November 30, 2008

It's Over In Mumbai....For Now [Vinnie]
— Open Blog

Or anywhere else that isn't Muslim enough. Which, well, is pretty much anywhere.

All clear at the Taj Mahal hotel.

MUMBAI, India – Authorities finished removing bodies from the bullet- and grenade-scarred Taj Mahal hotel Monday, the final site of the Mumbai siege to be cleared, as schools and businesses reopened and commuters returned to work.

Security forces had been scouring the 565-room hotel for booby traps and bodies, and declared the landmark building cleared two days after they killed the last three militants holed up inside following a three-day rampage in India's financial center that left at least 172 dead.

"We were apprehensive about more bodies being found. But this is not likely — all rooms in the Taj have been opened and checked," said Maharashtra state government spokesman Bhushan Gagrani.

The army had already cleared other sites, including the five-star Oberoi hotel and the Mumbai headquarters of an ultra-Orthodox Jewish group.

On Monday morning, parents dropped their children off at school and many shopkeepers opened their doors for the first time since the attacks began.

Mumbai returns to normal, and the AP returns to normal. Notice how the place for Jews to congregate in Mumbai has suddenly morphed into an "ultra-Orthodox Jewish group."

Never mind that five members of that "ultra-Orthodox Jewish group" were tortured in a horrific manner, and a 2 year old "ultra-Orthodox Jew" is suddenly parent-less.

You stay classy, AP.

See you next Open Blog, peeps.

Posted by: Open Blog at 08:54 PM | Comments (126)
Post contains 251 words, total size 2 kb.

1 If CAIR got shot up I doubt they'd find a way to refer to to it as an "ultra-orthodox Muslim organization" or something. WTF is the point of throwing that in there?

Posted by: Rasputin at November 30, 2008 08:58 PM (tunH+)

2 It's "Orthodox" and "Conservative" - they're "code", ya' know.

Posted by: Guy in Utah at November 30, 2008 09:06 PM (V3WTz)

3 Yeah, it's like how any Christian group that believes in, you know, Christian doctrine is "fundamentalist".

Posted by: Dead Career Sketch at November 30, 2008 09:08 PM (5MeOO)

4 Not that I'm defending AP or anything, but I thought it was precisely a Jewish community center that the terrorists targeted.

Posted by: chemjeff at November 30, 2008 09:18 PM (VLxln)

5

When asked if the commandos attempted to capture them alive at that stage, he replied: "Unko bachana kaun chahega (Who will want to save them)?"

That should be our motto.

Posted by: chemjeff at November 30, 2008 09:19 PM (VLxln)

6

In all fairness, it was the Chabad Lubavitch center.  They're Hassids, making them pretty much definitionally ultraorthodox.  They also have some odd beliefs -- some even seem to believe that their late Rebbe was the messiah.

 

Posted by: NYCcon at November 30, 2008 09:22 PM (+ZY6Q)

7 During the attacks, they were saying that the Chabad Lubavitch center was a place for Jews to congregate in Mumbai.

Now that they're all dead, I guess they feel safe to say that it's okay, they were Ultra Orthodox Jews.

Get my point?

Posted by: Vinnie at November 30, 2008 09:41 PM (idf83)

8 Not just that, Vinnie--remember when it was just a "Jewish Community Center"? (Like Jewish community centers anywhere else in the world.)

Now it has to have some modifier like "ultra-Orthodox" in order implicitly to justify attacking it. Typical AP.

 

Posted by: fireweed at November 30, 2008 09:47 PM (O6vGM)

9

Fine.  The AP was precise in its description of the Chabad Center:  It formerly was the headquarters of ultraorthodox Jews in Bombay. 

But if Ms. Barchfield wanted to be accurate, and not just precise, she would described the Chabad Center as the following:

1)  The place where ultraorthodox Jews gathered in Bombay gathered until they were all slaughtered.  Now they congregate there not so much;

2) The place where parents of a two-year-old lived until they were tortured and murdered;

3) The place where a two-year-old most likely would have been tortured and murdered if an employee of the Chabad House would not have escaped with the child.

That would be a fair description.

Posted by: Punktillious at November 30, 2008 09:54 PM (xC3/e)

10

Any word yet on whether the Taj Hotel is changing any of their guest procedures? Used to be, whenever I'd stay there, I'd order the "turn-down" service and get both a chocolate + an AK-47 with fully-loaded clips on my pillow.

The minibar was always well stocked, but damn were those grenades pricey. Well worth it though when you had to defend yourself. The whiskey though? I dunno'...seemed a little watered down. A bit tough to light when making molotovs to fend off the terrorists. I'd give it 3 1/2 stars.

 

Posted by: genghis at November 30, 2008 09:55 PM (1XErj)

11 I'm bored... do something to entertain me!

Posted by: Kaptain Amerika at November 30, 2008 10:37 PM (xF4Ae)

12 No kidding, Kaptain. I have to wait for the laundry to finish drying before I can turn in.

Posted by: Shannon at November 30, 2008 10:43 PM (q0Z3p)

13 Capital-O Orthodox is the proper English name for what kind of Jews Lubavitchers are. Calling them "ultra-Orthodox" is like calling Jesuits "ultra-Catholic" or Ismailis "ultra-Shiite." They may be ultra-orthodox, but no one is "ultra-Orthodox." The AP is always wrong.

Posted by: The Hated Jew at November 30, 2008 10:52 PM (kyEHq)

14 I long for election times, when AOSHQ was hoppin all night long...

Posted by: Kaptain Amerika at November 30, 2008 11:41 PM (xF4Ae)

15 Kinda interesting to compare the two ultra-orthodox groups here, how their beliefs manifest themselves. The ultra-orthodox Jews gather to pray and then go on about their lives. The ultra-orthodox Muslims gather to pray and then kill people.
Yet the Muslims are somehow the victims.

Posted by: WTF at December 01, 2008 12:20 AM (BOWCG)

16

Hey hey hey now, these weren't ultra-orthodox Muslims.

They were ultra-orthodox terrorist douchebags.

Posted by: flashoverride at December 01, 2008 12:43 AM (E/X9t)

17 The term ultra is the point of contention for me. It's like there are no conservatives anymore only the right wing. Is there a left wing? Is there a ultra liberal group? Oh I know a few like the ACLU and NARAL but I have never heard them described as such. The lone surviving terrorist : "During his interrogation, Ajmal Kamal said they were specifically asked to target the foreigners, especially the Israelis," Would not have mattered if they were secular Jews. The second point is this tendency in the media to imply that it was the victims fault for being in enemy territory so to speak. Like it was the Christians fault for being in San Francisco after prop 8. Almost like they are applying territorial law to ideologies. But when gays protested in the middle of a church service it was all tsk tsk. If the congregants would have physically opposed the gays how do you think the media would have played it? Sine Qua Non. I wonder if we have reached it yet with this lurch toward oblivion.

Posted by: locus ceruleus at December 01, 2008 12:47 AM (e2mBS)

18 http://tinylink.com/?DltfdJFxTR He says it better than I ever could. It's worth the read.

Posted by: locus ceruleus at December 01, 2008 12:53 AM (e2mBS)

19 3

Posted by: flashoverride at December 01, 2008 12:58 AM (E/X9t)

20

Listen, I'm gonna say something unpopular here.  I'm a muslim.  I converted post 9-11.  True, there was a woman involved, but the choice was mine.

Muslims are not evil.  Islam is not inherently evil.  Listening to a lot of these non-muslim Scholars opine on Islam would be roughly as efficent as listening to Salafi jackasses concerning hinduism - meaning that people often read into texts what their pre-conceived notions lead them to believe.

I condenm the attacks.  They are unthinkable, disgusting, and reprehensible.  I only wish the participants (agressors) had not died, so as to deny them their ultimate wish.  Better to parade them across a million television screens as the true examples of hyprocitically disgusting pieces of offfal they are.  Perhaps they could be disappeared aftwerwards, which can be arranged in India.

That being said, I've had quite enough of self professed "Islam scholars" in here tell me that my wife, her entire family, myself, and my children are hell bent on satanistic jihadistic slaught of anyone who does not agree with us.  Because that is, in a word, horseshit.

I pray for a world where people are more... well, American.  That one's beliefs are one's own, and we are judged according to our actions.  These fucksucks proved they were less than human, and they unfortunately took with them hundreds of innocents.  And they were dispatched as such.  But don't conflate their actions with me, my wife, or our two children, aged 3 and 1.

Posted by: flashoverride at December 01, 2008 01:47 AM (E/X9t)

21 I agree with flashoverride.  I teach Islam/Koran and the terrorist-jihad approach is not "all there is" to a Muslim lifestyle.  The distinction must be made without sacrificing accuracy:  there is a part of Islam that does celebrate what happened in Mumbai and a part that abhors it.  We must know the difference and support the former or we can expect a longer and bloodier battle than we now face.

Posted by: Popcorn at December 01, 2008 01:57 AM (Tha0W)

22 flashoverride and Popcorn great. Now go and tell your flock about your distaste for their hate. I don't think you will ever find a post by me that crosses the line in regards to believing some in Islam are sincere in their desire for peace. But it is a bridge too far to tell me not to make the connection between Islam and violence around the world at this time. It is NOT my job to support the parts of your community that are not attacking western civilization. It is yours. I will continue to doubt the sincerity of your religion of peace as long as your leaders remain silent about supposed Jihad. It seems to me that Muslims are using the carrot and the stick approach to effecting change in the way they desire it. To get me, and others like me, to see it differently I need a civil war in your midst. I don't believe it will happen. It is easier to confront me than them.

Posted by: locus ceruleus at December 01, 2008 02:15 AM (e2mBS)

23 Popcorn, "Islam" (the region of Muslim ruled countries comprising the Middle East and Northern Africa) is doing nothing to prevent and to stop terrorist-jihad around the world. Rather, "Islam" the region is promulgating terrorism performed as jihad by Muslims. The radical element is intrinsic to "Islam". Crying foul for recognizing that reality hardly makes "a longer and bloodier battle than we now face."

Per thread topic, God bless India to thwart evil in her midst.

The world just gets nastier the more that evil terror is tolerated.

Posted by: maverick muse at December 01, 2008 02:23 AM (F1b/5)

24 I agree w/ flash & pop. We shouldn't paint all Muslims w/ the "terrorist brush". It's just like when the media tries to portray all conservatives as a bunch of toothless, gun-totin', cousin humpin, bible-thumpin, darkie-hatin bumpkins. In the end, it makes it harder to fight the terrorism. However, I also agree w/ locus. I don't see much substantial reaction by the larger Muslim community against terrorism. Maybe, I'm not paying attention. But I just don't see it.

Posted by: Che Pizza at December 01, 2008 02:42 AM (RLBRw)

25

great. Now go and tell your flock about your distaste for their hate.

Already done, and most of them share it. I'm a little concerned that you find it so odd that people often have sympathy for other people.

I don't think you will ever find a post by me that crosses the line in regards to believing some in Islam are sincere in their desire for peace. But it is a bridge too far to tell me not to make the connection between Islam and violence around the world at this time.

Okay, not to be a prick again, but how many Kyrgyz tangos are there?

It is NOT my job to support the parts of your community that are not attacking western civilization. It is yours. I will continue to doubt the sincerity of your religion of peace as long as your leaders remain silent about supposed Jihad.

I'm sorry, so how many muslim representative democracies with free presses are there?  How many do you foreign newspapers do you subscribe to?  How many theocratic opposition group websites do you frequent?  I can assure you that it's not because they aren't there. You don't know about them because when they get famous, people get dead.

It seems to me that Muslims are using the carrot and the stick approach to effecting change in the way they desire it. To get me, and others like me, to see it differently I need a civil war in your midst. I don't believe it will happen. It is easier to confront me than them.

Honestly, I don't care whether you are with or against my religion.  There won't be a "civil" war; you are talking about 50+ countries.  Each one will come to deal with it in its own way.  I agree Pakistan sucks - I mean come on, if they had just dealt with these tango fucksticks back in the day, they could be in a much better economic position.  But foolishly they believed they could hitch onto the Wahhabi bandwagon when it was convenient and hop off when the mission was over.  Welll, those Jihadi fucks had plans of their own.

Again, tell me about Tajikistan, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan...  none of which are in the Middle East or North Africa.

Posted by: flashoverride at December 01, 2008 02:44 AM (E/X9t)

26

Did mohammed commit genocide on the Jews at Medina? Did mohammed own slaves? Did mohammed found a cult that treats non-believers as less than human? Did mohammed betroth one of his wives when she was but six years old?

 

I am simply looking for answers here.

Posted by: nikkolai at December 01, 2008 02:46 AM (G8d+5)

27

Popcorn, "Islam" (the region of Muslim ruled countries comprising the Middle East and Northern Africa)

Wow.  Did we forget about Central Asia and the Khans?  Come the fuck on.  I expect better historical analysis form Morons.

is doing nothing to prevent and to stop terrorist-jihad around the world.

I was unaware that Bangladesh or Pakistan had global naval reach!  Or that the UAE's logistical pipeline allowed them to maintain at-ready forces around the world.

Rather, "Islam" the region is promulgating terrorism performed as jihad by Muslims. The radical element is intrinsic to "Islam".

Hmmmm, better tell my grandmother in law she's a tango, even though she's probably more interested in keeping herself and my sister in law fed.

Crying foul for recognizing that reality hardly makes "a longer and bloodier battle than we now face."

What reality?  That there are evil people?  Yes there are.  And we should invest the time and effort to take down these global networks, primarily because we're the ones with the economic and political will to do so.

Per thread topic, God bless India to thwart evil in her midst.

Inshallah.


The world just gets nastier the more that evil terror is tolerated.

True that, homey.

Posted by: flashoverride at December 01, 2008 02:51 AM (E/X9t)

28 Perhaps Islam's greatest problem in coming to grips with the contemporary world in a positive manner is that it's so decentralized.; rather than have a definitive head of the religion that could lead to a much-needed Reformation, it's divided between a large number of individual authority figures, any of whom can screw the pooch at a moment's notice with nobody able to tell them to STFU without engaging in a bloody conflict.  Until this is resolved (and none of the Islamic "scholars" seem to be overly preoccupied with this) I don't see anything changing regarding their inability to adjust to modern life.

Posted by: Captain Hate at December 01, 2008 02:58 AM (QyCAU)

29 The "Ultra" part annoys me, too because in when applied to a Chabad house, reaks of ignorance, and an almost complete lack of research on the part of a reporter and/or news service.  There are at least two reasons for this. 

First, the rabbi you will find at a Chabad house is a Lubavitcher (named after a town in Russia), which means he is someone who is dressed traditionally, but has an extremely modern outlook.  Lubavichers are, generally, very cool, worldly people.  They aren't typical traditional Jews who, e.g., are very suspicious of the Internet and all things modern.  Also, as this is AOSHQ, a Lubavitcher rabbi's wife is allowed to look beautiful (if modest) in her dress.  These are very cool, very warm, very with it people; they aren't quite modern orthodox a la Senator Lieberman, but nor are they "ultra orthodox." as in detached from the modern world, etc.  Check out Chabad.org.  These folk were some of the first to use the Internet in a powerful way.

Second, whether it be in Mumbai, or Knoxville, TN, most of the people you'll find at a Chabad House will not be Lubavitchers, or even the Orthodox; they'll be just ordinary Jews looking for some Jewish culture, spirituality or kosher food off the beaten path.

So, yes, the writer and/or ediitor of the story is pretty much showing their ignorance here; trying to second, or third-class the attack on the most peaceful and warm of people and institutions.

Posted by: FloofyParisParamus at December 01, 2008 02:59 AM (rbLHc)

30

Did mohammed commit genocide on the Jews at Medina?

In a word, <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_and_the_Jews>no.</>

Did mohammed own slaves?

In ~600 AD?  Is this a serious question?  Did Thomas Jefferson own slaves?

Did mohammed found a cult that treats non-believers as less than human?

No.

Did mohammed betroth one of his wives when she was but six years old?

Aisha?  Betroth does not mean consumate, and poilitcal marriages are not exactly unheard of in European history.

Posted by: flashoverride at December 01, 2008 02:59 AM (E/X9t)

31

Flash & Pop,

I don't think I've ever said all Muslims are evil.  In fact, at work I prefer dealing with them and the people from the Islamic center down the road more than I do a lot of the white, supposedly, Christian folk that come in and bitch about everything.  A few of them got going off on the "cowards" doing the Mumbai attacks and other terrorists through the years making Islam look bad (they were older gentlemen, I'd say in their 60's).  They brought it up because they were surprised that I took time to explain some of the computer equipment to them...which is kinda my job, but I guess they got bad service elsewhere the same day.

That being said, I don't see a lot of condemnation from Muslim leadership beyond the boilerplate they throw out whenever there's an attack.  It's kinda an internal contradiction, the way I see it.  My dealings with the local muslim faithful say they just want to go about their business, just like the rest of us.  What I see from the Islamic leadership globally says this kind of violence is at least tolerable, if not desirable.

Posted by: Ranba Ral at December 01, 2008 03:02 AM (fpk1J)

32

Perhaps Islam's greatest problem in coming to grips with the contemporary world in a positive manner is that it's so decentralized.; rather than have a definitive head of the religion that could lead to a much-needed Reformation, it's divided between a large number of individual authority figures, any of whom can screw the pooch at a moment's notice with nobody able to tell them to STFU without engaging in a bloody conflict.  Until this is resolved (and none of the Islamic "scholars" seem to be overly preoccupied with this) I don't see anything changing regarding their inability to adjust to modern life.
^

|

|

This

Inidividual Muslims fit in just fine all the time, but Islam drags behind.  There's no pope, no Canon, it's up to a decentralized group to keep things "straight"  And we know how well rule by commitee works....

Posted by: flashoverride at December 01, 2008 03:02 AM (E/X9t)

33

Ranba,

What global Islamic leadership are you talking about?  None exists.  The "Muslims" given the most airtime are Zawahiri's fucking undead self, Sadr, and whenever Bin laden can cough up a performance.

What else?  Ho many Mullahs do you hear on CNN?  What about the Saudi Mullah who forbade jihadism?  Nope, if it bleeds, it leads.

I suppose King Abdullah could say something, but he's tied in too deep with the Wahhabis...

Posted by: flashoverride at December 01, 2008 03:09 AM (E/X9t)

34 #32, "The Jews" are even less centralized, but don't suffer from dragging behind, and the reformation wasn't started by the Pope, so...

Posted by: FloofyParisParamus at December 01, 2008 03:11 AM (rbLHc)

35

#34,

I was unaware that there are more than a billion Jews.  My bad.

Also, Martin Luther didn't seek to contravene the Catholic church, he seeked to reform it.  Hence, reformation.  Hard to accomplish if there's no papacy.

Posted by: flashoverride at December 01, 2008 03:14 AM (E/X9t)

36 "Perhaps Islam's greatest problem in coming to grips with the contemporary world in a positive manner is that it's so decentralized.; rather than have a definitive head of the religion that could lead to a much-needed Reformation, it's divided between a large number of individual authority figures, any of whom can screw the pooch at a moment's notice with nobody able to tell them to STFU without engaging in a bloody conflict." Agreed. Damn good analysis! But someone needs to step-up fill the void and become large & loud voice of true (ie peaceful) Islam. Right now, all I hear is the loud voice CAIR. And they are doing the opposite, IMHO.

Posted by: Che Pizza at December 01, 2008 03:14 AM (RLBRw)

37 35, well, if you look at it that way, of there being a centralized, coherent "church" to reform, I guess you have a point, but that's not what you wrote (" There's no pope, no Canon, it's up to a decentralized group to keep things "straight").

Posted by: FloofyParisParamus at December 01, 2008 03:20 AM (rbLHc)

38 Flash: "I'm a little concerned that you find it so odd that people often have sympathy for other people." Don't know where you got that but I don't care about sympathy that does not try to reverse the violence. Again my perception, not being a Muslim, is that the outrage in the Muslim community is greater about being associated with the terrorists than at the terrorists themselves. "but how many Kyrgyz tangos are there?" Ignorance here. Is that web/military speak? "How many do you foreign newspapers do you subscribe to?" I suppose this will disqualify me from further discussion but The Jeruselum Post. I also read Arabnews.com a lot. Were you saying that support was a state function? If so I misunderstood. "Honestly, I don't care whether you are with or against my religion. " That is not the point and you know it. The question is whether your religion should be viewed as a threat to the well being of society. You don't like to be grouped with the terrorists and want me to always believe the Muslim world is peaceful. I can't do that with out some evidence of kickback against the Wahhabi bandwagon. "There won't be a "civil" war; you are talking about 50+ countries. Each one will come to deal with it in its own way" I know Islam is not monolithic but there is a "Zeitgeist" that seems to permeate the Islamic world. Until they, "come to deal with it in its own way", are we allowed to be extremely distrustful of the religion of peace? "Again, tell me about Tajikistan, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan... none of which are in the Middle East or North Africa." Again I have no idea of what your referring to. Last. I will not do a disclaimer here to prove that I am not a racist or Islamaphobic. I find those statements to be of little use. I am open to having my perception changed.

Posted by: locus ceruleus at December 01, 2008 03:20 AM (e2mBS)

39 "Hey hey hey now, these weren't ultra-orthodox Muslims."

According to the AP, all Muslims are moderate and victims of Christians and Jooos (which are, of course, ultra-something after all!). AP believes cold-blooded murder (actually, really cold-blooded for real) is justified to "get the word out" about how ill-treated they are.


Posted by: dfbaskwill at December 01, 2008 03:33 AM (ympAm)

40

"I'm a little concerned that you find it so odd that people often have sympathy for other people."

Don't know where you got that but I don't care about sympathy that does not try to reverse the violence. Again my perception, not being a Muslim, is that the outrage in the Muslim community is greater about being associated with the terrorists than at the terrorists themselves.

And please explain to me how a majority of the muslim world is supposed to accomplish the condmentation when they live in 2nd world countries where access to the web is commonly limited and freedom of the press is generally unheard of?  The reason you perceive the outrage at being associated with the Mslims as being louder is because that's all you hear, and quite frankly all you're trained to listen for.


"but how many Kyrgyz tangos are there?"

Ignorance here. Is that web/military speak?

How many terrorists do you hear about are from Hanafi Sunni Kyrgyszstan?  I would guess roughly zero.

"How many do you foreign newspapers do you subscribe to?"

I suppose this will disqualify me from further discussion but The Jeruselum Post. I also read Arabnews.com a lot. Were you saying that support was a state function? If so I misunderstood.

In most of the world, the press is a state or quasi state function (meaning subject to state review, ergo self censoring).  Quit thinking about this from the American mindset, try to understand a VAST MAJORITY of the rest of the world does not enjoy a free press (liberal cocksucks as they may be here).

"Honestly, I don't care whether you are with or against my religion. "

That is not the point and you know it. The question is whether your religion should be viewed as a threat to the well being of society. You don't like to be grouped with the terrorists and want me to always believe the Muslim world is peaceful. I can't do that with out some evidence of kickback against the Wahhabi bandwagon.


How about the fact that a billion muslims aren't at war with the world?  What do you want, exactly?  What would pacify or mollify you?

"There won't be a "civil" war; you are talking about 50+ countries. Each one will come to deal with it in its own way"

I know Islam is not monolithic but there is a "Zeitgeist" that seems to permeate the Islamic world. Until they, "come to deal with it in its own way", are we allowed to be extremely distrustful of the religion of peace?

"Zeitgeist"?  So... what you're saying is that there's a media construct and inherent bias.... but....  OF COURSE YOU'RE ALLOWED TO DO WHATEVER THE FUCK YOU WANT.  THIS IS AMERICA.  I'm just voicing the opinion that I'm sick of my two muslim children being declared satanist jihadist cocksucks before they reach the age of majority.


"Again, tell me about Tajikistan, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan... none of which are in the Middle East or North Africa."

Again I have no idea of what your referring to.

YOU HAVE NO IDEA OF SEVERAL COUNTRIES IN CENTRAL ASIA?!!!  FORMER SOVIET REPUBLICS? WTF?!!!!!

Last. I will not do a disclaimer here to prove that I am not a racist or Islamaphobic. I find those statements to be of little use. I am open to having my perception changed.

Rock on, I don't really expect to change your perception, except to be the exception that "proves" the rule.  Think what you want.  This is America.

 

Posted by: flashoverride at December 01, 2008 03:42 AM (E/X9t)

41 Man. This thread is heading the wrong direction. Should we just skip the formalities and just start the full on flame war now?

Posted by: Che Pizza at December 01, 2008 03:44 AM (RLBRw)

42 "41 Man. This thread is heading the wrong direction. Should we just skip the formalities and just start the full on flame war now?" You suck, Che Pizza, but not as bad as Islam.

Posted by: Bugler at December 01, 2008 03:49 AM (YCVBL)

43 Blow me Bugler! Before the Jihadists blow you up, bitch.

Posted by: Che Pizza at December 01, 2008 03:52 AM (RLBRw)

44

Che,

Agreed.  Although I must point out that CAIR is predominatly Arab controlled...

Arabs comprise roughly 15% of muslims...  but god damn do they cause most of the problems.

Posted by: flashoverride at December 01, 2008 03:56 AM (E/X9t)

45 I'd like to nominate Imraan Khan to be "Douche Of The Day" (DOTD).
Note this pic was taken in Mumbai moments before the attacks started.

Posted by: Che Pizza at December 01, 2008 03:58 AM (RLBRw)

46

Yep, that's a douchbagtastic shirt.  My parents (adoptive) once had my little bro so brainwashed he wore a 1492 original freedom fighters (it had some natives on it) or something like that shirt.

Needless to say, after some wall to wall counseling, he's an 0311 in the USMC....

Posted by: flashoverride at December 01, 2008 04:01 AM (E/X9t)

47 Flash Let's make this simple. I don't think all Muslims are evil. "Again, tell me about Tajikistan, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan... none of which are in the Middle East or North Africa." My question here was what about them? You did not set that up with any insight for me. Seemed like a carry on from another conversation. If I understand your points above you are saying that there a large parts of the Islamic world that are not violent. I am happy to here it. Flash you seem to infer insult where none was given. I have to go to work so I will leave on this note. I have read your posts on this site before and believe you to be a sincere moron.

Posted by: locus ceruleus at December 01, 2008 04:04 AM (e2mBS)

48 Couldn't happen to a nicer guy ....

FOX News sister network Sky News has obtained exclusive footage of the moment security services captured the man said to be the only surviving terrorist behind the Mumbai attacks.

The footage, which was captured on a mobile phone, shows a furious crowd beating the alleged terrorist, Ajmal Qasab, before he is taken away. It allegedly shows him with other gunmen on Marine Drive, a few streets away from the train station where the group had just carried out a killing spree.Fleeing the scene of the carnage, the gunmen were forced to stop because the tyres of their getaway car had blown out.

Within seconds, they were surrounded by unarmed police. At least 172 people were killed and hundreds more hurt when 10 militants armed with automatic weapons and grenades attacked sites across the Indian city last week.

Sky reporter Ashish Joshi, in Mumbai, said: "Officers told them to come out of the car with their hands up. They did, but Qasab had a gun between his legs which he then brought out and shot three officers dead.

"It was seen by passers-by who shouted 'Look, look, they're killing police officers' and then suddenly from every direction a mob gathered. "They over-powered him and started beating and attacking him. Then another police unit arrived and he was arrested."

 

Posted by: Wolverine at December 01, 2008 04:05 AM (FVGJ9)

49 Although I must point out that CAIR is predominatly Arab controlled...

I don't care if CAIR is predominately arab or hockey fan controlled.  Its still the loudest and biggest voice of Muslims here in the states - even if it doesn't properly represent them.

There needs to be a bigger & louder voice of normal Islam to drown-out CAIR.  Until then, Islam is going to continue to get a bad rap.

Posted by: Che Pizza at December 01, 2008 04:07 AM (RLBRw)

50 Muslims can't be Americans(they can't seem to be English, Frech or Spanish either).  Easy that.  They put sharia above all other law. 

Posted by: Anon at December 01, 2008 04:10 AM (W0B71)

51

Let's make this simple. I don't think all Muslims are evil.

"Again, tell me about Tajikistan, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan... none of which are in the Middle East or North Africa."

My question here was what about them? You did not set that up with any insight for me. Seemed like a carry on from another conversation.


It was.  Someone else had mentioned something about muslims only being in N. Africa and the ME, and this is a foolish assumption.  Not neccesarily anyhting you implied or said.

If I understand your points above you are saying that there a large parts of the Islamic world that are not violent. I am happy to here it.

No, what I am saying is that the vast majority of the Islamic world that has access to information from tertiary sources or better condemns this attack.  But you'lll never hear it or hear about it, because there' no CNN or CNBC or CBS or BBC office in Bishkek or Almaty or Dushanbe.

Flash you seem to infer insult where none was given. I have to go to work so I will leave on this note. I have read your posts on this site before and believe you to be a sincere moron.

I try to be.  I spent many years in uniform in service to my country, and I honestly believe that our open, capitalistic ways of life are the best and free-est on the planet.  I wish many of my relatives who live in other foreign countries ( many of which I have spent signifigant amounts of time in) could enjoy the same benefits and rights I enjoy as an American citizen.  I'm often hesistant to step up to the plate in full islamobash mode, but somehow the Val-U-Rite was extra fortified tonight.

Posted by: flashoverride at December 01, 2008 04:13 AM (E/X9t)

52

Muslims can't be Americans(they can't seem to be English, Frech or Spanish either).  Easy that.  They put sharia above all other law

Umm...  Suck a fat one, you ignorant douchfucking cockholstering son of a two day unwashed whore.

FUCKING DIE IN A FIRE.

Where's the Sharia in central Asia?  OH THAT'S RIGHT THERE IS NONE GO FUCK YOURSELF.

Posted by: flashoverride at December 01, 2008 04:16 AM (E/X9t)

53 Moderate Islam does exist, but it is un-Islamic. Muhammad was no moderate.

Posted by: Chassidic Rabbit at December 01, 2008 04:17 AM (TjQq9)

54 flash,

I've been on the "there are no bad neighborhoods, just bad people that live in them" side of this issue since 9/11, believing that "moderate" Muslims make up the vast majority of Islam.  I'm finding it rather difficult to maintain that view.  Since 9/11 there have been over 12,000 terrorist attacks worldwide with another 5,000 plus thwarted before implemented.  These are Muslim attacks...so what percentage of those billion Muslims are jihadists?

I figure if just 1% are in this category, then we have to deal with a million crazed murderers hellbent on destroying the "infidels". 

So while I will not say that all Muslims are terrorists, I will say that almost all of these 17,000 plus instances were perpetrated by Muslims. 

Posted by: rls at December 01, 2008 04:20 AM (5fIu7)

55

Moderate Islam does exist, but it is un-Islamic. Muhammad was no moderate.

Okay, once more, Muhammed (SAW) was a prophet, not Allah.  Anyone who worships Muhammed (SAW) is not a Muslim.

Posted by: flashoverride at December 01, 2008 04:21 AM (E/X9t)

56

I've been on the "there are no bad neighborhoods, just bad people that live in them" side of this issue since 9/11, believing that "moderate" Muslims make up the vast majority of Islam.  I'm finding it rather difficult to maintain that view.  Since 9/11 there have been over 12,000 terrorist attacks worldwide with another 5,000 plus thwarted before implemented. 

There have been many, many more attacks than that.  What about Hindu on Muslim? Or Hindu on Chrisitian?  Or Buddhist on Christian, or vice versa?

These are Muslim attacks...so what percentage of those billion Muslims are jihadists?

I figure if just 1% are in this category, then we have to deal with a million crazed murderers hellbent on destroying the "infidels".  So while I will not say that all Muslims are terrorists, I will say that almost all of these 17,000 plus instances were perpetrated by Muslims. 

Say what you want.  I'm gonna go with there were far more than 17,000 instances in the past 6-7 years, how about that?

Remember that in Rwanda 850,000 were murdered with machetes between the Hutu And the Tutsis.  That shit didn't happen overnight.

 

Posted by: flashoverride at December 01, 2008 04:26 AM (E/X9t)

57

Flash,

I know there's no equivalent to Islamic Pope or Congress of Cardinals.  I'm talking about the various Imams, Mullahs, or whatever they call the priests in a given area, who hold national spotlights or leadership positions and Muslim interest groups (eg. CAIR), and the leaders of Muslim nations.  When I've looked, I've mostly only been able to find boilerplate "terrorism is bad, mmmkay, but you're all biggots" from such people, if anything at all.  Most of any type of deep soul-searching, analysis, or condemnation I've been able to find have come from non-Muslim sources analyzing the difference between average Muslim family-man and Achmed The Terrorist.  

The notible exceptions are that I've found instances of about 5 or 6 public statements of different Mullahs forbidding Jihad amongst their followers.  But there again, this is not the unified docterine of a unified "church".

Thus my point on duplicity in the last post.

As for your CNN point: I haven't watched CNN since that incident in the airport about 2 years after 9/11 where the Air Mashalls shot that unarmed guy who was screaming his backpack was a bomb.  First thing out of the CNN anchor's mouth after they found out he didn't really have a bomb was to call for the disbanning of the "Bush Air Marshal service" because they were clearly incompetent.  Amusingly enough, I know this same douchetool would be calling for the same thing, for the same reason, had the guy actually had a bomb and detonated it and the Air Marshal had not shot him to prevent it.  When I've been flipping through stations and caught a part of a broadcast it's obvious it's only gotten more partisan since.  In fact, I don't watch the other network news stations for much the same reason, and in one case filial reasons.  I prefer to read it, like say on a news website (admittedly sometimes the big 3's webpages), then research for myself topics I find interesting from there.

I've looked through Lexis Nexis and a few other huge online databases I have access to through school.  I may just not be searching for the right thing, and if you've got any recommendations on where to start, I'd be more than happy to check them out.

Posted by: Ranba Ral at December 01, 2008 04:26 AM (fpk1J)

58 FloofyParisParamus at December 01, 2008 07:59 Nice post, Floof!

Posted by: Remember the Kat-Mo! at December 01, 2008 04:28 AM (s7gH7)

59 That's a nice side step, flash.  I wasn't getting into the "civil wars" that are going on in Africa.  I was talking about "terrorist" attacks, but you're so goddamn defensive about your chosen religion, you have to get your fur up.  What percentage of these billion Muslims in your opinion have the jihadi fire?

Posted by: rls at December 01, 2008 04:30 AM (5fIu7)

60 Franklin said about the United States, "A Republic, if you can keep it."  I'd say similar about Islam, "a Religion, if you can keep it", because to me it appears to be a violent ideology intent on ruling the world.  With apologies to Godwin, not all Germans were Nazis, but we ended that war by bombing and invading Germany.

The lesson for moderate Muslims ought to be clear.  This is not a threat, it is an observation.  You had better get control of your radicals.  The world is running out of patience. 

Posted by: MarkD at December 01, 2008 04:37 AM (qZFLO)

61

That's a nice side step, flash.  I wasn't getting into the "civil wars" that are going on in Africa.  I was talking about "terrorist" attacks, but you're so goddamn defensive about your chosen religion, you have to get your fur up.  What percentage of these billion Muslims in your opinion have the jihadi fire?

Short answer, not a clue.  Long answer, mostly folks who have the means and wherewithal to make contact with the more extremist groups.  It would be intertisng to commission a study in High-speed internet penetration into 2nd world countries and the spread of jihadi recruiting, because I believe they are likely interlinked.  I think that the US is getting defeated on the propaganda front, primarily because we rely on Coca Cola and Nike too much and not on good ol' Radio Free America.

Posted by: flashoverride at December 01, 2008 04:37 AM (E/X9t)

62

Cool your thrusters, flash.  Nobody here is declaring your kids to be anything. 

The problem is that with very few exceptions, whenever a Muslim terror attack takes place, whether it's India or wherever, you just don't hear much in the way of righteous indignation from Muslim leaders in general, other than the usual "Yeah, well, but...it's the damned JOOOOOOS fault".

And frankly, I would not expect much in the way of sympathy until and unless a clear majority of the presumably peaceful Muslims get up and howl loud and long about how those terrorist cocksuckers who go around killing little girls are most decidedly not acting in your collective name.  Unfortunately this has not happened yet, certainly not anywhere near the degree that it should be.

 

Posted by: Cave Bear at December 01, 2008 04:37 AM (EKMxC)

63 flash: no offense, but you don't seem like a very observant muslim. I have trouble imagining you actually practicing your religion. There's obviously non observant people in all religions, but it seems Islam has the most rules.

Posted by: Remember the Kat-Mo! at December 01, 2008 04:39 AM (s7gH7)

64

Cave,

Again, please note that most dominant Muslim couintries do not have a free press.  You are listening for something that will (most liekly) never come, and are confusing that silence with acceptance or approval.

Posted by: flashoverride at December 01, 2008 04:41 AM (E/X9t)

65

Okay, once more, Muhammed (SAW) was a prophet, not Allah.  Anyone who worships Muhammed (SAW) is not a Muslim.

Posted by: flashoverride at December 01, 2008 09:21 AM (E/X9t)

Can someone translate this piece of poetry from Insanish?

Posted by: Chassidic Rabbit at December 01, 2008 04:42 AM (TjQq9)

66

flash: no offense, but you don't seem like a very observant muslim. I have trouble imagining you actually practicing your religion. There's obviously non observant people in all religions, but it seems Islam has the most rules.

Kat-Mo:  I'm not.  I drink.  A lot.  That being said, the rules things depends.  Are we talking Sunni or Shiite?  Are we talking Hanafi or Wahhabi?

I have fasted during Ramadan, and been to mosques in 3 countries so far.  Nobody has threatened to cut my head off yet.

Posted by: flashoverride at December 01, 2008 04:43 AM (E/X9t)

67

Can someone translate this piece of poetry from Insanish?

ANYONE WHO WORSHIPS MOHAMMED IS WORSHIPPING AN IDOL.  WTF IS SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?

Posted by: flashoverride at December 01, 2008 04:46 AM (E/X9t)

68 ""When asked if the commandos attempted to capture them alive at that stage, he replied: "Unko bachana kaun chahega (Who will want to save them)?""

GASP! what about their rights?!?!?! What about their freedoms of expression, to be heard, and their humanity?!?!?!


Some moonbat SOB lawyer is/has thought that, and shame on him.

My heart goes out to the victums of India's 9/11.

And, those creation's souls do a slow turn in Hell's flames.

Posted by: Fred Zeppelin at December 01, 2008 04:47 AM (WQ/EZ)

69

"How about the fact that a billion muslims aren't at war with the world?  What do you want, exactly?  What would pacify or mollify you?"

How about a billion less muslims!

I am sick and tired of you asshats whining about the "persecution " of your religion.If you don't like it don't tell people your religous beliefs.Or better yet,stop killing innocent fucking people by the busload.I am o.k. with killing as many of you motherfuckers as it takes to get that "small %"of the real koranimals under control.If it takes a billion,then you motherfuckers are even more stupid than I thought.

Fuck you and your motherfucking religion asshole.

Posted by: vae victus at December 01, 2008 04:47 AM (oi4Yx)

70

Vae,

Fuck you too.  I didn't mention shit about persecution, you ignorant assfuck.  Maybe if your reading comprehension level exceeded third fucking grade you would understand that.

Just because other people don't agree with you or think like you, we should kill them?  You're not a conservative, you're a fucking cocksucking fascist ignorant fuck.  Which probably fits you in better with the KosKids in terms of tolerance of outside opinions.

Posted by: flashoverride at December 01, 2008 04:52 AM (E/X9t)

71

ANYONE WHO WORSHIPS MOHAMMED IS WORSHIPPING AN IDOL.  WTF IS SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?

Posted by: flashoverride at December 01, 2008 09:46 AM (E/X9t)

What this has to do with the argument that Muhammad wasn't an moderate? Muhammad=Koran. Koran=Islam. Are you really that stupid? Is youtube offline or something? And what's with the caps? That doesn't make you sound extremely sane.

Posted by: Chassidic Rabbit at December 01, 2008 04:53 AM (TjQq9)

72

What this has to do with the argument that Muhammad wasn't an moderate?

Irrelevent.

Muhammad=Koran.

Fail.

Koran=Islam.

Fail.

Are you really that stupid? Is youtube offline or something? And what's with the caps? That doesn't make you sound extremely sane.

I really don't care how it makes me "sound". I tried to relay information to you, you attempted to rebut it.  I put special emphasis on my statement because I'd made it once already.

Posted by: flashoverride at December 01, 2008 04:56 AM (E/X9t)

73 UNLEASH THE FURY!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: CAPS LOCK at December 01, 2008 04:58 AM (zl17B)

74

"I am sick and tired of you asshats whining about the "persecution " of your religion."

Now it would make sense to argue that the Muslim religion is not persecuted, right?  But no:

"If you don't like it don't tell people your religous beliefs."

Wow.  You're a great American, vae.

"Or better yet, stop killing innocent fucking people by the busload."

Yes, I wish Islamist nutcases would stop doing that too.  And I run low on sympathy for Muslims who can't imagine how the rest of us start to associate terrorism with Islam.  Unfair!

Still, flashoverride's point--that he, his family, and other Muslims don't deserve to be presumed terrorists--is absolutely right.

"I am o.k. with killing as many of you motherfuckers as it takes to get that 'small %' of the real koranimals under control. If it takes a billion, then you motherfuckers are even more stupid than I thought."

How you're to be preferred to Islamist fanatics who support killing as many Americans as it takes to establish the Caliphate, escapes me just now, though I'm sure you'll have your reasons.  People like you always do.

Posted by: JPS at December 01, 2008 05:11 AM (kdlWL)

75 Sure hope the Pakis have their ass-kicking insurance paid up if it turns out that the ISI was involved.

Posted by: mojo at December 01, 2008 05:18 AM (g1cNf)

76 While we're on the topic of what we're getting sick and tired of, I'm sick and tired of hearing about "rogue elements within the ISI." Screw that. The ISI is an arm of Pakistan's government. If the ISI sponsors or encourages terrorist acts, then Pakistan's government is responsible.

Posted by: Bugler at December 01, 2008 05:27 AM (YCVBL)

77

Cry all you want about my barbarism you fucking asshats.I am sick and tired of hearing about these fucking koranimals torturing and murdering innocent people.They have been exporting thier special brand of terror for over thirty years now.What the fuck have you motherfuckers ever done to stop it?

And because of muslims cowardice(the supposed "innocent "ones anyway)America has to take charge in that part of the world to clean up after you and your stone age religion.

If ace or whomever takes offense to my posts I can understand if he/she deletes them.But to you flash,again,fuck you and your religion!

Posted by: vae victus at December 01, 2008 05:31 AM (oi4Yx)

78

Well, flash is certainly a sincere convert to Islam. When Islamic terrorists kill infidels, "moderate" Muslims worry about how it affects them but the victims, not so much.

Posted by: andycanuck at December 01, 2008 05:37 AM (MJZdi)

79

Cry all you want about my barbarism you fucking asshats.I am sick and tired of hearing about these fucking koranimals torturing and murdering innocent people.They have been exporting thier special brand of terror for over thirty years now.What the fuck have you motherfuckers ever done to stop it?

5 years in the United States Marine Corps.

And because of muslims cowardice(the supposed "innocent "ones anyway)America has to take charge in that part of the world to clean up after you and your stone age religion.

Again, the vast majority of people you are talking about do not have access to outside news short of a post-tertiary source.  Which is as good as playing fucking telephone.  They also have no way to respond, and no infrastructure or logistical capability if they were so inclined.

If ace or whomever takes offense to my posts I can understand if he/she deletes them.But to you flash,again,fuck you and your religion!

Fuck you too, dick monkey.  By the way, I'll be teaching my son Arabic, and hopefully Urdu and Pasthun, and whatever other Iranian dialects I can.  He's not an Arab, but with his current bilingualism, by the time he's 18 he'll be a far greater asset to national security than I ever was.  If he chooses to go that path.

Seriously, if he becomes an artist or somethingI might shoot myself.  I'd settle for engineer.

Posted by: flashoverride at December 01, 2008 05:37 AM (E/X9t)

80

Well, flash is certainly a sincere convert to Islam. When Islamic terrorists kill infidels, "moderate" Muslims worry about how it affects them but the victims, not so much.

If I could raise the dead I would, but that wasn't the initial comment I responded to, was it?  A little intellectual honesty?  I understand that is in short supply.

I already condemened the acts, unless you missed my first several posts.

Posted by: flashoverride at December 01, 2008 05:39 AM (E/X9t)

81 Your co-religionists need to tighten up their shot group, sport. This whole Chewbacca defense thing you've got going is what pisses off the civilized world. "Muslim terrorists? What about Kyrgziplinkistan? They produce 30 percent of the world's guano-derived energy." Nobody fucking cares about how many non-terrorist Muslims there are. We care about the ten million murderous cocksuckers out there, if only one percent of them are on the jihad train. So you're not one of them. Congratulations. How about a hand policing up the ones that are? Identifying imams in local mosques that preach jihad, recruiting like-minded Arabic speakers to infiltrate some of these bullshit charity groups that finance terrorism? You implied that sunlight is the best disinfectant, so how about shining some of that shit on your own religion? Or you can sit back, keep protesting that you're one of the many "good ones" and hey, it's only a tiny fraction of Muslims anyway. Stay on that course and I guarantee you about 500 kilotons of American Sunshine are going to burst over Islamic cities eventually. These types of attacks are ramping up, not winding down and eventually, the world is going to lose it's patience. When that happens, there won't be any desire to separate the goats and the sheep like there is now. We keep soaking up losses, and eventually somebody's going to start promoting the hoof-and-mouth disease remedy: if there isn't any hoof-and-mouth disease, then there won't BE any. It may sound like a shitty deal to put that all on your shoulders, but we're not Muslims, YOU are. It's our job to defend ourselves against your co-religionists. It's your job to police your own ranks.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at December 01, 2008 05:41 AM (+u87E)

82 You watch -- the next target will be Dubai. 

Posted by: Coogen at December 01, 2008 05:44 AM (h4UWR)

83 Defending the concept of "moderate Islam" by noting that most moderates live under repressive governments is sort of like the guy who murders his parents and then pleads for leniency because he's an orphan.

Posted by: Bugler at December 01, 2008 05:44 AM (YCVBL)

84 Wow. That got out of hand quickly.

Brick Tamland: Yeah. I killed a guy with a trident.

Posted by: Ron Burgundy de Blog at December 01, 2008 05:46 AM (nOQ1R)

85 There's a book that would shed a lot of light on this discussion, The Looming Tower. In brief, modern Islamic Jihad is crucially dependent on a heretical doctrine called Takfir, which allows adherents to rationalize away some of the most adamant restrictions in classical Islam—particularly against suicide, and killing civilians. So in that sense, Islamic terrorism is truly non-Islamic. The trouble is that Takfir is spreading widely throughout the Islamic world. Islam is being taken over by pod people. Unless the traditionalists get their shit together and fight back, there will soon be no distinction between Takfirism and Islam. The other problem is that this whole phenomenon is interacting with the remnants of the racist, fascist ideology of pan-Arab socialism. The result is as we see. Remember that for a long time, Islam was far more enlightened than Christianity. During the Crusades, the Jews fought alongside the Muslims because we knew we'd be massacred if the Crusaders won.

Posted by: Mastiff at December 01, 2008 05:54 AM (byVeT)

86

Defending the concept of "moderate Islam" by noting that most moderates live under repressive governments is sort of like the guy who murders his parents and then pleads for leniency because he's an orphan.

I'm not defending "moderate Islam".  I'm stating it exists.  I'm further stating that the reason you don't hear about it is that the means for "moderate" Islam to epress itself don't exist in the way that you and I understand them to exist.

But of course I'm sure we can write whole countries off to doom right?  It's only Kyrgyzstan/Russia/Bosnia/The Soviet Union/Poland/Czechkslovakia.  We're good at that.

Posted by: flashoverride at December 01, 2008 05:55 AM (E/X9t)

87 My point is that Islamic governments are repressive governments. Those governments aren't formed in a vacuum--they're repressive because they're Islamic.

Posted by: Bugler at December 01, 2008 06:03 AM (YCVBL)

88

My point is that Islamic governments are repressive governments. Those governments aren't formed in a vacuum--they're repressive because they're Islamic.

 

You are correct in a sense - in that some of the folks who formed these governments were united from "Islamic" ideology.  There are many exceptions, like Ataturk and such - but a lot of these governments see Islam as a way to pacify folks and cement their rule.

Governments that are run by "Shari'a" are unbelieveably oppresive and anti-Quranic.  By and large they are Arabic or Arabic funded, because they rely far more heavily on the Hadith and Sunnat than on the Quran.

Posted by: flashoverride at December 01, 2008 06:09 AM (E/X9t)

89 Flash:  you mentioned service in the Marines.  Just out of curiosity, what was your MOS?

Posted by: Trimegistus at December 01, 2008 06:13 AM (V7sUe)

90

Flash keeps talking about a small % of muslims being the problem.If I knew more about this internet tube thing I would link him to the videos of his co-religionists dancing in the streets upon hearing the news of THREE THOUSAND Americans being murdered.

For me personally,I will never forget the images of my fellow Americans jumping to thier death to escape being burned alive.That trumps all sympathy I might have had for these people.

"Again, the vast majority of people you are talking about do not have access to outside news short of a post-tertiary source.  Which is as good as playing fucking telephone.  They also have no way to respond, and no infrastructure or logistical capability if they were so inclined."

Thats it flash,keep making excuses for these people looking the other way while thier brothers are busy killing innocent people in droves.

Posted by: vae victus at December 01, 2008 06:13 AM (oi4Yx)

91

Your co-religionists need to tighten up their shot group, sport. This whole Chewbacca defense thing you've got going is what pisses off the civilized world. "Muslim terrorists? What about Kyrgziplinkistan? They produce 30 percent of the world's guano-derived energy."

Wow.  Go ahead and write off whole countries, simply because you've never heard of them.  Now we've determined that you're an inconsiderate fuckhead wrapped in a 9/10 worldview.


Nobody fucking cares about how many non-terrorist Muslims there are. We care about the ten million murderous cocksuckers out there, if only one percent of them are on the jihad train.

No thoughts as to how to stop the train, derail the train, co-opt the train, offload the train, or stop the train?  That's some linear thinking for ya...

So you're not one of them. Congratulations. How about a hand policing up the ones that are? Identifying imams in local mosques that preach jihad, recruiting like-minded Arabic speakers to infiltrate some of these bullshit charity groups that finance terrorism? You implied that sunlight is the best disinfectant, so how about shining some of that shit on your own religion?

Been there, done that.  My previous mosque gave services in Russian.  Here in Seattle they're busy with exchange programs with the local churches.


Or you can sit back, keep protesting that you're one of the many "good ones" and hey, it's only a tiny fraction of Muslims anyway. Stay on that course and I guarantee you about 500 kilotons of American Sunshine are going to burst over Islamic cities eventually. These types of attacks are ramping up, not winding down and eventually, the world is going to lose it's patience.

So you're down to threating destrcution of those who don't believe as you do?  Fuckin' A if that was written in Arabic I'd say you were more of a mind with those tangos than not.


When that happens, there won't be any desire to separate the goats and the sheep like there is now. We keep soaking up losses, and eventually somebody's going to start promoting the hoof-and-mouth disease remedy: if there isn't any hoof-and-mouth disease, then there won't BE any.

Because we have totally nuked heavily AIDS infected countries in Africa.

It may sound like a shitty deal to put that all on your shoulders, but we're not Muslims, YOU are. It's our job to defend ourselves against your co-religionists. It's your job to police your own ranks.

Wow.  So I get to police all Muslims in the world?  gonna have to see aboutsome fatwas involving Val-U-Rite vodka....

Posted by: flashoverride at December 01, 2008 06:15 AM (E/X9t)

92

Flash keeps talking about a small % of muslims being the problem.If I knew more about this internet tube thing I would link him to the videos of his co-religionists dancing in the streets upon hearing the news of THREE THOUSAND Americans being murdered.

Idiots rejoice at fuckatry, right?  I mean, Obama did just win the election, right?

For me personally,I will never forget the images of my fellow Americans jumping to thier death to escape being burned alive.That trumps all sympathy I might have had for these people.

Nor will I.  You assume these were not my fellow Americans.  Fuck you asshole, I was in my shop getting my Devil dogs squared away for the war we were sure was to follow.  I voluntereed to go on the 26 MEU but they didn't rate my MOS, so I got told pack sand.  I did get to play OPFOR to their GCE, so I didn't piss and moan too much.

"Again, the vast majority of people you are talking about do not have access to outside news short of a post-tertiary source.  Which is as good as playing fucking telephone.  They also have no way to respond, and no infrastructure or logistical capability if they were so inclined."

Thats it flash,keep making excuses for these people looking the other way while thier brothers are busy killing innocent people in droves.

Again, please explain how people with no existing infrastructure are supposed to get A) Electricity B) Cable C) OTA Broadcasts from outlets that aren't state sponsored D) High speed internet or E)Telecom lines?

You can't becaue you don't even understand how that co-axial cable that comes in your wall brings all that shit to your CRT.  FOAD.

 

Posted by: flashoverride at December 01, 2008 06:25 AM (E/X9t)

93

Flash,

Non-violent Muslims require no defense here, but you have taken a good first step along the path to reclaiming your religion.  Your enemy is not here, they can be found in the many within your religion who have given it a bad name.

It has always seemed a feeble answer to speak of the "many good Germans" during the Nazi period.  True as it is, there were not nearly enough of them, or loud enough nor willing enough to stand up to the jackboot.  While your comments against terrorism are welcome, call me when they are made from a podium in Tehran – as it is a far different thing to speak truth to power when the consequences are extreme.

So it is today in much of the Muslim world where a trip to Israel can lose you a Parliament seat, or making a movie or writing a book can get you dead. At least in one respect, the objectives of the Nazi's cannot be distinguished from the aims of many Muslim Clerics.  Far too many high Muslim leaders have advocated terrorism and "death to Israel", even in the Mosques of London and Detroit.

Far too few high Muslim leaders have come out against, and we are still waiting for the Muslim brother of that young man who stood before the tank in Tiananmen.

And while it is all well and good to complain of media bias, you might forgive my lack of outrage while a high percentage of Muslims and Muslim leaders want me dead.

 

So you can stuff your complaints and your thin-skinned reaction to minor slights while they are still wiping up the blood in Mumbai.  Instead, go to that Mosque in Detroit or London and stand and say: “No! Not here, not again.”

Posted by: Robert at December 01, 2008 06:28 AM (VotgB)

94

Just gotta love flashs conclusion that if you want to stop terrorism,and do whatever is necessary for that to happen, it makes you no better than the terrorists.Yep,your a muslim alright.

Posted by: vae victus at December 01, 2008 06:32 AM (oi4Yx)

95

Hey flash,whose fault is it these motherfuckers are living in the stone age.

Also,who is the stupid one here?I'm not the fucking idiot who joined a stone age religion full of murdering/wife killing/goat fucking koranimals that your now forced to defend!

Posted by: vae victus at December 01, 2008 06:41 AM (oi4Yx)

96 I defend the apostrophes.

You're is the contraction of you are.
Live it.
Love it.

Posted by: Spelling and Grammar Czar de Blog at December 01, 2008 06:44 AM (nOQ1R)

97

I don't think it's wise to unduly annoy a Devil Dog...

Flash, I understand where you are coming from.  And yes, I understand that there are plenty of Muslims out there (particularly in the Stans) who are not into this crap.

Unfortunately, what is going to have to happen is that a clear majority of Muslims are going to have to speak up, sooner or later, and in no uncertain terms, to make their feelings known.  Also, it would help if a respectable number would take up arms to hunt down and kill these chickenshit motherfuckers.

It's sad but true that until this does happen, a lot of people are going to paint your faith with a too-broad brush, like it or not, when it comes to the murder of innocents.

 

Posted by: Cave Bear at December 01, 2008 06:57 AM (EKMxC)

98

Wow.  Go ahead and write off whole countries, simply because you've never heard of them.  Now we've determined that you're an inconsiderate fuckhead wrapped in a 9/10 worldview.

Who's "we," asshole?  Muslims?  Like I give a fuck.  I'm worried about the country of which I'm a citizen and a veteran of it's armed forces.  My 9/10 worldview is the same as my 9/12 worldview.  We just hadn't had as many of our people killed in one shot before on our soil.  Go suck a cock, you sensitive bitch.

Been there, done that.  My previous mosque gave services in Russian.  Here in Seattle they're busy with exchange programs with the local churches.

Hit the showers, then.  Seems like you've got things under control. 

So you're down to threating destrcution of those who don't believe as you do?  Fuckin' A if that was written in Arabic I'd say you were more of a mind with those tangos than not.

Minus 100 points for continued use of the term "tangos", Mall Ninja.  And I'm not threatening destruction.  YOUR religion is threatening destruction.  I'm promising self-defense.

Fuck you asshole, I was in my shop getting my Devil dogs squared away for the war we were sure was to follow.

And minus 500 for "Devil Dogs."  It was even gayer than when the platoon leader in Heartbreak Ridge said it.

And if I'm following the rest of your "logic," as soon as all the former Soviet satellites get cable and high-speed internet access, they'll start clamping down on the Muslim crazies?  You're a shitty Muslim for smoking all that dope. 

 

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at December 01, 2008 07:03 AM (nchur)

99

Flashoverride: I have a question regarding your reference to Muhammed. After his name you put (SAW). Is this something like the PBUH I often see, and if so can you tell me the specific meaning?

Posted by: gebrauchshund at December 01, 2008 07:04 AM (pY77a)

100 It means Slay All Westerners.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at December 01, 2008 07:05 AM (nchur)

101

Google up the Tulsa mosque.  Guy wrote an op-ed saying Islam needs to abjure violence. The mosque threw him out, some threatened him with violence and he could rejoin if he apologized.

Christians would, if they disagreed, leave the congregation, not sweat getting back in. If enough of them disagreed, they'd leave and start another congregation.

Not happening in Tulsa.  And those are moderate Muslims.

At the very least, moderate Muslims could leave mosques funded by Saudi Arabia pitching Wahhabism.  Why aren't those places empty?

An article in a Detroit paper some years back about a Muslim soldier and his tour in Iraq. He was so loyal to the US that his neighbors referred to him as an "Uncle Tom".

We need a whole lot more dimes being dropped.

Posted by: Richard Aubrey at December 01, 2008 07:06 AM (d0ih6)

102

SAW is "Sal Allah o alaihe Wasalam" = "may blessing of Allah and peace be upon him".  It's reserved for their grand poobah alone.

PBUH is used as well for other Muslim "prophets" like Jesus, Moses or Barack Obama.

I don't know what they say in Uzbekistan.  You'd have to ask flashoverride (WCGFH).

 

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at December 01, 2008 07:32 AM (nchur)

103

Well  Flash, I'm glad you are out there. Happy belated birthday, by the way. We could all probably use the occasional check on our blanket assertions via Muslims.

Posted by: kidney at December 01, 2008 08:33 AM (QZyY3)

104 SAW is "Sal Allah o alaihe Wasalam" = "may blessing of Allah and peace be upon him".  It's reserved for their grand poobah alone.

It would be easier to have a rational discussion with muslims if they would at least accept that by the rest of the frickin world's standards they DO worship the grand poobah, his book (not just the words in it), and that frickin moon rock and borg cube of theirs.

Posted by: Druid at December 01, 2008 09:54 AM (o/N4X)

105 Hey, cut Flash some slack willya. He seems to be a decent guy. This is America - he can be a Muslim, I can be Rastafarian or whatever. Works fine.
The problem seems to be that there's not much wiggle room for Flash. If he comes out as a Muslim people are going to ask him questions he can't answer. He'll be pelted with abuse just because hey, here's finally a Muslim guy who's not playing the victim card.
And boy is there a lot of pent-up anger.
Nor can he be an army of one amongst other Muslims, especially as he is a (recent) convert. 
But America needs more Muslims like Flash. Muslims who can take it and dish it out in equal manner and still be an American at the end of the day.
Keep up the good work, Flash. Hang in there, friend.

Posted by: WTF at December 01, 2008 10:01 AM (BOWCG)

106

Unfortunately, what is going to have to happen is that a clear majority of Muslims are going to have to speak up, sooner or later, and in no uncertain terms, to make their feelings known.

It's sad but true that until this does happen, a lot of people are going to paint your faith with a too-broad brush, like it or not, when it comes to the murder of innocents.

While I agree, Flash, that your small children shouldn't be negatively labelled, I also agree with the above. It simply is not enough to tell other people, "they are just a few" and critisising non-Muslims for ignorance is nothing more than putting the burden on the shoulders of those being targetted. I'm not saying it would be an easy thing for you (and/or others) to start a campaign, newsletter, movement, co-ordinate a shift to a non-Wahhabi-funded mosque or demonstrations against terror, etc., but for Muslims to continually refuse to do those sorts of things passes the message that you (or whoever) are not serious about condemnation of these atrocities. Sorry it sounds rough, but it seems to too many people that more energy is being spent on critisising "Westerners" and an abhorrantly small amount on those who kill innocents.

In short, if you don't want to be blamed, then you (and many others) need to do more to put a stop to that blaming. Getting all ticked off at people like those in here does absolutely nothing because most were once willing to believe the same thing Muslims try to preach now (religion of peace, etc.). Not anymore. The people you (and when I say "you" it's in the plural btw) need to be talking to are other Muslims who heretofore have been apathetic or unwilling to stand up. 

And I do realise, btw, that people (even in the US) can "get dead" for standing up. I'm sorry, but I don't entirely accept that as anything more than an excuse. (Yes, I know, it's very easy for me, safe, to say that.) Especially here in the US, people who are willing to watch others be killed while they themselves say little or nothing about it get no sympathy from me. People in some TWC (and others) I do feel a bit more sympathy for, but it's still limited by the belief that it has to start somewhere. I am very sorry that people might--are probably going to--die fighting this horror, but it has been allowed to fester and grow by good people who said nothing. Now the price will be much higher. I'm sure it's not a popular thing to say, but in my opinion it's the truth. 


Posted by: fireweed at December 01, 2008 10:13 AM (O6vGM)

107 Hey, cut Flash some slack willya. He seems to be a decent guy.

He does. And Muslims have been cut breaks--many breaks. It seems to me this is mainly what people are saying. They are tired of Muslims saying to non-Muslims: "Stop typecasting us" and saying little to nothing to Muslims who go around killing innocent people.

No one is stopping him being a Muslim @ WTF.

Posted by: fireweed at December 01, 2008 10:20 AM (O6vGM)

108 Flash & Pop:

I tend to view the "Ummah" (hey, not my concept) in much the same way the free world viewed Germans during the WWII and the period of pacification thereafter. I suspect that I'm not alone in this.

What I mean is that it was fairly commonly understood that not all National Socialists party members were crazed genocidal murderers who hated Jews, but most all of them still hailed their one true Fuhrer and marched in support alongside the greater body of their fellow National Socialists to the bitter street fighting end.

The fact is that while not all German[ic] people were card-carrying National Socialists,  many millions of ostensibly "good" Germans nevertheless felt compelled, for one party-controlled media reason or another, to take up arms against the untermenchen world (in much the same way Islamic extremists use the word kafir). They participated in building the Fuhrer's tanks, they synthesizing his oil, staffed his various camps, and - whether through fear, or complacency - otherwise sustained National Socialist means and ends. They allowed themselves to become 'dirty fucking Nazi Huns' by default. Default being delineated by the piles of bodies their chosen identity group had created.

Sound familiar?

Regardless of the fact that the vast majority of Germans were "good" 'kind" "loving" "innocent" people and that proportionally few of these "good" Germans were active members of the Nazi party; in the real world it eventually became quite necessary to burn all of Germany's cities to the ground and to - as discriminatingly as possible - crush German bones under our tank treads...And yes we had to then inculcate democracy into the body politic of the vanquished survivors who were lucky enough to not be snapped up and enslaved by that other amoral yet ultimately evil statist crocodile we spent even more good blood and treasure to defeat.

Not pretty, but pretty neccessary in the absence of some hippie rainbow unicorn freedom force from the fifth dimension coming to our collective rescue. After all, how many divisions do transdimensional unicorns have?

At the end of the day, good people like you (and I) need to speak out against and materially oppose the self-proclaimed stormtroopers of allah who happen to nearly universally identify themselves as the "truest" of the Muslims. Their nihilistic ideology that masquerades as [your] theology needs to be hounded off the face of the earth otherwise some-collective-one will eventually be forced to do it for us/you in ways that don't particularly discriminate between "good" Muslims of the kafir enlightenment and the scumbag terrorists who happen to loudly (as in Flash-Pop-BOOM!) share the same identity group (AKA: The Ummah).

Just saying...

Posted by: monkeyfan at December 01, 2008 10:32 AM (cEE8N)

109 Fair enough. The image of  the US has always been that of a country where decent men do not need to fear the evil ones. But is that true?
Suppose Flash wasn't a Muslim, but a biker. Now, we know most bikers are ordinary pople, but some of them are scum. Organized scum. How do you fight them without drawing attention to yourself and your family? What weekend-warrior wants to be a martyr, however good the fight? Especially as the guys on the other side really, really want to be martyrs.
But remember - the Italian-Americans fought the Mafia and won. I just wish the Muslims would do the same.
How? I don't know.
Flash might.
Here's the best thing said in this whole thread, courtesy of Flash: "By the way, I'll be teaching my son Arabic, and hopefully Urdu and Pasthun, and whatever other Iranian dialects I can.  He's not an Arab, but with his current bilingualism, by the time he's 18 he'll be a far greater asset to national security than I ever was. "
Attaboy.

Posted by: WTF at December 01, 2008 10:40 AM (BOWCG)

110 "He's not an Arab, but with his current bilingualism, by the time he's 18 he'll be a far greater asset to national security than I ever was."

Yes, well put.  That would be ideal if his son (who has a free will) manages to thread his way through the maze wherein many good Muslim children think that they are serving their religion by choosing a path that leads to killing and maiming kafir in the name of Allah.

As a Muslim one could start combating the extremists by not [essentially] jumping to the defense of the extremists at every perceived slight from within or without.

Posted by: monkeyfan at December 01, 2008 10:53 AM (cEE8N)

111 When Christians in America do bad shit, other American Christians haul their asses off to jail.

When Muslims in the Middle East do bad shit -- American Christians have to go in and haul their asses off to Cuba.

This is the problem.

When terrorist acts don't happen because Muslim states arrest the bastards planning them, terrorism won't be a problem.  That isn't happening, and the non-Muslim parts of the world are starting to wonder if the Muslim parts are really all the way on board with the "not murdering people" project.

Posted by: Trimegistus at December 01, 2008 11:08 AM (V7sUe)

112 As a Muslim one could start combating the extremists by not [essentially] jumping to the defense of the extremists at every perceived slight from within or without.

Agreed.

What weekend-warrior wants to be a martyr, however good the fight?

Probably none. And I would be the very LAST person to critisise anyone for wishing it didn't have to be. But it's not about mere want anymore. We all have to do something and if Muslims are not willing to speak up in a big way against terrorism perpetuated by other Muslims, then they forfeit the right to point fingers at anybody else who does.




Posted by: fireweed at December 01, 2008 12:29 PM (O6vGM)

113 Holy shit, what have I wrought?

Posted by: Vinnie at December 01, 2008 01:17 PM (idf83)

114 Holy shit, what have I wrought?

Something long overdue.  Wish we could get more Muslims here.  Muslims of all stripes.  I have a litany of questions that I would like to get answers on.

Posted by: rls at December 01, 2008 02:11 PM (k4h7p)

Posted by: andycanuck at December 02, 2008 06:51 AM (MJZdi)

116 Can someone please ban the poster named 'Nom de blog',I suspect he (she) may be French or at best performs french.Come on chaps,lets keep the cyber community clean.

Posted by: twat at December 14, 2008 12:28 PM (H1t5a)

117 Do not worry about it Flash,these comments may bring to mind the jack booted thugs of the National socialists party of the thirties but there are no ovens in Guantanamo.

Posted by: twat at December 14, 2008 02:59 PM (H1t5a)

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