April 29, 2009

Michael Sheuer: Bammy's Narcissism and Naivete Are Going to Get People Killed
— Ace

All worth reading. I'll just quote a few choice paragraphs.

Americans should be clear on what Obama has done. In a breathtaking display of self-righteousness and intellectual arrogance, the president told Americans that his personal beliefs are more important than protecting their country, their homes and their families. The interrogation techniques in question, the president asserted, are a sign that Americans have lost their "moral compass," a compliment similar to Attorney General Eric Holder's identifying them as "moral cowards." Mulling Obama's claim, one can wonder what could be more moral for a president than doing all that is needed to defend America and its citizens? Or, asked another way, is it moral for the president of the United States to abandon intelligence tools that have saved the lives and property of Americans and their allies in favor of his own ideological beliefs?

...

Americans and their country's security will be the losers. The Republicans do not have the votes to stop Obama, and the world will not be safer for America because the president abandons interrogations to please his party's left wing and the European pacifists it so admires. Both are incorrigibly anti-American, oppose the use of force in America's defense and -- like Obama -- naively believe that the West's Islamist foes can be sweet-talked into a future alive with the sound of kumbaya.

So if the above worst-case scenario ever comes to pass, Americans will have at least two things from which to take solace, even after the loss of major cities and tens of thousands of countrymen. First, they will know that their president believes that those losses are a small price to pay for stopping interrogations and making foreign peoples like us more. And second, they will see Osama bin Laden's shy smile turn into a calm and beautiful God-is-Great grin.

A point that never gets mentioned: Liberals try to reassure Americans that in a ticking-time-bomb scenario, of course they'd do the rough stuff required.

Um, how? Given that liberals are branding all of this unconstitutional, unamerican, and wholly illegal, how do they carve a special ticking-time-bomb exception? An illegal act does not become legal just because you really need to do it. A theft is not blessed as legal simply because the thief really needed the money.

So what exactly is the legal theory that makes Ticking Timebomb Torture a special legal version of torture? Where are the legal memos to support this? Would anyone compose such a legal memo now, knowing he risks prosecution and jailtime for the crime of writing an opinion?

And if there is some strange theory to support such a "when you really have to break the law" exception, one wonders why it does not apply, say, in the months following September 11, 2001, when Al Qaeda had follow-up attacks planned.


Posted by: Ace at 08:11 AM | Comments (196)
Post contains 495 words, total size 3 kb.

1

Why listen to Sheuer now?

Don’t get me wrong, I agree with the sentiment, but Sheuer doesn’t have the best track record now does he?

 

Posted by: Mike H at April 29, 2009 08:14 AM (t29CQ)

2 Michael Scheuer and Ace would have made great Nazis.

Too bad they missed the opportunity. I'd have loved to see them tried in Nuremburg.

Posted by: honest cloud at April 29, 2009 08:17 AM (hOPQH)

3

But, have you seen my new dog?

I named him after my favourite person - me!

 

Posted by: Girdyourloins! at April 29, 2009 08:19 AM (3PqHz)

4 we did more brutal things to ensure the defeat of the National Socialists in WWII than waterboarding.  Given their evil, it was all worth it.  I will ask the question I always like to ask-what body count would you find acceptable to avoid the harsh interrogation techniques we used?  would you have waterboarded KSM to avoid the deaths of those who died on 9/11 or is your immortal soul simply too precious?

Posted by: ed at April 29, 2009 08:20 AM (Urhve)

5 As a liberal once said: "Man, this reality crap really sucks"

Posted by: Roy at April 29, 2009 08:20 AM (cB77O)

6 I see Scheuer started making the rounds on FOX yesterday.  Any one of the Morons here could go on TV and say the same stuff Scheuer does.  It's just commonsense.  I lost all respect for Scheuer's POV when I learned that he holds an agricultural degree from a Canadian university (no offense to our friends to the north).

Posted by: RushBabe at April 29, 2009 08:20 AM (LKkE8)

7 And Honest Cloud with the Godwin! Let's give him a big round of applause for his critical thinking, err... never mind.

Posted by: Penfold at April 29, 2009 08:20 AM (lF2Kk)

8 FLASH MESSAGE
OPREP: BOGEY "honest cloud"

PLEASE IGNORE CONCERN-TROLL. ASSETS CURRENTLY INBOUND TO DEAL WITH BOGEY. STAY ON-MISSION.

STOUT HEARTS.

MESSAGE ENDS

Posted by: Monty at April 29, 2009 08:21 AM (/0a60)

9 Ace, the simple answer is pretty much the stock answer:

Laws are for Republicans and sheep, not us.

They don't see laws as restricting their actions. This goes on throughout all their crap. Tax evaders? Climate change hypocrites? Starlett bodyguard's guns? Drugs? Whatever it is, the law/principle is broken for their personal benefit, even while holding the line against normal people doing exactly the same thing.

Posted by: Al at April 29, 2009 08:21 AM (CyBUS)

10 A theft is not blessed as legal simply because the thief really needed the money.

And with that statement, you have completely destroyed the philosophical foundations of modern liberal jurisprudence.

Posted by: DelD at April 29, 2009 08:22 AM (DqLUN)

11
Who else would make a great Nazi, dildo cloud?

Barack Obama, that's who.

Posted by: D-ling at April 29, 2009 08:23 AM (ick02)

12 "would you have waterboarded KSM"

No. For two reasons.

One. It is a war crime.

Two. It doesn't work.

Any other stupid questions?

Posted by: honest cloud at April 29, 2009 08:24 AM (hOPQH)

13
honest cloud, you're a chick, right?

I believe I recall you mentioning it before.

Posted by: D-ling at April 29, 2009 08:24 AM (ick02)

14
One. It is a war crime.

Two. It doesn't work.

Three. Because we said so.

Four. Shut up.

Posted by: D-ling at April 29, 2009 08:26 AM (ick02)

15

Godwin on a second comment? That's gotta be an AoS record.

In all seriousness, if we've crossed over into the simple yelling of "Nazi! Nazi! Nazi!" then can I respectfully request busting out the ban hammer?

Having the occasional troll trying to reason can sometimes sharpen arguments, so what's the harm? But not this obnoxiousness.

Posted by: Lee at April 29, 2009 08:28 AM (TxTIh)

16

I am very resentful that the President of the United States has said that I've lost my moral compass.

I find it cold comfort that eventually history will judge Obama harshly. I do not want to have to live through the times that will make it so.

Posted by: ParanoidGirlInSeattle at April 29, 2009 08:28 AM (AJ4xq)

17 So what exactly is the legal theory that makes Ticking Timebomb Torture a special legal version of torture?

You need to refer to the case of  "Spitzer vs. Jack Bauer" (2004, New York).   Torture is only acceptable if the threat of harm is "imminent" (defined as within 24 hours), massive (involving the cities of L.A., New York or D.C) and you are coming up against a commercial break.

Posted by: Kasper Hauser at April 29, 2009 08:28 AM (ZPwZl)

18 Miss Cloud, were you aware that Obama's own intelligence chief said they worked?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30335592/

Posted by: Nice Deb at April 29, 2009 08:29 AM (MHx40)

19 Its no big deal!  Now that the Repubs have decided to throw out their ideal, principles and convictions, our tent is big and we're all democrats now!  Paartay!

Posted by: Kae Gregory at April 29, 2009 08:29 AM (E+9ug)

20 This business will get out of control. It will get out of control and we'll be lucky to live through it.

Posted by: Adm. Josh Painter, USN at April 29, 2009 08:29 AM (QYJUz)

21
The science is settled!

Interrogations don't work. Obama's Spending will create jobs. And Global Warming is real. Oh, and green jobs will magically save our economy.

Any more questions? And by any more questions, I mean I'll simply repeat everything I said before using no facts or science.

Posted by: honest clod at April 29, 2009 08:29 AM (ick02)

22 honest cloud, you're a chick, right?

A chick who really, really needs to get laid I'd reckon.

Posted by: Kasper Hauser at April 29, 2009 08:30 AM (ZPwZl)

23 A war crime? I thought it was a training exercize for U.S. soldiers in Special Forces. As to whether it works, we would have to have the results released, wouldn't we?

Posted by: Eric at April 29, 2009 08:30 AM (MFvqO)

24

Please ignore Honest Clod--I'm sick of it hijacking threads with its stupidity.

"So what exactly is the legal theory that makes Ticking Timebomb Torture a special legal version of torture?" They assume that a figure like Jack Bauer will, unafraid of legal memos, will ride to the rescue. Another fiction they think is reality.

Posted by: Dagny Tagert at April 29, 2009 08:31 AM (suxg7)

25 Interrogations don't work. Seriously, you believe this. Let me guess, no ever described you as intelligent, did they?

Posted by: Penfold at April 29, 2009 08:31 AM (lF2Kk)

26
Anyone have video of Obama making snippy comments about the Tea Party protesters during his staged townhall in MO, today?

Posted by: D-ling at April 29, 2009 08:32 AM (ick02)

27

19 Its no big deal!  Now that the Repubs have decided to throw out their ideal, principles and convictions, our tent is big and we're all democrats now!  Paartay!

Does this mean I can quit my job and go on welfare?  Sweet, I have a bunch of XBox 360 games I haven't had a chance to play yet.

Posted by: yinzer at April 29, 2009 08:32 AM (/Mla1)

28

Two. It doesn't work.

I know, right? I mean, Cheney personally castrated 1600 man-created disaster creators with rusty garden shears and what did we have, like, 90 bazillion attacks just in 2003 alone? What's it going to take for these fools to understand?

Posted by: Effeminate Volcano at April 29, 2009 08:32 AM (ulSJI)

29 My guess is Onanist Clod is actually Allahpundit pulling a funny.

Posted by: Chimney Sweep #8 at April 29, 2009 08:32 AM (kIjlp)

30 And I second Lee's request. This troll has crossed over from being a useful idiot to being a vitriolic asshat.

Posted by: ParanoidGirlInSeattle at April 29, 2009 08:32 AM (AJ4xq)

31 Anyone have video of Obama making snippy comments about the Tea Party protesters during his staged townhall in MO, today?

No, but Nice Deb has a post.

Posted by: Nice Deb at April 29, 2009 08:33 AM (MHx40)

32
If you haven't heard, Obama does not approve of the protests and pretty much called them un-serious.

But he's willing to debate his spending, ah, health care reform with us.

Posted by: D-ling at April 29, 2009 08:33 AM (ick02)

33

2 Michael Scheuer and Ace would have made great Nazis.

Too bad they missed the opportunity. I'd have loved to see them tried in Nuremburg

That makes absoluetly no sense.  And this "Ace" fellow would make a terrible Nazi.  Have you seen his wardrobe?  

Posted by: Fritz at April 29, 2009 08:35 AM (W0B71)

34
No, but Nice Deb has a post.

PIMP!!!

Where's the link, blogpimp?

Posted by: D-ling at April 29, 2009 08:35 AM (ick02)

35

I have said it before, the next time America is hit, and make no bones about it we will be hit, there will be real hell to pay.

 

When an entire US city like Boston, Miami, or Seattle is a smoking fiery crate of nuclear goodness (because that is the next attack) people who have been soft on terrorists will swing from trees.

 

A little toughness will save a lot of lives in the future, and the kids over at the ACLU the lives we save may just well be your own.

Posted by: Mike H at April 29, 2009 08:36 AM (t29CQ)

36 Naaaaaaaaaaaaziiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii. Mein Ubersaurbrauten und unsprechliche Reich auf den folgender Wise Zusande. Ach! Es gibt! Nazis, Nationalsozialismus. Ufta!

Posted by: gaping Asshole at April 29, 2009 08:36 AM (iAUWh)

37 Ace, you ask many provocative questions that get at the heart of the matter. Don't expect straightforward attempts from liberals to provide meaningful answers however (you already knew that). I am comforted with the knowledge of the type of person typically serving our country in war. No matter what the law, these patriotic and selfless Americans will do what is necessary, even risking prosecution and incarceration, to protect us. And by "us" I also mean undeserving self-righteous pricks like honest cloud.

Posted by: Dave at April 29, 2009 08:36 AM (Xm1aB)

38

Anyone have video of Obama making snippy comments about the Tea Party protesters during his staged townhall in MO, today?"

Those were a riot. I heard them on Rush. He really thinks the outrage is personal just like his thinking his personal beliefs should determine how we keep the country safe or whether it is kept safe at all. It must be nice to have around the clock protection, a bunker, secret service, the military, and means of escaping Washington and decide that your moral code (which includes leaving infants to die) will not allow interrogations.

Posted by: Dagny Tagert at April 29, 2009 08:36 AM (suxg7)

39

I do not want to have to live through the times that will make it so.

Who says you'll live, sister?

Posted by: KaBoom at April 29, 2009 08:36 AM (cUYI9)

40 HC comes here because it needs validation for its shitty life. That much I suspect, now.

Posted by: Dr. Manhattan at April 29, 2009 08:38 AM (OkrJ4)

41 The problems are

1) This is a contentious issue and it should be.

2) The Bush Administration provided zero transparency in the matter, and brought this upon themselves by allowing speculation to take the place of fact.

In many people's (and all liberal's) minds (I'm using the word "minds" loosely with the liberals), t3h ev1l Bushitler goons were torturing everyone and anyone they pleased - and through most of the debate we didn't know any better one way or the other. There is a portion of this country that thinks that anything beyond placing them in the comfey chair is torture - better not poke them with the soft cushions! There are people (like me) who would be fine with hooking Khalid Sheikh Mohammed's testicles to a car battery. But with something this extreme lines should be drawn and as a country we should have a national debate on where those lines are. I think that most people would be reasonable about this (for our values of reasonable), but I don't trust any administration - Bush (pick one), Obama, Reagan, Clinton, etc. - to have unmitigated power in this area. They're presidents, not kings or emperors, and they need to obey the law just like anyone else. Even in war, we're still a nation of laws. That doesn't mean we can't have laws that are somewhat brutal when circumstances dictate. But the existence of laws and our ability to abide by them are what separates us from the savages.

Posted by: Hans Blix at April 29, 2009 08:38 AM (erlfI)

42 Obama does not approve of the protests and pretty much called them un-serious.

Bring rifles, pipes, and flags next time.  They still wont have kind things to say, but unserious will not be the tack taken.

Posted by: Jean at April 29, 2009 08:38 AM (L64A6)

43 Some sick humor for these tough times....We had a president who was smart, but sounded dumb. Now, we have a president who sounds smart but is really dumb...Which one would you choose, considering this fact; Albert Einstein often sounded dumb when speaking publicly.

Posted by: sickinmass at April 29, 2009 08:39 AM (/i4dU)

44 I like how we aren't allowed to slap terrorists, yet liberals tacitly approve of us putting bullets through their brains and blowing them up on the field of battle. Yeah, that makes sense.

Posted by: Dr. Manhattan at April 29, 2009 08:39 AM (OkrJ4)

45

Hey! Why does Seattle have to be a smoking fiery crater of nuclear goodness? Can I nominate Las Vegas for it instead?

And, I admit it is wrong of me, but I just want the next attack to happen already, I'm tired of the anxiety of worrying about when and what and where. I mean everyone (and it seems like even the liberals) acknowledges there's going to be another one. Can we just get it over with already?

Posted by: ParanoidGirlInSeattle at April 29, 2009 08:39 AM (AJ4xq)

46 Whoops! Great job, Bammy.

Posted by: 6.1% Contraction of GDP at April 29, 2009 08:40 AM (waaUg)

47 Isn't BHO using the Clinton rendition policy for interrogation of terrorists? I thought I read that somewhere.

Posted by: Penfold at April 29, 2009 08:43 AM (lF2Kk)

48 #41 Without getting into a discussion of what the law is or isn't regarding "torture" let me say ANY law interfering with our nation's ability to protect citizens from terrorists is one that should be routinely disregarded. Civil disobedience. And I don't care for all the blather about our "standards" seperating us from our enemies. Bullshit. Cut their heads off. Cut their relatives' heads off. Fight fire with fire and alot of this terrorist crap STOPS.

Posted by: Dave at April 29, 2009 08:43 AM (Xm1aB)

49 "Ticking Time Bomb" might be justified as an exception in that the prisoner is, in effect, still fighting against you.  We don't allow the beating of prisoners, but if one were to attack his guards then they'd be completely justified in using the necessary force to subdue him.  It's similar to how you can shoot at enemy soldiers but you can't execute a prisoner-of-war without at least some kind of tribunal. 

Essentially, you don't want a situation where the terrorist plants a bomb (or sets a plan into motion) then surrenders, knowing that he can't be touched.  That's using our decency against us.  I'm still not sure we'd be justified in doing it, but I'd be a lot more likely to agree to it.

I guess part of it comes down to this: do we not torture because the criminal has the right not to be tortured or do we refrain because torture is not something we do?  If it's a matter of rights then two possibilities: it's a natural right and shouldn't be violated or it's a statutory right and can be waived by conduct as above.  If it's not something we do, then the same analysis: if it's because we simply don't torture because we believe it to be wrong then there's no room for an exception.  If we don't do it because of some policy reason then we have to decide if a Ticking Time Bomb should allow for an exception to that policy.

Posted by: Wolfwood at April 29, 2009 08:43 AM (6cwXH)

50

“Those of you who are watching certain news channels on which I’m not very popular, and you see folks waving tea bags around, Obama said, “let me just remind them that I am happy to have a serious conversation about how we are going to cut our health care costs down over the long term, how we are going to stabilize Social Security.”

“But,” Obama continued, “let’s not play games and pretend that the reason [for the deficit] is because of the Recovery Act.” - Bammy

Wow, he has some thin skin.  And how unprofessional is it to call out a TV station (everybody knows which one it is, doesn't matter if he specified) like that?  I'm embarassed for all of us.

Posted by: yinzer at April 29, 2009 08:45 AM (/Mla1)

51 2) The Bush Administration provided zero transparency in the matter, and brought this upon themselves by allowing speculation to take the place of fact.

Need to Know, those who did have a need to know on the left are now claiming amnesia (like Pelosi).  If our enemies knew the dreaded fuzzy caterpillar was waiting for them would that have deterred them or would they have trained for it (oh, the horror) like we do.

The problem is the media whores want those juicy, salacious stories and Bush wasn't playing.

Posted by: Jean at April 29, 2009 08:45 AM (L64A6)

52 Fwiw -

On '24' last night Jack Bauer ~~ ripped ~~~ Janeane Garofalo's character when she starting whinging about the FBI and the Bill of Rights while Chloe was recommissioning CTUs servers.

I can't recall the specific words due to its sheer awesomeness. 

It.
Was.
Pitch.
Perfect.

.

Posted by: BumperStickerist at April 29, 2009 08:45 AM (ruzrP)

53 Wolf -

You've just proven the point of the Bush Admin from 02-03

The leaders of Al Queda knew of plots that were ongoing and said to us "Soon you'll know"

And we used waterboarding to make them tell us now so we can stop them.

And we did stop them.

End of Debate.

Posted by: Anti-Harkonnen Freedom Fighter at April 29, 2009 08:45 AM (5r0Tz)

54

Liberals, much like the "intellectual" pussies in Europe, are basically cowards.  They hate strength and self-reliance.  They see everything from the victim mindset because they believe everyone is a victim.

America's popularity skyrocketed around the world after 9/11.  Not because the world was willing to stand with us to go get the bastards responsible but because in their eyes America was brought down, it got what was coming to it.

But as soon as we shook off the shock and went back at the terrorists with a vengance, they went back to their default position of America being a big meanie bully.  Obama is bent on making us a weak pussy and the liberals are loving it.

Posted by: JackStraw at April 29, 2009 08:46 AM (VW9/y)

55 We might have seen alot of tea bags on Fox lately, but one thing we won't be seeing on Fox is Obama.

Posted by: Dave at April 29, 2009 08:46 AM (Xm1aB)

56

Well, I am not interested in prosecuting or persecuting people who did what they thought should be done to defend us after 9-11.  I also don't particularly care what pain gets infilicted upong the likes of KSM, but I do oppose torture for the reason we all should.  No matter how much you trust the hand wielding the tools now, why would you trust all those in the future? Whether waterboarding is torture or not, vastly less stressful means were used to extract confessions and destroy the lives of millions.  Just read the Gulag Archipelago.

Do I want the egomaniac communist Barack Obama to feel that he has torture as a legitimate tool in his bag of tricks?  I sure as hell don't!

 

doug

Posted by: doug at April 29, 2009 08:46 AM (jCwj+)

57 Utopians always pave the road for the mass-murderers in human history. It's always been that way.

Emperors Valens and Honorius allowed Goths to settle the frontiers of the Empire; Alaric repaid Honorius by sacking Rome. Lenin and Marx paved the way for that butcher Stalin. The good German volk were inveigled by the promises of a Third Reich into implementing the most murderous regime in human history. The Cambodians, gentle Buddhists once upon a time, let Pol Pot murder more than a million on his way to the people's republic.

If there is a God, and if Judgement Day ever comes, I expect the bloodiest mass-murderers to defend themselves by saying they were acting for the greater good. Any number of innocents may be sacrificed for the benefit of "the people". Evil people never think themselves evil; after all, they mean well.

Posted by: Monty at April 29, 2009 08:47 AM (/0a60)

58 by "ticking time bomb," they don't mean "Man Made Disaster," they mean "an election.

Posted by: Douglas at April 29, 2009 08:47 AM (uU+Ss)

59 an honest cloud:

sure, it might really be "there," in a manner of speaking, but it's completely insubstantial, and mostly exists to ruin an otherwise good day.

Posted by: apotheosis at April 29, 2009 08:47 AM (xWk3U)

60

Does this mean I can quit my job and go on welfare?  Sweet, I have a bunch of XBox 360 games I haven't had a chance to play yet.

Well, yeah, but you better have a lot and they better be good, because with all the interest we're going to have to pay on the debt (and bailouts), you're never going to be able to buy another game again.  A loaf of bread will be lookin' good soon.  Know how Cuba looks like time stopped in the '50s?  The Squanderer in Chief stopped it for the once mighty United States in '09. 

P.S. Honest Cloud = White Cloud TP

Posted by: RushBabe at April 29, 2009 08:47 AM (LKkE8)

61

Honest Cloud forgets what everyone always forgets when talking about unlawful combatants like KSM: The precious Geneva Conventions that liberals rely on so heavily allow the summary esecution of people like KSM at any time during their captivity.  Roughing them up a little bit to save thousands or millions of lives is no big deal, and certainly doesn't rise to the level of Naziism.  And of course Honest Cloud is a liberal who believes in forced euthanasia of the ill, old people, and abortion on demand up to and including 1 year after birth, so what credability can he/she actually have on the issue?

HC, do you really mean to say that if you had the ability to save 5 million human beings from being incinerated within the next 24 hours, just by roughing up someone who has already murdered thousands, and which international law actually encourages the summary execution of, that the TRUE MORAL CHOICE is to allow those five million people to die, rather than get your hands dirty?  REALLY?  That's your moral choice?  You're insane.

Posted by: Sharkman at April 29, 2009 08:48 AM (69J41)

62 A theft is not blessed as legal simply because the thief really needed the money.

Absolutely not true!

SQUATTER'S RIGHTS!

Take your house back from the evil predatory lenders!

Posted by: ACORN Organizer at April 29, 2009 08:49 AM (aVzyR)

63 If torture is used to protect us, then it is completely moral. If torture is used as punishment, it is unconstitutional. And, the notion that by employing torture we sanction its' immoral and criminal use by others is laughable.

Posted by: Dave at April 29, 2009 08:51 AM (Xm1aB)

64

Can it be Sacramento?  We could be rid of Schwartzenkennedy and the liberals all at one fell swoop.

Seriously, with our health care in the toilet after today's party-line vote in the house, we can't afford to appear weak; after all, it will be gobment run health care that takes care of us after the gobment gets people killed.

Posted by: TimothyJ at April 29, 2009 08:51 AM (IKKIf)

65 HC, do you really mean to say that if you had the ability to save 5 million human beings from being incinerated within the next 24 hours, just by roughing up someone who has already murdered thousands, and which international law actually encourages the summary execution of, that the TRUE MORAL CHOICE is to allow those five million people to die, rather than get your hands dirty?

Posted by: Sharkman at April 29, 2009

Torture doesn't fucking work, you moron. People will lie and say anything just to get it to stop.

Posted by: honest cloud at April 29, 2009 08:52 AM (hOPQH)

66 Besides your obvious questions, Ace, is another, perhaps more fundamental one we - and by "we", I mean the ideologically pure - avoid when addressing this "moral compass". Let's call it the Michael Dukakis Qualifier:

Sheuer states, "First, they will know that their president believes that those losses are a small price to pay for stopping interrogations and making foreign peoples like us more..."

Forget the "liking us more" bit for a moment. Let's get even more fundamental. What of "those losses"? See the problem here? It's "them". Not me. Not my son. Not my spouse or parents. Not even my neighbor or that guy I see every day when I walk my dog. An impersonal "them" whose existence to me means ultimately nothing.

Why even accept in the academic exercise of asking this moral compass question that the sacrifice of some generic American population is a reasonable trade-off for ideological purity, whatever the number? The question should be, "Are you willing to permit the unnecessary killing of your husband so that a) a known terrorist can avoid discomfort and b) the president can crow about something these enemies utterly ignore? How about your daughter? The neighbors in your apartment complex? Your church glee club? Your lifelong friend from school currently living in another state? How large a gathering of people that you know personally are you willing to let die?"

That is the question. None of this test tube morality where hypotheticals never meet reality should be permitted. Man up you hypocritical purists! Which exact population will you let die so that you can pursue your "morality" via the sacrifice of "the other"?

Posted by: AnonymousDrivel at April 29, 2009 08:53 AM (swuwV)

67 Obama says Americans have lost their Moral compass? That's interesting since HE claimed Wright helps keep his priorities straight and HIS moral compass calibrated.  Hardly the go to person for moral compasses, unless of course you hate America.

Posted by: Lyn at April 29, 2009 08:53 AM (a3abx)

68 One. It is a war crime.
Two. It doesn't work.
Any other stupid questions?

I find it funny that the Left always accuses the Right of only thinking in "black and white".  This is complete projection. 

First of all it does work. I don't even know where you are reading that it does not.  The only possible case I can think you are making is that this type of torture would not work to extract a confession of any type, because the result would (obviously) be dubious.  But the point here is to try and get actionable intelligence.  When you get that, and you take action on it, and it leads to results, then that means the methods worked.  It's quite simple to understand actually.

But the most interesting thing is the "It is a war crime."  Period, end of story.  You see, honest cloud, people on the Right are much more capable of thinking in shades of gray and understanding nuance then those of you on the Left.  Would people on the Right support a form of torture where a person was dismembered or fingernails torn out or something gruesome like that?  (You know, the way torture has always previously been defined throughout history.)  No, nothing like that has even been brought up.  On the other side, would the people on the Left decry a solid good-cop-bad-cop-routine or some other method of interrogation that relies on intense psychological pressure?  I honestly don't know the answer to that question. 

The point is that you think very simplistically.  You inability to understand the weighing of moral goods, compounded by the fact that you have not even defined what "torture" is now supposed to mean, makes you an idiot.  A very useful one to the left-wing, but an idiot to be sure.

Posted by: dan-O at April 29, 2009 08:54 AM (teb/C)

69

Evil people never think themselves evil;

Monty, interestingly enough my 7 year old son was using this argument with me recently about the Nazis. He wasn't defending them per se, he was just pointing out that in a war both sides think that they are right and that the Nazis obviously thought what they were doing was for the good and not evil. I blame Indiana Jones for even having to have that discussion with him.

I think the biggest mistake people make is assuming everyone is good. Frankly, history has shown us repeatedly that some people are pure evil. And an inability to recognize this and defeat it early has caused much pain and suffering.

 

Posted by: ParanoidGirlInSeattle at April 29, 2009 08:55 AM (AJ4xq)

70 #66 My exact population would be.......honest cloud.

Posted by: Dave at April 29, 2009 08:55 AM (Xm1aB)

71 Probably time to roll out that insufferable right wing extremist Felix Frankfurter Law Professor as Haaaaavard - Mr. Alan Dershowitz.

Democrats and Waterboarding
The party will lose the presidential race if it defines itself as soft on terror.
11/07/2007: WSJ OpEd
http://is.gd/vq92

Posted by: WTF Capital Investments at April 29, 2009 08:55 AM (GtYrq)

72

Torture doesn't fucking work, you moron. People will lie and say anything just to get it to stop.

And yet it is well know and well reported that intelligence professionals, even Obama's own DNI, claim they got actionable intelligence from KSM and Zubaydah that broke up plots and saved lives.  You are either a complete idiot or completely dishonest.  Maybe both.

Posted by: JackStraw at April 29, 2009 08:55 AM (VW9/y)

73 Dagny, call me, I miss you.  jg

Posted by: John Galt at April 29, 2009 08:56 AM (SDkq3)

74 Leave poor widdle Barry alone. He's in the process of "remaking America".

Posted by: TheQuietMan at April 29, 2009 08:56 AM (1Jaio)

75

Um, can anyone provide a real life example of the "Ticking Time Bomb" scenario?

 

Other than Jack Baur on the tee-vee machine, that is.

 

Given that the waterboarding seems to have occured months after they were captured, that must have been one hell of a long fuse....

Posted by: ChipD at April 29, 2009 08:57 AM (79/pj)

76 It pisses me off Obama was/is in Missouri today. Someone take out the trash.

Posted by: Dave at April 29, 2009 08:57 AM (Xm1aB)

77

Um, can anyone provide a real life example of the "Ticking Time Bomb" scenario?

Um, yea.  The Library Tower plot.

 

The Central Intelligence Agency told CNSNews.com today that it stands by the assertion made in a May 30, 2005 Justice Department memo that the use of “enhanced techniques” of interrogation on al Qaeda leader Khalid Sheik Mohammed (KSM) -- including the use of waterboarding -- caused KSM to reveal information that allowed the U.S. government to thwart a planned attack on Los Angeles

http://tinyurl.com/ccerwq

Posted by: JackStraw at April 29, 2009 09:03 AM (VW9/y)

78 #69

I actually think that's a sign that your kid is quite intelligent, to have figured that out at such an early age.

And I think inherent worldview plays heavily into our arguments.  I've always felt that the Left generally looked at humans as being good, while the Right recognizes that humans are quite easily capable of evil.  One of these sides has an easier time embracing violence when it is necessary, but then again, the same side has a much easier time realizing that violence IS necessary for survival in life.

In a perfect world, people would be naturally good, we could easily win with diplomacy, and government would be a benevolent force not run by individuals hungry for power.  But we don't live in that world, and by the time we attain it, we won't be human any longer.  So, in a cruel and imperfect world, easily dominated by evil, it is best to do what one must do: fight to survive, no matter what.

Posted by: Ack at April 29, 2009 09:03 AM (Pdl+z)

79 HC - torture may not work, but waterboarding sure as hell does!

Posted by: yambles at April 29, 2009 09:04 AM (PLAPA)

80 "When an entire US city like Boston, Miami, or Seattle is a smoking fiery crate of nuclear goodness (because that is the next attack) people who have been soft on terrorists will swing from trees." God help me, God forgive me, but I almost look forward to that. The "swinging from trees" part, not the "smoking fiery crater" part. Unfortunately, the horrible part is probably necessary to get to the good part. It'll take an unimaginable event to make these assholes no longer socially acceptable.

Posted by: tsj017 at April 29, 2009 09:05 AM (TBwnU)

81 I think the biggest mistake people make is assuming everyone is good. Frankly, history has shown us repeatedly that some people are pure evil. And an inability to recognize this and defeat it early has caused much pain and suffering.

I think the bigger problem in Western thought is that we even have to try to "understand" how the enemy things. I guess I'm just shallow -- I don't think it's useful to try to accomodate viewpoints that I find morally and ethically repugnant. Not as an individual, and not as a society.

There is a certain amount of latitude to this, of course. I do not care for trophy-hunting, for example, but I wouldn't try to outlaw it. But I am not inclined to "understand" or "sympathize" with pederasts, or rapists, or Satanists. It is possible to take objectivity too far, and endanger yourself and others as a result. I often tell people that when we speak of "culture" and "society", what we're really talking about is an intellectual commons: that common intellectual ground that individuals inhabit made up of our shared stories, music, language, and so on. For a society to even function, boundaries must exist -- without boundaries, there is no culture, no society. (Think of it this way: if my neighbor and I speak different languages, then there is no real society between us. How can there be if we cannot even communicate?)

The first sign that a polity is beginning to fail is when it loses the ability to distinguish between "good" and "evil". We are well down this road already.

Posted by: Monty at April 29, 2009 09:06 AM (/0a60)

82

Everybody just shut up and repeat the mantra:  Waterboarding does not work.  Waterboarding does not work.  Waterboarding does not work.

See, you don't have to prove anything, all you have to do is keep repeating the mantra. 

One of you morons asked the question, among others, "are you willing to let your daughter die to keep your moral high-brow path?  How about this one instead:  Can we kill you if we get nuked and waterboarding would have stopped it?

Let's see how many people volunteer to really put their principles on the line.

Posted by: TimothyJ at April 29, 2009 09:07 AM (IKKIf)

83 H Cloud

Torture doesn't fucking work, you moron. People will lie and say anything just to get it to stop.


Wrong.  Even when they lie, they reveal some truth. 

Interrogation is a conversation.  The trick is to get them talking, lying is fine, because everything will be verified and the conversation will continue.  As long as they are talking, something will slip and with a little truth comes a reward. Punishment and reward become a cycle, and then they break.  Eventually everyone breaks.  The "torture" part enhances the timeline and makes what they tell you relevant and actionable.

The truth doesn't come from the interrogation, it comes from the analysis of all of the evidence.  The data from the interrogation, including their "lies", is only one piece of the puzzle.

If you don't trust us rabid right wingers, go ask a cop or a psychologist.  I'm sure you know a few.  Unfortunately, the real process doesn't film well so your television hasn't been able to teach you.

Posted by: Jean at April 29, 2009 09:08 AM (L64A6)

84

its important to note the opposite Liberal meme: that the ticking time bomb scenario will never happen and its all just a fiction of the conservative-torture loving mind culled from actions movies and 24. Therefore, it will never be justified, and we will always have the mythical other options. (usually said by people who have never worked in law enforcement or questioned a suspect).

Yes, they say that. That is their argument.

We are doomed.

Posted by: lurker at April 29, 2009 09:13 AM (AqLUZ)

85 Is Michael Scheuer still into anti Isreal conspiracy bullshit?

Posted by: Scipio at April 29, 2009 09:13 AM (01fwJ)

86 HC You are an idiot if you think interrogation never works. But if that's what you have to force yourself to believe so that you don't have to acknowledge you are an immoral monster, so be it.

Posted by: Dr. Manhattan at April 29, 2009 09:14 AM (OkrJ4)

87 so, are you saying that the police officer shouldn't just take the "No" initially offered by the suspect-you are saying he should keep asking questions and compare the answers to the facts that are known to see if there are consistencies and then go back for more questioning.  lies, all lies, it never works.

Posted by: ed at April 29, 2009 09:14 AM (Urhve)

88

H cloud, you talking about torture for confessions. In which case, I would agree.

But we're talking about torture for information. Information which can be verified. Which is when torture works.

Posted by: lurker at April 29, 2009 09:15 AM (AqLUZ)

89 why does it have to be a ticking time bomb-what's wrong with a terrorist bomb 6 months down the road.  are the folks less dead in that scenario.  you don't know if something is ticking or not when you start the questioning.  not that hc cares about those actually killed.

Posted by: ed at April 29, 2009 09:16 AM (Urhve)

90

Hey HC - here's something else for you to think (if that's possible) about;

Liberalism is a luxury that can only exist on the achievements of conservatism.

The host can exist without the parasite but the parasite cannot exist without the host.

Posted by: teej at April 29, 2009 09:17 AM (c459z)

91

Don't worry. Be happy!

/Left wing national defense strategy.

Posted by: maddogg at April 29, 2009 09:19 AM (OlN4e)

92 " People will lie and say anything just to get it to stop."

Except the truth?


I'll certainly admit it probably doesn't ALWAYS work.
But you're damn silly to think it would NEVER work.
In some situations, if it MIGHT work, it should be used.

Posted by: right at April 29, 2009 09:19 AM (EquV1)

93

Honest Cloud,

Do you have a spare Voight-Kampf machine lying around that's not being used right now?  If not, please shut the fuck up.

 

Posted by: EC at April 29, 2009 09:26 AM (mAhn3)

94 Um, can anyone provide a real life example of the "Ticking Time Bomb" scenario?

Terrorist plots aren't quite that simple. It's not like a movie, where the good guys have 2 days to save LA. The 9/11 plot took years to pull off; terrorists have to deal with logistics and funds just like the US Army does. But that doesn't mean that plot didn't fit the mold. If someone had waterboarded a terrorist in May of 2001 and found out the details of the plot, I don't see how that wouldn't fall under the "ticking time bomb" litmus test liberals seem to want to revert to.

I can't believe this is a topic that requires this much debate. Reluctantly using amoral methods to achieve a moral result does not invalidate the moral result. It's living in the real world as opposed to whatever gumdrop-tinged fairy world this criminally unserious bunch of liberal bleeders live in.

Posted by: UGAdawg at April 29, 2009 09:27 AM (IE6OO)

95 The laugh I get from these discussions is how people think waterboarding KSM is a War CrimeTM yet many of those same people have no problem carving-up a baby in it's mother's womb or sucking out it's brains after it's been 90% delivered at almost full term.

You need to be weapons-grade stupid-on-purpose, or a monster, to be able to square that circle.

Posted by: DocJ at April 29, 2009 09:28 AM (g8ibn)

96 86 HC

You are an idiot if you think interrogation never works. But if that's what you have to force yourself to believe so that you don't have to acknowledge you are an immoral monster, so be it. Posted by: Dr. Manhattan at April 29, 2009

And you are unbelievably stupid fuck for not being able to understand the difference between interrogations and waterboarding.

Interrogations work and are legal

Waterboarding is torture and illegal.

Please share with me you dumb fuck wingnuts what you think about us prosecuting the Japanese after WW2 for waterboarding Americans and in at least one case a sentence of 15 years at hard labor.  Please do comment.

Posted by: honest cloud at April 29, 2009 09:29 AM (hOPQH)

97
When this hypothetical attack does come, given the events on the domestic front since September 11, 2001, what is the best course of action we, as individuals, can take to prevent its happening ever again?

Please don't answer.  Just think about it.

Posted by: MikeO at April 29, 2009 09:29 AM (hz67i)

98

Liberals try to reassure Americans that in a ticking-time-bomb scenario, of course they'd do the rough stuff required.

Experience suggests the contrary.

The ticking timebomb scenario is close to what literally happened a few years ago. I forget the details -- I think it was a bomb threat at a college in western Massachusetts that was emailed in. Not knowing if this was an empty threat or if there was really a bomb somewhere, the authorities urgently sought to apprehend the guy. They pinpointed the source of the email to a computer in a nearby library. When they asked the library's staff who used the computer, they (get this) refused to tell them. There were privacy issues, free speech, chilling effect, and a whole bunch of other terms that they didn't know the meanings of but are nonetheless part of ALA doctrine.

Even with the benefit of hindsight, knowing the potential stakes and not being worried about an imminent explosion down the street, ALA and its members defend these staffers' refusal to cooperate with the authorities.

Sometimes I get the sense that certain people would prefer to uphopld their ideals and see people die rather than uphold their ideals and not see people die.

Posted by: FireHorse at April 29, 2009 09:29 AM (w9FHT)

99 The line between satire and reality is blurred with this cloud fellow.

Posted by: Groober Dash Rendar, PhD at April 29, 2009 09:30 AM (Usqb3)

100 Pretty fucking simple, HC.

KSM != Uniformed military fighting under the flag of a country

We eagerly await your next idiotic spouting.


Posted by: DocJ at April 29, 2009 09:31 AM (g8ibn)

101

Honest Cloud:  I notice you don't really have an answer to the assertion that you are certifiably insane if you think that allowing 5 million people to die just to keep your hands perfectly clean is a good moral choice.  You simply assert without any proof that "torture" doesn't work.  Really?  Sorry, I'm pretty sure that "torture" works at least .0001% of the time.  Hell, anything you can think of works at least that percentage of the time, even Obama's stupid economic theory, whatever it might be.  When the percentage of success is that small, but that many lives are on the line, I'll take the chance, and so will my immortal soul, that doing what I can to extract the information to save those lives is the correct moral choice.

 

Posted by: Sharkman at April 29, 2009 09:33 AM (69J41)

102

Please share with me you dumb fuck wingnuts what you think about us prosecuting the Japanese after WW2 for waterboarding Americans and in at least one case a sentence of 15 years at hard labor.  Please do comment.

I had no idea US soldiers were committing acts of terrorism against the Japanese govnerment.

Posted by: EC at April 29, 2009 09:33 AM (mAhn3)

103 honest cloud, you're a chick, right? A chick who really, really needs to get laid I'd reckon. Yes, but who would do the dirty deed? Hey...don't look at me like that. I'm not doing it. I don't care how much money you raise.

Posted by: I R A Darth Aggie at April 29, 2009 09:34 AM (1hM1d)

104

By the way: Duuuuuh!

Geez Louise, for being the "Literary President" he sure missed an obvious concept from a common book. Anyone who has ever read the Cliff's Notes to The Prince by Machiavelli knows that the title character has to get his soul dirty.

That's part of the job, Mr. President. If you don't like it, you don't have to reapply for the position in three years.

Posted by: FireHorse at April 29, 2009 09:34 AM (w9FHT)

105

George W. Bush's Justice Department said subjecting a person to the near drowning of waterboarding was not a crime and didn't even cause pain, but Ronald Reagan's Justice Department thought otherwise, prosecuting a Texas sheriff and three deputies for using the practice to get confessions.

    Federal prosecutors secured a 10-year sentence against the sheriff and four years in prison for the deputies.

That's Reagan's Justice Dept. Ronnie Reagan, the wingnut hero.

Posted by: honest cloud at April 29, 2009 09:34 AM (hOPQH)

106

Ronald Reagan's Justice Department thought otherwise, prosecuting a Texas sheriff and three deputies for using the practice to get confessions.

So what you're saying is it worked?

Posted by: EC at April 29, 2009 09:37 AM (mAhn3)

107 Ace please ban that troll already.

Posted by: Scipio at April 29, 2009 09:37 AM (01fwJ)

108

I can think of a scenario where liberals have said it's OK, in an emergency, to break the law -- during Hurricane Katrina, when various looters were breaking into WalMart for disposable baby diapers.

Baby diapers?  Perfectly acceptable for baby mama to throw a brick through a window for disposable baby diapers.  No need to switch to cloth.  Loot away.  It's just a bunch of rich capitalists, anyway.  Take as much as you need.

Roughing up Khalid Sheikh Mohammed to get vital intelligence on where and when our enemies next plan to kill a few thousand innocent civilians, on the other hand?  DON'T YOU TOUCH A HAIR ON HIS SWEET PRECIOUS HEAD, YOU NAZI!

I think our policy toward our enemies in time of war should be twofold and simple -- treat us well, and we'll treat you better.  Treat us badly and we'll treat you worse.  They routinely torture and execute our soldiers.  I say filet them an inch at a time while throwing more questions at them than a Jeopardy champion does at Alec Trebek.

Posted by: PalinFan at April 29, 2009 09:38 AM (5Ig1V)

109 So, KSM == prisoners under the protection of state law enforcement

Is that your line of - guffaw - reasoning, HC?

Posted by: DocJ at April 29, 2009 09:39 AM (g8ibn)

110

#105

"George W. Bush's Justice Department said subjecting a person to the near drowning of waterboarding was not a crime and didn't even cause pain, but Ronald Reagan's Justice Department thought otherwise, prosecuting a Texas sheriff and three deputies for using the practice to get confessions."

It's stupid fucks like you with idiotic equivications like that that will get us all killed.  You see the difference but want to make some comparison that doesn't exist.

Fuck you.

Posted by: Rudy Ray Moore at April 29, 2009 09:40 AM (o5vMm)

111 Interrogator:  Alright, we've pulled out your fingernails and stomped on your balls, but you are made of tougher stuff.  I didn't want to do this, but you have forced my hand.

(forces KSM to read comments by "honest cloud")

KSM:  AAAAARGH!  MY EYES!!  THE STUPIDITY...IT BURNS!!!   i'LL TALK!!  I'LL TALK!!!!

Posted by: right at April 29, 2009 09:40 AM (EquV1)

112

A refutation of the "we executed the Japanese for waterboarding" liberal meme that they are currently surfing on:

http://tinyurl.com/dyvjsn

Posted by: ParanoidGirlInSeattle at April 29, 2009 09:41 AM (AJ4xq)

113 Please share with me you dumb fuck wingnuts what you think about us prosecuting the Japanese after WW2 for waterboarding Americans and in at least one case a sentence of 15 years at hard labor. Please do comment. Yeah. Got one word for yah Geneva Convention. Legal combatants. Illegal combatants? not so much. They could be treated as spies and saboteurs. Which means a fair military tribunal, and fine hanging. Don't believe me? try this: June 17 [1942] U-584 lands four German spies (“The Florida Four”) at Ponte Vedra, Florida, where they hide explosives; they were soon arrested by the FBI in New York and Chicago and were sentenced to death and executed. That was your godling, FDR, doing the dirty work.

Posted by: I R A Darth Aggie at April 29, 2009 09:41 AM (1hM1d)

114 For shit's sake, Cloud, waterboarding was not the focal point of any of those prosecutions. Yes, it was apparently mentioned by the prosecution. But in the grand scheme of things, like crimes against humanity and genocide, it got a passing mention. Also worth pointing out that the Japanese were much more harsh in their waterboarding technique. No cloth, and I'll bet no medical personnel present. What's next? Ted Bundy got the chair for assault and battery?

Posted by: bunny boy at April 29, 2009 09:41 AM (YsSn7)

115
FWIW:  I vote that the banhammer stay in its sheath.

It is important to have such posts to teach us who our real enemies are.

Posted by: MikeO at April 29, 2009 09:42 AM (hz67i)

116 Please share with me you dumb fuck wingnuts what you think about us prosecuting the Japanese after WW2 for waterboarding Americans and in at least one case a sentence of 15 years at hard labor.  Please do comment.

Pure canard:
Defendant: Asano, Yukio   Docket Date: 53/ May 1 - 28, 1947, Yokohama, Japan  Charge: Violation of the Laws and Customs of War: 1. Did willfully and unlawfully mistreat and torture PWs. 2. Did unlawfully take and convert to his own use Red Cross packages and supplies intended for PWs.  Specifications:beating using hands, fists, club; kicking; water torture; burning using cigarettes; strapping on a stretcher head downward  Verdict: 15 years CHL 

Its like claiming that Ted Bundy was executed for unlawful entry into the girl's dormitory. 

There's no cure for the willfully ignorant.

Posted by: toby928 at April 29, 2009 09:42 AM (PD1tk)

117 Since liberals are never held accountable for anything, having control of the media and therefore the "narrative", they have learned that is a waste of effort to even pretend to be intellectually honest.  It's just not necessary... if you can say anything you want anytime you want to anyone you want, and you never have to worry about it inconveniecing you, well why not?  Lying is only hard if you can get caught.  If there is no chance of getting caught, it is dead easy.

Posted by: sherlock at April 29, 2009 09:43 AM (ZrS0c)

118 bunny boy beat me to the Bundyism.

Posted by: toby928 at April 29, 2009 09:43 AM (PD1tk)

119

After going a few rounds with my community's local, vocal progressives, I have the distinct opinion that they are in lockstep with the idea that a few thousand lives are a small price to pay for "moral fortitude" ("moral fortitude" under their definition of such) -- even friends, collegues, family members could die (I asked them!) and still "moral fortitude" wins out.

 

But I noticed that it was always someone other than themselves that would be doing the dying -- 'cause, you know, they're like to "morally correct" or something to die, and even though every last one of them spits on the idea of a Christian God, that same concept of God gets referred to as why it will only be nasty, vile, right wing extremists who get killed or suffer any grief from any more attacks...not they, the special type, chosen people.

 

Posted by: unknown jane at April 29, 2009 09:48 AM (EpmMs)

120

Hey, I saw Lethal Weapon their water torture ain't nothing like our water torture.

Mark Hemingway, at the post I linked to compared it to saying Charles Manson was sentenced to life in prison for tresspassing.

Posted by: ParanoidGirlInSeattle at April 29, 2009 09:49 AM (AJ4xq)

121 I believe it's not a matter of "if" but "when".  I also believe Obama's policies are speeding the "when" up.

Posted by: Bosk at April 29, 2009 09:55 AM (fazYB)

122 why would that progressive ideal of someone else getting offed shock you-Michael Moore, one of their kings, seemed less bothered by 9/11 than the fact those scamps hit New York, which voted against Bush. 

Posted by: ed at April 29, 2009 09:56 AM (Urhve)

123

OK, so we had a guy in custody that everyone admits was a Al Qaeda leader, mastermind of the worst terrorist attack on US soil ever, and the interrogations went something like this:

CIA:  What else do you scum have planned?  Are any more attacks on the way?

KSM:  Bwahahahahaha!  Soon you infidel scum will know!

 

So, how does this NOT qualify a legitimate "ticking bomb" scenario?

Posted by: Terry at April 29, 2009 09:56 AM (tat/L)

124

Make that last sentence:

 

So, how does this NOT qualify as a legitimate "ticking bomb" scenario?

Posted by: Terry at April 29, 2009 09:58 AM (tat/L)

125 It's all so confusing here in Wingnuttia.

According to the wingnut Bible. Waterboarding worked. And waterboarding was necessary. And waterboarding is legal.

Yet the wingnut hero George Bush stopped using it.

Go figure.

Posted by: honest cloud at April 29, 2009 10:00 AM (hOPQH)

126 Go figure.

Weak.

Posted by: toby928 at April 29, 2009 10:03 AM (PD1tk)

127 further, is it moral to treat terrorists in the same or better manner than one would soldiers who follow the rules of war and try not to target civilians-it would seem immoral to encourage the former conduct while making it tougher on those who do the latter-but I'm not a moral philosopher of the caliber of hc

Posted by: ed at April 29, 2009 10:04 AM (Urhve)

128 honest cloud
Listen you moonbat vomited out of Arianna Huffington's pussy, George Bush had more in common with leftist losers like your self then he did with true conservatives. Now go back to the Puffington Host and  fuck off!

Posted by: Scipio at April 29, 2009 10:05 AM (01fwJ)

129

"When an entire US city like Boston, Miami, or Seattle is a smoking fiery crate of nuclear goodness (because that is the next attack) people who have been soft on terrorists will swing from trees."

The thing that is maddening about this is that we have already been there. For years prior to 9-11 the terrorists were trying, continually probing with limited attacks (and a couple not so limited). Pres. Clinton chose to treat terrorism as a policing matter. Don't even want to revisit that decision.

But dammit, 9-11 was the wake-up call! I remember thinking that as horrible as it was, finally, finally people would wake up, spines would firm up, and we as a country would do what had to be done. I thought so right up until the left started attacking the idea of even going to Afghanistan, let alone Iraq.

9-11 was my wake up call, and that should have been all we EVER needed. I am firmly convinced that it could come to pass that a group of lefties may one day emerge from the fiery crater of the former City of New York bitching about how it was our fault, that Bushitler's policies provoked the attack, and pleading for understanding rather than the use of force. 

Posted by: RM at April 29, 2009 10:07 AM (GkYyh)

130 Fucktards like Honest  Cloud  and Andrew Sullivan have fantasies of being held down and fucked in the ass by strong, virilie Islamic  men.

Posted by: Scipio at April 29, 2009 10:08 AM (01fwJ)

131 Thomas Sowell on the CIA memos:

"Those who choose to live outside those laws, whether terrorists or pirates, can be-- and have been-- shot on sight. Squeamishness is neither law nor morality. And moral exhibitionism is beneath contempt, when it sacrifices the safety of those who live within the law for the sake of self-satisfied preening, whether in editorial offices or in the White House."

Thomas Sowell is a gift of a man.  He has a gift, as well.

Posted by: Derak at April 29, 2009 10:09 AM (QIsMa)

132 honest cloud:  Only you and your statist friends believe waterboarding is torture or that we executed anyone for it in WW2.

Geneva defines torture as physical pain.  Period.

Anyone form a foreign country attacking our citizens or troops out of uniform is a SPY.  He can be EXECUTED immediately.

Not only is this moral, it is just.  (Excepting of course weirdos like yourself who invent new morals as it suits them)

Too bad cretins like yourself bask in the protection of better men doing what you lack the courage to do.

Posted by: DavidM at April 29, 2009 10:09 AM (R/e5b)

133 "“But,” Obama continued, “let’s not play games and pretend that the reason [for the deficit] is because of the Recovery Act.”

Ah, the plastic messiah... showing yet again he is a stupid, stupid man with no economic knowlege. And a would be man whose act is getting increasingly tired and obvious.

Weak attempt at framing the argument with his blather about debating health care costs - wtf is that? Nobody was talking about efficient health care delivery at the tea parties. Gads, what a preening jackass.

Next, he abandons the stupid health care pretext and tries to straw man all the tea party attendees.

Stupid, stupid, failure.

Posted by: buster mcDissenter at April 29, 2009 10:10 AM (PkxIz)

134

RM, apparently everyone hit the snooze alarm again after 9/11.

And you just put images into my head of zombie liberals clawing their way out of the rubble chanting "bushchimphitlerhalliburton."

Posted by: ParanoidGirlInSeattle at April 29, 2009 10:11 AM (AJ4xq)

135

"And you just put images into my head of zombie liberals clawing their way out of the rubble chanting "bushchimphitlerhalliburton."

God, the same old song? Besides they won't claw their way out of the rubble, they'll die waitig for Obama to pull them out.

Posted by: Dagny Tagert at April 29, 2009 10:13 AM (suxg7)

136 Ah, the plastic messiah...

Reminds me of that song "Plastic Jesus" from Cool Hand Luke:

I don't care if it rains of freezes
'Long as I got my Plastic Jesus
Riding on the dashboard of my car.

Through my trials and tribulations
And my travels through the nations
With my Plastic Jesus I'll go far.
Plastic Jesus! Plastic Jesus,
Riding on the dashboard of my car

I'm afraid He'll have to go.
His magnets ruin my radio
And if I have a wreck He'll leave a scar.
Riding down a thoroughfare
With His nose up in the air,
A wreck may be ahead, but He don't mind.

Trouble coming He don't see,
He just keeps His eye on me
And any other thing that lies behind.
Plastic Jesus! Plastic Jesus,
Riding on the dashboard of my car ...

Though the sunshine on His back
Make Him peel, chip and crack,
A little patching keeps Him up to par.
When I'm in a traffic jam
He don't care if I say "damn"
I can let all my curses roll

Plastic Jesus doesn't hear
'Cause he has a plastic ear
The man who invented plastic saved my soul.
Plastic Jesus! Plastic Jesus,
Riding on the dashboard of my car ...

Once His robe was snowy white,
Now it isn't quite so bright -
Stained by the smoke of my cigar.
If I weave around at night,
And policemen think I'm tight,
They never find my bottle - though they ask.

Plastic Jesus shelters me,
For His head comes off, you see
He's hollow, and I use Him for a flask.
Plastic Jesus! Plastic Jesus,

Riding on the dashboard of my car ...
Ride with me and have a dram
Of the blood of the Lamb -
Plastic Jesus is a holy bar.


Posted by: Monty at April 29, 2009 10:16 AM (/0a60)

137 More evidence of Narcissism.

I have written here before that Obama's hypersensitivity to criticism is a hallmark of narcissism.  This is another one.

The narcissistic personality has a need to be worshiped and believes in their own rightness to such an extent that they are quite willing to discount considerable evidence to the contrary.  It makes no difference that this observation comes from Sheuer - it is nonetheless true.

Narcissism is thought to result from overindulgence and overvaluation by caregivers in youth, such as a fawning and doting grandmother.  The excessive admiration is never balanced by realistic feedback.

Sarkozy is another not fooled.

Posted by: Robert at April 29, 2009 10:17 AM (cd6Ip)

138

If Christopher Hitchens can volunteer to waterboarding and then after experiencing it the first time, voluteered to do it again, it ain't torture.  Its not pleasant and it is harsh but it ain't torture.  That's just dumbing down the definition.

Its like giving the first gymnast to perform a ten even though she fell on her butt and did not complete any of her moves.  You've got no room to judge any subsequent performance.

Posted by: polynikes at April 29, 2009 10:18 AM (m2CN7)

139 @129 RM

Precedent.  We now have precedent.

Hitler/Mussolini/Stalin/Mao/Pol Pot showed us what happens when tyrants backed by collectivists grab the rudder.  What we know of the hell their kind brought into this world guides each of us in determining what level of resistance is reasonably proportional in defense of ourselves and our loved ones.

Since 9/11, we know that there is a rather large contingent among us whose dreams of bringing heaven to earth are frustrated by the individualistic foundations of our Republic.  We now know the extent to which they are willing to be the fifth column.  We now know that they will provide material and moral support to foreign enemies to gain advantage over domestic adversaries.

Let the days since 9/11 be your guide when it comes time to establish the boundaries of proportional response to defend against these domestic "adversaries."

Posted by: MikeO at April 29, 2009 10:20 AM (hz67i)

140

Scipio at April 29, 2009 03:05 PM (01fwJ)

You can go fuck yourself with honest cloud.

Posted by: polynikes at April 29, 2009 10:21 AM (m2CN7)

141 unknown jane "-- even friends, collegues, family members could die (I asked them!) and still 'moral fortitude' wins out."

So they lied to your face, too.

It's still an abstract exercise to them where such events cannot possibly happen, so staying true to a perceived and inevitably (in their mind) unrealizable hypothetical carries no consequence. Just imagine the demands for "justice" and the crucifying of authorities when one discovers that, yes indeed, her son was killed, the man-caused disaster-maker did know of the plot, and the government refused to act "immorally". Can you say public witch hunt, lawyering up, and show trials?

Posted by: AnonymousDrivel at April 29, 2009 10:21 AM (swuwV)

142

"George W. Bush's Justice Department said subjecting a person to the near drowning of waterboarding was not a crime and didn't even cause pain, but Ronald Reagan's Justice Department thought otherwise, prosecuting a Texas sheriff and three deputies for using the practice to get confessions."

It's stupid fucks like you with idiotic equivications like that that will get us all killed.  You see the difference but want to make some comparison that doesn't exist.

Fuck you.

Posted by: Rudy Ray Moore at April 29, 2009 02:40 PM (o5vMm)

Yes, you are right.  The difference is obvious but this guy is just trolling at this point. 

Can we PLEASE bring out the banhammer?

Posted by: dan-O at April 29, 2009 10:22 AM (teb/C)

143 Obama's entire presidency is a result of the media's determination to demonize Bush. Obama and co. have to keep it up or they lose the sheeple. The whole controversy about torture and waterboarding are a distraction from Obama socializing a democracy, weakening our defenses, and plunging us into eternal debt. There will be some other revelation meant to make Bush look bad as soon as this one wears off. It's all they've got.

Posted by: Dagny Tagert at April 29, 2009 10:23 AM (suxg7)

144 Sebelius feels that late term fetuses, if unwanted, are evil.  Barack feels that if those evil fetuses survive their first round of torture, they get thrown on the floor in the cold room.  Unwanted babies are ticking time bombs of  girl-punishment.

Posted by: alppuccino at April 29, 2009 10:24 AM (nwXF9)

145 Stand by for post-partum abortion.

Posted by: Dagny Tagert at April 29, 2009 10:27 AM (suxg7)

146

108 PalinFan: some good points. But they will be totally lost on whoever this troll is.

119 unknown jane: I suspect that if it were THEIR family members and the situation were real time rather than hypothetical, they might feel a bit differently. But that's lost on them. I also believe a debate is needed. And I'm coming to believe I could be willing to section off some areas and let these left wing kooks have them. Take Boston, or NYC, or Portland or wherever they want. They would be glad to get rid of us wingnuts anyway, we don't contribute anything but bigotry. They can let the world know they are pacifists and that no matter what an aggressor does, or who they are, if caught they are guaranteed a full bore OJ trial at taxpayer's expense with no death penalty.

 We, on the other hand, will maintain a streamlined, but brutal potential for national defense. One rule, just like PalinFan (and also Chuck Zito, I believe) said, "Treat me well, I'll treat you better. Treat me bad, I'll treat you worse."  No free shots, no takesy backsy. Potential terrorists, I'll leave it to your interpretation as to what worse is, but trust me, you probably do not want to go that deep. I know, lefties, that isn't very nuanced. Sorry, you can tweak your code of criminals' rights until eternity in your corner of the world.

Posted by: RM at April 29, 2009 10:28 AM (GkYyh)

147 It get worse than that. He takes socialist stances on everything. Every argument he has is framed in terms of running down the individual for the good of everyone. Tax the rich. Spread it around. Healthcare for everyone regarless of individual choices. But when it comes to asking some tough questions to three or four guys so that everyone can be safe, he is all the sudden the champion of individual rights. One of these two opposite stances is taken out of political convenience. Which one is it?

Posted by: robtron12 at April 29, 2009 10:29 AM (gue+Q)

148 Mr./Ms./Thing Cloud, aren't you tired of chasing your tail yet? You'll have a good appetite, so be sure to tell Mommy so she can make you some extra food tonight.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy at April 29, 2009 10:35 AM (ZGhSv)

149 Please tell me wingnuts.

Why did your hero Bush end waterboarding?

Posted by: honest cloud at April 29, 2009 10:37 AM (hOPQH)

150 Having no pull here, this is probably futile, but Cloud needs to go. He's obnoxious. He's foul. He does hit and run crap, stinking up multiple threads, disappearing when slapped. He insults posters in nearly every response. He uses ad hominems like a 7th grader. And he commits the worst troll sin: starting out as the curious guy who just wants to see what the other side thinks, only to quickly morph into the turd who hurls "dumbass" or worse at every person who calls him out. I don't see what is gained by keeping him around. He's not a good troll. He's not even amusing. Just a complete tube steak. Just one person's 2 cents.

Posted by: bunny boy at April 29, 2009 10:42 AM (YsSn7)

151

Nah, he doesn't need to go.  He just needs the erg treatment.  Editing all his posts into nonsensical statements...

Oh sorry they already are that.  I mean editing his posts into humorous insults against himself.

Posted by: buzzion at April 29, 2009 10:45 AM (Lrsi6)

152 From the lies she tells I believe Honest Cloud is being tortured RIGHT NOW.

Too bad she doesn't know any truths that would stop the torture.

Posted by: klrtz1 at April 29, 2009 10:48 AM (Q5asM)

153
Ehh.  I keep telling you guys.  Keep it.  Print these threads and bind them.

When the collapse comes, use this useful insight into the moonbat mind to convince the squeamish why it is that what needs to be done needs to be done.

Posted by: MikeO at April 29, 2009 10:50 AM (hz67i)

154 It's an ugly woman who hates men. It therefore wants to bait men to get their attention and abuse. I wish you guys would ignore it so it would go back to waxing its mustache, cleaning its little dark rimmed glasses, and airing its Birkenstocks.

Posted by: Dagny Tagert at April 29, 2009 10:59 AM (suxg7)

155 Here is a plea to Ace in haiku form:

Just an angry troll,
Laden with Daddy issues,
Please ban honest cloud.

Posted by: dan-O at April 29, 2009 11:00 AM (teb/C)

156

AlexD @ #137: IMHO one of the biggest mistakes conservative rhetoric makes is letting liberals mute the distinction between innocents and monsters. 

No kidding. How many people pictured Osama bin Laden's driver as a central Asian version of Morgan Freeman from Driving Miss Daisy? "He was a driver! Just a driver!"

Maybe he's not an evil, remorseless murderer, but neither is he just a drver. He was the personal chauffeur to civilization's greatest enemy. That's an asset you don't let go of because you fail to establish mens rea within 72 hours.

Sheesh.

Posted by: FireHorse at April 29, 2009 11:06 AM (w9FHT)

157

Honest Cloud @150: Please tell me wingnuts. Why did your hero Bush end waterboarding?

Interesting. That's very interesting. Dare I say fascinating! That is truly fascinating. Honest Cloud, you must be one interesting, fascinating person.

Ban? Perish the thought! How could a blog be deprived of such interesting, fascinating insights?

Interesting, throught-provoking, fascinating.

Posted by: FireHorse at April 29, 2009 11:21 AM (w9FHT)

158 We need timmy in the well for an indepth intervention on McCloud.

Posted by: toby928 at April 29, 2009 11:57 AM (PD1tk)

159

Ace,

I think is okay to lose Honest Cloud not.  The Nazi name calling is over the top.  Dump his ass.

Posted by: Dan at April 29, 2009 11:58 AM (ygjiI)

160 The other day on The Ed Morrissey show, Tommy Christopher (a liberal blogger/reporter) said that 'torture'/'ehanced interrogation' should be illegal and we should publicly take this moral stand but that behind the scenes the CIA etc should do what they need to in order to get the job done but that this shouldn't become common knowledge.  I don't believe he was being sarcastic or ironic.  I think a number of liberals are trying to square the circle of having an 'open' society and 'transparent' government and being 'teh most moral country evah!!!!' while actually doing what needs to be done in order to survive.

Posted by: Bald Ninja at April 29, 2009 12:08 PM (4pdbX)

161 Opps. Possibly her ass. 

Posted by: Dan at April 29, 2009 12:16 PM (ygjiI)

162 Its so sad to see a frontal lobotomy gone bad as it has with Lying Cloud.

Posted by: Vladmir Putin at April 29, 2009 12:38 PM (0Qynq)

163

@57: "The good German volk were inveigled by the promises of a Third Reich into implementing the most murderous regime in human history."

Please.  The Nazis were pikers compared to both the Soviets and the Chi-coms.  While the Nazis started up assembly line death, the interahamwe in Rwanda were far more efficient killers using little more than machetes and transistor radios.  Pretty much no one has killed as fast as they did - close to 1 million in just over 90 days.  The Nazi killings just got a lot more press.

Posted by: Fa Cube Itches at April 29, 2009 12:41 PM (y4UcI)

164

Can we not adopt the Leftist practise of partial birth abortion to deal with jihaddies.  As we all know this is what the Left considers to be humane.  They fought for it and consider it appropriate for babies.  So why not use it against terrorists?

 

Its legal,  the Left fights for it everywhere.

 

So insert the sharp instrument into the brain and suck out the brains slowly.  If its good enough for babies how can the Left object to its use on terrorists.

 

Unless of course you have the mentality, morality, and ethics of a Leftwingnut like our Presidente Chimpy Zero.

Posted by: Vladmir Putin at April 29, 2009 12:43 PM (0Qynq)

165

Here from my secret double wide headquarters I lecture you mere mortals about the evils of those who oppose those who follow the comet and our fearless leader.  All you inbreds who unlike me did not have the stamina to survive my 14 year old momma's abortion.  It did have its after affects but as you can all witness having half a brain still leaves my IQ far superior to you bible thumpin bigots.  Why torture is evil, especially if America uses it because........damn my teleprompter is broke......must check the fax for DNC talking points......damn....wait....its Soros and the Kos Kiddies speaking in my mind, yes, I hear and obey.

Only the truly enlightened by artifical means and copious doses of drugs can understand how superior I am and above the laws of man and God.   I am Uber troll.  My fifth grade education is supplemented by years of intense psychiatric care and education allowing me to speak about a broad range of subjects based on years of restraint and forced viewing of Road Runner cartoons while under sedation.  I must go now because its time for my parole officer visit.  One day the world will understand that hanging about men's restroom's is not a crime nor is solicitation of minors a crime.  

This of course is just torture.   It is evil the way the world fails to recognize my genius.   Sorry for all that, now, "Did you want fires with your order?"

 

 

 

 

Posted by: Honest Cloud at April 29, 2009 12:53 PM (0Qynq)

166

Info is coming out all over the place about the piracy adventure.The paper mill in chief had to sign 2 authorizations(he fucked up the first)for the commander of the Bainbridge to  use lethal force to snipe the pirates.His ACLU legal types put forth the toilet paper to be signed-a worthless exercise, except for the photo op and press praise from the adoring media.Of course the FBI was sent out in case they were needed to extend this crisis.Some Seals are on the internet-Mark Levin has been all over this.A crisis is a terrible thing to waste.And you Americans have to pay for the rights of the captured pirate.Long live endless litigation.

By the way,can u guys send the Cheneys to Canada for good.I use Halliburton cement crews for oil well completions,all the time.

George W.honored us with his first post presidential speech and dinner.He loves us oil guys.

 

Posted by: chicocano at April 29, 2009 12:55 PM (P2bg4)

167

 

150 clod

Because he ran out of water and towels, dumbass.

Posted by: Ronster at April 29, 2009 01:02 PM (5xynA)

168

@65: "Torture doesn't fucking work, you moron. People will lie and say anything just to get it to stop."

If it believes this, it truly has no understanding of what torture is or how it is used.  If used as demonstrated in tv shows, movies, bad fiction, and Amnesty International bullshit, then no, it is not necessarily effective.  However, the way torture is presented in those media is more torture-as-punishment, not torture as a means of intelligence gathering.

Torture, applied properly, is very effective.  The best the victim can hope to do is not spill everything they know.  Pretty much every organization out there that trains its personnel to resist torture tell them up front: "If you are tortured, you will eventually break.  Hold out as long as you can, and only give up as little as you have to."

Posted by: Fa Cube Itches at April 29, 2009 01:25 PM (y4UcI)

169

Torture never works, hell the Gestapo proved it.  Like man who ever gave information out to them torturing Nazis?   Nobody.  NOT DEFENDING YOURSELF IS AMERICAN I MEAN YOU GOTTA JUST GIVE THE JIHADDIES WHAT THEY WANT SO THEY'LL UNDERSTAND US AND FORGIVE US OUR SINS.

Torture never works, its just all those saddists love it.  You gotta have a monster brain like mine to understand that.  And I have the proof from my magic crystal mood ring and unicorn powder to proof it.  Just let me into my platform shoes and get my grove on.

 

See you peasants gotta get back to work.  "You want a shake with that."

Posted by: Honest Cloud at April 29, 2009 02:43 PM (0Qynq)

170 I haven't posted here in years (despite reading when I can), but I had to break my vow of silence and ask Ace, or whoever holds the keys, to ditch this "Honest Cloud" person. Comment sections are messy enough without having to skip over allegations of Naziism and redneckitude *on every goddamned story.* And, Mr./Mrs. Cloud, since I imagine you'll pounce on this with your usual - ahem - grace, I'll go ahead and let you know that I am from Indiana (redneck, if you will - and I think you will), and I'm on my third tour in Iraq (so that makes me a Nazi, I'm sure). There. Can we move on now?

Posted by: File Closer at April 29, 2009 02:43 PM (zeY9q)

171 A bit off topic, but oh well.   First, if Obama releases the photos of interrogation subjects,  does that rise to the level of giving aid and comfort to the enemy?  At what point does it become treason (if not now, but perhaps later when for sure when the Repubs are back in control of government).  At what point does this result in criminal charges?    Supposedly he has sworn to protect this country.  How does this protect our volunteer military and agents worldwide?  If there is some sort of blow back from release of classified photos, can Obama and/or his administration be sued class action for damages?   If  "water-boarding" is now off the table (even tho the Dems were updated via briefings back then) what exactly is acceptable for interrogation of terrorists currently (cold coffee without cream or sugar perhaps?)  Oh, yes, I did say terrorists.  And a GIANT fuck you to all you pussies that don't approve.  Man Made disasters.  Please.  Go FUCK YOURSELVES with razor tipped dildoes you worthless America hating mother fuckers.  And since political correctness is the order of the day,  I mean everything I said In A Nice Way  ///s

Posted by: sirsurfalot at April 29, 2009 02:50 PM (Czvjx)

172 154

I'm with you. I see "post-collapse" behavior as having two goals: rid ourselves of the noise within and show the Muslims that we mean business by being willing to punish our own for their treason.

Posted by: Joey Joe Joe at April 29, 2009 03:06 PM (Bb/6J)

173 Fa Cube Itches brought up Amnesty International.  Which reminded me of a something I read a long time ago.  A.I.  had in their archives over 1 million pages of documents reporting information regarding torture by the Saddam, Uday and Qusay <<< sounds like stupid fucked up Pig Latin, no?  Anyways, a few years back I had the misfortune of working on a million page presentation as well.  Do you have any idea how much this is?  How many people it takes to handle this volume?  How much space?  All I know is, it took my roughly 10 high speed laser copiers running all day and night for a week to just print from file and process.  What I am saying is, where in the fuck is the concern for all the thousands of innocent people of Iraq who, for whatever reason, wound up on Saddams radar?  Ha ha ha, so the United States waterboarded exactly (3) terrorists?  Ya, right, how about dumping live people into woodchippers?

Posted by: sirsurfalot at April 29, 2009 03:08 PM (Czvjx)

174 Honest Cloud, Doncha figure the Nazis are the same now as they were before? That is, obsessed with racial purity (Caliphate) and eliminating the Jews and / or everyone who supports them (that would be America)? You suck.

Posted by: Tattoo De Plane at April 29, 2009 03:15 PM (FzR5s)

175

I ablsolutely don't understand it....

If my child was kidknapped and I got a hold of some assclown that knew her whereabouts I would absolutely physically destroy the bastard to get the information...how is this debate any different.  It truly boggles the mind.

Posted by: Karl Rove at April 29, 2009 03:47 PM (/SSD7)

176

The Left hates torture so that it couldn't bear to act when Saddam was feeding people into shredders.  It hated torture so that it never protested the torture and execution of American servicemen.

 

It seems that the Left reserves its hatred for America.  I wonder why that is?

 

I wonder why dissent was held up before as the highest form of patriotism against Bush is now a form of dementia against Presidente 666?

 

When you dwell in Leftwingnutlandia logic, reason, and coherent thinking is just another optional extra not to be confused with Dear Leader worship.

Obama is just a really, really bad joke.  I wonder when he will say he's sorry to the pig community for the term swine flu.

Posted by: Thomas Jackson at April 29, 2009 03:49 PM (0Qynq)

177 Daddy already told me, "Sasha, Mommy and Daddy love you, but if you ever get kidnapped by terrorists and we capture one that knows your whereabout... you are one fucked little ho!" What's a ho?

Posted by: Sasha Obama at April 29, 2009 03:50 PM (iafWn)

178 Is this fucker seriously arguing that torture is the only thing standing between America and "another" "terrorist" attack?  And...you buy this?  Fuck you, I'm trolling the Christ out of this blog, I will not hesitate to bring the full weight of my narrative to bear on the situation.  Govern yourselves accordingly.

I just did a background check on Sheuer.   "Former" CIA guy.  Oh, I see he is a graduate of the 44th best (out of 47) university in Canada, Carleton.  Impressive. 

"even after the loss of major cities and tens of thousands of countrymen."

*sigh*


Posted by: Adriana Lima at April 29, 2009 04:05 PM (y+fiP)

179 Thank you for your contributions to our blog, Adriana. Now, please make sure to flush only once (for the children), and please hit the fan on your way out... I don't care what anybody says, gal's stink WAY more than guys.

Posted by: CoolCzech at April 29, 2009 04:10 PM (iafWn)

180 I will not hesitate to bring the full weight of my narrative to bear on the situation. Oooooh... Is that as hefty as your skanky ho ass??

Posted by: CoolCzech at April 29, 2009 04:11 PM (iafWn)

181 179

I don't think he said "only thing" anywhere in his argument. It's one of many tools used to try to prevent another attack.

But, please, share the fullweightmass of the mindthoughts of your narrativestory.

Posted by: Joey Joe Joe at April 29, 2009 04:46 PM (JbhXh)

182 Scheuer is not exactly a fountain of wisdom, though I am guessing Dems who nodded vigorously when he critiqued Bush will now vehemently say he's an idiot for criticizing Obama. BTW, WW II was not exactly a war fought by knights on white horses. During that White Phosphorous brouhaha, I googled some WW II accounts of our troops use of WP. We used it on bunkers to burn the enemy out (that's a war crime.). We used it on German tanks to blind the drivers (that's a war crime.) This stuff is all documented by the troops who did it. So, let's start the war crimes tribunals in chronological order starting with Wilson for interning political enemies and then on to FDR for interning the Japanese, use of chemical weapons, etc. There should not be a statute of limitations on this stuff.

Posted by: Harun at April 29, 2009 04:54 PM (AmVzI)

183

Harun:

 

Where do you get using WP is a war crime?

 

War crimes are a joke.  They are victor's judgement.  When they tried Donetez he had Nimitz and the head of the US sub Fleet testify the US waged unrestricted submarine warfare.   The allies tried Goering for the bombing of Rotterdam and Belgrade yet the US and British did the same thing to Hiroshima and Dresden, and killed many, many more people.

 

War is war and you do what you have to do to win.  The alternative is defeat and like the Carthagians or the people of Troy elimination.

Posted by: Thomas Jackson at April 29, 2009 07:23 PM (0Qynq)

184 Hans Blix #41:

I think that most people would be reasonable about this (for our values of reasonable), but I don't trust any administration - Bush (pick one), Obama, Reagan, Clinton, etc. - to have unmitigated power in this area. They're presidents, not kings or emperors, and they need to obey the law just like anyone else. Even in war, we're still a nation of laws. That doesn't mean we can't have laws that are somewhat brutal when circumstances dictate. But the existence of laws and our ability to abide by them are what separates us from the savages.I vaguely recall that the Republic ended on a bad note, in an attempt to stop the depredations of a leader who had assumed dictatorial powers unto himself. It is possible to open the one-way flood gates of evil without there being any way to reverse the damage short of a divine sacrifice where Brutus is mirrored by Judas, and with a couple of millennia to mop up the mess. But on the up side, perhaps this is all a ruse to cover the fact that we've discovered the secret of the Vulcan Mind Meld, and we no longer need "enhanced interrogation" to ferret out the designs of catastrophic evil. Either way, all I can do is trim the tab.

Posted by: Demosophist at April 29, 2009 09:47 PM (4FJoo)

185 Hans Blix #41:

Sorry, but the editing features threw me for a loop and I guess I need to abandon hope that the blockquote trick will work in Minx.  So let me just replace the blockquote with italics, and I'll start again.

I think that most people would be reasonable about this (for our values of reasonable), but I don't trust any administration - Bush (pick one), Obama, Reagan, Clinton, etc. - to have unmitigated power in this area. They're presidents, not kings or emperors, and they need to obey the law just like anyone else. Even in war, we're still a nation of laws. That doesn't mean we can't have laws that are somewhat brutal when circumstances dictate. But the existence of laws and our ability to abide by them are what separates us from the savages.

I vaguely recall that the Republic ended on a bad note, in an attempt to stop the depredations of a leader who had assumed dictatorial powers unto himself.  It is possible to open the one-way flood gates of evil without there being any way to reverse the damage short of a divine sacrifice where Brutus is mirrored by Judas, and with a couple of millennia to mop up the mess.  But on the up side, perhaps this is all a ruse (misdirection) to cover the fact that we've discovered the secret of the Vulcan Mind Meld, and we no longer need "enhanced interrogation" to ferret out the designs of catastrophic evil.  Either way, all I can do is trim the tab.

Posted by: Demosophist at April 29, 2009 09:52 PM (4FJoo)

186

After hearing this man's thuggery during his first 100 days, watching him play games with the deployment of our military, de-fund our military, and now, effectively castrate our intelligence community, I doubt very much he is "too moral" for waterboarding our enemies, I believe he is giving the store a way on purpose. 

He is not a high-minded, moral individual, he is a thug doing a thug's job, which I  believe is to destroy (not re-make) the USA.

Posted by: Judith at April 30, 2009 02:25 AM (D1n2x)

187 141


You can go fuck yourself with honest cloud.

Posted by: polynikes at April 29, 2009 03:21 PM (m2CN7)


I think I will skip. I don't want or need your HIV sloppy secoonds.

Posted by: Scipio at April 30, 2009 05:40 AM (01fwJ)

188

I think I will skip. I don't want or need your HIV sloppy secoonds.

Posted by: Scumio at April 30, 2009 10:40 AM (01fwJ)

Homophobe!

Posted by: Edward Van Cullen at April 30, 2009 05:57 AM (f7A+e)

189 I actually disagree about the left not being up to serious interrogations, Ace. Look at the left's heroes. Che. Stalin. Mao. Arafat. They can go absolutely apeshit with the slappy/cutty/pointy when it suits them. Not that that makes me feel any better in the slightest.

Posted by: blah at April 30, 2009 07:23 AM (qZgB+)

190 #80, I'm pretty much ate up with sufficient hate for the Lefties that if we had to lose a Blue city or two to convince America we really are at war, and the other side has been at war with Western Civilization since long before we were a country, that I'd consider it an acceptable sacrifice.

Posted by: SGT Dan at April 30, 2009 07:28 AM (/KqGF)

191

Is this fucker seriously arguing that torture is the only thing standing between America and "another" "terrorist" attack?

Wow, honest clod is a worthless meatsack, but this dumb bint is apparently an Islamist-felating Truther.

And, yes, "torture" may very well be the only thing preventing the next terrorist attack on the United States.  You deranged freaks are so deep in your entrenched anti-Americanism that you don't realize that you're all alone on an island pretending that anyone but you gives a shit about what happens to KSM or any of his fellow subhuman barbarians.

If there is such a thing as cosmic justice, you and your kind will be the only ones incinerated by the next terrorist attack CIA/Mossad false-flag operation.

Posted by: VJay at April 30, 2009 07:29 AM (gQ+XA)

192

Adrianna:

 

My God the image of the full weight of a trannie is just so gross.  Imagine if you will Barney Frank in high heels and lace panties with all the wit and humor of Chuckie Schumer, the intelligence of Presidente 666, the education of someone like yourself!

 

The horror, the horror, the horrror.............

 

You realize of course the only thing standing between the US and another terror attack is this image.  The knowledge that we can flash it into the world of Islam terrifies them almost as much as the dreaded ladybug torture.  Bet you didn;'t know about that one because that's what the really really sadist use HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH.

Posted by: Honest Cloud at April 30, 2009 06:42 PM (0Qynq)

193

Tell us Adrianna where did you graduate from.  Any bets it isn't in the top 200 colleges in Vermont?

 

Don't worry DeVry has a technical position for you cleaning toilets in gay bath houses.    You ought to love that.  

Posted by: Honest Cloud at May 01, 2009 06:20 AM (0Qynq)

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