August 31, 2011

Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel Frets Crazy, Unreasonable, Fringe Self-Defense Rules (Which Seem Popular Among Their Readers)
— Ace

If an intruder is unlawfully in your house, at night*, can you shoot him, without being arrested?

Under current law, maybe-- if you can satisfy the law's complicated test for the lawful use of deadly force in self-defense. Would an objective person in your place have a reasonable belief that a life was in danger? Did you afford the intruder the opportunity to retreat?

How about a simpler rule -- if you've entered someone's house unlawfully, at night, the law should assume the reasonableness of shooting him?

As Althouse writes:

I favor the bill myself, because people who are considering breaking into a house shouldn't have a complicated set of risk/benefit factors to weigh. It should be really clear.

But the statists don't want it really clear. They don't want a simple bright line rule. Bright line rules take them out of the equation.

What they want are muddled rules with complicated balancing-factors tests which always reserve a place for agents of the government to evaluate the actions of a citizen, and either bless it or condemn it.

The more complicated the rule, the more official state-appointed arbiters are required to step in and interpret it.

Which, to them, is a feature, not a bug.

Sandra Day O'Connor, the judicial decision-maker who couldn't make a decision, made a true hash of the law by always trying to punt on decisions, refusing to establish bright-line rules, instead favoring complex, lengthy laundry-lists of "balancing factors" to be considered in future disputes. This is simply litigation bait -- because no one knows what the rule is (Sandra Day refused to announce one), people have to litigate endlessly to see how they'll come down in the fifteen-questions tests she favored. Every following decision was, essentially, a brand new decision, arrived at ad hoc and based on the particular factors that a judge decided this week should be controlling. (Yes, she also failed to prioritize her numerous factors.)

So if you're in a lawsuit whose controlling law was decided by Sandra Day O'Connor, buckle up, because you (and your opponent in the lawsuit) are going to be in court for a long time. And don't blame your opponent-- he is similarly trapped by an unpredictable law, too. Like you, he also has no idea what the controlling principle for this case will be finally discovered to be.

Where possible -- and it usually is possible -- laws should be simple enough to satisfy the first requirement of written laws -- that the citizens subject to them should be able to understand them and predict the legality of an action. Maybe you need to consult a lawyer to understand it -- but you shouldn't have to "consult" a judge, at trial, because your lawyer can only tell you "It's really up to the judge."

That's not a law. That's the opposite of law-- an ad hoc right of a prosecutor or judge to surprise citizens with their own idiosyncratic, personal "law" for the day.

But those who like to keep things muddled like keeping citizens in a state of baffled ignorance. Because keeping it muddled always allows agents of the state to come in and render a judgment.


* Why at night? Criminal law has historically made "at night" an element of a crime. The classic burglary charge was unlawful entrance into a dwelling, with intent to commit a felony therein, at night. If it wasn't at night, it was a lesser charge.

There's a general understanding that night-time is different. Bad things happen at night.


Posted by: Ace at 07:18 AM | Comments (160)
Post contains 618 words, total size 4 kb.

1 Obama is a stuttering clusterfuck of a miserable failure.

Posted by: steevy at August 31, 2011 07:19 AM (1Nzoh)

2 Wow.  Wierd comments thingy

Posted by: eastvalleyphx at August 31, 2011 07:20 AM (qiOph)

3 No rink?

Posted by: alexthedude at August 31, 2011 07:20 AM (iLD9h)

4 Judged by 12 or carried by 6.

Posted by: tommygun at August 31, 2011 07:20 AM (T2ydq)

5 The "Make My Day" law has worked just fine here in Oklahoma.

Posted by: Quilly Mammoth at August 31, 2011 07:20 AM (gcxdG)

6 Glock

Posted by: Sukie Tawdry at August 31, 2011 07:21 AM (MPtFW)

7 If you're in my house, uninvited, you're getting shot.

Not even a rack of the Mossy to tell you where I am.  You'll know that soon enough.

BTW - I live in AZ.

Posted by: eastvalleyphx at August 31, 2011 07:21 AM (qiOph)

8 Maybe this is the AoS no linking to NYT carried to the logical extent... no linking to any MSM..

Posted by: IreneFingIrene at August 31, 2011 07:21 AM (JNqU9)

9 Compare and contrast Texas with England (or any deep blue American city). Any further questions?

Posted by: Sub-Tard at August 31, 2011 07:22 AM (0M3AQ)

10 I'd love to see -- just for the reaction -- someone in some jurisdiction with an initiative process try to float an initiative that would:  1) place no restrictions on the right to use deadly force on a home intruder; 2) unless the intrudee is an elected official, in which case they must give the intruder an opportunity to leave if the official cannot flee.

Posted by: SFGoth at August 31, 2011 07:22 AM (dZ756)

11 PS - I haven't updated my spreadsheet, but with a -25 on rasmussen today, August has been Obama's worst month on record thus far.  He'll clock in at a -21 for the month.  Due to rounding, that means his passion index was at least a full 4 points lower than July, but was actually a bit more.

He is in heap big trouble.

Posted by: alexthedude at August 31, 2011 07:22 AM (iLD9h)

12 How about a simpler rule -- if you've entered someone's house unlawfully, at night, the law should assume the reasonableness of shooting him?

It should, but lawyers have been making too much on cases such as ones where a burglar falls through a skylight and sues the homeowner for having an unsafe property.

Of course, Shakespeare had a solution for dealing with that problem, too.

Posted by: Brandon In Baton Rouge at August 31, 2011 07:23 AM (VZ10+)

13 The law in CA says you have to "retreat" if that option is available to you. Long and short of it is that if you shoot someone in your house, you are in a world of shit.

Posted by: navybrat at August 31, 2011 07:24 AM (wzfkL)

14 this is just a racist attempt to put down those fine black youths in Milwaukee, just because whites thought they got a bit uppity at the State Fair.

Posted by: al sharpton at August 31, 2011 07:24 AM (T1boi)

15 Oh, turns out Big 5 Sporting Goods carries rifles and shotguns.  So, howsabout:
http://big5sportinggoods.shoplocal.com/big5 /default.aspx?action=detail&storeid=2503823&rapid= 0&listingid=-2082939199&offerid=

Posted by: SFGoth at August 31, 2011 07:24 AM (dZ756)

16 11 PS - I haven't updated my spreadsheet, but with a -25 on rasmussen today, August has been Obama's worst month on record thus far.  He'll clock in at a -21 for the month.  Due to rounding, that means his passion index was at least a full 4 points lower than July, but was actually a bit more.

Well your passion index would be down if you had to spend two weeks with Michelle and those darn kids on an island in MA. Jeebus.

Posted by: Sub-Tard at August 31, 2011 07:24 AM (0M3AQ)

17

The Castle Doctrine just passed here a bit ago, i think.

So this wouldn't be a concern here.

 

Posted by: Ben at August 31, 2011 07:25 AM (wuv1c)

18 13 The law in CA says you have to "retreat" if that option is available to you. Long and short of it is that if you shoot someone in your house, you are in a world of shit.

Glad I don't live in Cali. 

In my area, the "They're comin' right for us!" defense works as long as it isn't a police SWAT team doing a no-knock raid.

Posted by: Brandon In Baton Rouge at August 31, 2011 07:25 AM (VZ10+)

19 Break into my house at night, you will get your shit fucked up. 

And that's just the two vicious kittehs.


Posted by: Jane D'oh at August 31, 2011 07:25 AM (UOM48)

20 13 The law in CA says you have to "retreat" if that option is available to you. Long and short of it is that if you shoot someone in your house, you are in a world of shit.
  Not if there is only one person that can testify. "He coming straight at me!"

Posted by: Sub-Tard at August 31, 2011 07:26 AM (0M3AQ)

21 Why only at night, Ace?

Posted by: Jahiliyya at August 31, 2011 07:26 AM (3hezO)

22

>>>The law in CA says you have to "retreat" if that option is available to you. Long and short of it is that if you shoot someone in your house, you are in a world of shit.

So you're supposed to run out of your house if someone breaks in with a gun or a knife?

What if you have a wife and kids in the house? Do you leave them there?

That makes no sense

Posted by: Ben at August 31, 2011 07:26 AM (wuv1c)

23 If you're breaking into someone's house at night without invitation or purpose, then prepared to get pegged.

Posted by: EC at August 31, 2011 07:27 AM (GQ8sn)

24

What? Are you advocating taking away the right of the intruder to flee before using force?

You mean defend your home like it was some kind of medieval fortification? What ever would they call it? The medieval fortification doctrine?

Thats just crazy talk.

Posted by: Jollyroger at August 31, 2011 07:27 AM (NCw5u)

25 Hitler discovers Obama is a SCoaMF

Posted by: Quilly Mammoth at August 31, 2011 07:27 AM (gcxdG)

26 "That makes no sense"

No kidding...

Posted by: navybrat at August 31, 2011 07:27 AM (wzfkL)

27

Castle Law. 31 States.

'nuf said.

Posted by: chuck in st paul at August 31, 2011 07:27 AM (EhYdw)

28 </span></p>

Wisconsin libs have issues regarding invading other peoples' property, apparently.

Posted by: DarkLord© sez Obama is a stuttering clusterf--- of a miserable failure
Oh, and F--- Nevada!
at August 31, 2011 07:27 AM (GBXon)

29 That makes no sense

Forget it Ben, it's Californiatown.

Posted by: DarkLord© sez Obama is a stuttering clusterf--- of a miserable failure
Oh, and F--- Nevada!
at August 31, 2011 07:28 AM (GBXon)

30 What's 'night' got to do with it?

Posted by: Dennis at August 31, 2011 07:29 AM (sb8LP)

31 Deep blue state says it all. They want to protect the criminals FROM the lawful citizens. Why in the world would I not assume that an unlawful intruder in my house is NOT there to do great harm to me and my family? A chance to retreat? They had a chance not to enter my house! Choices have no consequences to Liberals. They are as dumb as Obama, who is a Stuttering Clusterfuck of a Miserable Failure.

Posted by: Mephitis at August 31, 2011 07:29 AM (hAI7R)

32 Remember this?

On May 5 at around 9:30 a.m., several teams of Pima County, Ariz., police officers from at least four different police agencies armed with SWAT gear and an armored personnel carrier raided at least four homes as part of what at the time was described as an investigation into alleged marijuana trafficking. One of those homes belonged to 26-year-old Jose Guerena and his wife, Vanessa Guerena. The couple's 4-year-old son was also in the house at the time. Their 6-year-old son was at school.

As the SWAT team forced its way into his home, Guerena, a former Marine who served two tours of duty in Iraq, armed himself with his AR-15 rifle and told his wife and son to hide in a closet. As the officers entered, Guerena confronted them from the far end of a long, dark hallway.The police opened fire,  releasing more than 70 rounds in about 7 seconds, at least 60 of which struck Guerena. He was pronounced dead a little over an hour later.


Posted by: Jane D'oh at August 31, 2011 07:29 AM (UOM48)

33 22

I believe that in CA you have to engage the troubled individual and attempt to identify those external factors (racism, classism --- aw hell, any "ism" will do) that contributed to his poor self-esteem.  Then give him all of your money and let him rape your wife and kids.

Then say thanks.

Posted by: eastvalleyphx at August 31, 2011 07:29 AM (qiOph)

34 4 Judged by 12 or carried by 6.

Exactly.  A person's home is their castle - anyone entering it uninvited should expect dire consequences for their affront. 

Posted by: Kratos (Ghost of Sparta) at August 31, 2011 07:29 AM (9hSKh)

35
What's this?

Obama is gonna address the full Congress on jobs?

Posted by: soothsayer at August 31, 2011 07:30 AM (G/zuv)

36 If you put up with living in a blue state you should be used to having your shit stolen.

Posted by: sTevo at August 31, 2011 07:30 AM (uIz80)

37 Always good to keep a clean throw away weapon around for just such an occasion.

Posted by: garrett at August 31, 2011 07:31 AM (nfVm6)

38 35
What's this?

Obama is gonna address the full Congress on jobs?

Yes I is.

Posted by: Barky the Orator at August 31, 2011 07:31 AM (UOM48)

39 I posted this in the open thread earlier this morning. The guy wasn't in my house, but there are times when I inadvertently leave the garage open at night. I probably would have reacted much differently if he had gone in there as it is attached to the house with access inside....

So...at about 3:30 this morning my puppy Gonzo the Ridiculous woke my wife and me up barking. Usually she clams down after the "quiet" command, but she kept at it. It was cool last night so we had the windows open and it became obvious she was hearing something outside. We live on a cul-de-sac and we usually don't have any cars going by at night.

I got up and looked out the window, and sure enough, I see someone with his head in my trash can which was at the curb for pickup day.

We had a spate of car break-ins last summer, and one neighbor was recently a victim of ID theft and is going through shit trying to clean that up.

By the time I got downstairs and out the door, he was in my neighbors can. I walked up behind him and grabbed him by the shirt at the neck...and turned him around and asked him what the fuck he was doing. He was actually wearing a head-mounted flashlight.

He just looked at me and said he was doing nothing wrong. I had grabbed my Glock and stuck it in my shorts as I went out, but I decided not to shoot him

I went back in to call 911..but the wife was actually doing it. Meanwhile the trash diver kept on his merry way going through other peoples shit.

The cops came and told us that they were aware of this guy and had been called on him many times, but there was nothing they could do. The guy just says he's collecting cans, which is bullshit because we have separate recycling bins.

This morning my wife talked to someone else in the neighborhood and said she had seen the guy a few weeks ago pulling bags out of the trash can and tossing them into a van.

We have no sidewalks, so there can be no easement anyone can claim between one and the curb. My cans were actually about six feet from the curb on my property.

Just a warning folks...be sure to shred everything with your personal info on it, because trash cans and everything in it are legally accessible to anyone passing by.

Posted by: beedubya at August 31, 2011 07:31 AM (AnTyA)

40 We have a make my day law in Colorado

Posted by: Joe at August 31, 2011 07:32 AM (HrITt)

41 Moral:  In California, use a silenced weapon and dispose properly of the remains.

/sarc

Posted by: DarkLord© sez Obama is a stuttering clusterf--- of a miserable failure
Oh, and F--- Nevada!
at August 31, 2011 07:32 AM (GBXon)

42 The best outcome for the home owner is to convince the intruder to leave without a messy shooting.  Hopefully my Smith and Wesson 500 is sufficiently convincing.

Posted by: Bob Saget at August 31, 2011 07:32 AM (F/4zf)

43 If you're in my house, uninvited, you're getting shot.

Not even a rack of the Mossy to tell you where I am.  You'll know that soon enough.

BTW - I live in AZ.

Posted by: eastvalleyphx at August 31, 2011 12:21 PM (qiOph)

Here, the big case when I was in crim law was about a homeowner who witnessed a burglary at his NEIGHBOR's house, called 911, and calmly described the robbery for about 10 minutes. When it looked like the thieves would get away, he told the operator he was going out there, pumped the shotgun, walked outside and proceeded to subdue the thieves with his winning smile and 00 buck, but mostly 00 buck.

The grand jury decided not to indict. Welcome to Texas. But what would you expect when we have a Governor with his own edition pistol?

Posted by: Jollyroger at August 31, 2011 07:32 AM (NCw5u)

44

Posted by: beedubya at August 31, 2011 12:31 PM (AnTyA)

 

 Claim that he threw something out in your garbage and he can be arrested and cited for theft of services.

Posted by: garrett at August 31, 2011 07:34 AM (nfVm6)

45 Not a problem.

Posted by: A Clean Shiny Throw Down at August 31, 2011 07:34 AM (EL+OC)

46 That Hitler finds out Obama is a SCoaMF is brilliant!!!

Posted by: steevy at August 31, 2011 07:34 AM (1Nzoh)

47 Posted by: Jollyroger at August 31, 2011 12:32 PM (NCw5u)

Yeah, I remember that case.  Good on him.  And good on TX.

Posted by: eastvalleyphx at August 31, 2011 07:34 AM (qiOph)

48 Just a warning folks...be sure to shred everything with your personal info on it, because trash cans and everything in it are legally accessible to anyone passing by.

Posted by: beedubya at August 31, 2011 12:31 PM (AnTyA)


Same thing happened in our neighborhood in the People's Republic of Illinois.  Caught a guy opening trash bags and fishing stuff out (recycling was in separate containers).  Cops told the neighbors once trash is on the street, it's public domain.

Buy a shredder.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at August 31, 2011 07:35 AM (UOM48)

49

I like  it here in Texas. We can legally use deadly force to defend ourselves if anyone, at any time of the day breaks in or even attempts to break into our homes, cars and places of employment.

The actor's belief that the force was immediately necessary as described by this subsection is presumed to be reasonable if the actor:

(1) knew or had reason to believe that the person against whom the force was used:

(A) unlawfully and with force entered, or was attempting to enter unlawfully and with force, the actor's occupied habitation, vehicle, or place of business or employment

So, I'm feeding any intruder a lead sandwich . . .

Posted by: MWTexas at August 31, 2011 07:36 AM (N05oL)

50 I'm conflicted about this.  One one hand, I see this as a positive for jobs and the economy.  Dead bad guys have to be cleaned up.  Think of the demand this would create for dead bad guy picker uppers. 

On the other hand, what if these are jobs that Americans just won't do?  Won't help the illegal alien issue now, will it.

Posted by: Hussein the Plumber at August 31, 2011 07:36 AM (jx2j9)

51 In southern Missouri, it's pretty much accepted that the landowner can shoot to kill if you even ACT like you might trespass. Prosecutors are forced to file in these types of cases of course, but know full well they're wasting their time.

Posted by: Dave at August 31, 2011 07:37 AM (Xm1aB)

52 Here in Georgia, you have the right to use deadly force....if they are in your house.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at August 31, 2011 07:37 AM (UOM48)

53

SO, ANYTHING TO ENSURE MORE BROWN PEOPLE GET KILLED?

 

BARACK IS GOING TO REPLACE BIDEN *SPIT* WITH THE GREAT CIVIL RIGHTS WARRIOR THE MOST REVEREND AL SHARPTON CLINCHING A MASSIVE LANDSLIDE AND ENSURING THE NEXT 12 YEARS OF NON-RASCIST NON-FACIST PROGRESSIVE RULE!

Posted by: KayInMaine at August 31, 2011 07:38 AM (QVGHk)

54 Posted by: KayInMaine at August 31, 2011 12:38 PM (QVGHk)

Sock?

Posted by: eastvalleyphx at August 31, 2011 07:39 AM (qiOph)

55 How about a simpler rule -- if you've entered someone's house unlawfully, at night, the law should assume the reasonableness of shooting him?

Given the mixed up pronouns and person You-> Him, this looks like the work of Law Review Preznit Barry.

Posted by: Luke Duke at August 31, 2011 07:39 AM (C9AkW)

56 35
What's this?

Obama is gonna address the full Congress on jobs?
  Funny, really, they all have jobs? Why not address those who don't and allow for Q&A in a nice town hall setting? Is Phil Donohue still alive?

Posted by: Sub-Tard at August 31, 2011 07:39 AM (0M3AQ)

57 52 Here in Georgia, you have the right to use deadly force....if they are in your house.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at August 31, 2011 12:37 PM (UOM4

I guess they make you go through all the trouble of having to drag them inside and mess up your rug.

Too bad too. It really tied the room together.

Posted by: Jollyroger at August 31, 2011 07:40 AM (NCw5u)

58 Claim that he threw something out in your garbage and he can be arrested and cited for theft of services.

Posted by: garrett at August 31, 2011 12:34 PM (nfVm6)


Actually, my neighbor, who is an attorney,  came out when he heard the ruckus and suggested to the cops that they could get the guy for operating w/o a permit as he was claiming to be just going after cans which he presumably would be cashing in.

Posted by: beedubya at August 31, 2011 07:40 AM (AnTyA)

59 I live in California and I don't give a shit if it's day or night.  If you enter my home without my permission I will assume your are intent on bodily harm.  I promise I will shoot you in the head or chest just like my father taught me.  I'm only 5'1" so anyone taller than me is a potential threat.  I'm short but I'm meaner than cat shit.  Oh and I'm a ginger.

Posted by: mpfs, TPT at August 31, 2011 07:40 AM (iYbLN)

60

OT   BREAKING: Hazmat Crews at Scott Air Force Base, 3 Hospitalized

Hazmat crews descend on Scott Air Force Base after a suspicious package sends three to the hospital and prompt evacuations of several facilities on the base.

“Currently we’re responding to a suspicious package that occurred at the official mail center (Building 1650),” SAFB spokesman Lt. Benjamin Garland tells KMOX News.

He said they’re not releasing any further information about the “suspicious package” or what it may have contained at this time. However the package reportedly emitted a sulphur-like smell. http://tinyurl.com/3ezwf3u

Posted by: Deanna at August 31, 2011 07:40 AM (32VgY)

61 Here in California, gun owners are seen as introducing the element of unnecessary danger where otherwise it wouldn't exist. In California, personal safety is a ruse, a diversion invented by the NRA and the Tea Party.

This is true if you're an activist who has made a life of screaming obscenities into the faces of helpless public officials without fear of retribution.

An Armed Society is a polite society. This is exactly what liberals wish to avoid.

How much different our society would be if we could call a man out onto the street. Barbaric? Perhaps. But it's not like I'm surrounded by peaceful bliss. Crime in my area isn't getting better as marijuana growers invade, our children are fat, stupid, lazy and entitled, Britain just exploded, the economy's in the shitter, politics continues to hit epic new lows of dishonesty and vitriol as the President tells me to shut up and wear my big boy pants while everything he does turns into dog crap.

Yea, I can't IMAGINE why gun sales are skyrocketing nationwide.

Posted by: Look at the size of my gun at August 31, 2011 07:41 AM (pVvkk)

62 Is this possibly the shortest article Ace has posted in the history of this blog?

Posted by: katya, the designated driver at August 31, 2011 07:41 AM (a/SeY)

63 We have a make my day law in Colorado Posted by: Joe

It apparently doesn't cover businesses.

Police said in a 145-page investigative report that the intruder had knives in his pockets and one strapped to his ankle, but never posed a threat to Milanovic or the other men.
And he was a meth addict.

Posted by: Dang at August 31, 2011 07:42 AM (TXKVh)

64 50 I'm conflicted about this. One one hand, I see this as a positive for jobs and the economy. Dead bad guys have to be cleaned up. Think of the demand this would create for dead bad guy picker uppers.
_________

BRING OUT YOUR DEAD!

Posted by: You would have been disappointed if I hadn't at August 31, 2011 07:42 AM (xGZ+b)

65 Posted by: MWTexas at August 31, 2011 12:36 PM (N05oL)

Roger that.  I've got six shots of S&W .357 blunt tip high-grain count defense load waiting for any smart ass who shows up in my house, especially after dark.  I consider my assumption that such an intruder is armed and intending mortal harm to me and mine to be imminently reasonable, and will act accordingly.

Posted by: Blacksheep at August 31, 2011 07:42 AM (8/DeP)

66 Oh and I'm a ginger.

Soul or no soul?

Posted by: EC at August 31, 2011 07:42 AM (GQ8sn)

67 57 52 Here in Georgia, you have the right to use deadly force....if they are in your house.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at August 31, 2011 12:37 PM (UOM4

I guess they make you go through all the trouble of having to drag them inside and mess up your rug.

Too bad too. It really tied the room together.


Yeah, and you have to clean up the blood stains off the porch and doorway where you dragged the body.  Sigh.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at August 31, 2011 07:42 AM (UOM48)

68 Wisconsin? Wisconsin is weird I wouldn't touch it with Mike "The Situation's" junk.

Posted by: Snooki at August 31, 2011 07:42 AM (14jKX)

69

So you're supposed to run out of your house if someone breaks in with a gun or a knife?

What if you have a wife and kids in the house? Do you leave them there?

That makes no sense

Posted by: Ben at August 31, 2011 12:26 PM (wuv1c)

Not much about KKKalifornia makes sense.

NC was like that as well. The newly elected Republican Legislature corrected that little problem.

Posted by: blindside at August 31, 2011 07:42 AM (x7g7t)

70

KayInMaine at August 31, 2011 12:38 PM (QVGHk)

Not sure if serious

Posted by: Jollyroger at August 31, 2011 07:43 AM (NCw5u)

71 You come into my house, it's open season.

Posted by: © Sponge at August 31, 2011 07:43 AM (UK9cE)

72 Liberal WA state has a stand-your-ground law. Incredibly.

Posted by: Barbarian at August 31, 2011 07:43 AM (EL+OC)

73 Oh and I'm a ginger.

Soul or no soul?
Posted by: EC

Depends on the day of the week.

Posted by: mpfs, TPT at August 31, 2011 07:43 AM (iYbLN)

74 #35, Not only do it in front of a joint session of Congress but on Sept. 7. The Republican debate night with Perry being part for the first time. No politics there..

Posted by: The terrorist Hobbit formerly known as Donna at August 31, 2011 07:44 AM (OVCfn)

75 We have a make my day law in Colorado Posted by: Joe

It apparently doesn't cover businesses.

Police said in a 145-page investigative report that the intruder had knives in his pockets and one strapped to his ankle, but never posed a threat to Milanovic or the other men.
And he was a meth addict.

Posted by: Dang at August 31, 2011 12:42 PM (TXKVh)

He wasn't charged criminally.  He was found liable civilly. 

Posted by: WalrusRex at August 31, 2011 07:44 AM (Hx5uv)

76

Does anyone else get as annoyed as I do that we even have to debate this question?

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at August 31, 2011 07:44 AM (B+qrE)

77 Do any of my fellow texans know what tomorrow is? It has to do with senate bill 321!!!

Posted by: cowboyup at August 31, 2011 07:44 AM (9oNaP)

78

"But the statists don't want it really clear. They don't want a simple bright line rule. Bright line rules take them out of the equation.

What they want are muddled rules with complicated balancing-factors tests which always reserve a place for agents of the government to evaluate the actions of a citizen, and either bless it or condemn it."

I agree 100% with this assertion.

I personally believe that the criminal act of taking action to violate a citizens right to be safe in their person and property automatically revokes the criminals stautus as a citizen. I don't know for certain what status that does afford him, but it would be somewhere far south of citizenship and he forfiets many or all of the rights of citizenship. Including the right to be secure in his person which makes him fair game for retaliation by the homeowner up to and including the use of deadly force to stop the invasion.

I don't htink any rational person could argue otherwise.

Polititians raely fall under my interpretation of a rational person.

Posted by: Jeffersonian at August 31, 2011 07:45 AM (oZ3AI)

79

Not only do it in front of a joint session of Congress but on Sept. 7.

Are we going to comingle and hold hands again?

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at August 31, 2011 07:45 AM (B+qrE)

80 59 I live in California and I don't give a shit if it's day or night.  If you enter my home without my permission I will assume your are intent on bodily harm.  I promise I will shoot you in the head or chest just like my father taught me.  I'm only 5'1" so anyone taller than me is a potential threat.  I'm short but I'm meaner than cat shit.  Oh and I'm a ginger.

Posted by: mpfs, TPT at August 31, 2011 12:40 PM (iYbLN)

Male or female?

Posted by: Lord Humungus Wasteland Teahadi at August 31, 2011 07:45 AM (Yv6gq)

81 That's not a law. That's the opposite of law-- an ad hoc right of a prosecutor or judge to surprise citizens with their own idiosyncratic, personal "law" for the day.

You know this is one of the things the Founders were fighting against in the Revolution (and then fixing in the Constitutional convention) right?  The fact that British law had become such a patchwork of "laws," "principles," and judicial rulings that no one was quite sure what the law actually was on many issues.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) is tired beyond tired of the trolls at August 31, 2011 07:45 AM (8y9MW)

82

Look at it this way.

If someone is breaking into your house, at any time, they probably haven't told a lot of people where they were planning to be.

So as long as no one finds the body it's totally legit.

Posted by: Entropy at August 31, 2011 07:45 AM (IsLT6)

83 While I'm at it since Ace has a thing for the old lady Althouse... and wants to dabble with Gellars..... Mike "the Situation" =ace Pam Gellar's tits= the wall. Have at it you old lady chaser.

Posted by: Snooki at August 31, 2011 07:45 AM (14jKX)

84

There's a general understanding that night-time is different. Bad things happen at night.

But I'll get tighter groupings in daylight!

Posted by: Insomniac at August 31, 2011 07:47 AM (v+QvA)

85

So you're supposed to run out of your house if someone breaks in with a gun or a knife?

What if you have a wife and kids in the house? Do you leave them there?

That makes no sense

Posted by: Ben at August 31, 2011 12:26 PM (wuv1c)



Sorry, but name ONE thing in California that makes sense.....

One.Thing.

Posted by: © Sponge at August 31, 2011 07:47 AM (UK9cE)

86 71 You come into my house, it's open season.

As the song by Stuck Mojo goes...

Posted by: Kratos (Ghost of Sparta) at August 31, 2011 07:47 AM (9hSKh)

87 We have a make my day law in Colorado Posted by: Joe

It apparently doesn't cover businesses.

Police said in a 145-page investigative report that the intruder had knives in his pockets and one strapped to his ankle, but never posed a threat to Milanovic or the other men.
And he was a meth addict.

Posted by: Dang at August 31, 2011 12:42 PM (TXKVh)

He wasn't charged criminally.  He was found liable civilly. 

Posted by: WalrusRex

And that sucks.

Posted by: Dang at August 31, 2011 07:47 AM (TXKVh)

88 People are more likely to be at home, and maybe even asleep, at night.  that makes breaking in at night a bigger threat.

Posted by: Greg Q at August 31, 2011 07:47 AM (/0a60)

89

But I'll get tighter groupings in daylight!

Posted by: Insomniac at August 31, 2011 12:47 PM (v+QvA)


lol

Posted by: eastvalleyphx at August 31, 2011 07:47 AM (qiOph)

90

Sorry, but name ONE thing in California that makes sense.....

One.Thing.

People who live there keep leaving?

Posted by: Entropy at August 31, 2011 07:48 AM (IsLT6)

91 Except in the end it really depends on whether you have enough money to pay the lawyer who has enough experience and knows enough people so that he can deal with the judge/prosecutor/whatever in your favor. Nothing else matters except the wheelin' and the dealin'.

Posted by: dagny at August 31, 2011 07:49 AM (P0l+a)

92

Sorry, but name ONE thing in California that makes sense.....

They do make some decent wine.  That is the only thing that came to mind.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at August 31, 2011 07:49 AM (B+qrE)

93 Missouri has castle doctrine.  In you home and even in your car..... you are free to assume the invader is there not in your best interests and free to use deadly force.

You do not have to "feel threatened", provide "opportunity to flee", "visibilty of weapon", "freebie intruder first shots" or any of the other bullshit considerations.

You are also protected from civil suits originating from family members or surviving intruders.

Posted by: fixerupper at August 31, 2011 07:49 AM (C8hzL)

94 Commiecrats like Maxine Waters prefer their victims unarmed and helpless, like Reingald Denny. Even in their own homes.

Posted by: Curmudgeon at August 31, 2011 07:49 AM (ujg0T)

95
I promise I will shoot you in the head or chest...

Fishsticks, you do both. Chest first, then the head.

Posted by: soothsayer at August 31, 2011 07:50 AM (G/zuv)

96 Sorry, but name ONE thing in California that makes sense.....

One.Thing.

People leaving.

Posted by: Brandon In Baton Rouge at August 31, 2011 07:50 AM (VZ10+)

97 My nephew who now is a Ca libtard told me that Ca doesn't even have good beaches like the east coast? Really then WTF with the whole fucking place?

Posted by: dagny at August 31, 2011 07:50 AM (P0l+a)

98 Lawyers want this complexity too, because then you have to hire one of those blood sucking leeches (no offense to actual leeches) to do the most mundane legal tasks.

Posted by: Darin H at August 31, 2011 07:50 AM (3kW1y)

99 People who live there keep leaving?

Why do they keep going back?

Posted by: RioBravo at August 31, 2011 07:50 AM (eEfYn)

100 85

There's a general understanding that night-time is different. Bad things happen at night.

But I'll get tighter groupings in daylight!

 

Use a shotgun. Just point and squeeze. A couple of times. Pumps work best at clearing a room without firing a shot. Something about that racking sound tells folks to get the fuck off my lawn quickly.

Posted by: Sub-Tard at August 31, 2011 07:51 AM (0M3AQ)

101 77 Do any of my fellow texans know what tomorrow is? It has to do with senate bill 321!!!

Posted by: cowboyup at August 31, 2011 12:44 PM (9oNaP)

Bi-monthly shoot something day? Or maybe the semi quarterly "byob at the local range" day?

Posted by: Jollyroger at August 31, 2011 07:51 AM (NCw5u)

102 Hell,  in Texas you can shoot 'em for graffiti if it's your property getting painted and it's at night.

Posted by: Dang at August 31, 2011 07:51 AM (TXKVh)

103 35 What's this?

Obama is gonna address the full Congress on jobs?

He has requested a joint session, meaning Congress does not to say yes but will face the wrath of the general public if they say no.

Posted by: Miss80sBaby at August 31, 2011 07:52 AM (o2lIv)

104

Buy a shredder.

Got one.  We shred every frickin' thing that comes in the mail.  Our college age kids shred stuff like it's instinct.

Posted by: katya, the designated driver at August 31, 2011 07:52 AM (a/SeY)

105 But the statists lawyers don't want it really clear.

FIFY

Posted by: AmishDude at August 31, 2011 07:52 AM (T0NGe)

106
Sept 7th, eh?

That reminds me...it's sickening how Obama is using 9/11 to push his agenda with a call for everyone to "work together" as Americans just like they did on 9/11.

Posted by: soothsayer at August 31, 2011 07:52 AM (G/zuv)

107 41 Moral:  In California, use a silenced weapon and dispose properly of the remains.

/sarc

Posted by: DarkLord© sez Obama is a stuttering clusterf--- of a miserable failure
Oh, and F--- Nevada!
at August 31, 2011 12:32 PM (GBXon)

The old 3S rule:

Shoot.

Shovel.

Shut up.

 

Posted by: Insomniac at August 31, 2011 07:52 AM (v+QvA)

108 I promise I will shoot you in the head or chest...

Fishsticks, you do both. Chest first, then the head.

Posted by: soothsayer at August 31, 2011 12:50 PM (G/zuv)

Now they tell me.

Posted by: Zombie Osama at August 31, 2011 07:52 AM (NCw5u)

109 100 Why do they keep going back?

For every Californian who leaves, there's 1.3 Mexicans to take his place. It's getting so that automated phone systems here are answering in Spanish, first.

Posted by: Look at the size of my gun at August 31, 2011 07:54 AM (0tRzD)

110

Same thing happened in our neighborhood in the People's Republic of Illinois.  Caught a guy opening trash bags and fishing stuff out (recycling was in separate containers).  Cops told the neighbors once trash is on the street, it's public domain.

Buy a shredder.

Thing is...I asked the cop what "at the curb" meant, and she couldn't give me an answer. I keep my trash cans on the side of the garage. I asked her if it were OK if he got into them there. She declined to give an answer.

I do have a shredder, but occasionally things might get through.

Posted by: beedubya at August 31, 2011 07:54 AM (AnTyA)

111 96
I promise I will shoot you in the head or chest...

Fishsticks, you do both. Chest first, then the head.

Posted by: soothsayer at August 31, 2011 12:50 PM (G/zuv)

Yep.  Mozambique Drill a/k/a Failure to Stop Drill.  Two to center mass, then one controlled shot to the head. 

Posted by: Insomniac at August 31, 2011 07:54 AM (v+QvA)

112 Looks like in some states in addition to keeping a weapon for self protection you need a nice sized wood chipper.

Posted by: kansas at August 31, 2011 07:55 AM (mka2b)

113
newd post

Posted by: soothsayer at August 31, 2011 07:55 AM (G/zuv)

114 104 35 What's this?

Obama is gonna address the full Congress on jobs?

He has requested a joint session, meaning Congress does not to say yes but will face the wrath of the general public if they say no.
  Given Sparky's deep concern for others opinions, I would recommend the pubbies go to a bar and watch TeeVee or something. The funny thing is this will be at 12:00 noon. Who in the hell will be home watching other than the unemployed and Government weinies. But I repeat myself.

Posted by: Sub-Tard at August 31, 2011 07:56 AM (0M3AQ)

115 Dead intruders tell no tales (especially to a jury, - 52% of whom may be idiots).

Posted by: Fritz at August 31, 2011 07:57 AM (/ZZCn)

116

I personally believe that the criminal act of taking action to violate a citizens right to be safe in their person and property automatically revokes the criminals stautus as a citizen.

I don't htink any rational person could argue otherwise.

Posted by: Jeffersonian

Yes, we can and should if the Constitution is to be held supreme.

The principle of self-defense has nothing to do citizenship.

Take a second and think about the the raft of abuse that would result if somehow citizenship could be jeopardized by false witness.

Unnecessary muddying of the waters.

Posted by: weft cut-loop at August 31, 2011 07:57 AM (s1vtf)

117 For every Californian who leaves, there's 1.3 Mexicans to take his place. It's getting so that automated phone systems here are answering in Spanish, first.

A lot of them don't speak Spanish. Next it will be Press 1 for Mayan, 2 for Spanish...

Posted by: RioBravo at August 31, 2011 07:57 AM (eEfYn)

118

The old 3S rule:

Shoot.

Shovel.

Shut up.

I don't know why that reminds me of this...

http://tinyurl.com/3ek4nxj

Posted by: Entropy at August 31, 2011 07:58 AM (IsLT6)

119 113 96
I promise I will shoot you in the head or chest...

Fishsticks, you do both. Chest first, then the head.

Posted by: soothsayer at August 31, 2011 12:50 PM (G/zuv)

Yep.  Mozambique Drill a/k/a Failure to Stop Drill.  Two to center mass, then one controlled shot to the head. 

 

Shotguns work better. There are no holes, just a couple of pieces of flesh hanging on some bones. Paramedics hate that shit. Messes up their cool uniforms.

Posted by: Sub-Tard at August 31, 2011 07:58 AM (0M3AQ)

120 114 Looks like in some states in addition to keeping a weapon for self protection you need a nice sized wood chipper.

Do they sell those in "Busecmi-size" like the one in Fargo?

Posted by: Brandon In Baton Rouge at August 31, 2011 07:59 AM (VZ10+)

121 88 - so lessons learned there 1) drop piece and 2) get them all; the police should get one story - yours.

Posted by: Jean at August 31, 2011 08:00 AM (WkuV6)

122 As the song by Stuck Mojo goes...

Posted by: Kratos (Ghost of Sparta) at August 31, 2011 12:47 PM (9hSKh)



Shockingly enough, I learned of that tune on LGF.....

Back before 'bicycle with the seat missing' CJ lost his mind......

Posted by: © Sponge at August 31, 2011 08:00 AM (UK9cE)

123 74 #35, Not only do it in front of a joint session of Congress but on Sept. 7. The Republican debate night with Perry being part for the first time. No politics there..

The lefties in the media are unsurprisingly praising Obama's "combative approach".


Posted by: Miss80sBaby at August 31, 2011 08:00 AM (o2lIv)

124 102 77 Do any of my fellow texans know what tomorrow is? It has to do with senate bill 321!!!

Posted by: cowboyup at August 31, 2011 12:44 PM (9oNaP)

Bi-monthly shoot something day? Or maybe the semi quarterly "byob at the local range" day?

Posted by: Jollyroger at August 31, 2011 12:51 PM (NCw5u)

No but those are pretty good ideas too. It's actually the day the Texas Employee/Parking Lot Protection Bill takes effect.

Posted by: cowboyup at August 31, 2011 08:01 AM (9oNaP)

125 Easy solution for the CA problem. Say the intruder was littering. Or threatening to smoke.  Or vote Republican.

Posted by: Oldcat at August 31, 2011 08:01 AM (z1N6a)

126

Castle Law. 31 States.

'nuf said.


Not really.  Michigan, where I live, has the Castle Law or the Stand Your Ground Law, as it's often called.  It seems pretty straight forward...until one reads the instructions that are given by the judge to a jury sitting on a self-defense shooting inside the home case.

It's pretty fucked up and not so straight forward at all about the "no duty to retreat" thing.


Posted by: fly at August 31, 2011 08:05 AM (R9Sum)

127 "Buy a shredder."

I recommend the one from the movie "Fargo."  It would solve two of the problems being discussed in this thread - rendering the personal information in your trash useless, and disposing of goblins caught breaking into your house at night.  All hail the economical, dual-purpose solution!

Posted by: Keith Arnold at August 31, 2011 08:07 AM (Jdtsu)

128 The law in CA says you have to "retreat" if that option is available to you.

I think someone's lying to you. I just finished taking a gun safety class in California -- it included the laws -- and this wasn't anywhere in it.

I don't have my notes in front of me right now, but I'm pretty sure that this exception they're talking about in Wisconsin is actually part of California law.

(That said, the idjits in the legislature are currently trying to outlaw open carry, which would have the unintended side effect of turning California into a CCW Must Issue state.)

Posted by: Meiczyslaw at August 31, 2011 08:07 AM (bjRNS)

129 130: would have the unintended side effect of turning California into a CCW Must Issue state

NEVER. HAPPEN. EVER.

Posted by: Look at the size of my gun at August 31, 2011 08:11 AM (0tRzD)

130

To weft cut-loop.

(I personally believe that the criminal act of taking action to violate a citizens right to be safe in their person and property automatically revokes the criminals stautus as a citizen.

I don't htink any rational person could argue otherwise.

Posted by: Jeffersonian

Yes, we can and should if the Constitution is to be held supreme.

The principle of self-defense has nothing to do citizenship.

Take a second and think about the the raft of abuse that would result if somehow citizenship could be jeopardized by false witness.

Unnecessary muddying of the waters. )

I stand by my interpretation of the constution. It affords me the right to be secure in my property and person. One who would attempt to strip me of those rights forfeits his right to the same protections.

There are laws against false witness. And that is not the issue here.You are the one muddying the waters with straw men and rationalizations.

Posted by: Jeffersonian at August 31, 2011 08:21 AM (oZ3AI)

131

I'm only 5'1" so anyone taller than me is a potential threat.  I'm short but I'm meaner than cat shit.  Oh and I'm a ginger.

Measurements, please. I think I am in love. :-) (Alas, I am already married)

Posted by: Curmudgeon at August 31, 2011 08:24 AM (ujg0T)

132 You rang?

Posted by: .357 Magnum at August 31, 2011 08:27 AM (f8XyF)

133 Sandra Day O'Connor, the judicial decision-maker who couldn't make a decision, made a true hash of the law by always trying to punt on decisions, refusing to establish bright-line rules, instead favoring complex, lengthy laundry-lists of "balancing factors" to be considered in future disputes. This is simply litigation bait -- because no one knows what the rule is (Sandra Day refused to announce one), people have to litigate endlessly to see how they'll come down in the fifteen-questions tests she favored.

So true.  Those 15-factor "balancing tests" are not tests at all.  A "test" (as that word is used in legal jargon) is a metaphor taken from the early days of popular science -- the famous "litmus test" to establish pH.  To call a rule a "test" was an attempt to make law and lawyering more scientific. 

But a "balancing test" is not a test.  It's not binary.  There is nothing to "balance."  The "weights" one might use in this mythical "balancing" process don't exist, cannot be measured, and have no objective quality to them whatsoever. 

At best, the 15-factor evaluations of O'Connor (and her defenders) can be described as a METHOD for eventually arriving at a rule of law.  But they are not rules, in and of themselves.  They might be useful to some people to decide if she LIKES whatever rule that someone actually comes up with, but a "balancing test" does not literally qualify as a rule.

(When I took this position in law school, I was accused of being a sexist, because, apparently, rule-based thinking is a masculine way of thinking, and multi-factor balancing is a feminine way of thinking, and to impose my rule-based system on people (i.e., women) was considered to be so aggressive that it was akin to rape, or something.)

Posted by: Phinn at August 31, 2011 08:30 AM (5yZsp)

134 What if the intruder is a "Wise Latina" she may just be breaking in for a good legal reason my inferior race honky brain cant envision.

Posted by: Shiggz at August 31, 2011 08:34 AM (v8Pb8)

135

There are laws against false witness. And that is not the issue here.You are the one muddying the waters with straw men and rationalizations. Posted by: Jeffersonian

Again, self-defense has nothing to do with the citizenship of some intruder.  And that you hold citizenship that disposable is frightening. 

Imagine the situation where you are accused of stealing property from a neighbor who lies to the police. Under your rubric, the cops can enter your residence without a warrant, arrest you, and hold you without a charge. You may not receive defense or a speedy trial. You have no right to avoid testifying under the 5th.

That legal system that you have invented stands in contradiction to the Constitution.

Posted by: weft cut-loop at August 31, 2011 08:37 AM (s1vtf)

136 You guys are looking at it all wrong.

Think of the confusing state of the law as "regulation" of the unauthorized appropriation industry. 

Posted by: Alec Leamas at August 31, 2011 08:40 AM (mg08E)

137 The suggestion that criminal behavior negates citizenship is not only chilling, but thoroughly retarded. I can't believe American Citizens can actually be so moronically obtuse about their God-given human rights. Unbelivable.

Posted by: Kool-Aid at August 31, 2011 08:44 AM (niW49)

138 At best, the 15-factor evaluations of O'Connor (and her defenders) can be described as a METHOD for eventually arriving at a rule of law.  But they are not rules, in and of themselves.  They might be useful to some people to decide if she LIKES whatever rule that someone actually comes up with, but a "balancing test" does not literally qualify as a rule.

Facts change from case to case.  What do you have when both the facts and the law to be applied to the facts change from case to case?

Posted by: Alec Leamas at August 31, 2011 08:46 AM (mg08E)

139 13 The law in CA says you have to "retreat" if that option is available to you. Long and short of it is that if you shoot someone in your house, you are in a world of shit. Posted by: navybrat at August 31, 2011 12:24 PM (wzfkL) That is not even remotely true. There is a presumption of danger if someone has unlawfully entered your home. I have to run for an appt or I'd link it for y'all but just search for "castle law" and "california", it's been that way for a long time here. While the laws are not great here, everybody thinks it's like Massachusetts or something, it's not remotely like that. We have the crappy magazine restrictions, stupid AW ban, "the list" of approved handguns and *some counties* are defying court orders to issue CCW (most counties do issue under some standard, to the public not just donors, but the biggest pop centers don't *yet*). The worst part is the anti-business climate.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at August 31, 2011 08:47 AM (bxiXv)

140 Sign on window:

"Nothing in here is worth your life."

Posted by: Farmer at August 31, 2011 08:49 AM (2poCc)

141 But remember, the government's 25% is always somehow much bigger than our 25%. 

Posted by: dfbaskwill at August 31, 2011 08:49 AM (71LDo)

142

I'm only 5'1" so anyone taller than me is a potential threat.  I'm short but I'm meaner than cat shit.  Oh and I'm a ginger.

Measurements, please. I think I am in love. :-) (Alas, I am already married)

Posted by: Curmudgeon

36DDD
29
38

I'd rock your world

Posted by: mpfs, TPT at August 31, 2011 08:51 AM (iYbLN)

143 "Nothing in here is worth your life."

The problem with that, like posting here that you'd "blow someone away" if you found them in your house, is that you could find it introduced into evidence in a criminal and/or civil trial someday.

The less said the better, IMO.

Posted by: Alec Leamas at August 31, 2011 08:51 AM (mg08E)

144 We swear it wasn't us in your home last night!  Don't shoot.

Posted by: Gibson Guitars at August 31, 2011 08:52 AM (71LDo)

145 Police said in a 145-page investigative report that the intruder had knives in his pockets and one strapped to his ankle, but never posed a threat to Milanovic or the other men. And he was a meth addict. Posted by: Dang at August 31, 2011 12:42 That case happened in Colorado, right? Where the parents of the dead meth head were whining that he never had a chance to get straight because these guys killed him while he was breaking into their property? Denver has also been the location of a number of violent flash mobs. In these cases, "youths" from an area 15 miles away were coming into an affluent part of downtown Denver and attacking people coming out of restaurants. They would beat them with baseball bats, and then rob them, while yelling racial epithets. It took the police 29 days to decide to warn the citizens of Denver that they might want to be careful because of these flash mobs. 29 days. People were getting skull fractures, and these yobs waited 29 days to say anything. My link-fu is beyond awful, but the article is by John T. Bennett on American Thinker. Read it and weep.

Posted by: moki at August 31, 2011 09:14 AM (dZmFh)

146
He is in heap big trouble.

Racist.

Posted by: I R A Darth Aggie © at August 31, 2011 09:15 AM (1hM1d)

147

An Armed Society is a polite society.

No it isn't.


A Polite Society is a Polite Society.
An Offensive Society is an Offensive Society.
An Armed Society is an Armed Society.
An Unarmed Society is an Unarmed Society.

Civility and armament are neither mutually inclusive nor mutually exclusive. There are quite a few heavily armed societies, both whole cultures and specific subcultures, that are egregiously obnoxious in their personal behavior, with the only thing keeping them under some degree of control is fear of reciprocal violence.
Fear is not the same as civility.
Inded at some point, being civil purely out of  fear approaches overt cowardice.

Just as the "liberal" pretense that an Unarmed Society is always a Polite Society must be rejected, so must the pretense that giving "everyone" a gun will somehow inspire common courtesy be rejected.

Posted by: Sam at August 31, 2011 09:24 AM (V9Tsq)

148

"Again, self-defense has nothing to do with the citizenship of some intruder.  And that you hold citizenship that disposable is frightening. "

 

Apparently you have a rather rigid definition of citizen. I'm out.

Posted by: Jeffersonian at August 31, 2011 09:25 AM (oZ3AI)

149
Here's Florida's law, in a nutshell

It establishes that law-abiding residents and visitors may legally presume the threat of bodily harm or death from anyone who breaks into a residence or occupied vehicle and may use defensive force, including deadly force, against the intruder.

In any other place where a person “has a right to be,” that person has “no duty to retreat” if attacked and may “meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.”

In either case, a person using any force permitted by the law is immune from criminal prosecution or civil action and cannot be arrested unless a law enforcement agency determines there is probable cause that the force used was unlawful.

If a civil action is brought and the court finds the defendant to be immune based on the parameters of the law, the defendant will be awarded all costs of defense. Shamelessly stolen.

My local prosecutor whined when he lost a case to a drug dealer using this law when he defended himself against another drug dealer - who not only initiated hostilities by opening fire, but compounded the error by missing, and it turned out that his competition was a better shot.

Posted by: I R A Darth Aggie © at August 31, 2011 09:25 AM (1hM1d)

150 The law in CA says you have to "retreat" if that option is available to you. Long and short of it is that if you shoot someone in your house, you are in a world of shit.

The Stupid is strong in the California legislature.

Posted by: Blacque Jacques Shellacque at August 31, 2011 09:31 AM (1rHeD)

151 "I'm only 5'1" so anyone taller than me is a potential threat.  I'm short but I'm meaner than cat shit.  Oh and I'm a ginger."



If you enjoy a good scotch whisky and fine cigars, I'd say you're close to being the perfect woman. Which has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Just sayin'...

Posted by: frogmouth at August 31, 2011 09:40 AM (nwbze)

152 Nevada law presumes that if you find an intruder in your house, you perceive an imminent threat of death or serious physical injury.  A prosecutor or plaintiff has to overcome that presumption.  I think that's the perfect way to go.

Posted by: Sbk at August 31, 2011 09:51 AM (XxAYS)

153

Enter my house uninvited, get shot.

 

I'll call the police after, to report the dead body in my house.

Posted by: Jones at August 31, 2011 09:58 AM (8sCoq)

154 If you don't meet Mr. Smith and Mr. Wesson upon entering my house uninvited, hold out for Mr. Louis Ville Slugger. One way or the other, you are exiting horizontal. And I'm just a girl; my husband isn't nearly so forgiving.

Posted by: tcn at August 31, 2011 09:59 AM (MYiUn)

155

>.  I'm short but I'm meaner than cat shit. 

 

 

 mmm.. cat shit not so mean. Try 'I'm meaner than the First Lady when someone gets between her and a plate of tamales'.

Posted by: Jones at August 31, 2011 10:01 AM (8sCoq)

156 Dunno if this is still the case, but in Maryland, they had the retreat law in the 1990's, when my family lived there.  A guy a couple of subdivisions down was thrown in jail and sued in civil court because someone broke in, guy went downstairs to see what it was, and the burglar grabbed the guy, threatened to kill him, then rape his daughter and wife then kill them too.  The homeowner pushed the burglar, and the burglar hit his neck on the edge of a square coffee table.  Broke his neck.

If it had happened in my neighborhood it wouldn't have been an issue.  Everyone was a spook or Secret Service.

Posted by: Ranba Ral at August 31, 2011 10:16 AM (G99e4)

157 I live in Ozaukee county, and there's a lot of buzz on talk radio about passing some kind of castle doctrine law now. What I'm wondering is why do we need a law to tell citizens it's OK to protect their home and families. I have O.F. Mossberg and John M. Browning protecting my home. Though, luckily, I live in the 3rd wealthiest city in Wisconsin, and home intrusions here are few and far between.

Posted by: eunichron at August 31, 2011 10:44 AM (diMOQ)

158

 mmm.. cat shit not so mean. Try 'I'm meaner than the First Lady when someone gets between her and a plate of tamales ribs and french fries'.

Posted by: Jones at August 31, 2011 03:01 PM (8sCoq)

FIFY

Posted by: Insomniac at August 31, 2011 11:08 AM (v+QvA)

159 The Stupid is strong in the California legislature. Posted by: Blacque Jacques Shellacque at August 31, 2011 02:31 PM (1rHeD) Yes, they are stupid, no, it is not true you have a duty to retreat in your own home in California. It's an urban legend. An extremely popular myth, but a myth nonetheless.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at August 31, 2011 11:21 AM (bxiXv)

160 You really make it seem so uderstandable with your presentation but I find this topic before really hard to understand. It seems too complicated and very broad for me.

Posted by: The Ice Limit AudioBook at August 31, 2011 06:18 PM (qhonK)

Hide Comments | Add Comment

Comments are disabled. Post is locked.
174kb generated in CPU 0.15, elapsed 1.1538 seconds.
62 queries taking 1.0516 seconds, 396 records returned.
Powered by Minx 1.1.6c-pink.