that if the United States invaded Great Britain and made them our colony, it would be the very best thing that could happen to them.

Posted by: Rusty Nail at April 29, 2018 08:10 AM (toi7g)

142 The point being, I guess, that we want to think these people to be inhuman monsters because it's easier to live with that idea than the idea that this is just what people can become.

Posted by: Grump928(C) Snoozing Jeff Sessions is my Sarah Palin's uterus at April 29, 2018 08:11 AM (yQpMk)

143 Posted by: runner at April 29, 2018 01:08 PM (bUjCl) That is what the law was originally billed as being for. 'The best *treatment* for the child is that they be made to die in the shortest amount of time possible' is a perversion. Especially in a nation that theoretically outlaws euthanasia.

Posted by: Polliwog the 'Ette at April 29, 2018 08:12 AM (phT8I)

144 Our priest at Mass this a.m. said a prayer for little Alfie. Hope springs eternal. RIP little fella.......

Posted by: Hairyback Guy at April 29, 2018 08:12 AM (EoRCO)

145 141. Perhaps. But we'd have to REMOVE KEBAB bigly. And, frankly, I don't know that Britain is worth the effort.

Posted by: Your Decidedly Devious Uncle Palpatine at April 29, 2018 08:12 AM (fM807)

146 141 Perversely, it occurs to me that if the United States invaded Great Britain and made them our colony, it would be the very best thing that could happen to them. Posted by: Rusty Nail at April 29, 2018 01:10 PM (toi7g) We have been seeking to expand into new international markets.

Posted by: Planned Parenthood at April 29, 2018 08:12 AM (NWiLs)

147 The Brits have been intoxicated with love for National Health for, I don't know how many generations now. They are born into it and and it is the only thing they know and understand. While most of us were appalled by the ghastly display they put on promoting their health care "for the children" at the Olympics, I'm pretty positive they, on the other hand, were preening with pride over it. I doubt they are very much upset, as a whole, over this one case.

Posted by: washrivergal at April 29, 2018 08:12 AM (tcwn1)

148 It's probably just bitchy and nothing else, but I plan to refer to the new prince as 'Prince Alfie'. I just keep getting these two stories confused in my little ol' brain, you see.

Posted by: Mama AJ at April 29, 2018 08:13 AM (mtfdF)

149 Also in the British news today, an older couple (in their early 60s) who used a surrogate to have a child, has had that child taken away from them. The "state" has determined they are too old to care for the child, so the government will instead.

Posted by: Rusty Nail at April 29, 2018 08:14 AM (toi7g)

150 That's like the SS apologizing to Anne Frank.

Posted by: Mr. Peebles at April 29, 2018 08:14 AM (oVJmc)

151 The process of diagnosing and treating serious conditions is much more complex than is being reported on in this case. There are all sorts of risk/benefit considerations, and yes, cost constraints. There are varying levels of certainty when trying to predict outcomes. The problem in this case, in my view, is the denial of parents' role in making those decisions (as many have pointed out). As a society, we struggle with notions of who pays, and for what? Medical expertise and diagnostic services are finite. State-funded medical treatment is by definition state-decided allocation of finite resources. But it is unthinkable that a family with voluntary financial backing, and voluntary offer of services by the Italians would be denied.

Posted by: [/i][/b][/s][/u]Muldoon at April 29, 2018 08:14 AM (mvenn)

152 141 Perversely, it occurs to me that if the United States invaded Great Britain and made them our colony, it would be the very best thing that could happen to them. Posted by: Rusty Nail at April 29, 2018 01:10 PM (toi7g) New census category, Hooligan-American.

Posted by: Headless Body of Agnew at April 29, 2018 08:15 AM (e1mEI)

153 That is what the law was originally billed as being for. 'The best *treatment* for the child is that they be made to die in the shortest amount of time possible' is a perversion. Especially in a nation that theoretically outlaws euthanasia. Posted by: Polliwog the 'Ette at April 29, 2018 01:12 PM (phT8I) ..euthanasia and capital punishment. humanitarians all around. BTW and as I typed that up , I answered my own question in my head - decision has to be made in the direction of life, not death. so if ,theoretically, parents refuse treatment, then the state may have the right to overrule.

Posted by: runner at April 29, 2018 08:15 AM (bUjCl)

154 The various studies of Nazi death squads after the war proved that normal, decent people, men and women, were capable of the the most unspeakable evil. The Soviets proved the same thing with their mass murder.

Posted by: WarEagle82 at April 29, 2018 08:15 AM (xUc0d)

155 12 Any mass protests in the UK over this? Posted by: steevy at April 29, 2018 12:27 PM (LiyEm) I searched news for terms such as 'protest in UK' and 'mass protest' and all I was able to find was that about 10,000 Londoners have signed up to protest Trump's visit to the UK in July. Nothing about Alfie. Really says something about the state of their nation.

Posted by: Surfperch at April 29, 2018 08:15 AM (zTtjJ)

156 Starving to death on NHS wards? https://bbc.in/2w2Z9rs

Posted by: Grump928(C) Snoozing Jeff Sessions is my Sarah Palin's uterus at April 29, 2018 08:16 AM (yQpMk)

157 It's hard not to wonder what zombie Orwell would make of what his nation has become. When withholding basics like food and water is "treatment" and the Liverpool Pathway was build as *support* for the elderly.....

Posted by: Polliwog the 'Ette at April 29, 2018 08:16 AM (phT8I)

158 >>I have been in situations where my skills, capabilities and resources were inadequate to sustain a baby's life. All the hugs and thanks for doing that and going back the next day.

Posted by: Mama AJ at April 29, 2018 08:16 AM (mtfdF)

159 Our priest at Mass this a.m. said a prayer for little Alfie. Hope springs eternal. RIP little fella....... Posted by: Hairyback Guy at April 29, 2018 01:12 PM (EoRCO) Our priest said at 3pm today, in Britain that about 10,000 people gathered along different parts of the coasts of England, Wales and Scotland and prayed the rosary and said prayers for their respective countries. I'm surprised the Limey cops didn't arrest them.

Posted by: TheQuietMan at April 29, 2018 08:16 AM (SiINZ)

160 Humanity hasn't evolved for millennia. At any time there will be a lot of people who would gleefully reintroduce totalitarianism at the drop of a hat, and they mainly gravitate towards politics and law.

Posted by: Steve and Cold Bear at April 29, 2018 08:17 AM (/qEW2)

161 154. Anyone is capable of anything. My corollary to Tom Reagan's Iron Law 'Nobody knows anybody. Not that well.'

Posted by: Your Decidedly Devious Uncle Palpatine at April 29, 2018 08:18 AM (fM807)

162 That's what I want to know. Who is standing up today, over there? Are they all cowards? Posted by: BurtTC at April 29, 2018 01:02 PM (Pz4pT) ======== Nowadays when people take a stand for what they believe, it's like that gay guy who immolated himself over climate change, or antifa hitting people with bikelocks, comedians making death threats and suicide bombers.

Posted by: Steve and Cold Bear at April 29, 2018 08:19 AM (/qEW2)

163 Apollo 13 is an incredible compelling story because it showed the lengths to which we are willing to save a life. Today, would the accountants get together and say "Our calculations indicate that any further expenditures for three astronauts who face incredible odds of survival is excessive considering they are going to die someday anyway."

Posted by: Adirondack Patriot at April 29, 2018 08:20 AM (arhmY)

164 This whole issue upsets me to the point where I can't read the post or the comments. In Notsogreat Britain, The State has completely taken away parents' rights. I will never support single payer healthcare. Liberalism is NOT about taking care of people, it is about controlling people. Soft socialism at work.

Posted by: nerdygirl at April 29, 2018 08:20 AM (+lVUW)

165 would you believe, I watched Downfall last night. some 'rons were talking about it on the movie thread, wanted to finally see the movie that launched a thousand memes.

Posted by: runner at April 29, 2018 08:20 AM (bUjCl)

166 I am not sure what happened it's the product of single payer/NHS.

Posted by: runner at April 29, 2018 08:22 AM (bUjCl)

167 161 154. Anyone is capable of anything. My corollary to Tom Reagan's Iron Law 'Nobody knows anybody. Not that well.' Posted by: Your Decidedly Devious Uncle Palpatine at April 29, 2018 01:18 PM (fM807) +++ I've been watching some episodes of Dateline on the YouTube. This is so very true. Normal looking people, with families.

Posted by: washrivergal at April 29, 2018 08:23 AM (tcwn1)

168 Nihilistic Harm Service

Posted by: Surfperch at April 29, 2018 08:23 AM (zTtjJ)

169 124 I'm not gonna say what that craft looks like, ...but it's kinda girthy. Posted by: Spun and Murky at April 29, 2018 01:05 PM (4DCSq) Yes, it does bear a resemblance to the rocket at the end of "Austin Powers". Willie!

Posted by: rickl at April 29, 2018 08:23 AM (sdi6R)

170 164 This whole issue upsets me to the point where I can't read the post or the comments. In Notsogreat Britain, The State has completely taken away parents' rights. I will never support single payer healthcare. Liberalism is NOT about taking care of people, it is about controlling people. Soft socialism at work. Posted by: nerdygirl at April 29, 2018 01:20 PM (+lVUW) One of the hardest pills to swallow is learning that once you have children in America and I guess UK, you have no parental rights. It's an illusion. You only have the right to parent the way the state sees fit. That's it.

Posted by: Monk at April 29, 2018 08:23 AM (GoNER)

171 While a prayers for Alfie are absolutely beautiful, the people who truly need our prayers are the secular humanists who decided his death was the best option.

Posted by: Adirondack Patriot at April 29, 2018 08:24 AM (arhmY)

172 bit.ly/deepstatesucks ===== FBI Never Investigated Abedin/Clinton Laptop Emails In October 2016| The Last Refuge

Posted by: JoshBARROquette at April 29, 2018 08:24 AM (y3aQB)

173 All this is happening because the "control" people are afraid that others will want to get alternate care. They don't care about this baby, they care about maintaining their authority to make all decisions. This is what liberals and democrats want for us.

Posted by: nerdygirl at April 29, 2018 08:25 AM (+lVUW)

174 At least little Alfie had access to the healthcare system, as the left likes to say. Didn't have to pay anything out of pocket either. What a wonderful system.

Kathleen Sebelius:  Some will live.  Some will die.

I'm guessing it won't be the dedicated public servants who put the system together on behalf of the people.

Posted by: Ripley at April 29, 2018 08:25 AM (MxEKc)

175 Yes, it's definitely on the continuum. And the "professionals, the 'dedicated' doctors and nurses who devote their lives to healing", argument is nauseating. As someone who spent decades in healthcare, I am here to say we are not so fricking special, we are no more or less ethical than any other group (and the life or death decision was made by a judge, a legal beagle, btw). There are wonderful doctors, nurses, and therapists and there are mediocre and bad ones. ALL of us bring our own views, our own worries, and our own prejudices and feelings with us when we walk into the hospital...just like any other group of people. Among us are conservatives, liberals, right to life advocates, crazy animal rights extremists who believe their kitties or the "evil" farmers' pigs are just as important as people. We run the gamut from fastidious to careless and corner cutting. And don't get me started on the priorities of administration which is cost containment (but not for admin perks) and putting a pretty veneer on the hospital's work (edifice complex) when they should be plowing the money into more staff and higher quality professionals.

Posted by: CN at April 29, 2018 08:26 AM (5gaNQ)

176 Wasn't it the Eichmann trial where one of the witnesses broke down in tears after Eichmann's testimony, and when asked if he cried because Eichmann was such a monster replied that 'No, because Eichmann wasn't a monster, but just a man, and I could have been him in different circumstances'.

Posted by: Grump928(C) Snoozing Jeff Sessions is my Sarah Palin's uterus at April 29, 2018 01:10 PM (yQpMk)

---

Thanks for that.  It made me shudder a little inside because I know it's true.

Posted by: Moron Robbie - I choose to live my life as a black woman. [/i] [/b] at April 29, 2018 08:26 AM (tve+u)

177 Posted by: Monk at April 29, 2018 01:23 PM (GoNER) Did you notice your tag says 'goner'?

Posted by: Surfperch at April 29, 2018 08:26 AM (zTtjJ)

178 The left wing are all like the Edward G Robinson character in Moses,sneering "Where's your God now?"

Posted by: steevy at April 29, 2018 08:27 AM (LiyEm)

179 One of the things that astonished me about this case is that Alfie's parents are only 20 and 21 years old. Such a tremendous fight for a couple who are really just kids themselves. Thus is really not uncommon in the UK. Usually it's senior citizens that get murdered this way. I remember reading a story in the Daily Mail by a woman who had taken her mother in for treatment for the flu. Her mom went steadily downhill and was nearly dead. Then the woman learned that hospital staff were not allowed to give the mom food or water. She started bringing in food and water and taking care of her mom herself. After a week the mom was able to go home. Anyone on the Liverpool Care Path is essentially under a death sentence.

Posted by: Nunya Bizness at April 29, 2018 08:27 AM (ktwV6)

180 And yeah, Alfie = single payer.  I can't think of many better examples.

Posted by: Moron Robbie - I choose to live my life as a black woman. [/i] [/b] at April 29, 2018 08:27 AM (tve+u)

181 I am not so sure a Islamic family would be treated differently. To me Islam is not any more forgiving and everything seems (to me) to be put into Allah's will.

Posted by: Skip at April 29, 2018 08:27 AM (aC6Sd)

182 174: I'd rather pay some money, even a lot of money, to get care that works instead of antiquated modalities that are cheap, AND I want to decide!

Posted by: CN at April 29, 2018 08:28 AM (5gaNQ)

183 172 bit.ly/deepstatesucks ===== FBI Never Investigated Abedin/Clinton Laptop Emails In October 2016| The Last Refuge Posted by: JoshBARROquette at April 29, 2018 01:24 PM (y3aQB) The FBI is part of the trafficking for money problem. So of course they didn't investigate.

Posted by: Monk at April 29, 2018 08:28 AM (GoNER)

184 Thus is really not uncommon in the UK. Usually it's senior citizens that get murdered this way. I remember reading a story in the Daily Mail by a woman who had taken her mother in for treatment for the flu. Her mom went steadily downhill and was nearly dead. Then the woman learned that hospital staff were not allowed to give the mom food or water. She started bringing in food and water and taking care of her mom herself. After a week the mom was able to go home. Anyone on the Liverpool Care Path is essentially under a death sentence.

Posted by: Nunya Bizness at April 29, 2018 01:27 PM (ktwV6)

---

I remember being shocked at how many people just nodded and smiled when Obama openly and very publicly admitted that he and his just wanted to just give sick old people an aspirin and let them die.

Posted by: Moron Robbie - I choose to live my life as a black woman. [/i] [/b] at April 29, 2018 08:29 AM (tve+u)

185 Dox his doctors, who hide behind anonymity from the public.  In the meantime here's a thought experiement.  If the new royal baby were to suffer the same condition, would the outcome be the same?  Bueller, anyone?

Posted by: Born Free at April 29, 2018 08:29 AM (KKq8w)

186 At least little Alfie had access to the healthcare system, as the left likes to say. Didn't have to pay anything out of pocket either. Except for the 20% VAT they pay day in and day out. The concept of 'free' healthcare is a ridiculous illusion.

Posted by: Mr. Peebles at April 29, 2018 08:29 AM (oVJmc)

187 Evil triumphs when good men do nothing. And the problem is the western world is full of good men who are quite happy doing nothing. Talk, rant, write, moan, complain. But never DOING anything. And so evil gains while good retreats.

Posted by: Mr Black at April 29, 2018 08:30 AM (4Szfi)

188 185: Dox that screwball judge

Posted by: CN at April 29, 2018 08:31 AM (5gaNQ)

189 177 Posted by: Monk at April 29, 2018 01:23 PM (GoNER) Did you notice your tag says 'goner'? Posted by: Surfperch at April 29, 2018 01:26 PM (zTtjJ) 2nd time this has happened. It's like the Grim Reaper has me targeted for a visit soon.

Posted by: Monk at April 29, 2018 08:32 AM (GoNER)

190 163 Apollo 13 is an incredible compelling story because it showed the lengths to which we are willing to save a life. Today, would the accountants get together and say "Our calculations indicate that any further expenditures for three astronauts who face incredible odds of survival is excessive considering they are going to die someday anyway." Posted by: Adirondack Patriot at April 29, 2018 01:20 PM (arhmY) In 2003 when the Space Shuttle Columbia launched on what would turn out to be its final flight, ground cameras saw a chunk of foam impact the left wing. That was only noticed after the craft was in orbit. There was some talk among engineers about using high-resolution spy satellites to image the Shuttle to check for damage, but that was never done. There wasn't really anything they could do even if they had seen the hole in the wing.

Posted by: rickl at April 29, 2018 08:32 AM (sdi6R)

191 2nd time this has happened. It's like the Grim Reaper has me targeted for a visit soon. Posted by: Monk at April 29, 2018 01:32 PM (GoNER) Game of Nerves

Posted by: runner at April 29, 2018 08:33 AM (bUjCl)

192 And rickl, thanks for posting heads ups for these launches. I'd probably totally miss them otherwise. Even though they are starting to seem pretty routine! Ho hum...

Posted by: Spun and Murky at April 29, 2018 08:34 AM (4DCSq)

193 167 161 154. Anyone is capable of anything. My corollary to Tom Reagan's Iron Law 'Nobody knows anybody. Not that well.' Posted by: Your Decidedly Devious Uncle Palpatine at April 29, 2018 01:18 PM (fM807) +++ I've been watching some episodes of Dateline on the YouTube. This is so very true. Normal looking people, with families. Posted by: washrivergal at April 29, 2018 01:23 PM (tcwn1) Dennis Rader, a/k/a the BTK Killer. Husband, father, church council member and Boy Scout troop leader. Nobody you'd look at twice. Killed ten people that we know of.

Posted by: Insomniac at April 29, 2018 08:35 AM (NWiLs)

194 Suck it Reaper.

Posted by: Monk at April 29, 2018 08:35 AM (cBvzT)

195 140 Wasn't it the Eichmann trial where one of the witnesses broke down in tears after Eichmann's testimony, and when asked if he cried because Eichmann was such a monster replied that 'No, because Eichmann wasn't a monster, but just a man, and I could have been him in different circumstances'. Posted by: Grump928(C) Snoozing Jeff Sessions is my Sarah Palin's uterus at April 29, 2018 01:10 PM (yQpMk) ----------------------- I have similar thoughts aboutmyself when I read about the crowd calling for Barabus to be freed.

Posted by: Blake at April 29, 2018 08:36 AM (WEBkv)

196 Alfie Evans was unworthy of life.

Posted by: Nazinal Health System at April 29, 2018 08:37 AM (hMwEB)

197 I think serial killers are different. They're very atypical psychologically speaking, but passing as normal. Even if most people are callous pricks who'd let the machinery of the state whack someone, I'm not sure most have what it takes to be BTK, to get their own hands very dirty.

Posted by: Bear with Assymetrical Balls at April 29, 2018 08:38 AM (H5knJ)

198 190: Couldn't do anything to save the orbiter. Might have been able to save the crew. Atlantis (iirc) was in the OPF and could have been quickly turned around for a rescue mission. The CAIB looked into this scenario as well as several others. But ultimately, they are all might have beens.

Posted by: Mrs. Peel at April 29, 2018 08:39 AM (JPRju)

199 I'm reasonably sure that there were concentration camp guards who went home at night to a wife and kids, kissed them hello, played ball with their son, sat down and said grace over dinner, and played family card games in the parlor afterward.

Posted by: Insomniac at April 29, 2018 08:39 AM (NWiLs)

200 Come on, Alfie had it coming

Posted by: Ignoramus at April 29, 2018 08:39 AM (ceJZq)

201 197 I think serial killers are different. They're very atypical psychologically speaking, but passing as normal. Even if most people are callous pricks who'd let the machinery of the state whack someone, I'm not sure most have what it takes to be BTK, to get their own hands very dirty. Posted by: Bear with Assymetrical Balls at April 29, 2018 01:38 PM (H5knJ) They are atypical, but the point is they don't walk around looking like monsters. Rader was a regular shlub from all outward appearances.

Posted by: Insomniac at April 29, 2018 08:41 AM (NWiLs)

202 It is already happening here.  If parents attempt a 2nd opinion, a hospital can apply for guardianship.  No, parents can't get advice from that 'crazy person' -- and then the parents are on the hook to demonstrate that the 2nd opinion is perfectly well qualified.

Posted by: mustbequantum at April 29, 2018 08:41 AM (MIKMs)

203 Right, but were most concentration camp guards running the showers?

Posted by: Bear with Assymetrical Balls at April 29, 2018 08:41 AM (H5knJ)

204 That's why Patton had all the residents of the neighboring town forced to tour the death camp his Third Army liberated

Posted by: Ignoramus at April 29, 2018 08:41 AM (ceJZq)

205 Alfie Evans' death does not rise to the level of genocide, but it is on the continuum. Unless you're Alfie.

Posted by: Grump928(C) Snoozing Jeff Sessions is my Sarah Palin's uterus at April 29, 2018 08:42 AM (yQpMk)

206 203 Right, but were most concentration camp guards running the showers? Posted by: Bear with Assymetrical Balls at April 29, 2018 01:41 PM (H5knJ) Maybe not, but many of them probably went home to normal lives too, as if they'd just gotten off another shift at the bottling plant.

Posted by: Insomniac at April 29, 2018 08:42 AM (NWiLs)

207 199. Yep. Anyone recall the rationale for the use of gas in the Shoah? It was for humanitarian reasons. The holocaust by bullet they'd been doing in the East was traumatic for many of the men involved.

Posted by: Your Decidedly Devious Uncle Palpatine at April 29, 2018 08:43 AM (fM807)

208 198 190: Couldn't do anything to save the orbiter. Might have been able to save the crew. Atlantis (iirc) was in the OPF and could have been quickly turned around for a rescue mission. The CAIB looked into this scenario as well as several others. But ultimately, they are all might have beens. Posted by: Mrs. Peel at April 29, 2018 01:39 PM (JPRju) You're right. I didn't want to make my comment overly long and complex.

Posted by: rickl at April 29, 2018 08:43 AM (sdi6R)

209 199: Gas was cheaper too

Posted by: CN at April 29, 2018 08:44 AM (5gaNQ)

210 Alternate post title: Good Men Are Doing A Whole Lotta Nothing Lately

Posted by: Soothsayer -- Fake Commenter at April 29, 2018 08:44 AM (OmYAr)

211 We truly are the worst living generations.

Posted by: Soothsayer -- Fake Commenter at April 29, 2018 08:45 AM (OmYAr)

212 WaPo has all of Michelle Wolfs greatest hits from last night except her abortion joke

Posted by: Ignoramus at April 29, 2018 08:45 AM (ceJZq)

213 OT: Just felt another quake storm.  4 in a row.  Between 2.5 and 3.0 on all of them.
I need to get out of this state.

Posted by: Rusty Nail at April 29, 2018 08:45 AM (toi7g)

214 207 199. Yep. Anyone recall the rationale for the use of gas in the Shoah? It was for humanitarian reasons. The holocaust by bullet they'd been doing in the East was traumatic for many of the men involved. Posted by: Your Decidedly Devious Uncle Palpatine at April 29, 2018 01:43 PM (fM807) Just to clarify, it was traumatic for the men who were *doing* the shooting.

Posted by: rickl at April 29, 2018 08:47 AM (sdi6R)

215 Also, these people are monsters. Those little boys (Charlie Gard, Alfie) might have had very little chance, but they deserved the freedom to take those chances. That is the problem with government paying for anything - the actuarial approach means collectivism which means seeing people as avatars of their demographics instead of individuals which means no freedom. I'm starting to really hate the left. I try to remind myself that they're people too, just misguided, but the horrors they perpetrate go well beyond misguided and straight to evil.

Posted by: Mrs. Peel at April 29, 2018 08:47 AM (JPRju)

216 OT Rohingya refugees in Bangladesh are demanding their own "right of return". https://tinyurl.com/ycbjvf65 They keep whining about how horrible and unjust Myanmar is. Why don't they just stay in Bangladesh with their fellow Muslims? Of course the UN has stuck its nose into it and you can guess which side they are on.

Posted by: Steve and Cold Bear at April 29, 2018 08:47 AM (/qEW2)

217 I'm starting to really hate the left. You're a little behind the curve, but we welcome you into our midst.

Posted by: Insomniac at April 29, 2018 08:48 AM (NWiLs)

218 212: Abortion joke? Only a lib

Posted by: CN at April 29, 2018 08:48 AM (5gaNQ)

219 I don't disagree about the bottling plant mentality, except to the extent that it's easier to go along if you're not pulling the trigger. We have all manner of inhumane laws right here at home and sleep like babies. But most people can only do that because they have the machinery of the state between them and evil outcomes. Plenty here think abortion is murder, but don't shoot abortionists. If there was a law requiring everyone to volunteer for a weekly shift at the clinic though, I don't think compliance would be the result.

Posted by: Bear with Assymetrical Balls at April 29, 2018 08:49 AM (H5knJ)

220 The killing of Alfie Evans is a social Rorschach test, giving us a window into who is on our side and who isn't. 

Posted by: Huck Follywood, I'm your Huckleberry! at April 29, 2018 08:49 AM (ZyZPm)

221 Charlie Gard was the other child recently murdered by the NHS. I was trying to remember his name.

Posted by: Grump928(C) Snoozing Jeff Sessions is my Sarah Palin's uterus at April 29, 2018 08:49 AM (yQpMk)

222 So this Michelle Wolf joins the luminaries John Oliver,Samantha Bee,Stephen Colbert,Trevor Noah and that Seth Whatshisface

Posted by: steevy at April 29, 2018 08:49 AM (LiyEm)

223 214. Yes. I've seen interviews with a few of the men tasked with those mass killings. It took a heavy toll on them psychologically. They knew what they were doing, and went ahead and did it anyway. A lot of the time, they'd farm the work out to local police, just to 'spare' their own men.

Posted by: Your Decidedly Devious Uncle Palpatine at April 29, 2018 08:50 AM (fM807)

224 I've hated the left for years. The hatred grows more intense as time passes.

Posted by: Mr Aspirin Factory at April 29, 2018 08:50 AM (89T5c)

225 219 I don't disagree about the bottling plant mentality, except to the extent that it's easier to go along if you're not pulling the trigger. We have all manner of inhumane laws right here at home and sleep like babies. But most people can only do that because they have the machinery of the state between them and evil outcomes. I think that's right. It is easier. It's also easier to rationalize when something is lawful.

Posted by: Insomniac at April 29, 2018 08:50 AM (NWiLs)

226 WaPo has all of Michelle Wolfs greatest hits from last night except her abortion joke Posted by: Ignoramus at April 29, 2018 01:45 PM (ceJZq) The idiots at Yahoo just loved it. Thought she just killed it. And by it they must mean comedy

Posted by: TheQuietMan at April 29, 2018 08:51 AM (SiINZ)

227 https://preview.tinyurl.com/y96ptgsz It's already happening here. Remember Justina?

Posted by: Infidel at April 29, 2018 08:51 AM (a3OL0)

228 I'm going to bring this up again. My mom had late stage breast cancer at the age of 83. She received excellent care. She lived 10 more years cancer free. I shudder to think what would have happened if we had had a system like the UK's.

Posted by: nerdygirl at April 29, 2018 08:51 AM (+lVUW)

229 213 OT: Just felt another quake storm. 4 in a row. Between 2.5 and 3.0 on all of them. I need to get out of this state. Posted by: Rusty Nail at April 29, 2018 01:45 PM (toi7g) Or, learn to swim.

Posted by: Tool at April 29, 2018 08:52 AM (NL6wI)

230 I mentioned a few weeks ago that I recently (re)read the book of Judges, and it reminded me of today with the refrain, "In those days in Israel there was no king, and everyone did what was right in his own eyes."

Posted by: Mrs. Peel at April 29, 2018 08:52 AM (JPRju)

231 So, Michelle Wolf (whoever she is) told a bunch of "jokes" whose purpose was to be as offensive as possible about women?  Is that right?

I'm certain the feministas will be aggressively attacking her starting today, because otherwise they would all stand revealed as the worst sort of morally preening hypocrites.

Posted by: Huck Follywood, I'm your Huckleberry! at April 29, 2018 08:52 AM (ZyZPm)

232 Good Men Are Doing A Whole Lotta Nothing Lately Posted by: Soothsayer ------------- It's easy to do nothing.

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at April 29, 2018 08:52 AM (c/EDo)

233 Free healthcare has a cost: Alfie's life.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy likes lobster [/i][/s][/b] at April 29, 2018 08:53 AM (GdWl+)

234 "In those days in Israel there was no king, and everyone did what was right in his own eyes." Posted by: Mrs. Peel ----------- Biblical Libertarians?

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at April 29, 2018 08:53 AM (c/EDo)

235 Fvck Michelle Wolf. Some nobody who isn't worth bits and bytes expanded on her.

Posted by: runner at April 29, 2018 08:54 AM (bUjCl)

236 217 I'm starting to really hate the left. One of the five stages of regaining one's sanity. I forget the other four. Pretty sure one involves drinking, lots of drinking.

Posted by: REDACTED at April 29, 2018 08:54 AM (Ymy4N)

237 OT: Just felt another quake storm. 4 in a row. Between 2.5 and 3.0 on all of them. I need to get out of this state.
=====
The theory I always heard is that the smaller quakes release energy and avoids a big one.  Maybe there is a newer theory?

Posted by: mustbequantum at April 29, 2018 08:54 AM (MIKMs)

238 >>>WaPo has all of Michelle Wolfs greatest hits from last night except her abortion joke<<<

Sad comedienne wants you to know she has a sad pussy.

Posted by: Fritz at April 29, 2018 08:55 AM (J7XgW)

239 expEnded....&65856U^*

Posted by: runner at April 29, 2018 08:55 AM (bUjCl)

240 232 Good Men Are Doing A Whole Lotta Nothing Lately Posted by: Soothsayer It's OK, us bad guys are taking up the slack. We got your back

Posted by: REDACTED at April 29, 2018 08:55 AM (Ymy4N)

241 Earthquakes and fires on the Left, tornadoes in the middle and hurricanes in the east, pick your poison

Posted by: Skip at April 29, 2018 08:56 AM (aC6Sd)

242 231 So, Michelle Wolf (whoever she is) told a bunch of "jokes" whose purpose was to be as offensive as possible about women? Is that right? I'm certain the feministas will be aggressively attacking her starting today, because otherwise they would all stand revealed as the worst sort of morally preening hypocrites. Posted by: Huck Follywood, I'm your Huckleberry! at April 29, 2018 01:52 PM (ZyZPm) +++ No, because I'm sure this was considered high "comedy" at its best and not "hate" speech, at all.

Posted by: washrivergal at April 29, 2018 08:56 AM (tcwn1)

243 215: I posted some stuff on some of the FB pages, partially to counter the "medical people know best" garbage, and I was amazed by all the animal rights and pro-abort people (I looked at their profiles) who were justifying the hospital/judge's decision to withhold food, fluids and oxygen. They are very good at advocating for whales, chickens and pigs, however. I went grocery shopping this AM and saw several people with oxygen tanks, and one with a PICC line in the store. It would have been quite easy to let this child be cared for at home on oxygen and a feeding tube. The vent, if really needed, is a bit trickier, but it's done (in the US anyway). Europe is amazingly backwards

Posted by: CN at April 29, 2018 08:56 AM (5gaNQ)

244 I am not for invading England.

Posted by: runner at April 29, 2018 08:56 AM (bUjCl)

245 "In those days in Israel there was no king, and everyone did what was right in his own eyes."
---
God was supposed to be their king, but that wasn't good enough for them.

Posted by: Methos at April 29, 2018 08:56 AM (XQvuQ)

246 The cachet of the WHCD is over. It peaked when Obama timed the hit on bin Laden to be on the day of, but was denied because of weather in Pookestan.

Posted by: Ignoramus at April 29, 2018 08:57 AM (TcERp)

247 There has been great concern about Social Security going bankrupt. The solution is obvious. Euthanize people when they turn 65. Elites excepted, of course. What you save on SS yoy'll probably lose in death bennies to govt workers' families. Just saying.

Posted by: Richard McEnroe at April 29, 2018 08:57 AM (ABuva)

248 Also, these people are monsters. Those little boys (Charlie Gard, Alfie) might have had very little chance, but they deserved the freedom to take those chances. I don't wish to sound coldly clinical, but those chances might have produced some method or approach that could've helped another child in the future even if they had failed for Alfie. There's nothing wrong with taking a chance on life, unless your a Brit bureaucrat.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy likes lobster [/i][/s][/b] at April 29, 2018 08:58 AM (GdWl+)

249 Something came up recently here about Eisenhower insisting on camera crews documenting abuses at the Nazi camps.  He said something about 'they' will pretend it never happened.  I took his comment to mean our State Department, as they have been a hotbed of antisemitism for many years, but he could have been referring to the Germans.

Posted by: mustbequantum at April 29, 2018 08:59 AM (MIKMs)

250 But it is unthinkable that a family with voluntary financial backing, and voluntary offer of services by the Italians would be denied. Posted by: Muldoon at April 29, 2018 01:14 PM (mvenn) If Brits are allowed to escape the NHS, how will they learn to love it unconditionally?

Posted by: votermom pimping NEW Moron-authored books! at April 29, 2018 08:59 AM (hMwEB)

251 Euthanize people when they turn 65. Elites excepted, of course. every time I see those senile dinosaurs in the Senate, heading committees, making decisions. Average age is 80+ over there

Posted by: runner at April 29, 2018 08:59 AM (bUjCl)

252 243 215 animal rights activists don't love animals, or they'd have the puppy-killing PETA up on stakes. They just hate people.

Posted by: Richard McEnroe at April 29, 2018 08:59 AM (ABuva)

253 248: I agree. And if something good happened ( a la Aysha King) the Brits would have been shamed into allowing others to access the care

Posted by: CN at April 29, 2018 09:00 AM (5gaNQ)

254 237 The theory I always heard is that the smaller quakes release energy and avoids a big one. Maybe there is a newer theory? Posted by: mustbequantum at April 29, 2018 01:54 PM (MIKMs) Sometimes small quakes are foreshocks ahead of The Big One. There's a lot we still don't know about earthquakes.

Posted by: rickl at April 29, 2018 09:01 AM (sdi6R)

255 are there legitimate animal welfare organizations other than PETA ?

Posted by: runner at April 29, 2018 09:01 AM (bUjCl)

256 Hmmmm, I did some posts on this elsewhere, but it was a dormant thread. I didn't want to bother people with what I found out, bcz I was preoccupied with it. But maybe if I can find them I'll repost, since it is this thread's topic.

Posted by: prof disarray, gumdrop gorilla channel at April 29, 2018 09:01 AM (LSB34)

257 245: yep, exactly, and the same for many of us today. We think we know better than God. Remember Obama saying that he defined sin as being out of alignment with his values? 248: true - I'm sure we lost a lot of preemies before we figured out how to save them.

Posted by: Mrs. Peel at April 29, 2018 09:02 AM (JPRju)

258 249. Probably both. Remember - the first reports of what was happening were largely dismissed as it all seemed just impossible to believe. I'm still shocked by it today. To say nothing of what the Japanese did in China.

Posted by: Your Decidedly Devious Uncle Palpatine at April 29, 2018 09:02 AM (fM807)

259 Europe is amazingly backwards
=====

One of our own 'ettes had the misfortune to fall ill in Italy, and no linens, no food or water, no hospital gowns:  nothing.  I think she was laid up for a week or so.  Nightmarish.

Posted by: mustbequantum at April 29, 2018 09:03 AM (MIKMs)

260 Not to make light of it, but is the UK now like the movie Brazil?

Posted by: Soothsayer -- Fake Commenter at April 29, 2018 09:03 AM (OmYAr)

261 Nood

Posted by: Your Decidedly Devious Uncle Palpatine at April 29, 2018 09:03 AM (fM807)

262 I'm convinced England is done for, just waiting for the temperature timer to say when its done.

Posted by: Skip at April 29, 2018 09:04 AM (aC6Sd)

263 Probably both. Remember - the first reports of what was happening were largely dismissed as it all seemed just impossible to believe. I'm still shocked by it today. there was concerted effort on the part of the US State Department to burry the evidence every time it showed up =- reports, witnesses. people had to find means around State to have it heard

Posted by: runner at April 29, 2018 09:05 AM (bUjCl)

264 In the UK, some babies are deemed "redundant" by the State. Redundancy must be eliminated. Redundancy must be eliminated. Redundancy must be eliminated. Redundancy must be eliminated.

Posted by: Soothsayer -- Fake Commenter at April 29, 2018 09:05 AM (OmYAr)

265 every time I see those senile dinosaurs in the Senate, heading committees, making decisions. Average age is 80+ over there Posted by: runner ------------ Pfft.

Posted by: Ruth Buzzy Ginsburg, 85 at April 29, 2018 09:06 AM (c/EDo)

266 Alfie Evans Priest Reportedly Kicked Out Of Hospital" Italy sent a Priest to be with the family, bcz the Archbishop of Liverpool couldn't be bothered to make the 7 mile drive. The Priest from Italy got booted. Here's the story link: https://tinyurl.com/y98pkza9 Posted by: prof disarray, gumdrop gorilla channel at April 28, 2018 06:02 PM (Jesl+)

Posted by: prof disarray, gumdrop gorilla channel at April 29, 2018 09:07 AM (LSB34)

267 If the NHS really wanted to save money within the "medical practice" and for the State, they'd roll the plateau, - the peak, - the pinnacle, - back to the days of bloodletting and leeching.

Posted by: Fritz at April 29, 2018 09:07 AM (J7XgW)

268 One of our own 'ettes had the misfortune to fall ill in Italy, and no linens, no food or water, no hospital gowns: nothing. I think she was laid up for a week or so. Nightmarish.
==============================
  
Ah, memory.  I remember needing a cast in Italy about ten years ago and the doctor was smoking the whole time he worked on me.  That sort of behavior has probably changed but it was pretty nuts to experience.

Posted by: Huck Follywood, I'm your Huckleberry! at April 29, 2018 09:08 AM (ZyZPm)

269 My mother was born in GB but lived here after she married my dad. Back in the 90's, her brother who was in his early 70's, died because he had reached the age where the NHS would no longer provide dialysis. When she told me about this, I couldn't believe it. Now I do.

Posted by: Mrs. Leggy at April 29, 2018 09:08 AM (g32Cf)

270 259: My daughter's father in law died of prostate cancer. The only treatment available was traditional radiation after a pretty outmoded surgery. To this day my SIL gets misty eyed when he sees a US billboard (along the NJ turnpike) for some prostate treatment and says "why was that not offered to my father?" The answer is that he was treated in Paris, not NYC

Posted by: CN at April 29, 2018 09:09 AM (5gaNQ)

271 "I'm convinced England is done for, just waiting for the temperature timer to say when its done.

Posted by: Skip"

Think of Alfie a microcosm of England.  The elites have decided it must die and anybody that tries to intervene stop its death is going to jail.

Posted by: Ripley at April 29, 2018 09:09 AM (MxEKc)

272 266: I'm convinced Alder-Hey has something to hide. Their safety inspections have been very sketchy and they were caught up in the NHS organ selling scandal years ago.

Posted by: CN at April 29, 2018 09:11 AM (5gaNQ)

273 249 Something came up recently here about Eisenhower insisting on camera crews documenting abuses at the Nazi camps. He said something about 'they' will pretend it never happened. I took his comment to mean our State Department, as they have been a hotbed of antisemitism for many years, but he could have been referring to the Germans. Posted by: mustbequantum at April 29, 2018 01:59 PM (MIKMs) --- MBQ, I think it was because he remembered all the hysterical propaganda about "The Hun" from WWI, and he feared that people simply wouldn't believe an atrocity of this magnitude wasn't just more propaganda.

Posted by: All Hail Eris, She-Wolf of the 'Ettes 'Ettes at April 29, 2018 09:13 AM (qJtVm)

274 ...decision has to be made in the direction of life, not death. so if ,theoretically, parents refuse treatment, then the state may have the right to overrule. Posted by: runner at April 29, 2018 01:15 PM Umm, no. I had to make the decision 8 years ago to pull the plug with my 24 yr old son after weeks in a coma. I would not have been pleased to have the state step in to overrule. The decision was mine and my family's. Fuck the state. As Muldoon said @151: There are all sorts of risk/benefit considerations.... There are varying levels of certainty when trying to predict outcomes.

Posted by: olddog in mo at April 29, 2018 09:16 AM (Dhht7)

275 The EU human right's court loses it's nut if some Jihadi has his rights denied but pulling the plug and denying a sick child food and water is deemed acceptable. I don't feel bad for the people, they let this happen and if you read the comments section of British papers the people are literally slaves and servants to the government.

Posted by: Rose at April 29, 2018 09:26 AM (+VCSF)

276 There was no life to be saved. Alfie Evans' brain did not exist anymore. In the weeks leading up to his death, there were no higher cognitive processes going on. The difference in his existence now vs. his existence ten days ago is zero. There was no hope of a cure, no hope even of any improvement, unless you think Jesus was somehow going to magic his ass back to life. It's unlikely the child, or more accurately the remnants of the child, could feel pain, in which case all the hospital was doing was animating a corpse. If the child could feel pain, then in the absence of any prospect of a good outcome. artificially extending life was wicked. There's been a huge amount of sanctimonious shit spouted in the last few days about this case. Kids die. It's always tragic, but sometimes it's not the worst thing that could happen.

Posted by: Davis Gillies at April 29, 2018 09:28 AM (Jipp3)

277 Kids die. But rarely by order of the State. May your chains rest lightly on you.

Posted by: Grump928(C) Justice is my Sarah Palin's uterus at April 29, 2018 09:31 AM (yQpMk)

278 @227. Davis Gillies, Fuck you. That's what you were trolling for, right?

Posted by: olddog in mo at April 29, 2018 09:33 AM (Dhht7)

279 Have you ever noticed how they don't seem to do this to Muslim kids...

Posted by: The Gipper Lives at April 29, 2018 09:33 AM (Ndje9)

280 Posted by: Davis Gillies at April 29, 2018 02:28 PM (Jipp3) You have TOTALLY missed the point. Totally.

Posted by: prof disarray, gumdrop gorilla channel at April 29, 2018 09:37 AM (LSB34)

281 207 199. Yep. Anyone recall the rationale for the use of gas in the Shoah? It was for humanitarian reasons. The holocaust by bullet they'd been doing in the East was traumatic for many of the men involved. -------------------- Not really. Shooting to the head is quick and easy. Untangling a mess of bodies who were gassed was grisly. Most of the deaths were simply by starvation. Being shot in the head was a blessing. The Soviets found the same results with their use of carbon dioxide (vehicle exhaust) gassing.

Posted by: Puddin Head at April 29, 2018 09:38 AM (vV/gB)

282 Frau Blucher? Neigh.

Posted by: JAS at April 29, 2018 09:50 AM (sCN2W)

283 277 There was no life to be saved. Alfie Evans' brain did not exist anymore. In the weeks leading up to his death, there were no higher cognitive processes going on. The difference in his existence now vs. his existence ten days ago is zero. There was no hope of a cure, no hope even of any improvement, unless you think Jesus was somehow going to magic his ass back to life. It's unlikely the child, or more accurately the remnants of the child, could feel pain, in which case all the hospital was doing was animating a corpse. If the child could feel pain, then in the absence of any prospect of a good outcome. artificially extending life was wicked. There's been a huge amount of sanctimonious shit spouted in the last few days about this case. Kids die. It's always tragic, but sometimes it's not the worst thing that could happen. Posted by: Davis Gillies at April 29, 2018 02:28 PM (Jipp3) ------------------- the "sanctimonious shit," as you term, it has been spewed by the state and the defenders of the state, you jackass.

Posted by: Blake at April 29, 2018 09:50 AM (WEBkv)

284 "The mills of God grind slowly. But they grind exceedingly fine." - English Proverb.

Posted by: JAS at April 29, 2018 09:52 AM (sCN2W)

285 At some point we agree (in the absence of actual anarchy) the State has a duty and a right to intervene between parents and child. If Alfie Evans' parents had been torturing him in a shed no-one would cavil at the idea that the authorities should do something. This isn't a case of the State denying treatment that might have been lifesaving. This was the State saying that any further extension of treatment was at best pointless and at worst cruel (the difference lies in whether the residue of Alfie Evans' brain was capable of sensing pain). It was correct in this assertion. There's no sanctity of life issues at stake here. And unless it is seriously being proposed that the rights of parents trump every consideration, including the rights of their child, then I can't see why this particular case has generated so much emotion. Hard cases make bad law, but in this case the parents were wrong and the NHS was right. I want the touch of the State to be as light as possible, but no lighter.

Posted by: Davis Gillies at April 29, 2018 10:04 AM (Jipp3)

286 Posted by: Davis Gillies at April 29, 2018 03:04 PM (Jipp3) Again, totally missing the point. Also, starving a child of food and water is cruel and unusual. We don't even do that to prisoners or criminals. You are missing so many points and focused on only one aspect. Also, taking a child from an abusive home is a ridiculous comparison. But I have already posted my thoughts on numerous threads, as have others, so I'm not gonna rehash it.

Posted by: prof disarray, gumdrop gorilla channel at April 29, 2018 10:09 AM (LSB34)

287 286 At some point we agree (in the absence of actual anarchy) the State has a duty and a right to intervene between parents and child.


I don't think we do agree.

Posted by: Off the reservation at April 29, 2018 10:09 AM (vWMNq)

288 If Alfie Evans' parents had been torturing him in a shed no-one would cavil at the idea that the authorities should do something. Starving a child to death is simply repellent to all actual humans. I disapprove of the State's solution to child abuse being child murder. YMMV.

Posted by: Grump928(C) Justice is my Sarah Palin's uterus at April 29, 2018 10:11 AM (yQpMk)

289 The latest exchanges do serve the topic of The Banality of Evil though. It's textbook.

Posted by: Grump928(C) Justice is my Sarah Palin's uterus at April 29, 2018 10:12 AM (yQpMk)

290 Why? because those are the rules, and rules must be obeyed slavishly, or society will soon be filled with individuals who do what they want with their own lives.

True, but the real question is, "Why are the rules what they are? What is the social policy behind them?"  That is where the real evil lies - in that individual lives are governed by the State.

It is one thing when the State makes decisions that impact survival of the State (like whether to build a Wall on the US-Mexican border), but an entirely different one for the State to make decisions on individual lives. 

In this case (at least from my understanding), the individuals had (or were offered) the resources to provide the medical services they wanted for their own child.  They were not asking the State to expend resources.

This is evil; the evil of arrogance for others; the evil of Stalin and the like.  But now Alfie is a martyr, and is just beginning to have his revenge on the evil-doers.

Posted by: one-eyed cat peepin' in the seafood store at April 29, 2018 10:15 AM (/sTHK)

291 Short of garrotting the corpse or pushing 10cc of potassium chloride through the IV drip, what else is there? Withdrawal of food and water is how life support is removed in paediatric cases.

The point everybody else seems to be missing is that there was never the potential of a good outcome in this case; the least bad outcome was what actually happened.

Posted by: Davis Gillies at April 29, 2018 10:17 AM (Jipp3)

292 The point everybody else seems to be missing is that there was never the potential of a good outcome in this case; the least bad outcome was what actually happened. In your, and the State's, opinion. If the courts had ruled otherwise, would that then have also been the correct outcome?

Posted by: Grump928(C) Justice is my Sarah Palin's uterus at April 29, 2018 10:20 AM (yQpMk)

293 277---Posted by: Davis Gillies at April 29, 2018 02:28 PM (Jipp3) ------------------------ I don't give a crap if the kid was a potted plant. If the parents want to take him to Italy or Jupiter ON THEIR OWN DIME, it's none of your god State's business. If the parents want to bring him home to die, the state has no right to refuse. He's 'dead' anyway, right? It's not as if it will make him worse. And if he can feel pain, it is the height of cruelty to kill him by withholding food and water. This is not a painless way to die. Sieg heil and go to hell.

Posted by: Margarita DeVille at April 29, 2018 10:20 AM (0jtPF)

294 The arrogance of the soulless is pretty insufferable.

Posted by: Grump928(C) Justice is my Sarah Palin's uterus at April 29, 2018 10:21 AM (yQpMk)

295 The point everybody else seems to be missing is that there was never the potential of a good outcome in this case; the least bad outcome was what actually happened. Posted by: Davis Gillies at April 29, 2018 03:17 PM (Jipp3) No, I'm not missing that. You are missing the larger picture.

Posted by: prof disarray, gumdrop gorilla channel at April 29, 2018 10:21 AM (LSB34)

296 Davis Gillies at April 29, 2018 03:17 PM (Jipp3)

Depends on what you mean by a "good outcome".  If you mean from your standpoint - surely.  But if you look at it from the family's standpoint: Not so much.

And the whole point of the story is: Who should make that judgement.  In this case, guess it's Davis Gillies.

Posted by: one-eyed cat peepin' in the seafood store at April 29, 2018 10:21 AM (/sTHK)

297 292 Short of garrotting the corpse or pushing 10cc of potassium chloride through the IV drip, what else is there? Withdrawal of food and water is how life support is removed in paediatric cases. The point everybody else seems to be missing is that there was never the potential of a good outcome in this case; the least bad outcome was what actually happened. Posted by: Davis Gillies at April 29, 2018 03:17 PM (Jipp3) -------------------- What a blind fool you are. Either one of what you mention would have been far more humane than what was actually done. However, you seem to think that passively standing by while allowing a human being to suffer and die slowly somehow justifies the actions of everyone involved.

Posted by: Blake at April 29, 2018 10:25 AM (WEBkv)

298 277: If he felt no pain, why did they want to give him versed with fentanyl? To induce chemical suffocation? Yes, kill him.

Posted by: CN at April 29, 2018 10:26 AM (5gaNQ)

299 As for "good outcome", who knows what neurology will be able to do in the future? Certainly not me or you. And if they are content to take care of him, I don't know why a visiting nurse could not have been arranged months ago.

Posted by: CN at April 29, 2018 10:28 AM (5gaNQ)

300 292: Then you people are more evil than I imagined. It is NOT the courts' decision, I am thankful I do not live in the UK or Canada and that we have a system where the family's wishes are deemed important.

Posted by: CN at April 29, 2018 10:32 AM (5gaNQ)

301 The NHS is the State Religion from which no dissent is allowed.

Posted by: Grump928(C) Justice is my Sarah Palin's uterus at April 29, 2018 10:34 AM (yQpMk)

302 As a carnivorous eater, I sometimes experience a food desert while traveling. Specially in the mornings - sometimes you'll be stuck somewhere with only carbs surrounding you because it's breakfast time. It requires careful preparation, and lunch bags.

Posted by: votermom pimping NEW Moron-authored books! at April 29, 2018 10:40 AM (hMwEB)

303 of wrong thread

Posted by: votermom pimping NEW Moron-authored books! at April 29, 2018 10:40 AM (hMwEB)

304 I don't know enough about the case to figure out what I would decide. But I can very easily see myself in the position of saying "Okay, pull the plug, just make sure he goes quickly." But there is a huge difference between me saying that, and the government saying that. There is all the difference in the world. And what's more, the NHS was not content at merely proscribing it's own decision onto what should be a very private matter. No, they sent in the police to prevent the parents from taking action contrary to what they described. This is not giving the child of a Jehovas Witness a blood transfusion. While I am uncomfortable with the government taking away anyones child, at least in that case, it's done to save a life. In this case, the British government used it's power to ensure death. It spent money to make absolutely sure the child didn't have a chance. Even if I would have made the same decision as the NHS, I find this absolutely disgusting. The state should NEVER have that kind of power over it's citizens. I am okay with abortion and euthanasia, and I do not see life as something sacred to be protected at all times. But the moment the government starts mandating death for innocent citizens, then it has lost any right to govern, for it has stopped representing the people, and made them into it's property. The only people it's okay to murder without any just cause are slaves.

Posted by: Sines at April 29, 2018 10:43 AM (5BxwJ)

305 The only people it's okay to murder without any just cause are slaves. Posted by: Sines at April 29, 2018 03:43 PM (5BxwJ) Please explain.

Posted by: Steve Brown at April 29, 2018 11:16 AM (iBYXp)

306 David Gillies, bomb thrower. But probably the kind to agree to Concentration Camp guard duty if need be...Or maybe to sell out the Franks because they were going to die anyway...

Posted by: Victoria at April 29, 2018 11:27 AM (xNkQq)

307 Is there a way to share this article on Facebook?

Posted by: katya the designated driver at April 29, 2018 12:41 PM (2ZUTy)

308 People who prefer single-payer health care agree to a Faustian bargain. They get flu shots, abortions, and vasectomies for free; and in return, profoundly unlucky people like Alfie Evans are killed by the state. It reminds me of the story Malcolm Muggeridge wrote as a young boy: A train heading down a mountain rolls right past a stop. Nearly all the passengers cheer while only one or two passengers complain about missing their stop. The train rolls faster and faster, passing more stops to the roaring cheers of most passengers and the willing compliance of the crew. But soon most the passengers have missed their stops; and, in spite the growing cries of panic, the uncontrolled train hurtles downhill. As I recall, the story ends as the momentum overpowers any mechanical or human restraints that once may have stopped the train; and the doomed passengers stare out the window as the blurred world passes by.

Posted by: Jim Flimsy at April 29, 2018 07:44 PM (i/UP/)

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