April 29, 2009

Now It Can Be Told: Tom Friedman Says Bush Did Good
— DrewM

Except he doesn't mention Bush (other than as a possible war crimes defendant) and praises Obama for making the tough and wise calls.

Why wasn't there another attack on the US after 9/11? Because we did what it took to get good intel and wait for it...invaded Iraq (safe link to Commentary)

I believe that the most important reason there has not been another 9/11, besides the improved security and intelligence, is that Al Qaeda is primarily focused on defeating America in the heart of the Arab-Muslim world — particularly in Iraq. Al Qaeda knows that if it can destroy the U.S. effort (still a long shot) to build a decent, modernizing society in Iraq, it will undermine every U.S. ally in the region.

Conversely, if we, with Iraqis, defeat them by building any kind of decent, pluralistic society in the heart of their world, it will be a devastating blow.

Apparently somebody decided to do these things. Friedman doesn't seem to be quite sure who lead the effort to do all of that but he's pretty happy that they were done.

This lack of acknowledgment for what Bush did post 9/11, even after Bush is gone and Obama is safely in the White House is intellectually dishonest and childish. Friedman can't bring himself to say, "Of course we shouldn't prosecute Bush, he did his job for God's sake". No, liberal orthodoxy forces him to tiptoe around it and somehow find a way to praise Obama in the process because His 'contribution' must be equal or greater than He Who Shall Not Be Named.

Posted by: DrewM at 04:30 AM | Comments (182)
Post contains 286 words, total size 2 kb.

1 WARMONGER!

Posted by: Farmer_Joe at April 29, 2009 04:37 AM (z4es9)

2 I once went to the middle east! The woman were covered up head to toe, they were so sexy! I'm a feminist! Bush is bad and I saw a bird in the air this morning, it was white and pooped!

Posted by: Naomi Wolf at April 29, 2009 04:38 AM (OkrJ4)

3 Will honest cloud/erg/et al heads explode?

Posted by: nikkolai at April 29, 2009 04:42 AM (4EBUu)

4 Who would have thought that taking the fight to our enemies in their part of the world would be effective.

Posted by: huerfano at April 29, 2009 04:46 AM (knHvu)

5 The good news is the Bush Legacy has nowhere else to go but up.

The bad news is Obama's ratings have nowhere to go but down.

Wait.   Both of these are good news.

Will honest cloud/erg/et al heads explode?

First rule of progressive debate: When on weak ground, change the subject.
Second rule of progressive debate: If first rule is ineffective just attack the messenger.

Welcome to Wingnut Club Mr. Freidman.


Posted by: WTF Capital Investments at April 29, 2009 04:50 AM (GtYrq)

6

He is obviously giving kudos to our secretary of state for voting to go to war and our speaker of the house for tacitly approving harsh interrogation methods. If is not for them Bush would have really screwed it up.

Posted by: robtron12 at April 29, 2009 04:55 AM (gue+Q)

7 When the inevitable Islamic attacks resume, guys like Friedman will cover for Obama's weakness by blaming Bush's adventurous meddling in Iraq for inspiring the jihadis.

Posted by: kenneth at April 29, 2009 04:56 AM (ckQml)

8 Fortunately, Friedman isn't a historian, just a hack. The historians will write Bush's legacy and use things like "facts" to do it.

Posted by: Roy at April 29, 2009 05:01 AM (cB77O)

9 7 When the inevitable Islamic attacks resume, guys like Friedman will cover for Obama's weakness by blaming Bush's adventurous meddling in Iraq for inspiring the jihadis.

All attacks in the future, regardless of the perps, will be blamed on "white, right wing extremists." Did you not get the memo? The media did.

Posted by: shibumi at April 29, 2009 05:06 AM (OKZrE)

10 This makes the case that Friedman was a lying hypocrite all these years when the Iraq war/occupation was in progress.  He writes for a liberal audience and a liberal audience only wanted red meat during the Bush years.

American security and the lives of a few brown people are secondary to Mr. Freidman getting his payday.

Posted by: oLD gUY at April 29, 2009 05:07 AM (n1yDn)

11

Homer: Not a bear in sight.  The Bear Patrol must be working like a charm.
      
Lisa: That's specious reasoning, Dad.
 
Homer: Thank you, dear.

Lisa: By your logic I could claim that this rock keeps tigers away.
 
Homer: Oh, how does it work?

Lisa: It doesn't work.
 
Homer: Uh-huh.

Lisa: It's just a stupid rock.
 
Homer: Uh-huh.

Lisa: But I don't see any tigers around, do you?
 
[Homer thinks of this, then pulls out some money]

Homer: Lisa, I want to buy your rock.

[Lisa refuses at first, then takes the exchange]

Correlation does not imply causation

Posted by: Dominion at April 29, 2009 05:07 AM (OFDHl)

12 Who would have thought that taking the fight to our enemies in their part of the world would be effective.

Posted by: huerfano at April 29, 2009

Uneducated redneck toothless hillbillies who don't even understand that Iraq had nothing to do with the 911 attacks.

Posted by: honest cloud at April 29, 2009 05:07 AM (hOPQH)

13

I believe that the most important reason there has not been another 9/11, besides the improved security and intelligence, is that Al Qaeda is primarily focused on defeating America in the heart of the Arab-Muslim world — particularly in Iraq.

Been saying this for years.  One of the reasons that Bush decided to go to Iraq was to draw al Qaeda into a battle on our terms.  We had to fight them somewhere and the choices were invade Pakistan, fight them here or pic a third battlefield. He could never come right out and say this but it was pretty obvious.

Nice to see the msm finally catching on.

Posted by: JackStraw at April 29, 2009 05:09 AM (VW9/y)

14 Actually, this is really nice to see. The Bush Legacy is beginning to become clear. Many people who leave cults do so in stages. Some in the MSM have to be thinking "what have we wrought?" but they cannot let go all at once. That makes for a hard landing. Expect to see more commentary like this as the Bush years are reviewed in light of the present.

Posted by: Big Daddy at April 29, 2009 05:10 AM (ZB+Vj)

15 Hmmmm.

Watching Sibelius on FoxNews right now.

I never really gave it much thought before but what's up with the line of people behind the speaker at the podium?  Do they serve a specific purpose or are they supposed to be some sort of political eye-candy?  Is there an implied "we support the person speaking" sort of thing?

I'm sure good bladder control is essential for this job.

And a willingness to feign interest in whatever subject is being discussed.

Posted by: memomachine at April 29, 2009 05:11 AM (WXcTw)

16 Have we all thanked Bush for keeping us safe since 9/11?

There has been an effort underway for a few months to collect signatures and letters
of appreciation for the Bush library. Over 80,000 people have thanked him so far.

M1A, the organizers of this effort, would like to submit the letters and signatures to the GWB Presidential Library on September 11, 2011, the ten year anniversary of 9/11.

Posted by: Nice Deb at April 29, 2009 05:11 AM (MHx40)

17 @13 and don't forget having bases in Iraq and Afghanistan and (a then friendly) Pakistan makes containing Iran much easier.

Posted by: Big Daddy at April 29, 2009 05:15 AM (ZB+Vj)

18 We had to fight them somewhere and the choices were invade Pakistan, fight them here or pic a third battlefield.

Posted by: JackStraw at April 29, 2009

So I guess the Iraqi's drew the short straw, in spite of no presence of al Qaeda and being an enemy of al Qaeda, and as a result had their country destroyed, millions displaced, a few hundred thousand killed, tens of thousands imprisoned(many tortured).

That is some sick twisted logic.


Posted by: honest cloud at April 29, 2009 05:18 AM (hOPQH)

19 I remember when From Beirut to Jerusalem came out and everyone was atwitter at how sharp this Friedman fellow was. I read the book and came away deeply unimpressed: Tom Friedman is the journalistic version of the concern-troll. He packages the glaringly obvious with cliche and serves it up as trenchant foreign-policy commentary. His shtick is so obvious once you recognize it that he becomes completely unreadable afterwards. (Come to think of it, he shares this characteristic with the other New York Times teeth-gnasher, Krugman.)

Michael Totten is the go-to guy for insightful, centrist commentary. Michael Yon and Bill Roggio provide us military geeks with the strategic stuff.

Posted by: Monty at April 29, 2009 05:20 AM (/0a60)

20 Uneducated redneck toothless hillbillies who don't even understand that Iraq had nothing to do with the 911 attacks.

Disclaimer: I'm 100% non-bigoted against inbred doofus hillbillies, and 100% support increased funding for redneck dental care.

/HC

Posted by: IllTemperedCur at April 29, 2009 05:22 AM (kLZ8u)

21 I'm sure good bladder control is essential for this job.

And a willingness to feign interest in whatever subject is being discussed.

Well, the hours are good.  However, you have to look good in a suit so that leaves me out.  Dang!

Posted by: oLD gUY at April 29, 2009 05:23 AM (n1yDn)

22
That is some sick twisted logic.

And you should know sick twisted logic with all the contortions you do defending Obama's insane spending spree. Not to mention your love for Che Guevara.

Posted by: D-ling at April 29, 2009 05:24 AM (ick02)

23 Fellow morons: please ignore the concern-troll and go about your normal business. I will dispatch my associates Guido and Fat Tony to have a word with honest cloud; while he is recuperating in the long-term care wing of the nearest critical-care facility, he will have ample time to ponder his foolishness. So: just let Guido and Fat Tony do their work, ignore the "honest cloud" doofus, and focus your attentions elsewhere.

Posted by: Monty at April 29, 2009 05:24 AM (/0a60)

24 Well, yeah. If we had to take the fight to them (a terrorist group without traditional borders), we might as well choose a country that was a) continually interfering with human rights b) run by a dictator and c) that didn't have nukes and/or a friendly government (i.e. the Pakis). Iraq was the natural choice. Though, in hindsight, Iran would have been ok, too.

Posted by: In Exile at April 29, 2009 05:25 AM (8nOHU)

25 a few hundred thousand killed

No.  Just stop.

Posted by: bunny boy at April 29, 2009 05:26 AM (YsSn7)

26   Tommy's just running up a trial balloon to see if his fellow liberals will genuflect.

Posted by: GarandFan at April 29, 2009 05:30 AM (C3okI)

27 Islamofascists wanted a war and would prosecute it not matter what we did.
They wanted to hit and run back in hiding. The only logical thing to do was to fight back on their turf, where they would sustain the most damage, and bring them out into the open. Saddam should have been taken out in the first Gulf War. He could still have avoided it by capitulating as Qaddafi, he didn't.

If there is ever to be peace in the Muslim world the fascist leader dynamic has to be broken and a government responsive to it's people that is majority Muslim must be given a chance. The Iraq war was not only the right thing to do, it was the best option if there is ever to be peace in the middle east. Perhaps it will fail in that regard but not trying at all is just to accept failure. We already no negotiation doesn't work.

There is the constant harangue that our "arrogance"  causes a significant number of Muslims to hate us and that's probably true to a point. But what is never mentioned is how there is a significant number who hate us because we are supposed to be the people who fight for justice and freedom but allow the Mullahs and sheiks to behave like little Caligulas.  They don't hate us for helping, but for not helping enough.

Posted by: Rocks at April 29, 2009 05:32 AM (3RHzM)

28 No, musn't give credit to Bush....its was Obama, in his sheer awesomeness, he travelled back in time in his wayback machine and persuaded Bush go into Iraq after a delightful afternoon of crumpets and tea. Silly non-believers.

Posted by: Nico at April 29, 2009 05:33 AM (F6Jj4)

29

Roy @ 8

 Fortunately, Friedman isn't a historian, just a hack. The historians will write Bush's legacy and use things like "facts" to do it.

Not so fast, Roy. Have you taken a look at the textbooks the the children are taught from, lately. Indoctrination, not education. Facts? Facts are what leftys say they are.

Posted by: maddogg at April 29, 2009 05:33 AM (OlN4e)

30

So I guess the Iraqi's drew the short straw, in spite of no presence of al Qaeda and being an enemy of al Qaeda, and as a result had their country destroyed, millions displaced, a few hundred thousand killed, tens of thousands imprisoned(many tortured).

That is some sick twisted logic.

Right. Except for that whole, violation of the rules of an armistice means the resumption of hostilities thing.

Posted by: kidney at April 29, 2009 05:34 AM (FgUFX)

Posted by: Buddy Bizarre at April 29, 2009 05:36 AM (YacaW)

32 One might think that Iraq under Saddam Hussein was the very definition of a short straw.  Probably should the Kurds or the marsh arabs or the shiites about that.  But hey, the man made trains run on time (not really, but he sure could kill lots of people.) 

Or one could lay the war at the feet of Saddam Hussein himself, who defied UN resolution after UN resolution (it's always seemed funny that the people who are big believers in "international law" never get upset about the likes of Saddam thumbing his nose at them.  They must have some other agenda.) 

Or one could lay the war at the feet of the international community, who could not muster the will to actually enforce their resolutions. That one is easy to explain since France, Germany, Russia, and various independent actors within the UN were actually up to their necks in the "Oil for Food" Scandal.  So much for principled opposition, there was a great deal of money to be made. 

Or maybe, one could read some history and find out that regime change in Iraq became official US policy in 1998.  The President at that time was Bill Clinton.  He signed that bill.  The fact that he signed it without ever considering doing something about it just makes him feckless and/or cynical. 

But, I guess it's just a whole lot easier to repeat an NPR talking point that most Americans think Saddam Hussein had something to do with the man made disasters of 9/11, then produce the bloody shirt of 4500 American soldiers. 



As an aside, and I know I shouldn't be, but I am amazed how people who are so obviously fucking stupid, casually throw around the toothless redneck insults.  Kind of like how all those college kids regurgitating what their "Social Justice" professor tells them, think they are speaking truth to power. 

Posted by: sears poncho at April 29, 2009 05:36 AM (uj/0b)

33 If we had to take the fight to them (a terrorist group without traditional borders), we might as well choose a country that was a) continually interfering with human rights b) run by a dictator and c) that didn't have nukes and/or a friendly government (i.e. the Pakis). Iraq was the natural choice.

Don't forget that, pace lyingfuckface cloud's baseless assertions in other comments, there was significant connection between al Qaeda and Iraq. Despite his supposed 'secular' credentials, Saddam was in no way an 'enemy' of al Qaeda, or Islamist terrorists in general.

Posted by: Waterhouse at April 29, 2009 05:36 AM (/sh1v)

34

Honest Cloud, you seem to be forgetting that Iraq was a problem and needed to be dealt with. 17  UN resolutions stating that and no one with the balls to do anything about it until GWB.

Posted by: TC at April 29, 2009 05:42 AM (DYJjQ)

35 "there was significant connection between al Qaeda and Iraq."

Posted by: Waterhouse at April 29, 2009

This is a lie. Posted by a liar.

But please, by all means keep it up. It appeals to the GOP base or at least what's left of it.

It is exactly because of horseshit like this that the GOP has shrunk to a regional minority of the south. Specter yesterday and who knows what Snowe is thinking. She ain't pleased.

Posted by: honest cloud at April 29, 2009 05:45 AM (hOPQH)

36 Friedman?  Is this not the same man who told Obama that if he plans to have a sit down with Iran's Ahmadinajhad, he would need Tony Soprano (not Big Bird) standing over his shoulder tapping a baseball bat in his hand - someone like Dick Cheney?

Isn't he the same person who came out swinging saying that we need a stable, democratic Iraq to force the middle east into open society submission and justified the war.  Then called it wrong because it was for the wrong WMD reasons and then support it again now because it kept them terrorists off US soil?

This guy should start writing those delicious menu blurbs for waffle house.

Posted by: BinTN at April 29, 2009 05:45 AM (xnRDr)

37

Honest Cloud, you seem to be forgetting that Iraq was a problem and needed to be dealt with. 17  UN resolutions stating that and no one with the balls stupidity to do anything invade and occupy it until GWB.

Posted by: TC at April 29, 2009 10:42 AM

Posted by: honest cloud at April 29, 2009 05:48 AM (hOPQH)

38

There are times when the adults on the world stage insist upon bringing a despotic, megalomaniacal, murderous regime into the modern realm of calm discourse and diplomacy.

9-11 was the wake-up call to all peace-loving peoples that there are some folks who, for whatever reasons, embrace death and seek it for everyone who disagrees with them and their false beliefs. To allow these obviously insane areas of the world to unite and pose a threat is unacceptable.

The Iraq war was the Right Thing To Do.

Ask anyone who has been there.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy at April 29, 2009 05:49 AM (ZGhSv)

39

Uneducated redneck toothless hillbillies who don't even understand that Iraq had nothing to do with the 911 attacks.

Hysterical.

When the United States entered World War II, the first boots on the ground went to....

want to guess, dipshit?

 Algeria

Which of course had nothing to do with Pearl Harbor.

 

Good grief are you stupid.

Posted by: Jay at April 29, 2009 05:50 AM (/ZX77)

40 He's not praising Bush, he's praising Friedman for figuring out this accidental state of affairs in the Middle East. But he saves special praise for His Lordship's compromise: send out conflicting signals while actually doing nothing. Nobody has any idea what that 'wascawwy' Obama will do which confuses and freezes both our enemies and Obama's enemies.

Posted by: t-bird at April 29, 2009 05:52 AM (FcR7P)

41 This is a lie. Posted by a liar.

Uh oh, lyingfuckface cloud's ignorance revealed.

Oh no! Lyingdipshit cloud's talking points demolished.

Want some more to put in your pipe and smoke, asswipe?

Posted by: Waterhouse at April 29, 2009 05:54 AM (/sh1v)

42 And with 35 honest cloud has transitioned smoothly and predictably into "stupid on purpose" mode.  Pretty early in the thread, though - must have hit close to home.

As to Snowe and Collins?  You're welcome to them.

Posted by: DocJ at April 29, 2009 05:54 AM (g8ibn)

43 He Who Shall Not Be Named.

That reminds me, I need to find my Republicans for Voldemort shirt. 

Posted by: alexthechick at April 29, 2009 05:55 AM (SHHaV)

44 "there was significant connection between al Qaeda and Iraq."

Posted by: Waterhouse at April 29, 2009

This is a lie. Posted by a liar.

http://tinyurl.com/3xlm4t

http://tinyurl.com/7d7hx

Posted by: Nice Deb at April 29, 2009 05:55 AM (MHx40)

45 Gosh, you're fast Waterhouse.

Posted by: Nice Deb at April 29, 2009 05:58 AM (MHx40)

46
Plastic turkey!!!

Sixteen words!!!

Posted by: honest clod at April 29, 2009 05:58 AM (ick02)

47

Speaking of linkages.

http://tinyurl.com/cqerwc

"Japan's Nikkei newspaper last week quoted unnamed sources from "Western intelligence organizations" saying they are investigating a suspicious ship that traveled recently from North Korea to Iran, carrying "several dozen tons of enriched uranium hidden in its cargo." (As a result of the Iranian-North Korean alliance, I'm told, Japan increasingly shares intelligence data with several Middle Eastern countries.)"

Got it from Carl in Jerusalem. 

Wonderful.  In the end, there will be only uranium shipments to Iran? 

Posted by: Kratos (on the back of Gaia, scaling Mt Olympus) at April 29, 2009 05:59 AM (9hSKh)

48

Ok, couldn't sleep, so came back here to drink my coffee and enjoy the late morning, and there' this guy on here totally spoiling my buzz.  Is honest cloud a "true Christian conservative"?  For me, the door can't hit Snowe or Collins on the ass fast enough, and they can drag cloud with them far from the conservative republican party.

Posted by: katybeth at April 29, 2009 05:59 AM (EjA6p)

49 Jay @ 45
Don't you remember the goal post move by the MSM when the report came out? It went from there is no coordination, to there is no "operational" coordination.  Also, the czechs have NEVER backed off their assertion that Iraqi intelligence operatives were meting with Al Qaeda. 

Posted by: sears poncho at April 29, 2009 05:59 AM (uj/0b)

50 a few hundred thousand killed

a few hundred thousand killed


a few hundred thousand killed

Where you at, Cloud?  I await your source.

Posted by: bunny boy at April 29, 2009 06:00 AM (YsSn7)

51
The piece of shit commenting as 'honest cloud' is an admitted kool-aid drinking moonbat. But it likes to come here and offer advice on how we can win future elections.


Posted by: D-ling at April 29, 2009 06:02 AM (ick02)

52

When Bill Clinton indited Bin Laden for being a terrorist (because the best way to fight terrorists who want to kill you and everyone you love is sic a lawyer on them) one of the counts of the inditment was that he worked with Saddam Hussein to develop and train Al Queda in the use of chemical and biological weapons.

So was Bill Clinton deluded too?

Posted by: Have Blue at April 29, 2009 06:02 AM (mV+es)

53 Have Blue @ 53

So was Bill Clinton deluded too?


Shut up.  Everyone knows bad history began with the selection (see what I did there) of BushHilterMcChimpyBurton.  Fortunately, good history has started once again.  I'm thinking Year Zero of Obama's Kampuchea!!!!

Posted by: honest cloud sock puppet at April 29, 2009 06:05 AM (uj/0b)

54

Third, if the Americans' aims behind these wars are religious and economic, the aim is also to serve the Jews' petty state and divert attention from its occupation of Jerusalem and murder of Muslims there. The best proof of this is their eagerness to destroy Iraq, the strongest neighboring Arab state, and their endeavor to fragment all the states of the region such as Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Sudan into paper statelets and through their disunion and weakness to guarantee Israel's survival and the continuation of the brutal crusade occupation of the Peninsula.

On that basis, and in compliance with Allah's order, we issue the following fatwa to all Muslims:

The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies -- civilians and military -- is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque and the holy mosque [Mecca] from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim

 

See if you can tell me who said this and when he said it, honest clod, you paste eating retard.  And then tell me what the signifigance of his mentioning Iraq and Sudan might be.

clod, despite what you think from listening to Olbermann, you are dealing with people here who are far better informed and frankly smarter than you.  You are making a fool out of yourself everytime you open your piehole.

Your constant bleating that the Republican party is dwindling is nothing more than msm drivel and bespeaks your complete lack of historical context.  It was not that long ago, 2004 to be exact, that the conventional wisdom was that the Republican party had a permanent majority.  Conventional wisdom may be conventional, it is anything but wise.  Today's conventional wisdom is no exception.

Grow up, educate yourself or continue to be that stupid little person that normal people point at and laugh.

Posted by: JackStraw at April 29, 2009 06:06 AM (VW9/y)

55

"Correlation does not imply causation"

Screw you!  Yes it does!  The science is settled!

Wait, what were we talking about?

Nevermind.

Posted by: Al Gore at April 29, 2009 06:06 AM (q/kmn)

56

The only reason that the US intelligence community gives to refute the Czech's assertion Atta was in Prague was that his cell phone was used here in the US during the period they say he was in Europe. That kind of "alibi" would be laughed out of court if there was no independent support for it. (Your honor I couldn't have killed my that man in Boston because my cell phone made a two minute call in Manhattan at about the same time. My room mate you say? Uh, no uh, couldn't have been him, he doesn't know how to dial a cell phone.)

Posted by: Have Blue at April 29, 2009 06:09 AM (mV+es)

57

Honest Cloud (and apt nome de blog if there ever was one, because a cloud is the only thing keeping it's little ears separated) is providing great amusement to those of us who actually keep up with current events beyond what the MSM feeds us.

Please keep it up. We eat uninformed moonbats like you for breakfast and don't even burp.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy at April 29, 2009 06:12 AM (ZGhSv)

58

Jay @ 45
Don't you remember the goal post move by the MSM when the report came out?

Right. When Clinton was President the idea that "Iraqi President Saddam Hussein has offered asylum to bin Laden, who openly supports Iraq against the Western powers."

Was not so ridiculous. Yet when Republicans are in power, if there are no pictures with associated tape recordings/videos (which people like this dishonest douche would say were doctored anyway) of OBL & Saddam reviewing diagrams of the WTC, then there was no connection what so ever!

Posted by: Jay at April 29, 2009 06:16 AM (/ZX77)

59

There is the constant harangue that our "arrogance"  causes a significant number of Muslims to hate us and that's probably true to a point.

It isn't our arrogance that causes orthodox Muslims to hate us.  It is that we are not Muslim that causes them to hate us.  Mohammad's teachings instruct and command them to either convert or kill us. 

Posted by: katya at April 29, 2009 06:17 AM (oRJZj)

60 Friedman was always pedantic and unwilling to say (in collumn) who is responsible for what he's saying.
Not admitting what it is that you are actually saying while kinda saying something that everyone knows without committing to it is how you get rich writings columns and books that noone reads.

Posted by: Douglas at April 29, 2009 06:18 AM (uU+Ss)

61 It isn't our arrogance that causes orthodox Muslims to hate us.  It is that we are not Muslim that causes them to hate us.  Mohammad's teachings instruct and command them to either convert or kill us.

Well..."hate" is an inaccurate word. Muslims use the term dar al Islam (house of Islam) and dar al Harb (house of War, or non-Muslims). Some interpret dar al Harb as "house of Discord" rather than "house of War", but honest historical readings of both Sunni and Shi'a commentaries argue against this. Islam grows by conquest. There is no real tradition of evangelical conversion, as in the Christian tradition; Islam grows by subjugating and then converting the subjugated by force.

I think most Muslims do not "hate" us. They do, however, aim to subjugate us sooner or later. Islam is often interpreted (incorrectly) as "peace"; the correct interpretation of this word is "submission".

I am one of those benighted neocons who think that Islam is fundamentally incompatible with liberal enlightened government. The goals and aims of the two systems are simply not reconcilable.

Posted by: Monty at April 29, 2009 06:26 AM (/0a60)

62

One has to feel for poor honest cloud: a similarly disingenuous and retarded guy like Friedman makes good coin writing for the NYT and the best hc can do - in between marathon wanking sessions in his folks' basement - is come here and repeatedly get bitch-slapped silly.  Nobody said life was fair!

Posted by: Bill Carson at April 29, 2009 06:27 AM (hoGdU)

63 Hey Dumbfucks,

The 911 hijackers were trained in Florida.

Do you all agree we should have attacked and invaded Florida due to their connections with al Qaeda?

Posted by: honest cloud at April 29, 2009 06:34 AM (hOPQH)

64 I am one of those benighted neocons who think that Islam is fundamentally incompatible with liberal enlightened government. The goals and aims of the two systems are simply not reconcilable.

I think a great many muslims would say the same, only using different words.

Kinda like the how lincoln was a muslim thing.

Posted by: Douglas at April 29, 2009 06:34 AM (uU+Ss)

65 HC,

Maybe we should attack the immigration policies that made it okay for us to be responsible for training the enemies of the state, but who cares, in your world Hiss was innocent, and the Rosenbergs were scapegoats.

Posted by: Douglas at April 29, 2009 06:35 AM (uU+Ss)

66

"Hey Dumbfucks,

The 911 hijackers were trained in Florida."

Quit while you're way behind, you dolt.

Posted by: Bill Carson at April 29, 2009 06:35 AM (hoGdU)

67

I was with those uneducated redneck toothless hillbillies when they blundered into Berlin. And Paris.

And Tokyo. And Rome. And Monterey and Veracruz.

And Yorktown.

They was the sound of guns, and dang if they dint ride right to 'em.

Sleep tight tonight, gentle 'Cloud. The toothless will protect you. Always have. Always will. And this is ashes on your tongue.

 

 

Posted by: Capt. Lou-ie Rennow at April 29, 2009 06:36 AM (zFDqJ)

68

Well..."hate" is an inaccurate word.

Three Christians killed in Iraq: http://tinyurl.com/clzkmu

Pakistan: Six churches attacked and Christian homes burned by Taliban: http://tinyurl.com/c7hsor

Two Iranian Christian women in prison: http://tinyurl.com/ddfyo7

More here: http://tinyurl.com/eqkm3


 

 

Posted by: katya at April 29, 2009 06:41 AM (oRJZj)

69
64,  OMF'nG was that retarded.

HC, you said you graduated from a Big Ten university.  If it was Ohio State, please let me know now so I can be sure to never send them another dime.

Posted by: bunny boy at April 29, 2009 06:42 AM (YsSn7)

70

Do you all agree we should have attacked and invaded Florida due to their connections with al Qaeda?

Can't do that now because the al Queda "Manchurian candidate" is now your President.  We should apologize and offer to return their flight school tuition money.

Posted by: Jim King at April 29, 2009 06:43 AM (NW0iD)

71 I must run.

But please, please by all means keep trying to justify the war in Iraq. It's already cost you the White House, 60 House seats, and 15 Senate Seats.

And just yesterday another Senate seat because a 30 year GOP Senator couldn't support you lunatics any more.

How low can you go before you recognize you have a problem?

Posted by: honest cloud at April 29, 2009 06:44 AM (hOPQH)

72 I do recognize that not all Muslims are "orthodox" or "extreme" or whatever.  Many of them, perhaps even most of them, are like your average Christian.  They just want to live and let live.  They are, however, the ones who don't delve too deeply into the teachings of Muhammad that command them to convert or kill.  And they are not the ones that are the government leaders.

Posted by: katya at April 29, 2009 06:46 AM (oRJZj)

73 How low can you go before you recognize you have a problem?

Sweet irony.   But anyhow, goodbye, douche.

Posted by: bunny boy at April 29, 2009 06:46 AM (YsSn7)

74 Anyway, to paraphrase Bogart, there are some sections of the United States I would advise you not to invade — and that would be, basically, all of them.

That is a Great LINE!  (stolen from insty)

Posted by: Douglas at April 29, 2009 06:46 AM (uU+Ss)

75

But please, please by all means keep trying to justify the war in Iraq. It's already cost you the White House, 60 House seats, and 15 Senate Seats.

Hilarious.

Um, so why hasn't the war been defunded and ended?

How then do you explain the resounding Republican victory in 2004 in the middle of the war?

OH, you're stupid and can't.

Nevermind.

Posted by: Jay at April 29, 2009 06:48 AM (/ZX77)

76 But please, please by all means keep trying to justify the war in Iraq. It's already cost you the White House, 60 House seats, and 15 Senate Seats.

But it probably saved our lives.

Posted by: outraged at April 29, 2009 06:49 AM (penCf)

77

It's already cost you the White House, 60 House seats, and 15 Senate Seats.

I blame this on the MSM and the RINO's.

Posted by: katya at April 29, 2009 06:50 AM (oRJZj)

78

"...intellectually dishonest and childish."

That pretty much sums up Thomas Friedman. He's the perfect NYT foreign policy hack – ill informed, simplistic and hopelessly naive. His cartoon quality analysis of the world coupled with his Disney-esq “It’s a Small World” mentality is laughable.

Having spent my adult life traveling the world I can assure you that Friedman doesn’t have a clue.

 

 

Posted by: Murph at April 29, 2009 06:50 AM (wdutd)

79 Do you all agree we should have attacked and invaded Florida due to their connections with al Qaeda?

The New York Money Men™ do it for us, every winter.

Posted by: toby928 at April 29, 2009 06:51 AM (PD1tk)

80

#72

I must run.

Run, run!  Don't ever refute the facts you claim to crave, just run!

But please, please by all means keep trying to justify the war in Iraq. It's already cost you the White House, 60 House seats, and 15 Senate Seats.

Yeah, the Republicans lost soley due to the Iraq War.  It wasn't about being Dem-light and having a piss-poor communication scheme.  Keep telling yourself that, moonbat.

And just yesterday another Senate seat because a 30 year GOP Senator couldn't support you lunatics any more.

Arlen Sphincter defected because he was going to get his ass handed to him in the 2010 Republican primary.  The Dems can have him and suffer with his antics.  He's your kind of politican - spineless.

How low can you go before you recognize you have a problem?

I think the problem's going to be dealt with.  However, I hope Iran or NK or China doesn't try to kick some more sand in our faces before then.  I'm not optimistic about that, though.  And when are you going to recognize your problem, runner?

 

Posted by: Kratos (on the back of Gaia, scaling Mt Olympus) at April 29, 2009 06:52 AM (9hSKh)

81 Dick Morris lays out the future of the Obama Administration.

Posted by: maddogg at April 29, 2009 06:53 AM (OlN4e)

82

And just yesterday another Senate seat because a 30 year GOP Senator couldn't support you lunatics any more.

Someone besides Arlen Skeletor changed parties yesterday?  Who is this 30 year GOP Senator?

Posted by: Jim King at April 29, 2009 06:54 AM (NW0iD)

83 Spectre left, because Pig and Elephant DNA just won't splice.

Not because he had principles, it's in his genes.

Posted by: Douglas at April 29, 2009 06:56 AM (uU+Ss)

84 HC is a funny guy.  Really.

"Where are the facts!  You don't have them!  Oh.. you do?  Well you're still wrong!"

Posted by: yambles at April 29, 2009 06:57 AM (PLAPA)

85 Specter was NEVER a Republican, but he was always a piece of rotting, maggot infested rat meat.

Posted by: maddogg at April 29, 2009 06:58 AM (OlN4e)

86 I must run.

"When danger reared it's ugly head
He bravely turned his tail and fled..."

Posted by: OregonMuse at April 29, 2009 07:01 AM (FO+YO)

87

FYI Monty

Sura (8:55)- Surely the vilest of animals in Allah's sight are those who disbelieve

Sura (48:29)- Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard (ruthless) against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves

Sura (9:30)- And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah... Allah (Himself) fights against them. How perverse are they!

Sura (8:12)- I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them

Sura (9:123)- O you who believe! Fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness

Posted by: Matt at April 29, 2009 07:01 AM (ecpMe)

88 Something I'm only now realizing, does anyone remember when Bush was president?  I remember news readers saying "The President Mr. Bush" or "The President, George Bush."

I've never heard that seperation without accentuation as it applies to Barack.  It's a subtle use of language, but it doesn't change the fact that it's there.

Posted by: Douglas at April 29, 2009 07:03 AM (uU+Ss)

89 That reminds me, I need to find my Republicans for Voldemort shirt.

Voldemort has nothing on Darth Cheney when it comes to sweet, sweet cougar-shod evil.

Nothing, I say.

Disclaimer: I aspire to 100% evil myself, and 100% support evil Sith Lords in the defense of the nation.

Posted by: IllTemperedCur at April 29, 2009 07:15 AM (kLZ8u)

90

Dick Cheney could rub Harry Potter out.

Dick Cheney knows how to get the job done.

Posted by: reason at April 29, 2009 07:23 AM (sPO/s)

91 #16 Nice Deb: done and thanked.  Thanks for the link.

Posted by: Derak at April 29, 2009 07:24 AM (QIsMa)

92 Flypaper works.  News @ 11.

Posted by: toby928 at April 29, 2009 07:27 AM (PD1tk)

93

The challenge for Republicans remains:

Tie each president's policies to each president.

Republicans can't seem to tie Obama to Obama, and they can't seem to tie Bush to Bush. Instead, the fruits of D-Congress and Obama's unsuccessful economic policies since 2005 will continue to be tied to Bush, and the fruits of Bush's successful defense policies since 2001 will be tied to Obama.

 

Posted by: Pterseus at April 29, 2009 07:31 AM (inezR)

94 OK, toothless hillbillies! The invasion of Florida begins at 12 noon tomorrow! Bring your guns and religion! Wow, HC...really? You must have taken the dumbass masterclass. I bet it hurts you deep inside to see the seeds of liberty in the middle east, or anywhere for that matter, you disturbing little fascist.

Posted by: Dr. Manhattan at April 29, 2009 07:32 AM (OkrJ4)

95

The only thing more useless than a Democrat Commander in Chief is one of their MSM toady's analysis of the strategic relevancy of a military operation.

When the history of the media and the Obama administration is finally written, it should be titled "Tools Covering for Fools".

Posted by: sherlock at April 29, 2009 07:34 AM (ZrS0c)

96 Geez folks, I'm surprised HC didn't hit us with the no weapons of mass destruction argument too. And we all know there weren't. Just ask all of those kurds in the north that were killed by gas that didn't exist.

Posted by: teej at April 29, 2009 07:35 AM (lG7ds)

97 Don't bash the MSM's military Analysis, don't you know that the SAW is "A Very Heavy Machine Gun?"

Posted by: Douglas at April 29, 2009 07:39 AM (uU+Ss)

98

I'm surprised HC didn't hit us with the no weapons of mass destruction argument too

I was totally waiting for that one.

Posted by: katya at April 29, 2009 07:42 AM (oRJZj)

99 This is why I despise Friedman more than just about any other Left wing media hack. At least with someone like Krugman, yeah he's crazy but at least he doesn't really pretend to be a serious person. Friedman is unbelievably cowardly and weasel like in his partisanship while pretending to be a serious thinker.

Posted by: andrew at April 29, 2009 07:42 AM (AlABr)

100

In semi-unrelated news, anyone see the exchange between Gingrich and Waxman regarding cap'n trade?  Waxman really shows how much of a tool he is.

http://tinyurl.com/czwtwx

I like how he tries the liberal passive-aggressive tactic of asking a question then talking over Gingrich so he can't answer.  Notice I say "tries".  What an unprofessional douchebag.

Posted by: yinzer at April 29, 2009 07:43 AM (/Mla1)

101 Do these trolls know they are playing the part of anonymous thought police?....attempting to enforce political codes and correctness? There was never a better time to read Orwell's collected essays, his novels, the writings of our founding fathers, great scientists, or Ayn Rand. Go Galt, people. Bravely hold your thoughts close to you. The state, and its jackbooted internet enforcers are going to try their damndest to crush your will to resist. We are already seeing it in the form of these relentless, groupthinking trolls.

Posted by: Dr. Manhattan at April 29, 2009 07:46 AM (OkrJ4)

102 Many people  have commented on the weird passivity that many Muslims -- particularly Arab Muslims -- often display. Insh'Allah is a common term, meaning "it will be if God wills it". Some blame the traditional tribal Arab culture (and there's some truth to that), but Islam reinforces the notion of passivity. Islam cannot be understood as a religion all by itself; it is also a system of governance, of societal organization, of teaching. It stresses obedience and rote memorization of rules.

An example of how this hinders both social development and structural cohesion: Arabs are notorioiusly poor soldiers, and they always have been. Even the feared Turk soldiers relied on paid mercenaries for their shock-troops because the average Turk soldier was inferior to his Western counterpart. Why? Because Muslim soldiers generally lack the capability to think on their feet, to take charge, and to handle a degradation in the chain-of-command (taking over for a superior if the superior is killed in battle). They do not adapt well. They are not cowards; Arab soldiers are often so brave as to be foolhardy, even suicidal. But they have trouble with tactics, logistics, even routine weapons maintenance. Why? Insh'Allah. It will be if God wills it. Muslims have trouble accepting blame for poor performance because in their minds they are simply pawns to God's will.

Insh'Allah explains why the entire Muslim world lags terribly behind the West in nearly every metric of intellectual and economic activity. It explains the endemic corruption and repression that go on in Muslim societies. You can't explain the problem away as tribal or ethnic habits; Islam is the only common denominator.

So when I say that "hate" is the wrong word, it's because that's not how Muslims would use it. Muslims are bound by the tentacles of their faith in a way that Jews, Hindus, and Christians are not. Of course, they allow themselves to be bound, but since they don't really believe in free-will either, the dichotomy does not occur to them. Insh'Allah. It will be if God wills it.

Posted by: Monty at April 29, 2009 07:47 AM (/0a60)

103 I believe that the most important reason there has not been another 9/11, besides the improved security and intelligence, is that Al Qaeda is primarily focused on defeating America in the heart of the Arab-Muslim world — particularly in Iraq

I've said this before as well. That there were no further attacks here post 9/11 was primarily due to the military putting boot to ass overseas. Law Enforcement here can only do so much, and domestic plots that were thwarted were because of intelligence reaped from overseas military operations. The two cannot exist independently of each other, same as anywhere else. The British used the Army to fight the IRA, the Italians used it's military to fight the Red Brigades, the West Germans with the Red Army Faction and Baader-Meinhof, etc, etc. If liberals would try and read history instead of trying to reinvent it, they might learn something.

Posted by: UGAdawg at April 29, 2009 07:49 AM (IE6OO)

104 White Cloud (slightly soiled):

Anyone with a brain (this excludes you and your ilk, of course) who was paying attention knows--KNOWS--that Saddam's Iraq was a part of the international terrorist support system.

Invading Iraq was the easiest to justify.  It was the low-hanging fruit.

"Saddam's Iraq and al-Qaeda were enemies."  Dear God, just how stupid are you?  And how stupid do you think we are?

Now run back to Moonbat Central and tell all your dirty, stinking communist buddies that you really gave those toothless, hillbilly rednecks what for.

Assholes, every last one of you.

Posted by: honest cloud at April 29, 2009 07:49 AM (TBwnU)

105 OOOoooo! Nice smack down, Jackstraw. 

Posted by: Derak at April 29, 2009 07:49 AM (QIsMa)

106 98 Don't bash the MSM's military Analysis, don't you know that the SAW is "A Very Heavy Machine Gun?"

Hey, you try carrying the fucker for a couple weeks, you'll see, it IS a heavy motherfucker...

Posted by: XBradTC at April 29, 2009 07:49 AM (Is2sy)

107 That's me at 105.  Damned sockpuppet.

Posted by: tsj017 at April 29, 2009 07:50 AM (TBwnU)

108

64 Hey Dumbfucks,

Which one of you brilliant fuckers is sockpuppeting as HC? Seriously. Nobody can be this funny unintentionally.

HC is to political analysis what Thunderbird is to fine wine. And that may be a little to generous.

Posted by: pendejo grande at April 29, 2009 07:53 AM (PXZI9)

109

Monty, I do understand what you say about the word "hate".  My point is that their actions toward non-Muslims are acts of hate. 

Perhaps they understand "hate crime" better than the U.S. law makers, in that it is the action and not the emotion behind it that makes it a crime.

Posted by: katya at April 29, 2009 07:54 AM (oRJZj)

110 Speaking of Dick Cheney...Dick was at a campaign event, shaking hands with supporters when he came across a mother and her baby. Cheney kissed the baby then turned around and told the Secret Service guy, "I want that one for lunch".

Posted by: FishFearMe at April 29, 2009 07:56 AM (DL7CT)

111 Hey, you try carrying the fucker for a couple weeks, you'll see, it IS a heavy motherfucker...

I can second that. It doesn't feel all that heavy, but when you have to take it on a 10-mile road-march with 500 rounds in your pack (along with all your other shit) it gets very heavy indeed. Pity the poor fool who has to cart the 240B around, though. That sucker makes the SAW feel positively lightweight in comparison. Thank God I didn't get picked to be the squad gunner (although I did get ammo-bitch duty a couple of times).

Posted by: Monty at April 29, 2009 07:56 AM (/0a60)

112

#97

Or, even better, say that Iraq became a threat because of teh Rumsfeld handshake with Saddam in the early '80s.  Or because of teh OIL!!!111!!!

In that case, there will be only oil (and chaos) in the end.

Posted by: Kratos (on the back of Gaia, scaling Mt Olympus) at April 29, 2009 07:56 AM (9hSKh)

113 #12 - Uneducated redneck toothless hillbillies who don't even understand that Iraq had nothing to do with the 911 attacks.

Honest Cloud - You're an ignorant bigot.

Posted by: Reiver at April 29, 2009 07:58 AM (Yi1Sk)

114 Friedman is unbelievably cowardly and weasel like in his partisanship while pretending to be a serious thinker.

 I couldn't agree more, but I don't understand why Friedman is considered to be such a serious thinker and Middle East "expert". Because he can order a falafel in Arabic? From Beirut to Jerusalem was a good book, but I can't tell that he's done any further research into the Middle East since he wrote that 20+ years ago. He still trades off of that book, which means he's either lazy or a dumbass who did one thing of note two decades ago.

Posted by: UGAdawg at April 29, 2009 07:59 AM (IE6OO)

115 Monty, I've been meaning to ask, what is your reserve status? Still drilling? I was very impressed with your decision to go in at the ripe old age of 108.

Posted by: XBradTC at April 29, 2009 08:00 AM (Is2sy)

116 All networks airing "Lie to Me" tonight (some with different stars).

Posted by: Viewer at April 29, 2009 08:00 AM (+sBB4)

117

The Obama administration, by way of the EPA, is indoctrinating hundreds of activists that train in resisting arrest to supporth is "green" agenda.  First Acorn, now these douchebags.

http://tinyurl.com/dcwt5w

You can skip to about 5:00 in, the rest before that is mostly fluff.

Posted by: yinzer at April 29, 2009 08:00 AM (/Mla1)

118 Insh'Allah is a common term,

I've often wondered why Arabs have resigned themselves to live in such crappy conditions and oppressive, corrupt leaders where only the few benefit, is that because of their attitude of "insh'Allah", or do the hopeless, brutal living conditions produce insh'Allah? In other words, which came first, the chicken or the egg?

Posted by: OregonMuse at April 29, 2009 08:02 AM (FO+YO)

119 Even if HC thought invading Iraq was the right thing to do, he wouldn't have supported it because his ilk think almost totally in terms of political expediency. Go to war? Oh no! We might lose an election! Furthermore, even if it was the right thing to do, and he knew that was the case, he would never admit it, since Bush started it. Of course, he'll never again think or discuss he fact that his beloved Democratic Party authorized it in congress. That little fact will just go down the memory hole. In other words, people like him never argue in good faith.

Posted by: Dr. Manhattan at April 29, 2009 08:02 AM (OkrJ4)

120

Cool fact about honest clod, he is a dumb bastard.

Ok, not so cool but it is a fact.

Posted by: JackStraw at April 29, 2009 08:03 AM (VW9/y)

121 XBradTC:

I got honorably discharged about six months back. I busted my foot while at Benning, and unfortunately the injury never did heal right -- I actually broke my heel-bone (the calcanus) into two pieces while on the rappelling tower. An infantryman isn't much good with a bum foot, so they gently invited me to get the fuck out.

I'm technically still on Ready Reserve, and will be for six more years, but I don't drill. So if aliens invade or something and the Army has need of a 42-year-old geezer, I can still be called up.

Posted by: Monty at April 29, 2009 08:03 AM (/0a60)

122

I must run.

Of course you do, sugartits.  You've once again had the rhetorical shit pounded out of you by your intellectual superiors here, and that welfare check isn't going to walk itself up to your state-subsidized rathole.

You don't need to do this to yourself, clod.  The beatings you seek out here on a regular basis aren't going to erase the memory of all those things that daddy made you do to his Pampered Chef buddies.

Nothing will.

But before you're off to therapy, please do explain again how Iraq and al Qaeda had nothing to do with each other.  I mean, it seems as if you're on the short end of the stick in that debate so far (Richard Clarke's testimony is somehow more compelling than your "hillbilly redneck" rebuttal), and you've curiously abandoned it after running around with the goalposts like an excitable retard with attention deficit issues.

Here's hint: try not to further humiliate yourself by bringing Floridian flight schools to your defense.

Posted by: VJay at April 29, 2009 08:03 AM (gQ+XA)

123 It doesn't feel all that heavy, but when you have to take it on a 10-mile road-march with 500 rounds in your pack (along with all your other shit) it gets very heavy indeed

Shit, Monty, even a lightweight M-4 gets heavy when you've carried it long enough. Carry a SAW on a march, and you start to question if it's worth the extra firepower (it is, but it still sucks). Pity the poor bastards that carried the M-60, which was even bulkier.

My squad would also carry a lot of commo equipment, which upped the weight considerably, and would almost certainly never work in the field.

Posted by: UGAdawg at April 29, 2009 08:03 AM (IE6OO)

124 mark 19 on a macrest (always spell that wrong, but I think it means "earning your Marine Crest")  You maybe only carry it for 6 miles total, but it's still a mark 19.

Posted by: Douglas at April 29, 2009 08:04 AM (uU+Ss)

125 I'm shocked, SHOCKED, I tell you to learn that Tom "Suck on This" Friedman thinks the Iraq war was a good idea.  Gee he's only been on the record with that opinion since, oh, 2003?

He didn't like the way the war was prosecuted pre-surge.  (but who didn't?)

Posted by: seattle slough at April 29, 2009 08:04 AM (H5l9d)

126

The only good thing to come out of that I think will be a major financial meltdown (as in '29) is the thought that those like gas cloud, who spend their days french kissing Obama's ass,  will be picking through their own shit looking for something to eat.

Posted by: maddogg at April 29, 2009 08:05 AM (OlN4e)

127

Here we go --

So I guess the Iraqis drew the short straw

If you mean they were unfortunate about who ended up leading their country and what he led it to, then Yes, the Iraqis were unlucky in that regard.

in spite of no presence of al Qaeda

factually incorrect

and being an enemy of al Qaeda

also factually incorrect

I'll note here a couple of points which, evidently, need to be repeated, yet again: First, the U.S. was already in a state of war against Iraq, though for 12 long and costly years, major hostilities were replaced with other activities, many of which included combat. Second, the Global War on Terror has been waged against international terrorists and those who support them. Once articulated, this doctrine earned President Bush an unprecedented 90% approval rating. Later, Saddam Hussein conveniently addressed many news media to announce himself a fitting target according to these criteria. To say that he asked the United States to invade his country is closer to the literal truth than any of your claims.

had their country destroyed

It's in better shape now than it was before March 19, 2003.

millions displaced

I'll grant that the displacement of large numbers of people is a valid indicator of how free and functional a society is. A bad sign is a forced exodus of millions of people from a country. Another bad sign is the voluntary exodus of millions of people. Unless you're referring to the time Saddam was in charge, your description is factually incorrect. The reality is that thousands of expatriot (that is, refugee) Iraqis have freely returned to their homeland with hundreds of thousands more visiting to undertake religious pilgrimages.

a few hundred thousand killed

This figure must also refer to the casualties of Iraqis during Saddam's rule, the more conservative of which estimates 290,000 killed.

tens of thousands imprisoned

Giving you the benefit of the doubt here, I should point out that there are distinctions between detaining someone and imprisoning someone.

many tortured

according the the purported victims of said torture.

That is some sick twisted logic.

(If you say so.)

Posted by: FireHorse at April 29, 2009 08:05 AM (w9FHT)

128 Monty,

Still, with all the dust on your sack, it's a hell of a thing you did nutzing up like you did.

Posted by: Douglas at April 29, 2009 08:06 AM (uU+Ss)

129 Oregon muse: There is no chicken and egg there. There is only an egg-shaped chicken or an chicken-shaped egg. There were many great Arab thinkers, but that era is over. They are so far behind in terms of research all they can hope to do is glean what they can from western or Asian study. It would take the end of the world to reverse their course, or a dissolution of their real and imagined borders.

Posted by: Dr. Manhattan at April 29, 2009 08:07 AM (OkrJ4)

130 Monty, that's a fairly common problem with us old guys (we're the same age roughly, but I went to Benning School for Boys at 18, and still managed to get bursitis!). I hope it doesn't plague you much in your "real" life.

Mk19 would definitely suck. Just humping the .50 the half-mile to the motor pool kicked my ass back in the day.

And why was it we always stuck the scrawny, small guys as the 60/240 gunners?

Posted by: XBradTC at April 29, 2009 08:09 AM (Is2sy)

131 "Arab thinker"?

Posted by: Skeptic at April 29, 2009 08:10 AM (+sBB4)

132

 

Posted by: Matt at April 29, 2009 08:13 AM (ecpMe)

133 OregonMuse:

I've often wondered why Arabs have resigned themselves to live in such crappy conditions and oppressive, corrupt leaders where only the few benefit

You're not the only one, but it has been a problem for hundreds and hundreds of years. The Turks always considered the Arabs to be the middle-eastern equivalent of backwoods hillbillies. Even T. S. Lawrence, who was inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt, was exasperated by their backwardness and resistance to change. Perhaps the only people on earth more backwards than the Arabs are the Pushtun tribes of Afghanistan and Pakistan.

I am not one of those who ascribe the issues to tribalism or race. Transplant an Arab to a Western society, and he does very well -- statistically, just as well as any other ethnic group, and better than most. But there's something about the stultifying influence of Islam that brings out the worst characteristics of the Arab culture. And though Arabs are ashamed of their own backwardness, their shame is projected outwards rather than inwards. They are angry at the developed world for pointing out their defects rather than chagrined at their own inability to adapt.

I am not hopeful for that region of the world. Technology is fracturing the middle-eastern nations in unpredictable ways. The Taliban use cell-phones and laptop computers, but these devices might as well run by magic for all the Taliban can understand. The Muslim world craves western technology and power, but at the same time hates and fears the freedom that it brings; and envies the intellectual development that made that technology possible.

Iraq was only a foretaste of the bloody battles yet to come as Islam collapses under the weight of its own contradictions.

Posted by: Monty at April 29, 2009 08:13 AM (/0a60)

134 Douglas:

The Army didn't miss out on much. I wasn't much of a soldier, truth to tell. The spirit was willing, but the flesh was bruised, strained, sore, and weak. Plus I couldn't shoot for shit.

Posted by: Monty at April 29, 2009 08:15 AM (/0a60)

135 My squad would also carry a lot of commo equipment, which upped the weight considerably, and would almost certainly never work in the field.

Prick 77, Vinson KY57 and extra batteries.... oy vey.

Posted by: IllTemperedCur at April 29, 2009 08:16 AM (kLZ8u)

136 ...DR-8 w/WD-1, TA-1, switchboard, Prick 126, and don't forget all the night vision crap, like PVS-4s and -7s...

Posted by: XBradTC at April 29, 2009 08:20 AM (Is2sy)

137 It's the spirit that carries the body forward, it isn't the strength to take another step that gets you through a hump, it is accepting that you must take that next step, it isn't a fear of reaching "bottom" it is knowing that there is no bottom, there is always one more step, there is always another effort, and when your body is worn and beaten, you know that if you must you won't walk one more step to an end, but you will run to your end.  It is the spirit of the fighter that makes the American warrior the greatest fighter on the planet.

Your tired old ass might have broken down, but undoubtedly you made a lot of young strong men realize what the spirit of a warrior is.

Posted by: Douglas at April 29, 2009 08:21 AM (uU+Ss)

138 Sweet succulent history.

At 62 I've been around long enough to hear the noise made immediately over some happening, then see the historians look at it with a jaded eye 40 years later.

Carter is, of course, toast.  He knows it too, which is pretty sweet.Weak, ineffectual, and wrong-headed.  Much of what went wrong for the next 50 years started with his lack of serious policy.

Clinton will be seen as a popular moderate, a do-nothing, hurt-nothing, empty hole in the line of presidents.  He will be remembered for Monica alone...with a bit of head-in-the-sand thrown in.  A placeholder.  Think Ike's administration  without the blowjobs.

Bush will get the biographies.  So much to dislike, to mistrust, and to admire. His critics will be forgotten...mainly because he ignored them.

I can write Obama's history now.  First Black President.  Socialist Experimentation.  Didn't Work Out.

Posted by: trainer at April 29, 2009 08:21 AM (dNNoh)

139 They are angry at the developed world for pointing out their defects rather than chagrined at their own inability to adapt.

The Muslim world craves western technology and power, but at the same time hates and fears the freedom that it brings; and envies the intellectual development that made that technology possible.

Posted by: Monty at April 29, 2009 01:13 PM (/0a60)


I think this line of thinking is one given to us by the Left.  My view is that the Muslim world doesn't like Leftist values (think porn, sex in movies, abortions, etc.).  The Left has been successful in making everyone think the values of the Right (Bush policies) are causing most of he rift between our cultures.

Posted by: Skeptic at April 29, 2009 08:21 AM (+sBB4)

140

I realize it is wrong to take offense with what Honest Cloud says, but I am getting very sick of his default "uneducated redneck toothless hillbillies" stance. I believe we have handed him his ass time and again over the last couple of weeks, in so doing we have proven to be highly educated and informed. Not to mention that many of us have made reference to our careers, which include fields such as physics and math and computer science. Not too many coal miners among us as far as I know. Also, there are many of us who have names that indicate we live far away from hillbilly land, for example I think you would be rather hard pressed to find a hillbilly in Seattle. And the toothless stereotype is inane.

I know he's doing it to get our dander and I shouldn't fall for it, but that kind of vitriol gets old after a while.


 

Posted by: ParanoidGirlInSeattle at April 29, 2009 08:23 AM (AJ4xq)

141

Even if HC thought invading Iraq was the right thing to do, he wouldn't have supported it because his ilk think almost totally in terms of political expediency. Go to war? Oh no! We might lose an election!

Exactly.  The ONLY principle that a Leftist has is political power.  Everything -- everything -- else is nothing more than a debate about tactics to achieve it.  They don't have the first fucking clue how to effectively wield it when they "win", but, like any spoiled adolescent nihilist, they simply insist that anything they don't like needs to be destroyed.  The aftermath plan is so much yada yada yada to them.

Phase I: Tear it all down

Phase II: ???

Phase III: Utopia

Take this all-too-typical asshole honest clod.  Now, this dipshit hasn't appeared on a single thread on this board without making a complete fool of himself and advertising his rank stupidity.  If he was the least bit interested in having a worldview based on reality rather than a reality reverse-engineered from his worldview, he'd actually be thanking us for lowering ourselves to even address him, much less obliterate the mythologies which keep his little carefully crafted fanboy world from imploding on him.

But he's not.  Clod doesn't care one bit about his ignorance or the degree to which he (voluntarily) embarrasses himself every time mommy lets him use the computer.  What he -- and every leftist -- cares about is "SCOREBOARD!".  That's their justification for everything.

Like how Iraq and al Qaeda -- despite the overwhelming evidence and expert opinion to the contrary -- had nothing to do with each other.  Why?  Because of the recent ELECTIONS, that's why!  Stupid redneck hillbilly winger, holding beliefs independent of the outcomes of political contests!

This is nothing more than a big sport to them, and they're the most ravenously, blindly loyal fans known to man.  They're generally too weak and sickly to participate in actual sports (bad memories from playing junior high kickball, no doubt), or even sports-fandom (bad memories of still being sodomized in the shower despite the letter from home getting them out of playing kickball), and they're too fucking juvenile to recognize that politics and policy are life-and-death matters somewhat more important than the unshakeable Sox fans' belief that "THE YANKEES SUCK!".

Like I've said before, it's best not to think of them as human.  It's certainly pointless to pretend that they're adults.

Posted by: VJay at April 29, 2009 08:23 AM (gQ+XA)

142

Monty @ 134

The Taliban  Liberals use cell-phones and laptop computers, but these devices might as well run by magic for all the Taliban  leftists can understand. The Muslim   leftist world craves western technology and power, but at the same time hates and fears the freedom that it brings; and envies hates the intellectual development that made that technology possible.

Seemed appropriate, hope you don't mind.

Posted by: maddogg at April 29, 2009 08:24 AM (OlN4e)

143 My view is that the Muslim world doesn't like Leftist values (think porn, sex in movies, abortions, etc.).

Interesting fact: most of my Army pals who did time over in the sandbox were always amused and surprised at the Arab taste for Western smut. They showed me a digital picture one time of literally thousands of porno DVDs and magazines at one of the safe-houses they busted. The hajis loves them some blonde American pornstar. They're also enthusiastic users of drugs: meth and cocaine being the most popular, as it keeps them "up" for combat; but many (particularly Iranians) are addicted to heroin as well.

And it's not just the young guys, either.

Posted by: Monty at April 29, 2009 08:24 AM (/0a60)

144 Bravely hold your thoughts close to you. The state, and its jackbooted internet enforcers are going to try their damndest to crush your will to resist.

I wrestle with this Dr. M.    Frankly, the entire internet/twitter/facebook exposes the thought process of all who partake.  It is a mind reading technology, quite recent at that.  Evil governments will take every opportunity to use it against their opposition.
And the ACLU has demonstrated it protects only those who toe the line.  So yes, be measured, BUT-  "all it takes for evil to prevail is for good men to stand by and do nothing."  (quote? sorry..) 

We are facing a political environment today that was the stuff of fiction. Those fictions are becoming frightening reality in record pace.  Do you fight, or do you flee?  I tend to want to fight.  Keeping our convictions to ourselves isolates us, and panders to our political enemy: SHUT UP! This is H. Clod's desire.  No.  I won't.  Don't be fearful, muster the strength of your convictions, and follow up with action. Today, action is via our congress. Tomorrow????

If I've misunderstood your point, it wouldn't be the first time.

Posted by: Derak at April 29, 2009 08:27 AM (QIsMa)

145

Monty, if I'm following your argument correctly, you're saying that Muslims don't really hate us because they believe that everything that happens is compelled by God's will and they are incapable of individual action.

But if you are compelled to hate- to believe that nonbelievers are vile, perverse, warranting ruthless treatment, hardness and decapitation- it is still hate, despite the compulsion from God.

 

Posted by: Matt at April 29, 2009 08:27 AM (ecpMe)

146 Well if liberal idiots like friedman are already saying that the things that 'someone that shall go unnamed'  did were the right things to do, history may just look favorably on President G.W. Bush after all...

Posted by: Uncle Jefe at April 29, 2009 08:27 AM (+3fAP)

147 PGIS -- remember honest clown is the equivalent of a child who doesn't understand what the grown-ups are talking about. When my kids were two years old, I did not take it personally when they threw a tantrum or made faces at the food they were served. That's the way I look at it.

Posted by: OregonMuse at April 29, 2009 08:29 AM (FO+YO)

148

his ilk think almost totally in terms of political expediency. Go to war? Oh no! We might lose an election!

It seems to be more in terms of peacenikness.  Go to war?  Oh no!  We might hurt someone!

Or self preservation.  Go to war?  Oh no!  I might get hurt!

Posted by: katya at April 29, 2009 08:33 AM (oRJZj)

149 But if you are compelled to hate- to believe that nonbelievers are vile, perverse, warranting ruthless treatment, hardness and decapitation- it is still hate, despite the compulsion from God.

Well, maybe. I've always considered "hate" to be a personal emotion, the opposite of "love". I cannot "love" in the abstract; neither can I "hate" in the abstract. I need specifics to hate someone, and I can only hate people one at a time, individually. (I guess that's why I never found racism to be very compelling -- I can't judge by the group. It's just not in me.) Arabs, on the other hand, have trouble conceptualizing in terms of indivduals -- their entire history and religious background unfits them for it. They think only of the family, the clan, the tribe, the Islamic Ummah. They can only "hate" in the abstract; and that to me is not "hate" at all (as I understand the term).

This is a generalization, of course. Arabs are famous for intertribal vendettas and feuds, but this has more to do with the honor/shame dynamic than any actual animus between the parties.

Posted by: Monty at April 29, 2009 08:34 AM (/0a60)

150

 realize it is wrong to take offense with what Honest Cloud says, but I am getting very sick of his default "uneducated redneck toothless hillbillies" stance.

The "rednecks" of this country are some of  the best people in the world. Considering the predominance of southerners in our armed forces, currently and in the past, and the fact that to many, all southerners are rednecks, I am proud to be labeled a redneck.

 

Posted by: kidney at April 29, 2009 08:34 AM (FgUFX)

151

but many (particularly Iranians) are addicted to heroin as well.

One of the biggest complaints the Iranians have had with Afghanistan, indeed the reason they agreed to give us some help in Afghanistan initially, was the opium trade coming out of Afghanistan.  In terms of both drug use and the skirmishing that was constantly taking place on the Iran/Afghan border, this was and still is a big issue.

I was in Kuwait meeting with a customer a little over a year ago.  We were sitting on the balcony restaurant looking out over the gulf drinking Kuwaiti wine (aka water) and my two contacts dressed in traditional arab garb (after arriving in the requisite Mercedes) were telling me about their wild party weekend in Dubai.  There is no more culture more at conflict with itself than the muslim culture.

Posted by: JackStraw at April 29, 2009 08:35 AM (VW9/y)

152 I too, am a Southern Redneck. And I thank God Almighty for it.

Posted by: maddogg at April 29, 2009 08:36 AM (OlN4e)

153 Go for it 26%ers. Please. Please. Please.

I'm sure you 26%ers will carry Bush to resounding victories in the 2010 elections.

"In January 2009, just as former President George W. Bush was leaving office, the Wall Street Journal/NBC News poll found that >31 percent of Americans viewed him somewhat or very positively. In their latest poll, < ">positive views of Bush have dropped to just 26 percent. In roughly the same time period, positive views of former Vice President Cheney dropped from 21 percent to 18 percent."

Posted by: honest cloud at April 29, 2009 08:36 AM (hOPQH)

154 Raised in a wooded area on a gravel road in a trailer in central Missouri, I am proud to be labeled a Redneck.

Posted by: katya at April 29, 2009 08:38 AM (oRJZj)

155

The "rednecks" of this country are some of  the best people in the world.

Couple that with the inconvenient truth that all the jobs still be created in this nation are created by "rednecks" in "redneck" states, while the shitholes that have been long-dominated by idiotic liberal policies and the knuckle-dragging dumbasses that routinely return them to power are all circling the drain, hemorrhaging population and jobs.

Detroit.  Baltimore.  Cleveland.  New Orleans.  Los Angeles.  Oakland.  Philadelphia.  All miserable failures, and not a "redneck" to be found.

Posted by: VJay at April 29, 2009 08:42 AM (gQ+XA)

156

OK, I didn't mean to offend rednecks with my comments, my apologies if it seemed that way. Because actually as all of you clearly point out, redneck DOES NOT equal stupid. And I didn't mean to imply otherwise.

I guess what bothers me is the shorthand that liberals use this for. The assumption that anyone who doesn't think like they do is this uneducated other. It's bull and I resent it.

Posted by: ParanoidGirlInSeattle at April 29, 2009 08:46 AM (AJ4xq)

157

I'm sure you 26%ers will carry Bush to resounding victories in the 2010 elections.

In other words: SCOREBOARD!

Delicious.

Posted by: VJay at April 29, 2009 08:47 AM (gQ+XA)

158 In their latest poll, positive views of Bush have dropped to just 26 percent.

Meanwhile, Obama's positive views are at 69%.

Ha. Ha. Ha.  Do ya wonder, maybe even a little bit, wingnuts, that you might be barking up the wrong tree?


Posted by: honest cloud at April 29, 2009 08:48 AM (hOPQH)

159 Raised in a wooded area on a gravel road in a trailer in central Missouri, I am proud to be labeled a Redneck.

Raised about a mile from Interstate 25 in a trailer park in Cheyenne, Wyoming. Got my first .22 when I was ten years old; shot my first deer at 13. In my family, the redneck Force was strong.

Posted by: Monty at April 29, 2009 08:51 AM (/0a60)

160 Like Ted Nugent said: If you like what liberal policies have done for Detroit, your gonna love Obama.

Posted by: maddogg at April 29, 2009 08:52 AM (OlN4e)

161

I didn't mean to offend rednecks with my comments, my apologies if it seemed that way.

Paranoid, I for one, was reacting to Cloud's snide reference to rednecks, not your comment.

Posted by: katya at April 29, 2009 08:54 AM (oRJZj)

162 It seems that dishonest cloud is scared of something.

Maybe it's the fact that Obama can't blame anything on Republicans with Arlen Spectre coming out of the closet.

Whatever it is, I am enjoying his little meltdown.

I need more popcorn.

Posted by: Boeing at April 29, 2009 08:55 AM (YaBmG)

163 Sorry, Boeing there appears to be a popcorn shortage. Demand for it over the last 100 days has exceeded the supply.

Posted by: ParanoidGirlInSeattle at April 29, 2009 08:57 AM (AJ4xq)

164

"In January 2009, just as former President George W. Bush was leaving office, the Wall Street Journal/NBC News poll found that >31 percent of Americans..."

Hey, clod -- until you're mercifully banned or, better yet, turned into the boy toy of the troll patrol -- try applying your vast, non-hillbilly intellect to the awesome task of posting links.  And then go one step further and apply that super-skill to linking to something, anything, which supports any of the dipshit boilerplate you puke out here every day.

Because I've got a feeling that your days of not shoving fruit up your ass on this stage are quickly coming to an end.

Posted by: VJay at April 29, 2009 09:00 AM (gQ+XA)

165

Meanwhile, Obama's positive views are at 69%.

SCOREBOARD!

Posted by: VJay at April 29, 2009 09:01 AM (gQ+XA)

166 Hey, honest clod,

you're mom just rolled over in bed here and told me to tell you that you need to remind the babysitter to take your cloth diapers out of the washer and put them in the dryer. Also, not too much candy before dinner.

Posted by: Boeing at April 29, 2009 09:30 AM (YaBmG)

167

As Old Guy so saliently indicated, Friedman's columns are nothing but fashion.  He is a fool and a disgrace.

As for rednecks, there are far worse things to be in this country.  Rednecks have the Scots-Irish traditionalism flowing in their veins that holds this country together.  Without the Scots-Irish, the U. S. would be France-Lite.  One must have the courage of convictions and be willing to fight for them.  The Scots typically did the fighting for the English.   And look what has happened to England since their mercenaries were purged from Ulster in the late 17th century.  Good for us; bad for them.

We have several examples of overly picturesque rednecks in my family but I'll tell you, they are all employed or own their own businesses, they pay their mortages and their taxes and they raise families of bright kids that love their country.  Give me a redneck to a pencilneck liberal any day.

 

Posted by: iowavette at April 29, 2009 09:35 AM (0JTac)

168 Correlation does not imply causation

Its so sad when people get almost enough education then stop. If Friedman (and neocons) had simply and baldly stated "we invaded Iraq and weren't attacked again after 9/11" then that entire exercise would be valid and your point would be true.

Except that's not all you get. He (like many of us in the past have) carefully went through an argument supported by facts and logic proving why Iraq's invasion helped prevent another attack.

And you simply ignored that because it gets in the way of what you want to be true. Then you had the gall to declare him illogical.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at April 29, 2009 09:52 AM (PQY7w)

169

"He Who Shall Not Be Named"

Lord Dubyamort.

Posted by: Bob Hawkins at April 29, 2009 09:54 AM (eZ0vq)

170 In their latest poll...

I know its fruitless to ask but... when President Bush had more than 70% approval ratings did that mean you on the left were wrong and should shut up?

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at April 29, 2009 09:58 AM (PQY7w)

171 The Hot Box is getting bigger.  Like Obama's flying addiction.

Posted by: katya at April 29, 2009 10:43 AM (oRJZj)

172 Also, there are many of us who have names that indicate we live far away from hillbilly land, for example I think you would be rather hard pressed to find a hillbilly in Seattle. And the toothless stereotype is inane.

I know he's doing it to get our dander and I shouldn't fall for it, but that kind of vitriol gets old after a while.

I live in Seattle (Woodinville actually) and I am one generation removed from being a hillbilly. My dad grew up in extreme poverty in the rural South joined the navy as an enlisted man, got out and went Air Force OCS. He got his BA at the University of  Washington in meteorology, graduated with honors. He also has a MS from The University of Michigan in meteorology and an MS in engineering from the University of Florida.
He's 80 years old now, still has all his teeth.

Posted by: joan at April 29, 2009 10:49 AM (gVGwn)

173

Hey, don't forget us Northern California Rednecks.  (Wrote a song about it...not as good as Hank Williams Jr's 'Country Boy Can Survive'...

"We’re from North California and south Alabam'
And little towns all around this land
And we can skin a buck; we can run a trout-line
And a country boy can survive
Country folks can survive"

Posted by: Uncle Jefe at April 29, 2009 11:24 AM (+3fAP)

174 I know its fruitless to ask but... when President Bush had more than 70% approval ratings did that mean you on the left were wrong and should shut up? Posted by: Christopher Taylor at April 29, 2009 02:58 PM (PQY7w) Of COURSE not... in fact, they went ahead to demonstrate the truth of the Big Lie: screech it loud enough and often enough, and the masses will eventually accept it as true. And so they eventually drove down Bush's numbers... I'll bet those people evacuating the buildings in New York this week as Air Force One flew overhead wished BUSH was there, as opposed to Bambi and his TelePrompTer...

Posted by: CoolCzech at April 29, 2009 01:02 PM (iafWn)

175 Rednecks are everywhere, there are rednecks in France, Italy, Russia. Finest people on Earth.

Posted by: Joan at April 29, 2009 01:15 PM (5YueQ)

176

And it only took this assclown what, 15 years to figure all this out?
Apparently, the wave of attacks during Bubba’s administration and 9/11, weren’t enough of a wake up call. But now that THE ONE is in office, he has the luxury of realizing that the man he vilified for so long kept this country safe.
There’s nothing like a liberal saying “Oh, now I get it”, about eight years too late.

Posted by: SFC MAC at April 29, 2009 01:46 PM (kNmyI)

177 Those ignorant hillbilly rednecks growing grapes in Napa valley or on the Rhein, , raising thoroughbreds in Kentucky or living in Provence just don't know how to live the good life like us metrosexuals in Seattle, NYC or LA.

Posted by: Joan at April 29, 2009 01:57 PM (5YueQ)

178 hoan, you crack me up.

Posted by: rdbrewer at April 29, 2009 05:25 PM (ajXGd)

179 Friedman's saying that invading Iraq helped keep terrorists from attacking America because terrorizing Iraq was more strategically useful for them.  That doesn't mean attacking Iraq was a good idea though--it's not worth invading a country just to give your enemies another target to aim at.  Or if you think it is, now that Iraq is settling down you should probably start up the drumbeat of war for occupying Iran--or Syria, or Saudia Arabia, or Mexico, it doesn't really matter as long as it gives terrorists somewhere to go that isn't the US.

Posted by: afsfd at April 29, 2009 10:54 PM (vP5r6)

180 you should probably start up the drumbeat of war for occupying Iran--or Syria, or Saudia Arabia, or Mexico, it doesn't really matter as long as it gives terrorists somewhere to go that isn't the US.

I like the cut of your jib.

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