November 29, 2009

Swiss Voters Ban Minarets
— LauraW

This does not apply to existing minarets (there are only four in all of Switzerland). It blocks the building of new ones.

Supporters of a ban argued minarets are a symbol of an Islamic claim to power.

"The Islamic religion is intolerant, but we do not want to limit freedom of religion, we want to outlaw the political symbol," says Ulrich Schlüer, a member of the rightwing Swiss People's party and one of the leading promoters of the anti-minaret initiative.

The group says it is time to act now before Christian values are undermined and violence flares in Muslim ghettoes as in neighbouring European states.

Supporters claim there is public concern about the growing Muslim community in Switzerland, radical imams, the role of women, as well as head scarves and other dress codes.

Immigrants
The number of Muslim immigrants has increased to about 350,000 (up to 4.5 per cent of the Swiss population) since the 1990s. Most of them came from the former Yugoslavia and Turkey and are considered moderates.

There are an estimated 160 mosques and prayer rooms in Switzerland, mainly in disused factories and warehouses. Only four of them have a minaret, including the mosques in Geneva and Zurich.

In the wake of heated debates at a local level about requests to build more minarets, members of the People's Party and the Federal Democratic Union collected enough signatures to force a nationwide vote.

Apparently the Swiss are not so neutral about plopping a towering symbol of Islamic authority in their picturesque Alpine landscape.

Oh, no indeed. The anti-minaret propaganda is rather in-your-face.

The political class is aghast at their countrymen. Who knew there were so many NASCAR fans in Switzerland?
Polls not long before the vote registered about 37 percent support for the measure, but that ballooned to 59 percent at the exit poll.

Tell me where you fall on this issue. I'm torn.

On one hand, it's an unambiguous message from ordinary folks to their political elite (and to muslims). They see Islamist aggression not far beyond their borders and they will not allow it to metastasize within their own nation.

On the other, it was a public vote on what is acceptable religious symbolism, which is dangerous and gives me the willies.

Posted by: LauraW at 04:39 AM | Comments (224)
Post contains 384 words, total size 3 kb.

1 God will know his own.

Posted by: toby928 at November 29, 2009 04:43 AM (PD1tk)

2 Count me in as a differentiation between religion and war. Pseudo-religion masking a cult of destruction versus religion .

Posted by: blow me at November 29, 2009 04:43 AM (t/GDA)

3 Modern Islam is a classic scam. It is a political movement that wraps itself inside a religion, using the true believers as fodder for it's political ends. Individual Muslims may be fine and sincere, but they are not what we are fighting here. Whether Islam, which was born in conquest and tyranny, can be a modern faith, i.e., one that can allow other faiths to believe as they will, is up for debate. Switzerland is a good test site for this, frankly I think they are doing the right thing, We are at war and in a war, rights are limited.

Posted by: billhedrick at November 29, 2009 04:48 AM (zOnUW)

4 WWOD?

Posted by: BUlldada at November 29, 2009 04:48 AM (mzwMH)

5 Islam is a violent, backwards, oppressive religion founded by a polygamous pedophile. They say "death to America", I say death to Islam and all of its followers. If I go out and tell someone to kill someone else, I can be charged with a crime. Islam tells its hate-filled pedo-worshiping followers to kill infidels. I am proud of the Swiss today. Also Cocks

Posted by: The guy who says Also Cocks at November 29, 2009 04:49 AM (QBQcg)

6 "it was a public vote on what is acceptable religious symbolism, which is dangerous and gives me the willies."

DEMOCRACY is dangerous and gives you the willies?

Good for the Swiss. They are the only country in Europe showing any determination to resist elite pressure for mass immigration and multi-culturalism, which combined are a disaster and a recipe for national suicide.

Posted by: James at November 29, 2009 04:50 AM (Cb2y5)

7 But is it more dangerous than the religion that it blocks?  I would have to say no.  If your political class is going to do nothing, why wouldn't you do something like this?

Posted by: ed at November 29, 2009 04:54 AM (9zsBx)

8 like I've always said, the minarets are our missles, the dome our helmet and the muslims our soliders. lululululululullulululululullululullulululululul............................... OsamaHusseinIslamObama 2012' (the terrorist-Uighur-ACORN-media choice) -It's never too early to campaign-

Posted by: Barry Soetoro (D-King OF The World!!) at November 29, 2009 04:55 AM (3sakb)

9 If I go out and tell someone to kill someone else, I can be charged with a crime.

Not unless the people you tell perform some overt act in furtherance of the crime.

IOW, in order to have the elements of a conspiracy you must have an actual act to further the conspiracy. It doesn't take much, but there has to be more than just telling them to commit murder.

IOW, if they went out and purchased a gun or other weapon to commit the crime, then you could be charged.

Posted by: Vic at November 29, 2009 04:56 AM (CDUiN)

10 Minarets?

Posted by: Charles Gibson at November 29, 2009 04:57 AM (Am6n/)

11

...and gives me the willies.

If you don't wnt the willies...I'll take 'em...all of 'em

...and the dicks, johnsons, peters...whateves

Posted by: Andrew Sullivan at November 29, 2009 05:00 AM (AnTyA)

12 Vic, Charles Manson killed no one and sits received the death penalty. Islam and its imams spread hatred, violence, and explicitly tells its followers to "strike at the necks" of infidels. If Christians or Jews pulled the same crap that the muzzies get away with, they would be called extremists and rounded up. But no, since the media and our governing class hates us, the muzzies get away with anything they want to. Nidal Hassan, who murdered in the name of religion, will never be as hated (by the left) as Charles Manson, whom never killed anyone...just told someone else to.

Posted by: The guy who says Also Cocks at November 29, 2009 05:04 AM (QBQcg)

13 What's all this talk about banning marionettes?

Posted by: emily litella at November 29, 2009 05:05 AM (PD1tk)

14 Oh...and Also Cocks

Posted by: The guy who says Also Cocks at November 29, 2009 05:05 AM (QBQcg)

15
The only thing I hate more than monkeys, people who like monkeys, and muslim islamists, are the Swiss.

oh, and the movie Scrooged.


Posted by: Scopes, the talking monkey at November 29, 2009 05:05 AM (AZ/lD)

16

I like Bing, but don't want to give up my google tool bar that is always available to type in a seach term and just go.  Wish Bing had that.

I don't see how the Swiss and pick and choose what religious symbols can be used in arcitecture - but its their country.

I'm sure there are many in the US that would like to ban steeples.

Posted by: lan sing at November 29, 2009 05:06 AM (cEOZd)

17

It was not a vote about what's acceptable religions. It was a vote about what is acceptable religious symbolism in a democratic society. There is a difference. This is not a vote that will limit freedom of religion in any way. It will protect those not of that religion to not have to accept it shoved down their throats and in their faces with a highly visible and audible symbol of said religions authority.

Posted by: E. at November 29, 2009 05:08 AM (vVf+0)

18
I think it's funny to see a 'progressive' europeon country say We Don't Want Your Kind Around Here.

I think Switzerland needs a time-out and needs to take a few cultural sensitivity classes.

Posted by: Scopes, the talking monkey at November 29, 2009 05:09 AM (AZ/lD)

19

On the other, it was a public vote on what is acceptable religious symbolism, which is dangerous and gives me the willies.

Eh.  It's zoning.

Banning a mosque would be an infringement of religion.  Banning a shape of building?  Are minarets defined in Islam, or is it a cultural thing?

Posted by: nickless at November 29, 2009 05:10 AM (MMC8r)

20 lan sing, How can they pick and choose religious symbols? Because it's their country not ours. We forget that Switzerland is historically a religious state (Calvinism) that has banned religions (or lack there of) in the past. We keep applying the American model to countries it doesn't fit.

Posted by: billhedrick at November 29, 2009 05:11 AM (zOnUW)

21
It will protect those not of that religion to not have to accept it shoved down their throats and in their faces with a highly visible and audible symbol of said religions authority.

hahahaha, okay, dunce

my favorite part was when you used the word protect. What are you, seven years old?

Posted by: Scopes, the talking monkey at November 29, 2009 05:11 AM (AZ/lD)

22

Seems like a simple answer. 

Conservatives believe in property rights.  

You buy your land, put whatever you want on it. 

Now having the call to pray in the middle of the night is another thing entirely.

If you can ban a tower, what else can you ban?

Oh, and knock off the NASCAR crap.  Are you implying NASCAR fans are RACIST? That won't work for anyone that's EVER been to a NASCAR race, so stop that shit, or go to a race.

Posted by: Kemp at November 29, 2009 05:12 AM (2+9Yx)

23 Europe is facing demographic demise from muslims. 
The native birth rate is a tiny fraction of the muslim immigrants.

Islam is a threat to decent civilization world wide.
Banning minarets doesn't seem of immediate use, except as a wakeup call about the problem.

Posted by: Village Idiot at November 29, 2009 05:13 AM (OKc6n)

24
We keep applying the American model the concepts of inalienable rights such as freedom and democracy to countries it doesn't fit.

fixed

You're right. How dare we feel appalled when a country, in the 21st century, doesn't live up to our ideals!

Posted by: Scopes, the talking monkey at November 29, 2009 05:14 AM (AZ/lD)

25 They are closer to what used to be St. Sophia's Cathedral. Mark Steyn noted that that was once the World's largest church, until the Turks took Constantinople. IT was overtly converted to a mosque.

Methinks that someone in Switzerland is more cognizant of their continents' history.

Posted by: Blue Hen at November 29, 2009 05:14 AM (1O93r)

26 Kemp, I believe the reference to NASCAR was a sarcastic one.

Posted by: billhedrick at November 29, 2009 05:14 AM (zOnUW)

27 I'm completely in favor- I despise islam and everything it stands for-
if that makes me a religious bigot, then send me my damn t-shirt
islam delenda est

Posted by: Jones at November 29, 2009 05:15 AM (JL3qV)

28 Oh, and knock off the NASCAR crap.  Are you implying NASCAR fans are RACIST? That won't work for anyone that's EVER been to a NASCAR race, so stop that shit, or go to a race.

------------------------

The only stereotype I have about NASCAR fans is that they can't detect irony.

Posted by: schizuki at November 29, 2009 05:15 AM (A1XjQ)

29 of course if that's completely over the top, then bollocks

Posted by: Jones at November 29, 2009 05:15 AM (JL3qV)

30
oh, and the first thing I said when I read this post...

what the flick are minarets?

Well, now I know. Thanks un-named internet search engine! And just to prove I'm not a complete architectural ignoramus, how many of you can recognize a Mansard roof?


Posted by: Scopes, the talking monkey at November 29, 2009 05:16 AM (AZ/lD)

31 oh Saudi arabia totally bans christian churches in the entire country.
Egypt won't let the christian copts build new churches or often even repair existing ones...  occasionally the muslims riot at their whim to butcher a few dozen christians.  Iran, well that would take a book.

Even supposedly moderate Turkey has horrific repression against the small Orthodox Christian population.  They won't let them use a seminary they have operated for hundreds of years.  Again, no new churches, won't let them repair old ones, etc..

Posted by: Village Idiot at November 29, 2009 05:16 AM (OKc6n)

32 Scopes, where did you get the term inalienable rights from? Oh thats right an American Document. So while I love and quote the founding documents of our country as much as others, we Americans have been rightly accused of arrogance for finding fault with furriners for not being American. Switzerland is not one of the 57 states.

Posted by: billhedrick at November 29, 2009 05:17 AM (zOnUW)

33 OK, a tip for all political organizations when they design their posters:

Avoid the color combination of black, red and white.

I'm just sayin'.

Posted by: schizuki at November 29, 2009 05:17 AM (A1XjQ)

34 My understanding is that minarets are of no more religious significance to Islam than steeples are to Christianity.  That is, they're helpful, but the religion would go on with barely, if any, hiccup should they all disappear.  Seeing as restrictions on the wearing of kirpans by Sikhs (an actual religious commandment for them) are not flatly prohibited, I suspect a ban on minarets could even be done in America, although it would probably require more than a mere referendum.

The description of this as a proxy war seems apt.  The ban on minarets is more of a shot across the bow, especially as the Muslim population of Switzerland doesn't seem radicalized. 

I've also heard that the call to prayer, which is often issued from minarets, isn't even an obligation on the Muslim hearer: it's just a reminder and is more like an alarm on which you're free to hit snooze as many times as you like so long as you eventually do what's needed.

Posted by: Wolfwood at November 29, 2009 05:18 AM (DF1HJ)

35 Kemp, I was mocking the typical liberal view of NASCAR fans.
My hubby is a NASCAR fan.

You inbred redneck cousin-pokin, three-toothed imbecile.
I mean that in the nicest way possible. No offense.

Posted by: lauraw at November 29, 2009 05:18 AM (DbybK)

36 This is not a good development, but at least it shows the local libtards that some of their EUroParadis isn't all they think it is.

Posted by: ParisParamus at November 29, 2009 05:18 AM (zL+qc)

37 The Swiss have the benefit of someone else's mistakes. They border on France.

Posted by: Immolate at November 29, 2009 05:20 AM (cf4JB)

38 I still haven't gotten over the French schools' ban on headscarves and crosses: "let's dampen the spread of Islam by punishing Christians and Jews alongside Muslims."

Full-on burquas are another thing, and arguably a sign of slavery, but . . . headscarves? That one was idiotic.

Posted by: Little Miss Attila at November 29, 2009 05:20 AM (saBHO)

39 I think banning minerets is sexist. If chicks want to mine fine by me.

Posted by: Loretta Lynn at November 29, 2009 05:20 AM (kKP5O)

40

"I don't see how the Swiss and pick and choose what religious symbols can be used in arcitecture - but its their country.

I'm sure there are many in the US that would like to ban steeples"

christianity aint the same is it...plus aint it called zoning.

As a scandi I can understand in  a place like Switzerland you would want to do that. So muslims are 5% of the population there already - shit pomfrittes. wonder what Schweiz will look like in 50 - 100 years. This isn't just a Switzerland problem, it's a European problem, Holland and Germany have similar issues.

Posted by: konrad at November 29, 2009 05:20 AM (2Pfrj)

41 30 Scopes

What do you mean? An African or European Mansard roof?

Posted by: Buzzsaw at November 29, 2009 05:21 AM (tf9Ne)

42 If the small Muslim population in Switzerland are that offended about this whole issue, I am certain that there are many countries that would be far more accommodating to their need for a minaret. They might not have the best standard of living but at least their sensitivities won't be offended.

Posted by: NR Pax at November 29, 2009 05:22 AM (+UhmW)

43 <i> St. Sophia's Cathedral</i>

Sorry to nitpick, but "Hagia Sophia" is translated as "Holy Wisdom," not "Saint Sophia."  In Greek, "Saint Sophia" might very well be "Hagia Sophia," but when done the other way it's ambiguous without context.

Posted by: Wolfwood at November 29, 2009 05:22 AM (DF1HJ)

44

Since the underlying meaning of the Minaret in Islam is not only religious but sexual, maybe the Swiss are not really anti-religious but just prudes.

Who knew?

Posted by: Hussein the Plumber at November 29, 2009 05:23 AM (r1h5M)

45

Might be better for the Swiss if they just started busting all these imams who preach hate and the murder of "infidels."

Posted by: lan sing at November 29, 2009 05:23 AM (cEOZd)

46 The Swiss called up their jet fighters
They said "Saab, better earn your pay
Drop your bombs between the minarets
Down the Alpine way..."

Posted by: schizuki at November 29, 2009 05:24 AM (A1XjQ)

47

#35

OK, I guess I shouldn't be drinking this Jagger so early in the morning. 

I'll calm down, but after three shots of Jagger to get over my hang over, I got a little "sensitive".

 

Posted by: Kemp at November 29, 2009 05:24 AM (2+9Yx)

48 I like Bing, but don't want to give up my google tool bar that is always available to type in a seach term and just go.  Wish Bing had that.

You can add Bing to the list of search engines available in the search bar. At least in Firefox. I avoid Internet Explorer like the Swiss avoid minarets.

Posted by: Waterhouse at November 29, 2009 05:25 AM (Ta/V3)

49 showing mercy to the cruel is never a good idea

Posted by: phoenixgirl at November 29, 2009 05:26 AM (ucxC/)

50

#35

Oh, and how did you know I was F king my cousin?  That bitch talking?

Posted by: Kemp at November 29, 2009 05:26 AM (2+9Yx)

51 What do you mean? An African or European Mansard roof?

------------------------

European, obviously. African Mansard roofs are non-migratory.

Posted by: schizuki at November 29, 2009 05:27 AM (A1XjQ)

52 "On the other, it was a public vote on what is acceptable religious symbolism, which is dangerous and gives me the willies."

Well, I'll grant you, dangerous here in the States, where we have taken the notion of "
a public vote on what is acceptable religious symbolism, which is dangerous..." in with our mother's milk.

But on the other hand, perhaps the Swiss, along with the rest of the European nations , which constitute the
font of our comfortable, Western culture, have problems which we do not have, (and I would argue cannot have), what with our nation built upon an ideal, and not a geographical place.

I ask now, what other geographical place would Americans look to, to find such a cornucopia of the ideas of  freedom and liberty, as Europe?

What geographical place would we scan anxiously, to detect the skirmish line of the horde which would enslave us in the name of a fairly peculiar  and imperial god? I would say that the Europeans are farther forward than we Americans are, facing a more immediate danger.

My comment on a blog post is already too long. If  any European wants to put up a defense against the Mohammedans, my comment is 'Bully for the Europeans. Better them, than slaves worshipping a boulder sitting somewhere in Arabia.

Posted by: Mike James at November 29, 2009 05:27 AM (MB36h)

53
I got a little "sensitive".

Posted by: Kemp at November 29, 2009 10:24 AM (2+9Yx)

I thought you were a little sensitive after sitting behind the gargantuan woman with the big ass and high hair who blocked your view of turn 1........and turn two......

Posted by: Fish at November 29, 2009 05:27 AM (6mfq0)

54 How do I turn off the Italics?

Posted by: Mike James at November 29, 2009 05:29 AM (MB36h)

55 remember burka bikini's? someone should come up with burka ski attire. don't forget separate slopes....

Posted by: phoenixgirl at November 29, 2009 05:30 AM (ucxC/)

56 Clearly, somebody turned off the Italics.

I am ignorant of the Italic language.

Posted by: Mike James at November 29, 2009 05:31 AM (MB36h)

57 I know we're not supposed to bring it up.... but LGF will have it's panties in a twist !!eleventy!!

Posted by: TennDon at November 29, 2009 05:31 AM (o6Yv2)

58 I'm trying to make a bon mot connecting how minarets are holy and Swiss cheese is holey, but have failed thus far.

Posted by: Wolfwood at November 29, 2009 05:31 AM (DF1HJ)

59 Oh, now they figure it out. Couldn't ban Lenin when he was there.

Posted by: evil midnight bomber what bombs at midnight at November 29, 2009 05:33 AM (hCQG5)

60 How do I turn off the Italics?

Italics?  Never heard of 'em.

Posted by: Charlie Gibson at November 29, 2009 05:33 AM (MMC8r)

61 I have no problem with the Swiss forbidding hostile invaders from constructing monuments to their conquest and occupation.

Posted by: Insomniac at November 29, 2009 05:34 AM (1mOVF)

62 Arrivederci.

Posted by: Flavius Julius at November 29, 2009 05:34 AM (kKP5O)

63

That does it,, I'm packing my prayer rug, qu'ran and teleprompter, hoppin' on air farce one and,, just after I finish buzzing NY city,, I'll land in Switzerland, bound down the steps and make an unprecedented speech!!

 

OsamaHusseinIslamObama 2012'

(the terrorist-Uighur-ACORN-media choice)

-It's never too early to campaign-

 

 

 

Posted by: Barry Soetoro (D-King OF The World!!) at November 29, 2009 05:34 AM (3sakb)

64

#53

You guys following me? 

First Laura knows I a m F king my cousin and now Fish knows about the ho that sat in front of me at Charlotte.

Fish, was that your sister or mother?

Posted by: Kemp at November 29, 2009 05:35 AM (2+9Yx)

Posted by: Charlie Gibson at November 29, 2009 05:38 AM (MMC8r)

66 Hello? Islam has been at war with the West for centuries. It just took a nap for a while recently. This act by the Swiss is not like banning pizza shops in NYC because too many Italians are moving in. Minarets are not symbols of peaceful integration. Minarets are symbols of conquest. Conquest by the sword, or conquest by voting and birth rate.

Posted by: eman at November 29, 2009 05:41 AM (eSNGZ)

67
I'm conflicted here.

On the one hand, Islam and its political message of domination and submission is a terrible threat to the open society. Eliminating its symbol could help to lessen its power.

On the other hand, one could well argue that Christianity is as much in the public space, with its steeples and bells in place of minarets and muezzin. And my religion, Catholicism, hardly has an unspotted record in terms of acceptance of the open society; it's only within the last fifty years, in fact, that the idea of Caesaropapism has been explicitly rejected by the Church. We Catholics for much of US history have been distrusted as having a divided allegiance and designs on controlling the state - and in left-wing circles, that's still the case.

The problem is that Islam, as a religion, is designed to resist change. In that regard, Muslims are much more like Baptists than they are like Catholics: that is, there's no church hierarchy with the authority to say what is true and what isn't. Each imam is his own little pope, and each tries to distinguish himself from the others by showing how he is closest to "that old time religion" laid down by Mohammed. So, there cannot be an Islamic equivalent of Vatican II, a collection decision to change the direction of the entire enterprise.

So, I would not vote to ban minarets. But I do vote for confronting Muslims in general, and Islamic authorities in particular, with the implications of their religion. We have to abandon political correctness and speak openly and frankly of Islam and its hostility to the ideas of the West. We must not be afraid to demand of Muslims what was demanded of my ancestors: that they adapt their religion to the values of our open society. And if they won't, then we must not be afraid to take steps to limit its influence.


Posted by: Brown Line at November 29, 2009 05:41 AM (B7l/m)

68

Fish, was that your sister or mother?

Posted by: Kemp at November 29, 2009 10:35 AM (2+9Yx)

That 300 pound ho that blocked your view worked at the Charlotte Cooter's Club,  so don't confuse it with Hooter's.  My mother is 97 years and doesn't attend NASCAR races, and my sister is retired after 31 years with TWA and living in San Francisco.  Living in San Francisco says it all Kemp.....no NASCAR but plenty of liberal whine and cheese. 

Posted by: Fish at November 29, 2009 05:41 AM (6mfq0)

69

Well, now I know. Thanks un-named internet search engine! And just to prove I'm not a complete architectural ignoramus, how many of you can recognize a Mansard roof?


Posted by: Scopes, the talking monkey at November 29, 2009 10:16 AM (AZ/lD)

It's like a hip roof but on all four sides. Even I can see that.

Posted by: cat with a sock over its head at November 29, 2009 05:42 AM (7+pP9)

70 I support this.

Islam is not compatible with a free, open, or tolerant state.

Islam's goals are unambiguously clear.  And those goals are not consistent with the goals of the swiss people or the swiss state.

Just as many European countries have banned the Nazi party, because of its core intolerance, so too should Islam itself and Islam's symbols be banned.

Public expression and freedom of religion have limits, just like all rights.  By its very nature, Islam is outside of those limits.

Posted by: Sir Elliot at November 29, 2009 05:44 AM (DUNS7)

71 Is the call to prayer always done from a minaret?  Would the lack of a minaret prevent the call to prayer being broadcast?  Does anyone know?  I think the visual symbol of the tower would be nothing compared to having to listen to that wailing.  Now, THAT's a "claim of power" over eveyone within hearing distance.  When I hear that I truly get frightened.

Posted by: Kathy at November 29, 2009 05:45 AM (yXzLF)

72 69, A Mansard roof is the kind that when it needs to re-shingled, you're screwed.

Posted by: eman at November 29, 2009 05:45 AM (eSNGZ)

73 It's not a religion. It is a political ideology as pernicious and evil as Nazism, communism or the other totalitarianisms.

It seems that the mozzies like to built their indoctrination towers to be taller than any other religion's to subtlety reinforce their belief that they are superior / that they will conquer.


Posted by: Reality at November 29, 2009 05:46 AM (g2L90)

74 I'm with Sir Elliot at 70. Can't say it better. If you are ambivalent about this you have fallen for the Muslim BS.

Posted by: kansas at November 29, 2009 05:47 AM (i0WE5)

75

The question is:  Is Islam a religion in the sense that we (or the Swiss) recognize the term?

 

The answer to the Swiss voter is no.

 

Good to see that the Swiss can make the distinction between "religion" and "violence in motion"

Posted by: Truman North at November 29, 2009 05:47 AM (XH/G8)

76 I worked for 2 Swiss textile machinery companies for 24 years. You will not find nicer people and companies treating their employees as well as they do. But their niceness in this matter could be their downfall, because if you give an islamist an inch, he'll take your damn head!

Posted by: Joseph Brown at November 29, 2009 05:48 AM (mumWu)

77

I like Bing, but don't want to give up my google tool bar that is always available to type in a seach term and just go.  Wish Bing had that.

It's on the MSN Toolbar, which also has a little weather pop-up window so I can check the weather without opening a new tab and going to weather.com or wherever. It does not, however, finish your words. I need that to help out my dismal spelling skills.

Posted by: Mama AJ at November 29, 2009 05:48 AM (Be4xl)

78 I'm not really torn on this. Does it bother my inherent believe in freedom of speech? Sure. But not nearly enough to override the mountains of direct empirical evidence that Islam - at least the fundamentalist strains of it - is fundamentally incompatible with Western democracy as we know it. And if Islam itself cannot control its fundamentalists as other religions do, then the rest of society really has little choice but to do so itself. Also note that this isn't just some random bill being pushed through by a legislator. It's a full-blown constitutional amendment.

Posted by: Rajiv Vindaloo at November 29, 2009 05:48 AM (HaGdt)

79 Freedom of religion is a right of citizens. But being a citizen implies adherence to a basic set of values. In the case of Islam, look at the rest of Europe to see if political Islam believes in the same values as the natives. Islamists don't believe in Western values. Yes, there are many good and decent Muslims; Europe must support them, not the radicals, by downplaying symbols of separatism and domination like the minaret, if there is to be peace.

Posted by: PJ at November 29, 2009 05:48 AM (Qpxxz)

80 Don't go squishy, Humpy.  It's not a religious symbol, it's a political symbol, like the Scandis said.  They can have all the mosques and prayer rooms they like, just not the minarets.  Sounds like a reasonable compromise to anybody but a religious zealot who refuses to compromise on anything.

It's exactly like the burqas.  They aren't religious, they're political.  Islam was invented a long time ago, burqas about a hundred years.

Even if it was religious suppression, I wouldn't care.  They suppress the hell out of other religions.  And if there's any religious that deserves suppression, it's the Religion of Pieces.

Screw 'em.

Posted by: FUBAR at November 29, 2009 05:50 AM (Lq+ym)

81 I don't think the real issue are the minarets but rather the issue of sharia.  In some other European cities, Muslims have become the majority and are openly practicing Sharia and enforcing religious laws that are in direct conflict with their host countries laws.  That is the real problem.  Muslims are NOT adapting their religion to conform with their host countries already established laws.  Look at what is happening in the US.  Muslims are getting their special prayer rooms and wash areas at airports and other public facilities (Minnesota if I recall).

Posted by: CDR M at November 29, 2009 05:52 AM (cvmTR)

82

 Saudi arabia totally bans christian churches in the entire country.
Egypt won't let the christian copts build new churches or often even repair existing ones...  occasionally the muslims riot at their whim to butcher a few dozen christians.  Iran, well that would take a book.

This is why I just don't care about the little things like limits on the shape of their mosques.

I also don't care if they got dirty looks the day after the Fort Hood shootings.

For a list of other things I just don't care about, please subscribe to my newsletter.

Posted by: Mama AJ at November 29, 2009 05:52 AM (Be4xl)

83 it was a public vote on what is acceptable religious symbolism, which is dangerous and gives me the willies.

I have a right to defend myself or my property by placing locks and fences and other obstructions to would be offenders.  I do those things in the name of liberty to protect what is rightfully mine from those that would take it by force. Democracy must do the same.  I don't like locks and fences, nor do I like preventing others from practicing religion (or building temples) as they see fit. I draw the line however at the point where those practices undermine the continued free exercise of my rights.

Posted by: ef at November 29, 2009 05:52 AM (+5ndY)

84 I'm not torn, not at the moment. For the Swedes, they've never had the same degree of freedoms we enjoy and they have a choice between limiting some freedoms to save the rest and losing it all to Islamic Tyranny. Which would you choose?

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at November 29, 2009 05:52 AM (PQY7w)

85 I feel there is nothing wrong with minarets speaking as a Christian. When the government can tell you what symbols you can use on the property of your own church/synagogue/temple, then what is next? 

Posted by: Drew in MO at November 29, 2009 05:53 AM (Y50nj)

86 I think there would be better approaches than to ban, actually, but banning is whats left.

Better approach: Embrace Christianity society-wide, convert the Moslems. Offer something better and make Islam a joke.

Posted by: evil midnight bomber what bombs at midnight at November 29, 2009 05:54 AM (hCQG5)

87 Also, I'm sure it didn't help the pro-minaret campaign that a) some anti- posters were censored (Streisand Effect times ten) and b) every last one of the pro- posters relied on the same argument: pure liberal guilt. That card doesn't play any more.

Posted by: Rajiv Vindaloo at November 29, 2009 05:54 AM (HaGdt)

88 OT:  Is this breaking, or older news: SCIENTISTS at the University of East Anglia (UEA) have admitted throwing away much of the raw temperature data on which their predictions of global warming are based.
http://tinyurl.com/y9rpkkm

Posted by: ParisParamus at November 29, 2009 05:55 AM (zL+qc)

89 Mama AJ  - thanks for the info.  And yes, I too need my words finished for me.  As much as I hate googles politics, they have some great bells and whistles.

Posted by: lan sing at November 29, 2009 05:55 AM (cEOZd)

90 84 I'm not torn, not at the moment. For the Swedes, they've never had the same degree of freedoms we enjoy and they have a choice between limiting some freedoms to save the rest and losing it all to Islamic Tyranny. Which would you choose?

I think this is about the Swiss.

Posted by: Flavius Julius at November 29, 2009 05:56 AM (kKP5O)

91

I don't like locks and fences, nor do I like preventing others from practicing religion (or building temples) as they see fit. I draw the line however at the point where those practices undermine the continued free exercise of my rights.

Posted by: ef at November 29, 2009 10:52 AM (+5ndY)

The only rights you have are the ones local zoning laws give you. Sad but true.

Posted by: cat with a sock over its head at November 29, 2009 05:56 AM (7+pP9)

92 This underlines the whole problem with Islam... since there is no separation of church and state, all its symbols are religious and political expression at the same time. There is no way to ban one without banning the other. No matter how this all plays out in the end in Europe or anywhere else that values freedom of religion or expression, we are going to lose something. We lose either some rights of expression, some rights of religion or we lose to an ideology that has no problem with dominating the world.

Posted by: LeighT at November 29, 2009 05:57 AM (avoEi)

93 It all started with the laws banning Christmas.

Posted by: Ol Grandpa who remembers old stuff at November 29, 2009 05:58 AM (+CLh/)

94 OT: Iran to Build 10 Uranium Enrichment Plants

That is, 10 more plants on top of all the secret ones. 

Posted by: Kratos (on the back of Gaia, scaling Mt Olympus) at November 29, 2009 05:59 AM (otlXg)

95 Switzerland is not the United States. It has all manner of laws about what your house can look like to preserve their cultural heritage. This seems similar to those laws. I am not sure if I agree with such laws or not...consider that freedom is important, but historical and cultural norms are too.... I often think of a world where everyone is free to go where they please, and then we end up with nothing left culturally speaking. (I mean, you fly to Thailand and find it 30% German, 30% Chinese, 30% Thai, and 10% Indian. - that's a bit freaky.) Modernity (also called Westernization) is happening quickly, but it could mean a lot of places get very boring. Ho hum, Tex-Mex in Tibet. I'd probably err on the side of freedom - Tex Mex is pretty awesome.

Posted by: sexypig at November 29, 2009 05:59 AM (u56hZ)

96

I wonder if this vote against minarets is going to cause a backlash?  Seems we always have to worry about a backlash.  And Muslims aways seem to backlash severely - like killing people and burning down buildings and blowing up cars.

 

 

Posted by: lan sing at November 29, 2009 06:01 AM (cEOZd)

97 Laura,
Let's not confuse Switzerland's laws and mores with ours (American)...
I think the vote in a nutshell was on whether or not the traditional Swiss people / culture wanted Islamic fire-bases built unchecked throughout their relatively small country.
I think pragmatism won out.... this from a population that voted to publicly fund opium / heroin use. 

Posted by: JAM2 at November 29, 2009 06:01 AM (HgmO3)

98 DEMOCRACY is dangerous and gives you the willies?

Posted by: James
------------------------

Yes, in fact our Founders knew that democracy was dangerous, and it gave them the willies. That's why they figured we'd better have a CONSTITUTION that prevented tyranny by the majority. It's not as simple as one-man, one-vote, friend.

Posted by: arhooley at November 29, 2009 06:02 AM (GKXA7)

99 @ 6: "DEMOCRACY is dangerous and gives you the willies?" Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what's for dinner. The Constitutional framers knew that, which is why the U.S. is organized as a representative Republic (with certain democratic institutions), not a straight democracy.

Posted by: Vile Roman at November 29, 2009 06:03 AM (sOpAl)

100 Iran just said they are building an additional 10 uranium enrichment plants. The religion of peace my ass.


Posted by: Barbarian at November 29, 2009 06:04 AM (EL+OC)

101

Islam is more of a political nuttery along the lines of Nazism or Scientology than a religion.  It's a disproven hoax that some homicidal, kiddie-screwing psycho cooked up in the 7th century.  So it's not really a matter of religious freedom so much as freedom of speech.  The minaret is tantamount to a threat, considering that the conversion, enslavement or murder of all non-Muslims in the world is part of the core teachings of Islam.  Putting up a tower that spells out "I hate all Jews" is freedom of expression.  A tower that says "I intend to kill all Jews" is an active criminal threat.  The minaret should be regarded as the latter.

Good for Sweden.

Posted by: Crusty at November 29, 2009 06:05 AM (qzgbP)

102 I think it's funny to see a 'progressive' europeon country say We Don't Want Your Kind Around Here.
----------------------

Scopes, who called them "progressive"? YOU STUPID LEFTIES DID. European, hence progressive. Yeah, it's funny. The joke's on you.

Posted by: arhooley at November 29, 2009 06:06 AM (GKXA7)

103 LeighT, Has spoken wisely. Islam is two mints in one. That is the central problem. It is also centuries younger than Christianity and so has not had the tendency towards oppression and conquest beaten out of it yet, as has its cousin.

Posted by: eman at November 29, 2009 06:08 AM (eSNGZ)

104 Crusty,
Switzerland.

Posted by: Flavius Julius at November 29, 2009 06:08 AM (kKP5O)

105 OT Breaking confirmed: 

SCIENTISTS at the University of East Anglia (UEA) have admitted throwing away much of the raw temperature data on which their predictions of global warming are based.

It means that other academics are not able to check basic calculations said to show a long-term rise in temperature over the past 150 years.

The UEA's Climatic Research Unit (CRU) was forced to reveal the loss following requests for the data under Freedom of Information legislation.


http://tinyurl.com/yzvyoxh

Posted by: ParisParamus at November 29, 2009 06:08 AM (zL+qc)

106 104 Crusty, Switzerland.

Posted by: Flavius Julius

Aren't they sort of the same, like Scotland and Ireland?

I jest.

Posted by: Crusty at November 29, 2009 06:10 AM (qzgbP)

107 105, Al Gore came this close to being President.

Posted by: eman at November 29, 2009 06:11 AM (eSNGZ)

108 I will say, however, I'm torn.

Side one: There's a war. Good for the Swiss for knowing and acting on this.

Side two: It's wrong. Cf. the Saudis, Chinese (cultural revolution), large slices of European history.

Posted by: arhooley at November 29, 2009 06:12 AM (GKXA7)

109

# 100...

 

It's all part of my latest unprecedented jobs stimulus plan!!

 

OsamaHusseinIslamObama 2012'
(the terrorist-Uighur-ACORN-media choice)
-It's never too early to campaign-

 

Posted by: Barry Soetoro (D-King OF The World!!) at November 29, 2009 06:12 AM (YwfvI)

110 73 - Reality
It's not a religion
75 - Truman
Is Islam a religion in the sense we (or the Swiss) recognize the term?

Islam is NOT a religion.
Islam is NOT a religion.
Islam is NOT a religion.
; font-weight: bold;">Islam is NOT a religion.

Islam is a political system, designed specifically to unify fractious and warring tribes Mohammed had conquered, by equating subserviance to Mohammed as divinely ordained, and trying to wipe out tribal beliefs in God/gods to keep the tribes together. Reality is right, it is NOT a religion in the Western sense.

Our culture, with its world view based on experience with Judeo-Christian beliefs and equally non-secular religious/spiritual traditions (Buddhists and Taoists don't do a lot of beheading), is woefully unprepared to deal with Islam. By Islam claiming it's a religion, they leave us without any sort of "politically correct" or "publicly acceptable" ability to stop them. You cannot be a good Muslim without following Sharia law. Sharia law is absolutely incompatible with BOTH democracy AND freedom of conscience - freedom of conscience being a basic cornerstone of Christian belief (I don't remember anywhere in the Gospel Jesus said to stone atheists or behead people who don't convert.) And spare me the "Oh Christian did bad things" routine -- they did, but it was in contravention to what their scripture told them to do. Islam tells their believers to lie or do whatever is necessary to expand Islam. How can you reconcile that to a modern society? You can't.


Posted by: MaureenTheTemp at November 29, 2009 06:15 AM (KYny9)

111 105

This line from the article is killer.

In a statement on its website, the CRU said: “We do not hold the original raw data but only the value-added (quality controlled and homogenised) data


Posted by: Buzzsaw at November 29, 2009 06:15 AM (tf9Ne)

112

#68

Sorry Fish, the girl smelt like er fish, so I thought you all might be related!

Posted by: Kemp at November 29, 2009 06:16 AM (2+9Yx)

113

On one hand, freedom of property and to a lesser extent, reliogion; on the other, weighing these rights for one group against the potential encumberances upon others' right to practice the same...

 

I think the Swiss mades the pragmatic choice here based on the evidence at hand.  Is it ideal?  No, but we don't live in an ideal world.

Posted by: unknown jane at November 29, 2009 06:16 AM (5/yRG)

114 Until Islam respects other religions it has no right to any respect itself.

Islam has no respect for other religions and never will because the basic premise of Islam is that it invalidates all other religions.  All Muslims believe that Mohammed was God's last Messenger and all Muslims believe that the Koran is the last, literal, true word of God and is the only holy text that has never been touched or corrupted by the hand of man.  All Muslims believe that that the "people of the book" have been fooled (Christians) or are deliberate and active enemies of Islam who know the truth but are liars attempting to destroy Islam for their own nefarious purposes (Jews). 

All Muslims believe that or they cannot call themselves Muslim.  Not only to all Muslims believe that, all Muslims take great pride in the fact of Islamic supremacy.  Islam cannot be Islam without it.

On a more mundane note, the simple fact that Muslims themselves have no respect for Islamic mosques or shrines beyond political value means that all "houses of worship" in Islam are mainly for political gain and political power.  Any store front can be a Mosque.  Prayer only has to be directed to Mecca from any place in the world.  A Muslims does not need or require a house of worship unless there is a larger political need in play.

If the Nazi's had presented their philosophy as a religion would we let them build their own shrine?  Remember, not all Germans were Nazi's.  But all Muslims are Muslims.


Posted by: Jaynie59 at November 29, 2009 06:17 AM (YjQWV)

115 ParisParamus,

Isn't that just lovely. I'll play my broken record again here:

Legal equivalent is, the prosecution says they've lost their evidence, so the jury will just have to condemn Mr. So-and-So to death based on the prosecution's good intentions.

Arts equivalent is Professor Phony announces the find of an unknown Shakespeare play in some musty old Stratford theater. He retypes the whole thing and refuses to display the original parchment because of its "economic value," plus the only reason people want to see it is to try to authenticate it -- the denialist bastards.

I'm getting to be such a broken record about this I should put it on my blog and shut up, but more people read Ace than they do me god knows!

Posted by: arhooley at November 29, 2009 06:18 AM (GKXA7)

116 religion, that is

Posted by: unknown jane at November 29, 2009 06:19 AM (5/yRG)

117

If American elites are so keen to follow the European model, why don't they move to ban headscarves and minarets here? I know, rhetorical question.

In the spirit of openness and honesty, I will out myself as a (gasp) Christian. I could care less if every last Muslim on earth burst into flames and I'm sure the feeling is mutual. So in other words, fuck em.

Posted by: Alex's Cabin at November 29, 2009 06:20 AM (/xZiZ)

118

The Swiss are the most American Europeans. They have a federal system of government, are capitalists par excellence, and they really believe in limited government. They also still have universal military service (in fact IDF was modelled on them).

The Swiss make us look like pussies because they control their politicians by way of direct referendum. As a consequence, they have limited government.

The Swiss are also very, very selective about who gets to be a citizen. The cantonal authorities get to vote on whether someone can become a citizen. This ensures complete integration into Swiss society.

This vote is just the Swiss asserting their idea of solidarity.

Posted by: Amor de Cosmos at November 29, 2009 06:20 AM (C3oJE)

119 Posted by: unknown jane @ 113

jane, I'm with you.

In addition, Muslims don't have to go to Switzerland. It's a tiny country, easily avoided.

Posted by: arhooley at November 29, 2009 06:21 AM (GKXA7)

120

#114

But all Muslims are Muslims.

No Shit? 

How do you come up with such great thoughts?

Just kidding, I know what you mean.

It about property rights, not a stupid religion. 

I own the land, I built whatever the f k I want.  With neon!

 

 

Posted by: Kemp at November 29, 2009 06:23 AM (2+9Yx)

121 Islam is a religion?

Posted by: Druid at November 29, 2009 06:25 AM (Gct7d)

122 buzzsaw 111

Why isn't this more widespread? Somewhere, some bank has recorded my net worth. I wish I could get some user rights and "add" some "value" to that "data." I also wish I could "control" the "quality" of my credit rating. That'd be sweet.

Posted by: arhooley at November 29, 2009 06:25 AM (GKXA7)

123 120, your idea of property rights does not compute in Europe. Build whatever you want? Sure, as long as it looks similar to all the other chalets in the valley.

Posted by: Amor de Cosmos at November 29, 2009 06:27 AM (C3oJE)

124 I like the twelfth poster - Nien to minarets, Ja to war material.  Now, that's the proper attitude.

Seriously, if the Swiss want to stop Islamification - the answer is to make love, not war.  They need babies, lets us handle the bombs for another generation.  Also, interesting, the poll numbers on this and European Union seem to indicate a wide gulf between the opinions of the elites and the proles in Europe.

Posted by: Jean at November 29, 2009 06:27 AM (xCBQ4)

125 Islam is not a religion.  It is a social, economic, and political system that uses religion to organize and propagate itself. 

Posted by: jumpininhere at November 29, 2009 06:28 AM (DkPYM)

126

Sorry Fish, the girl smelt like er fish, so I thought you all might be related!

Posted by: Kemp at November 29, 2009 11:16 AM (2+9Yx)

It's not my practice to put my head that close to a fat laden cooter to determine its family origin.  You are to be commended for that brave act.  Sniffing a 300 pound women in Spandex deserves the Gla-de Award for Sniffing Excellence.  Bravo. 


Posted by: Fish at November 29, 2009 06:28 AM (6mfq0)

127 Does this law prohibit the rebuilding of the four existing minarets - just thinking ahead here.

Posted by: Jean at November 29, 2009 06:28 AM (xCBQ4)

128

Minarets have one useful purpose, and that's as an aiming stake so the gunner can visually adjust lateral deflection.  Fire mission!

Posted by: Fish at November 29, 2009 06:30 AM (6mfq0)

129

It about property rights, not a stupid religion. 

I own the land, I built whatever the f k I want.  With neon!

 

 

Posted by: Kemp at November 29, 2009 11:23 AM (2+9Yx)

Tell that to the zoning commission.

Posted by: cat with a sock over its head at November 29, 2009 06:31 AM (7+pP9)

130

#126

It was not necessary to get that close, since her snuff was drooling out of  her mouth and the flies were just about to land on her maggot infested hair.  The whiff of fish came over me like smell of dead carp. 

Are you sure your sister wasn't at the Charlotte race?

Posted by: Kemp at November 29, 2009 06:34 AM (2+9Yx)

131 So, what's the big deal? The non-Muslim Swiss don't want to be blasted by loudspeakered calls to prayer from Muslim minarets. If the Muslims want to pray every day they can jolly well look at their wristwatches to check the time. If you want to talk about rights of expression and religion, fine. I have the right to be a practicing Christian, and attend the church of my choice every Sunday, sure. But does my church have the right to daily broadcast through loudspeakers to all and sundry to come to worship? Hell no, there's a difference between asking people to come to worship, and being an intrusive pain in the ass. At least the Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses have the decency to knock on the front door and ask your permission first. If the Muslims want to pray, they can pray, but they can pray in a less quiet & intrusive fashion. Nobody made them move to Switzerland in the first place, so they can adjust.
 

Posted by: exdem13 at November 29, 2009 06:36 AM (lYKj1)

132

#129

Yeah, no shit.  That's why I like Houston! No zoning!

Posted by: Kemp at November 29, 2009 06:36 AM (2+9Yx)

133

Are you sure your sister wasn't at the Charlotte race?

Posted by: Kemp at November 29, 2009 11:34 AM (2+9Yx)

Unless she has converted into a shine swilling, Sears & Roebuck catalog ass wiping jackwoman for the 24 team, then the answer is a definite maybe. 

Also, any seasoned NASCAR aficionado would recognize the opportunity with a fat woman doing snuff to know that's the basic for good skull pussy.  You passed up a great chance at immortality in the NASCAR Boneheaded Moves of the Year.  Shame - Shame - Shame!

Posted by: Fish at November 29, 2009 06:40 AM (6mfq0)

134

#132

You're lucky. If cap & tax passes, however, we'll have national zoning laws.

Posted by: cat with a sock over its head at November 29, 2009 06:45 AM (7+pP9)

135 131 -- actually, we had a Christian guy who started up his own church (I'm guessing he was an ordained minister or something, never checked into it) -- rigged up an old pickup with a loudspeaker and used to drive through town (it was a very small town) at least twice a week quoting his interpretations of scripture and calling on people to come to his church during hours of business.  It was basically viewed as just another quaint eccentricity in a quaintly eccentric hick town; sometimes funny (the Revelations interpretations were pretty humorous) sometimes annoying (on Christmas Day -- Brother "Ralph" was dead set against Christmas celebrations), mostly ignored...until he decided to do his spiel during the Super Bowl one year.  Poor man nearly got lynched for that one.

Posted by: unknown jane at November 29, 2009 06:46 AM (5/yRG)

136 Interesting how wide the disparity is between the people and the politicians.

Same here in the US ... only worse, as we see with this health care plan, and cap and tax, and immigration, TARP, etc.  Politicians are natural appeasers, buying influence/votes with other people's money and rights.

Good for the Swiss ...

nip it nip it nip it .... as Barney fife said, but we are a little further along than nipping it in the bud.

It is impossible to introduce into society a greater change and a greater evil than this: the conversion of the law into an instrument of plunder.

Posted by: bill at November 29, 2009 06:48 AM (nUbAO)

137 The other posters are right, Islam is far more than a religion, it encompasses an entire world view that affects every aspect of one's life.  The Minarets are a symptom.  Where the Swiss went wrong is allowing Muslims into their country in the first place.  Islam as practiced today is incompatible with liberal Democracy, period.  Oh sure, there are "moderates" but in the end they submit to the more radical elements. Oddly some of the younger Muslims are more radical than their elders, a bad sign.

Once Muslims reach any sort of critical mass, the radicalism takes hold, it is unavoidable.  Sharia law, oppression of women, intolerance of other people's and religion all take hold.  Anywhere in the world where you find concentrations of Muslims this is the case.  The Swiss know this, they see it happening all over Europe.  They don't want it and I don't blame them. 

I live in the Detroit area and we have a high concentration of Muslims in Dearborn. There are some nice people there but in the end Muslims stay loyal to their own.  During the war in Lebanon a few years back there were 10's of thousands of them in the streets demonstrating in support of Hezbollah, a sworn enemy of this country and killers of Americans.  You can have a conversation with a Muslim and things go fine until political or religious matters happen to come up.  You then realize how far apart their version of "reality" is from ours.  Of course when they are an extreme minority they tend to keep some of this shit quiet. 

Even so, Muslims are already making extraordinary demands here in the US to accommodate aspects of their religion that would't even be considered for any other religious group.  In the end, I have to admit I wish they would just get the hell out.  There are some decent, hardworking people in their ranks but the downside of allowing them to gain critical mass is just too great.  Until the so-called "moderates" among them start making themselves known and weeding out the radicals, I remain skeptical that we can safely integrate them into western society.

Posted by: Ken Royall at November 29, 2009 06:55 AM (9zzk+)

138

You passed up a great chance at immortality in the NASCAR Boneheaded Moves of the Year.  Shame - Shame - Shame!

Who said I passed it up?  I just want to know if she was your sister, and yes she was wearing a "rainbow" 24 jacket.

How did you know that?  You people are following me!

Posted by: Kemp at November 29, 2009 06:57 AM (2+9Yx)

139

It is well known among "True" NASCAR fans that Cale Yarborough, Bobby and Davey Allison, Dick Trickle, and a young Dale Earnhart Sr., along with other drivers, marched with the Reverend Doctor Martin Luther King Jr.

All those "Rebel" flags are flying, for states rights.

Posted by: Not Quite at November 29, 2009 06:59 AM (Bs8Te)

140

darn Swiss-billies, next thing you know they'll be demanding the raw data on AGW.

 

 

 

Posted by: shoey at November 29, 2009 06:59 AM (RxUMK)

141 I can deal with theminarets; it's the fuckin' loudspeakers that are obnoxious and imposing, even when the Muslims are not in power.

Posted by: logprof at November 29, 2009 07:02 AM (I3Udb)

142 Swiss, Swedes, whatever. Same deal for both countries, same problems they face.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at November 29, 2009 07:02 AM (PQY7w)

143

Ba-da-dum ba-da-dum ba-da-dum-dum-dum

Ba-da-dum ba-da-dum ba-da-DUM-dum-dum

Ba-da-dum ba-da-dum ba-da-dum-dum-DUM

Ba-da-DAA, d-d-d-DUM-dee-dum. 

Posted by: William M-F'n Tell, Baby! at November 29, 2009 07:03 AM (/VEEI)

144
This is the number one song on the Raghead Top 40 this week, and played especially for logprof.

Posted by: Fish at November 29, 2009 07:06 AM (6mfq0)

145
DEMOCRACY is dangerous and gives you the willies?

Yeah. That's why the USA is a Republic.

Dick.

Posted by: Rob Crawford at November 29, 2009 07:07 AM (n2wxa)

146 The posters who said it is not about religion are correct.  We do it all the time in this country....it's called zoning laws.  There are all kinds of so-called "acceptable" symbols that are banned for many reasons...blocking views, too near another building, billboard sizes and content, etc. In many areas in this country we don't allow establishments that sell liquor to be built near churches.  And minarets have really nothing to do with Islam, they are simply a convenience or architectural style. 

Posted by: Deanna at November 29, 2009 07:08 AM (gxuV2)

147
 And minarets have really nothing to do with Islam, they are simply a convenience or architectural style. 

Posted by: Deanna at November 29, 2009 12:08 PM (gxuV2)

A young Muslim told me that minarets were examples of the Muslim penis and to be honored.  That was my last visit to his convenience store. 

Posted by: Fish at November 29, 2009 07:11 AM (6mfq0)

148
The insidious and well-funded efforts of the seditious Muslim Brotherhood under the nonprofit guise of CAIR—the Council of American Islamic Relations— fully support the international jihad against the United States, with the goal of eliminating and destroying American society from within. They hope to accomplish this through terrorist activities, fraud, and infiltration of our political and intelligence systems.

Posted by: sickinmass at November 29, 2009 07:12 AM (g7J39)

149

I'm fine with it, because the Minaret = Swastika (both symbols of intolerant, murderous thugocracies)

Muslims need to learn a little about pushback.

Posted by: Trump at November 29, 2009 07:19 AM (hK2Ya)

150 The Swiss are treating their Muslim community the way the Muslims around the world have been treating other religions in their lands since before the Crusades... and through to this very day. It's not like the Swiss Calvinists are murdering Muslim schoolgirls, or assassinating schoolteachers, now is it? Hell, they're not even beating up non-Calvinists in Brooklyn. The demand that we must honor Muslim religious rights is pure Alinskyism, a tired attempt to use our own convictions against us. It is on a par with demanding we honor a bank robber's right to keep and bear arms.

Posted by: Richard McEnroe at November 29, 2009 07:22 AM (6QCui)

151 > Tell me where you fall on this issue. Since Islam is a political movement, as well as a religion, they're fair game for political action.

Posted by: Comrade Arthur at November 29, 2009 07:27 AM (j2IUb)

152

Religious tolerance need not be a suicide pact.

Posted by: Rodent Liberation Front at November 29, 2009 07:38 AM (dQdrY)

153 unknown jane: It's true, there is no God-given right to be a pain in the ass. Even though there are some people who seem to be convinced of it. Interrupting Super Bowl Sunday would be damn near lethal in a lot of communities around here...

While we're still talking about Muslims being treated "fairly", how about making them fairly abide by the same "fair" restrictions that the ACLU foists on Christian congregations?

Posted by: exdem13 at November 29, 2009 07:39 AM (lYKj1)

154 The problem here is that Islam is intolerant of other religions.  There is NO islamic country where other religions do not have some form of restriction.

I'll be against what the Swiss have done when anyone can freely build a church in Saudi Arabia.

Posted by: Jack at November 29, 2009 07:42 AM (bvDV5)

155

Minarettes?

 

Those chocolate covered mints you get at the movies?

 

Huh. Seems a bit much to me.

Posted by: Dave in Texas at November 29, 2009 07:43 AM (Wh0W+)

156

Double Standard brought to you by Moderates. 

 

Posted by: Not Quite at November 29, 2009 07:50 AM (Bs8Te)

157 They already have minarets. They simply don't want any more.

I see no problem and agree completely with the restriction.

Posted by: Who Knows at November 29, 2009 07:56 AM (0aQsc)

158 Have the Swiss banned other architectural styles? If so, done deal, no problem.

Muslims shouldn't be given tolerance above all others, that's what leads to Ft. Hood.  We have to stop this crap.  They put special foot basins in the airport for Muslims in Minn, for pete's sake.  Where is that vaunted separation of church and state?

Posted by: Guy Fawkes at November 29, 2009 08:02 AM (DIYmd)

159 I've heard that Swiss Muslims are very, very concerned about restrictions on religious displays, during the holidays, here in America.


Posted by: Who Knows at November 29, 2009 08:07 AM (0aQsc)

160 There are a lot of moderate Muslims, but also many that would become less moderate as "critical mass" is approached, as others have said.

But even current "moderates" ... doesn't Islam allow them to lie to infidels, and deceive them, to further Islamic goals?  The "Trojan horse" approach is acceptable  strategy toward their "noble ends" of subduing the infidels, as I understand it.  It is the sleeper cell approach, and is better recognized sooner rather than later.

Islamic churches that won't separate themselves from CAIR or other radical elements should be scrutinized.

Posted by: bill at November 29, 2009 08:08 AM (nUbAO)

161 What if the sudden trend was to build 300 foot tall crosses atop of churches that dominate the landscape and could be seen for miles around? Or scientologists built 300 foot tall statues of their founder on all their properties? You would hear a lot of people freaking out and demanding restrictions. In many urban locations churches aren't allowed to ring their bells. It's called accommodation to local society. The muzzies will just have to learn how to live with others without trying to dominate them.

Posted by: ray at November 29, 2009 08:09 AM (9+P9E)

162

Why would you tolerate a viper in you child's room?

Posted by: Rodent Liberation Front at November 29, 2009 08:16 AM (dQdrY)

163 Link to thread in one of my old haunts; liberals and lefties short circuiting over this issue.  It's threads like this that got me banned over there...
http://tinyurl.com/y8m2mx5

Posted by: ParisParamus at November 29, 2009 08:23 AM (zL+qc)

164 What is so complicated about the concept of expecting immigrants to pledge their allegiance to and respect the basic traditions of a country they choose to live in?  I am tired of the universal dogma of progressives that the host-countries of millions of immigrants must constantly contort their extant culture so as not to offend the new residents. We rightfully extol tolerance and embracing of foreign differences. Do citizens not also then have the right to expect the same tolerance, even deference, to their culture from people who seek haven in their democratic, humane societies?  I am trying, but I am having a hard time making sense out of any liberal platitudes these days.

Posted by: girlsgonegop at November 29, 2009 08:35 AM (FiIvG)

165

161 -- we've got the 300 ft. cross down here as well.  It's ignored for the most part; a few people have their knickers in a twist about it.  From my pov, the only issue is that it's so big, so close to the road, and not the most attractive cross I've ever seen (pole barn material -- it's a giant pole barn cross, yeah, that's attractive), but it does make for a good landmark when giving directions (you can't miss it after all).

The minarets wouldn't bother me, if that was the be all end all of the thing -- it's what comes after that has been the problem. Radical Islam has a very bad habit of coming in on the coattails of more moderate requests. We are not Switzerland, but using America as an example, we've never had a problem heretofore with putting a  foot down in regards to religions that infringe upon the rights/sensiblities of the majority of the populace (Santeria anyone?).  In many regards radical Islam has infringed upon the majority of the populace's rights/sensiblities, even its safety to conduct life in a manner said populace has become accustomed to.

In an ideal world, where everyone got along in peace, harmony, and cooperation with their fellow men, then I would say banning the minarets would be very wrong.  But as stated above, we do not live in an ideal world and must sometimes do the pragmatic thing.  It is a shame, but it is reality.

Posted by: unknown jane at November 29, 2009 08:43 AM (5/yRG)

166 LGF thinks it's awful.

That alone lets me know what point of view to avoid.

Posted by: Who Knows at November 29, 2009 08:47 AM (0aQsc)

167 Fish,

When I read you still have your 97 year old mother it made me happy.
God bless.

Posted by: Nom de Blog at November 29, 2009 08:47 AM (FqeP1)

168 Not only are we ignoring radicalization, we're supporting it.  The nation's prisons are producing and paroling radical muslims every day, and we're paying for the imams to do it.

Posted by: Ombudsman at November 29, 2009 08:53 AM (y4B2y)

169

Sorry, but Islam doesn't pass the test for religions. In fact, Islam is the polar opposite of everything that a religion should be.

I say this having spent some time around a group of young Iranians in the early '70's.

I was not impressed.

If you adhere to Islam, you need to live somewhere like Saudi Arabia or Iran. Don't spread that crap anywhere else.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy at November 29, 2009 09:06 AM (ZGhSv)

170 @169  

BackwardsBoy, I also had a few Iranian friends prior to the revolution, in the '70's.

They were not especially devout or observant Muslims, having been in the early and wealthy outflux of Iranian immigrants. They seemed essentially western, until I was at their home when a program came on that was about Jews.

Their entire demeanor changed, while they ranted about how devious Jews were and how conniving. When the little paroxysm of hate was over, they appeared slightly abashed, having indulged themselves in it in front of an outsider, which I now knew I was. I was also frightened and wanted to get away as quickly as possible, and not be associated with them.

That is Islam. A veneer in front of outsiders.

Posted by: Who Knows at November 29, 2009 09:22 AM (0aQsc)

171 "On the other, it was a public vote on what is acceptable religious symbolism, which is dangerous and gives me the willies."

At the risk of repeating someone else's comment, (I haven't read them all), this statement is valid only if you accept the premise that Islam is a religion.

But if you view Islam as an imperialist political philosophy masquerading as a religion, then there's no problem.

Posted by: Lord of the Fleas at November 29, 2009 10:01 AM (gsiGC)

172 Islam is much more than a religion.  Anyone who has actually read the Koran knows this.  It is a complete self-contained blueprint for end-to-end social structure of which religion is only one aspect.  The operational outlines of politics, finance, education, war, etc are all dictated as well as spiritual.

Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 29, 2009 10:13 AM (C8YWz)

173 Good for the Swiss.  Hope their car, house, and life insurance are paid up.  Minarets are a symbol of Islamic conquest and domination, nothing more and nothing less.  I imagine there will be fatwas against the Swiss, followed by terrorism and riots as usual.  Note to the Swiss:  Don't count on Obama to help you, he is objectively pro-Muslim.

Posted by: BattleofthePyramids at November 29, 2009 10:19 AM (N36mX)

174 Good on the Swiss for taking a stand against the darkness.  Laura, religious tolerance is only of value when it goes both ways.  That's why Catholics had such a hard time being accepted in America, their forebears back in Europe were half the reason ours left.  They have come around (and overshot, with something like half of self-identifying Catholics believing 0% of what their church teaches).

Islam, however, is incompatable with the idea of tolerance.  They must conquer the world or they are apostates.  I hope we can get our heads out of our collective behinds and pass similar measures here.

Posted by: Methos at November 29, 2009 10:26 AM (zyyJm)

175

It makes no difference.  The Swiss will cave the instant there's a whisper of a threat to their security.  It's not like the country has a long, rich history of integrity in the face of adversity.

It's also a vote on a symbol, and a treatment for one symptom is not a cure.  Just like the rest of the world, the ban is hardly a blow against the real problem they're facing.

Posted by: barbelle at November 29, 2009 10:40 AM (qF8q3)

176 Tell you where I stand ? No problem. Good for the Swiss!


I have pondered this question for quite some time, and I have come to regard islam as a threat to western civilization. Now while I wouldn't be the least sorry to see all of those Athiestic, Hedonistic, Tolerance preaching Euroweenies to be subjugated by people who will chop of their heads for behaving like the typical degenerate libtards they are, the islamists will go too far, as they have demonstrated time and time again.


Islam today is where Christianity was 500 years ago when it was burning people at the stake and torturing them etc. Till Islam evolves into a more moderate and tolerant religion, we should be applying it's own rules to it, and not tolerate it.


Posted by: Diogenes at November 29, 2009 11:20 AM (ou+hP)

177 Islam today is where Christianity was 500 years ago when it was burning people at the stake and torturing them etc

That is an over hyped media myth. The Spanish Inquisition ran for app 800 years and they only executed about 2000 people during that 800 years.

Compare and contrast that to Islam of today. Hell compare and contrast that to any urban area murder rate.

Posted by: Vic at November 29, 2009 11:40 AM (CDUiN)

178

To understand this vote you  must understand the Swiss. This is a classic Swiss passive-aggressive action. "We aren't going to kick your ass, but we will outlaw your aggressive symbol, given the chance to do so without personal exposure."

Can't wait to hear/see the Islamic reaction...

Posted by: Meremortal at November 29, 2009 12:06 PM (+mesW)

179 I applaud the Swiss. They see where Eurabia is headed and they won't stand for it. The Gates of Vienna are now in Zurich!

Posted by: Sgt. Rock at November 29, 2009 12:21 PM (2jp4I)

180 To be completely honest I do not give a flying fck about the Swiss or any Euro country with their multiplying muzz problem. Should've kept their Jews alive and well instead of securing gold fillings yanked out of  mouths to pad the pockets of your nazi masters.Alas, they now have the barbarians inside their gates. Oy the irony.

Posted by: Joooo-ray hoorah at November 29, 2009 12:30 PM (4gZcy)

181 Personally, I'm for anything that's anti-muslim at the risk of being considered a 'bigot'.  This 'religion' is a known source of world-wide violence, oppression of women, and generally pushes societies to stay in the 7th century.  I'd be happy if it were outright-banned, or treated as a freak group instead of an official religion as scientology is in Germany.  I believe we are at war with these animals.  They intend to take over societies by sheer numbers, infiltrating countries and governments by simply moving in and breeding like rabbits.

Posted by: Schlippy at November 29, 2009 12:52 PM (hYq6q)

182 That is an over hyped media myth. The Spanish Inquisition ran for app 800 years and they only executed about 2000 people during that 800 years.

Compare and contrast that to Islam of today. Hell compare and contrast that to any urban area murder rate.

Posted by: Vic at November 29, 2009 04:40 PM (CDUiN)



You are correct, but most people don't know this. It still serves as an example of a more primitive time in the Christian religion. There was a time when wars were fought over denominational differences. Thankfully the religion eventually matured into something that does a better job practicing what it preaches.


Posted by: Diogenes at November 29, 2009 12:52 PM (ou+hP)

183 From a freedoms point of view, it's disconcerting.  But I hate the trappings of Islam enough to be willing to skip that 'freedom' in this case.  My argument wouldn't stand in court, but that's how I feel nonetheless.

Posted by: Schlippy at November 29, 2009 12:56 PM (hYq6q)

184 You are correct, but most people don't know this. It still serves as an example of a more primitive time in the Christian religion. There was a time when wars were fought over denominational differences. Thankfully the religion eventually matured into something that does a better job practicing what it preaches.

It's all the Catholic's fault!

Posted by: Typical Lutheran at November 29, 2009 01:10 PM (zyyJm)

185 You are correct, but most people don't know this. It still serves as an example of a more primitive time in the Christian religion. There was a time when wars were fought over denominational differences. Thankfully the religion eventually matured into something that does a better job practicing what it preaches.

It's all the Lutherans' fault!

Posted by: Typical Catholic at November 29, 2009 01:10 PM (zyyJm)

186

Many of the pictures of campaynes influencing Swiss voters parrot the talking point of religious equality and tolerance.

Here is a picture of the Mosque of Rome and it's minaret:

http://tinyurl.com/yg8o6do

And here is the picture of the Christian Cathedral in Mecca:

Oh! Wait....there aren't any Churches or Cathedrals in Mecca or KSA.  Sorry.  Equality and tolerance for me, but not for thee.

So much for religious equality and tolerance coming from "The Religion of PeaceTM".  Islam is a one way ratchet.

If I were Swiss, I'd say "Yes." to a moratorium on minaret construction and "Hell No!" to construction of any more Mosques.

 

Posted by: Speller at November 29, 2009 01:25 PM (7Ldd7)

187 186, I agree.  When Islamists begin showing tolerance, I will feel more affable to showing them some.  Til then, they can feck off.  Ban the lot!

Posted by: Schlippy at November 29, 2009 01:32 PM (hYq6q)

188 If they'd just stop blasting Islamic prayers from the loudspeakers perched on top of these things, they might find their neighbors more friendly.

Posted by: Jason Coleman at November 29, 2009 01:47 PM (i0Ge7)

189

Does a religion that is a death cult deserve protection? What about Jim Jones and the People's Temple?

How many did Jones kill compared to the number killed or tortured by Islam in a single year?

 

Posted by: No Arab Imperialism at November 29, 2009 01:51 PM (f2QL0)

190 Sounds like a zoning issue.

Posted by: Gus Bailey at November 29, 2009 01:53 PM (sQDbT)

191

The winds of change are blowing in the US too.  Incumbents are on the way out and citizen politicians are going to take the House in a landslide come 2010.  The newly elected folks would vote for something like this, but the senate and muzzy in the WH would nix it.

www.GOOOH.com

 

 

Posted by: RushBabe at November 29, 2009 02:01 PM (LKkE8)

192

Good for the Swiss. I'm buying chocolate tomorrow!  I think some of it is a tourism issue. You go to Switzerland to see Alpine gingerbread houses, not muslim phallic wish fullfillment. 

Posted by: vivi at November 29, 2009 03:11 PM (knNJg)

193 Some -isms cannot be tolerated in a free society.  The inherent evil of them is self-evident.  America has found many -isms unAmerican, but is kneeling before this hate-filled death-worshipping stoneage cult, its rituals, and its intolerance of Americans.  Islam is the worst of all we've faced through history because it has a religious component that sanctifies deception, slavery, and murder to subjugate others against their will.  Submission and absolute domination is the muslim goal.  Eradication of islam should be our's.  Islam is lame, is evil, is for fools.

Posted by: twolaneflash at November 29, 2009 03:24 PM (svkhS)

194 Instead of banning minarets, they should be banning the immigration of those who would want to build them in the first place.

Communists are banned from immigrating to the United States.  If you're a self-avowed communist then we don't want you here.  Anyone who does attempt to immigrate must attest that they are NOT a communist.  Of course that doesn't stop communists from falsely attesting, but it does go a long way towards preventing them from being public about their adherence to that evil ideology.

Switzerland should do the same thing with Muslims.  Preserve the religious freedom of Swiss citizens to choose to become Muslims or to raise their children in that religion, but stop Muslims from invading their country and attempting to subvert it as they are doing elsewhere. 

In other words, Muslims born in Switzerland or Swiss citizens who convert to Islam will be left in peace, but Muslims from foreign lands will be prevented from immigrating. 


Posted by: Lee at November 29, 2009 03:40 PM (TcVyy)

195 Laura, you have nothing to get the willies about. Islam is not a religion, but a totalitarian political ideology and mass psychosis dressed up as a religion. Banning its minarets would be akin to Americans deciding against giving the Communist Party USA building/zoning permits to erect giant statues of Lenin, Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot in our cities.

Here are a couple of great lines from the cover story "Jihad, Inc." in this week's National Review: (read the whole thing!!)

"Simply put, radical Islam, though operating under the guise of religion and claiming to work in religion's behalf, is less a religious movement than a revolutionary ideology akin to 20th-century totalitarian creeds like Nazism and Communism."

"Interestingly, the concept of the Caliphate is nowhere to be found in either the Koran or the Sunna; it bears more resemblance to the perfected societies dreamed of by Western dictators."

And, in the wake of the Ft. Hood massacre, I'll toss in a couple more excerpts---but if you're an insomniac, by all means DO NOT read any further!

"Prison officials....estimated in the mid-1990s that between 10 and 20 percent of the nation's 1.5 million inmates--who are disproportionately black--identified themselves as Muslims, and some 30,000 black Americans were reported to convert to Islam in prison every year."

Abdurahman Alamoudi, currently serving 23 years in prison for terrorism activities, was formerly a State Department "goodwill ambassador" in the Middle East and a U.S. Information Agency speaker abroad, and "evidently enjoyed unimpeded access to the White House under Presidents Clinton and Bush (43)....Most important, he founded...the American Muslim Armed Forces and Veterans Affairs Council and established it as the exclusive authority for endorsing Muslim chaplains in all branches of the U.S. armed forces, enabling it to place extremists in the military virtually at will."

Posted by: Kathy from Kansas at November 29, 2009 05:54 PM (eBpsW)

196

"So, what's the big deal? The non-Muslim Swiss don't want to be blasted by loudspeakered calls to prayer from Muslim minarets."

Obama said the call to prayer is the most beautifull sound in the world.

Posted by: davod at November 29, 2009 08:43 PM (GUZAT)

197

There's a reason why people in the West don't generally need to try to ban steeples and other "Christian" architecture.  Christians invariably do way more good than harm, and don't work to make their neighbors miserable.  And if some town did ban Christians from building church buildings, the Christians would meet in their homes, rather than go about murdering their neighbors in a rage.  They would also work within the law to convince people to reverse the decision.  Islam, on the other hand... 

Frankly the US constitution is a flawed document in that the founders didn't feel it was necessary to put in a ban on Islam just in case.  They couldn't imagine we'd be dumb enough to give those people a friendly environment.  As far as I'm concerned, building a mosque or any attendant architecture thereof is little different from satanists building some vile alter for their depraved beliefs.  Some things go beyond what a reasonable society can tolerate.  Property rights are great and all that, but there have to be limits - to paraphrase the old saying, property rights are not a suicide pact.  My neighbor shouldn't be allowed to hang up rotting animal corpses next door to stink up the neighborhood - neither should muslims be allowed to contaminate the public space with their belief system, which is equally odius.

Posted by: Reactionary at November 30, 2009 02:57 AM (P+HSn)

198 Aw, she gots the willies... How progressive. A woman, who would be treated as less than an animal by islam, is on the fence. About religious "symbolism" regarding that which is not a religion. Got it. Probably on the fence about rape too. On the one hand, it's pretty nasty, But on the other hand, guys need love too... However, mission complete. 200+ posts!

Posted by: JS at November 30, 2009 03:42 AM (bMs0C)

199

On the other, it was a public vote on what is acceptable religious symbolism, which is dangerous and gives me the willies.

This is Switzerland.

I've no idea if they have any such thing as seperation of church and state.

Posted by: Entropy at November 30, 2009 04:26 AM (IsLT6)

200 They don't.

If the majority of a Canton wants to ban Baptists, they had better damned well move. The Swiss vote on everything ... have been doing so for several hundred years.

They have several Cantonal Democracies ( in  the full sense of the word ) and a very loose confederation document.


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