March 31, 2005
— Ace The amazing thing is that she lived as long as she did, without food or water.
Jesus, you'd almost begin to suspect she was a basically healthy woman capable of living a longish life so long as she was the subject of "heroic medical intervention," i.e., water and nutrition.
Obviously sad news. Now Michael Schiavo can continue tormenting the parents by not even agreeing to their requests for a Catholic burial.
Life is for the living, and funerals especially so. A lot of people seem blithe about euthanizing this woman on an ex-husband's say so. I kinda think this funeral dispute demonstrates a certain amount of bad faith and vindictiveness. For the love of God, you're killing their daughter; can't you even give her the sort of burial the parents wish?
But no. Another one of Terri's strangely detailed oral demands about her death involved cremation. And it's soooo important to cremate her, because, you know, like she's going to know the difference.
Let me just say on a personal note-- a close family member has indicated to me her desire to be cremated upon death, chiefly because she doesn't want to be such a bother to the surviving family. And of course I would respect that wish... unless it was extremely important to other family members. I really don't think she'd mind if I arranged a burial instead, if it could bring peace or comfort to those she'd be leaving behind.
But... Terri wanted to starve to death. Terri wanted to be cremated. Terri seemed to be quite the gabber with respect to issues of death, near-death, and its aftermath.
A sad day.
We've come to the point where you don't have to execute a living will to indicate your intention to die when deemed inconvenient by your family. Henceforth, death is the default; you need to sign a living will to make clear your desire to live.
Although, who knows-- somewhere down the line, I'm sure a clearly stated, signed, and witnessed "I would like to live" living will be invalidated on the say-so of a fled husband as well.
Too Late, But a Good Point: Many liberals were as outraged by this Kafkaesque tragedy as many conservatives. But oddly, not as many as you might have expected. Mickey Kaus notes that it's the liberals wo are most likely to posit "medical miracles" just around the corner due to, say, stem-cell research, and yet notes, quoting an email correspondent:
In watching the coverage of the Schiavo saga unfurl I am struck by the absence of the pro-medical miracle Left, if I may so anoint them.
Well? Are these medical miracles on the way or not? If they're not, then shut up about stem-cells. If they are-- why shouldn't Terri Schiavo have had the benefit of being allowed to live until the coming of these medical breakthroughs we're all so eagerly anticipating?
The Good, the Bad, and the Vicious: You know, people who wanted to keep Terri alive are so plainly evil they deserve to have their computers infected with a virus. Maybe if the computer gets really infected, we can euthanize it as well.
I'm so glad that all on the left care so passionately for the principle of the right to free speech without "chilling"... or computer virus payback.
That said-- there were some liberals who showed not just conscience but bravery on this issue. They knew damn well they were going against The Collective; they did so anyway.
May she rest in peace (( Or, may she haunt that bastard.
Posted by: carin at March 31, 2005 06:24 AM (vKC3p)
Just fucking sad.
Posted by: John from WuzzaDem at March 31, 2005 06:30 AM (Pt3Le)
He said the reason they gave Terri the morphine was because nurses' notes recorded that she was grimacing, moaning, and her muscles were tensing.
Can anybody doubt that she was in fucking agony?
Nuke the world.
Posted by: lauraw at March 31, 2005 06:32 AM (RldyP)
Excellent job. Now who else can we sacrifice in order to defeat the Bush Brothers? You know, in order to show how we are the party of compassion?
Posted by: Log Cabin at March 31, 2005 06:32 AM (E6hSy)
Posted by: johnny at March 31, 2005 06:42 AM (OuLOj)
Posted by: Politickal Animal at March 31, 2005 06:46 AM (XRToG)
"Now that she has passed let us hope and pray that Michael Schiavo was right and her parents were wrong, even if we don't believe that to be the case. Rest in peace."
Posted by: Bob at March 31, 2005 06:46 AM (lSPur)
If any medical miracle via stem cells is ever discovered, the rich and media-loved will be the first recipients of the cure, as always.
Posted by: Andrea Harris at March 31, 2005 06:47 AM (jEzJn)
This statement comes pretty close to bankrupting your whole argument for saving anyone's life after permanent incapacitation. And, yes, I understand your POV here, but c'mon, you have to honor the requests of the deceased irrespective of your own desires.
This is THEM we're talking about, not YOU.
Posted by: William Young at March 31, 2005 06:49 AM (lOEPY)
But it's a canard that this was done on his say-so alone.
The law in florida permits a determination of the wishes of a patient in Terri's predicament to be made by the *court.* Schiavo could testify, but he could not be the arbiter of her wishes.
The court heard testimony from at least five witnesses on the matter of her wishes. In addition to the testimony of Schiavo himself about his wifes views, there was testimony from two other people ( Michael's brother and sister-in-law, who was one of Terri's close friends) about statements Terri had made on the subject as an adult, that the judge found credible and which led to his decision.
He decision has been reviewed by higher courts, and no court has found there was insufficient evidence to meet the clear and convincing standard, or that evidence was improperly ignored, etc.
This was not done on one man's say-so.
Posted by: SarahW at March 31, 2005 06:51 AM (P7o+V)
There is a simple point to be made and you make it well. What would it have hurt Michael to allow her family to be with her? What does he lose by allowing them to burry her? He is a pathological control freak. This is just he final act in his performance. He will control it all until the end. This was his final act of control over his wife.
Honestly I do not know how you can look the family in the eyes and say, "No, you cannot be here." I do not pretend to comprehend that level of arrogance and inhumanity.
Karma is a bitch, Michael needs to keep that in mind in this final phase.
Posted by: Jennifer at March 31, 2005 06:52 AM (TFMd3)
Posted by: BrewFan at March 31, 2005 06:52 AM (Byr3j)
When it's born of a desire to not be a bother-- well, the basic intent is to aid and comfort the surviving relatives, right? And if the assumption that a cremation would best aid and comfort the living turns out to be wrong, well, then, shouldn't the decision be so modified as well?
Look, funerals and cremations are not for the dead. Unless you have strong religious beliefs about the proper way to be buried or cremated. They're for the living in many if not most cases.
Posted by: ace at March 31, 2005 06:53 AM (Q6+G6)
Michael Schiavo has had a tendency to "remember" Terri's statements long after they were made.
Posted by: ace at March 31, 2005 06:56 AM (Q6+G6)
Those of you who want to kvetch about law and how this was right and all of that happy shit, shut up. Show some respect for the dead.
We will remember you Terri. Your suffering is ended. Sleep in peace.
Posted by: Sue Dohnim at March 31, 2005 07:00 AM (rE+jU)
Posted by: See-Dubya at March 31, 2005 07:00 AM (PUZhO)
Ace, I don't know whether you are married or not, but this is actually a valid conversation between married couples. Coincidentally, my wife and I had such a discussion last January after the death of my wifes grandmother. We both want cremation so we don't leave a body for the other to feel anchored to. We both want some of our ashes scattered in places special to us, and the rest kept around.
We have also discussed the issue of life support which is perhaps why I don't feel it odd that Michael can make such claims. However, excluding the schindlers seems to be just spiteful, however given the flack he has faced because of them, I don't say I can blame him.
Posted by: DelphiGuy at March 31, 2005 07:12 AM (nyx6v)
Posted by: wyguy at March 31, 2005 07:15 AM (wJVfc)
Excepet there's one BIG difference. Terri is unfortunately dead now, and that was the whole point of the earlier argument.
Posted by: hobgoblin at March 31, 2005 07:18 AM (2da3S)
Posted by: hobgoblin at March 31, 2005 07:20 AM (2da3S)
Posted by: johnny at March 31, 2005 07:22 AM (OuLOj)
I can't quite believe I've watched this happen.
May she rest in peace, and let her parents and siblings find some peace, as well.
Posted by: Dianna at March 31, 2005 07:25 AM (qrFCz)
I'm about Terri's age. In my early twenties, I wasn't morbid enough to spout off at-random remarks about pulling plugs and yanking tubes. But I talked about it now and then in the same sort of contexts Terri is said to have made remarks, and some others.
Posted by: SarahW at March 31, 2005 07:25 AM (P7o+V)
There will be several. There will at least be litigation between Michael Schiavo and Terri's insurers over her life insurance proceeds, as well as the probate of her estate (I'm guessing she didn't have a will, because we would've heard about it if she did). On top of that, you'll probably also have a wrongful death suit by her parents against Michael. And that's just for starters: there could easily be more.
Posted by: Dave J at March 31, 2005 07:30 AM (kLLbt)
Slightly O/T how come you never here of the incredible success achieved with Adult stem cells? The venture capitalists sure know.
So how do you impeach judges in Florida?
Posted by: Iblis at March 31, 2005 07:49 AM (/cePO)
But perhaps they can get a portion of Michael's speaking fees, his book advance for "Terri: My Life With an Angel," his weepy appearances on Oprah and Today and his no-doubt-already-booked slot at the next Democrat National Convention.
Posted by: Christopher at March 31, 2005 07:51 AM (SjUPQ)
2. Every day a few hundred die because they are vegetative and a guardian directs no more watering via a feeding machine. Exact stats are unknown. It's routine in Alzheimers patients families to make that directive at a certain stage.
3. No vegetative patient has had more litigation and due process than Terri Shiavo. Many may not like what the Courts decided, but no person has had the many millions of dollars expended by taxpayers in legal costs, no person has had the Presidental, Congressional, media, and public attention and debate T Schiavo got. No vegetative in the future will get remotely close to the resources and attention directed at them T Schiavo got.
4. Cremation vs. burial is a waning Catholic debate. It used to be more controversial. Now it is fully accepted in Church dogma. As for wishes, cremation and interment in Schiavo's family plot where Michael plans to rest one day was set as what would happen in 2003 after court review of both side's wishes. As is almost always the case, the spouse's wishes are what goes over other relatives in most state's funeral laws. Foregoing all his wishes and burying T Schiavo in Florida solely for the Schindler family's personal mourning convenience and Mrs Schindler's traditional dislike of cremation would be a tremendous gesture of sacrifice & generosity. After 12 years of bitter struggle with such in-laws, regardless of who was in the wrong, I doubt ANY spouse in Schiavo's position would honor that request.
5. Prez Bush made remarks in condolence, of the "grace and dignity of both families setting an example for all of us". Anyone know what the heck he was thinking????
6. By all accounts, Terri Schiavo was a shy, sweet, good-hearted young lady when most of her brain, thus most of her, died in 1990. Now what was left of her was finally was allowed to pass on. May she be restored in full in the afterlife.
7. Let's hope the autopsy will show that letting her die was the right thing to do. Even if you disagree, as Jonah Goldberg said, let's hope, at this stage, for her sake - that M Schiavo was right, and the Right to Lifers and the Schindlers wrong.
Posted by: Cedarford at March 31, 2005 07:53 AM (6krEN)
Posted by: at March 31, 2005 08:02 AM (5dhtz)
1 : sensitive mental or aesthetic perception
2 : a keen sense of what to do or say in order to maintain good relations with others or avoid offense
Posted by: John from WuzzaDem at March 31, 2005 08:04 AM (Pt3Le)
Cedarturd, when that autopsy report comes out don't forget to grab the tissues and lotion you fucking monster.
Posted by: BrewFan at March 31, 2005 08:09 AM (Byr3j)
Posted by: John from WuzzaDem at March 31, 2005 08:19 AM (Pt3Le)
Yo, Cedarford - improve the world some, join them.
Posted by: at March 31, 2005 08:22 AM (QAxxU)
No more "watering"? I think we're taking the "vegetative" concept a little too far there.
Posted by: Bob at March 31, 2005 08:23 AM (lSPur)
For me, this is a very somber day for America.
That judge should be impeached.
Posted by: HundredPercenter at March 31, 2005 08:27 AM (CEZlE)
Of course not, Ace. Didn't you listen to John Edwards? Terri would have gotten out of bed and danced with Christopher Reeve on November 3rd if Kerry/Edwards won the election.
Posted by: Jim at March 31, 2005 08:38 AM (/SAZR)
true that this was not the act of a single man, but without that single man, there would not have been this act.
Posted by: OCBill at March 31, 2005 08:39 AM (YOhqV)
Oh please. Michael never said anything about Terri's alleged wishes until years after her incapacitation, around the time he decided not to treat a urinary tract infection that would have killed her (treatment took place, however, against his wishes). Then shortly before the end of a key hearing, one of the key figures--I believe it was one of Terri's temporary guardians ad litem--said Terri's alleged comments would be more credible with corroboration. Lo and behold, Michael produces his brother and sister in law to corroborate it. As I've said elsewhere, if this were a detective novel, what questions would you have?
Nice link to the Kausfiles item, but unfortunately he does not challenge Pinkerton's key mistake--most of the religious right does not oppose stem cell research--certainly Catholics don't. The religious right opposes stem cell research that kills people who have the misfortune to be vulnerable embryos. The right supports adult stem cell research, which has the fringe benefit of having actually produced effective treatments.
Posted by: Christopher Rake at March 31, 2005 08:49 AM (E47WC)
Posted by: carin at March 31, 2005 08:57 AM (es5K2)
People are going to think I'm horrible but there is good reason to think Terri was thinking about her mortality before her cardiac failure. She was suicidal. She wasn't just going about her business when her heart suddenly seized up. She was engaged in a lengthy process of self-starvation offically listed as bulimia. I have a bit of experience with this. During some periods of serious depression I've starved myself for periods of over a week. Taking this to the point where electrolyte deficiency results in autonomic signal failure (the brain's signals to the heart don't get through) requires a level of determination that leaves no question as to the intended result.
I don't have any strong feeling either way in this. The woman died a long time ago but the parents are welcome to keep the body cared for as long as it doesn't come at the expense of treating others how might actually have a discernable volition. I do think neither side is being entirely honest about all the factors that led to this moment. Terri really needed help 16 years ago. Everything since has been for naught on both sides.
Posted by: Eric Pobirs at March 31, 2005 09:06 AM (Iq1OO)
Feel free to pass that suggestion along to david.simmons[at]myfloridahouse.gov. He's the chairman of the Florida House Judiciary Committee. But good luck: Florida hasn't impeached a judge in ages, though we pushed two into resigning by the threat of it in the past few years.
Posted by: Dave J at March 31, 2005 09:16 AM (kLLbt)
Posted by: Dave J at March 31, 2005 09:17 AM (kLLbt)
Posted by: ace at March 31, 2005 09:20 AM (Q6+G6)
Posted by: J. at March 31, 2005 09:27 AM (3JIdy)
SpewFan writes: "One last time for old times sake:
Cedarturd, when that autopsy report comes out don't forget to grab the tissues and lotion you fucking monster. "
Once again, I am impressed by the blind hatred and venom coming from some on the "sanctity of life"
Posted by: Cedarford at March 31, 2005 10:10 AM (6krEN)
"O Kettle, thou art black!" exclaimed the Pot.
Posted by: zetetic at March 31, 2005 11:13 AM (WiyhL)
Hell, even Dickie saw the writing on the wall and bailed.
Posted by: Dogstar at March 31, 2005 11:22 AM (KgeNY)
He is a sick s.o.b. and thinking about him putsd me in mind of Charles Stuart (sp?) from Boston who ended up leaping off the Tobin Bridge after actually murdering his pregnant wife ....
I imagine a man like Michael Schiavo with such deep seated control issues is going to self-explode just like Charles Stuart, maybe when the findings on Terri's broken bones and possible abuse is actually investigated ..
[Edited by Ace. Ace's House Rule: Ix-ne on any alk-te about engeance-vay.]
Posted by: psflanagan at March 31, 2005 11:30 AM (TfMDp)
Posted by: wannabe at March 31, 2005 11:38 AM (zNcvH)
BTW I have seen stem-cells raised by people, but only to dismiss them a la "The Schindlers are Crazy Catholics, so obviously they wouldn't want it done, so let her pop off for all the good she'll be able to do to science." Charming, really.
And yes, Catholics can be cremated, as long as it's not done as an express defiance of the doctrine of the resurrection of the body. I doubt she and Michael could be plausibly said to have talked much about that, so doctrinally she's safe. For what it's worth.
Posted by: Sonetka at March 31, 2005 12:01 PM (qnMMH)
Posted by: zetetic at March 31, 2005 12:04 PM (WiyhL)
Posted by: hobgoblin at March 31, 2005 12:07 PM (2da3S)
Assuming cremation WAS a request of hers, you STILL don't think it matters if Michael honors her wish. Instead, it's more important to placate her parents than do what she wanted.
Posted by: Sherard at March 31, 2005 01:16 PM (vrzBj)
Hey, he killed their daughter. He could toss them a bone on the funeral.
Posted by: ace at March 31, 2005 02:18 PM (Q6+G6)
Posted by: hobgoblin at March 31, 2005 02:20 PM (2da3S)
As for living will? Why, so they can "lose" the folder and then say "oops" when they find it after I've been helped off this mortal coil? I can pay for several more months of cable teevee with that fee. Screw living wills. Let them kill me like they're going to anyway.
Posted by: Andrea Harris at March 31, 2005 03:26 PM (0XThq)
Awww Ace, I was talking about unstable people and how they tend to self-destruct when the pressure gets to be more than they can handle .. Hey, look at poor Michael Jackson and his back problems!
As far as Michael Schiavo, I do not think anyone needs to wreak any engeance-vay!! That much evil concentrated in one individual is bound to cause self-destruction ..
harmonic balance and all that
p.s. I'm serious -- you'll all be asking me to read your, er -- tell your fortunes one day.
Posted by: psflanagan at March 31, 2005 03:35 PM (La+W/)
You know, stupid, I wouldn't permit a dancing-on-a-grave post about a dead liberal politician. Why are you classless and tasteless to dance on the grave of a dead innocent woman?
Posted by: ace at March 31, 2005 03:45 PM (Q6+G6)
perhaps in your bitter, shrivelled, dried up excuse for a soul, you'll realize that not everyone saddened by this turn of events was a "religious wacko"
and perhaps one day, your bitter, shrivelled, dried up excuse for female genitalia will know what a man is.
but perhaps not.
(ooops, wrong thread, but I was at least serious on this flame)
Posted by: hobgoblin at March 31, 2005 03:46 PM (2da3S)
please erase mine
Posted by: hobgoblin at March 31, 2005 03:47 PM (2da3S)
Posted by: Andrea Harris at March 31, 2005 05:16 PM (0XThq)
This is just wrong. He testified about his conversation with Terri in 1993, at his first deposition. Cite:
"And one incident in particular, a few years back when her grandmother was -- Grandmother Shindler -- she was in and out of a coma. She was in. She was out. She was real sick. And we'd go see her, and we had a vacation planned, to come here to Florida; myself, my brother and my wife. So when we left, her grandmother was still critical. We left, got on the train, and we had this conversation about her grandmother and things like that. And we started talking about her uncle, her uncle Fred, who had lost his wife and child tragically in a train wreck. And he was on an emotional roller coaster. He was a very distraught person, agreeably, after losing your wife and child on a train wreck. And, I guess, I believe he went out one night had a few drinks and wrapped his car around a telephone pole. And her uncle was in a coma for awhile and emerged a man that she never knew anymore. He was disabled. He can't walk. He can't do things for himself. His kids are his Power of Attorney now. We got into discussion about that and she said to me, I would never want to live like that. I would want to just die."
He waited five years after that to give up hope and ask the court to decide what should be done.
It took him three years, by all accounts, to give up hope that Terri would never recover, and at that same time he testified under oath about the grandmother and uncle stories.
Incidentally, Schiavo did not refuse the parents access. The parents weren't even at the hospice; Mrs. Schindler hadn't gone since Easter. Terri Schindler's two siblings were there, and the hospice workers came in to perform a procedure and asked them to leave temporarily. Bobby Schindler refused, and challenged one of the police officers there. At the same time, Schiavo was told (in another room) that a) his wife was dying right now, and to get over there and b) Bobby Schindler was accosting a cop right outside the room. At that point, Schiavo said that they couldn't stay.
And Ace, if you don't think it's particularly important where or how someone gets buried, then don't make any promises to people. Just tell people that you aren't likely to honor any promises you keep to the dead because the living yell louder, or whatever. But if you made a promise and then break it, that's pretty disgusting.
Posted by: cal at March 31, 2005 11:45 PM (7ThMu)
Posted by: Herve Leger Dress at June 20, 2011 09:48 PM (fqYIK)
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