October 31, 2015

The Hound of the Baskervilles Thread
— Ace

I haven't finished. I'm finishing tonight. But if you want to comment, please do so here; this thread will be bumped tomorrow afternoon (and I'll put up more in this post).

So far, I'm just in London, and Watson has only now departed for Devonshire. A commenter mentioned that Holmes isn't in the story much; I guess what's going to happen is that Watson -- that oaf! that clod! -- will be left at the Baskervilles estate to be scared by noises and sightings out on the moors, and will come to all sorts of clotwitted conclusions that ghosts are real and the Hound is the devil's hunting dog.

And then Holmes will show up in the last three chapters to say "Why no, my splendidly cretinous buffoon; you've got it all wrong. The Hound is really none other than ____."

Doyle has to do this this way, I think, because Heroism is the antithesis of Horror; a Hero is confident and in control, whereas the entire premise of Horror is that you are afraid and at the mercy of something you don't understand.

If Holmes were around for the Baskervilles section, he's be providing reassurances, and his courage and let's-get-after-them attitude would dispel the sense of fear.

So, I'm just on chapter six or so, and I imagine the poor, poor stupid semicretin Watson is about to have a time of it being scared by owls and such.

By the way, I have to say, I like the way Holmes is portrayed in modern depictions more than he's depicted here. In modern depictions, it is underscored that he is rude and kind of a jagoff. In Doyle, sometimes I don't know, are his constant insults of Watson supposed to be taken as rude, or just funny...?

I know in a previous Holmes story, Watson commented upon his rudeness, but Watson doesn't call it out here; he just takes Sherlock's constant insults as normal.

I don't know, am I as the reader supposed to laugh along with Sherlock at the dribbling imbecile Watson?

Because I'm not laughing; Holmes is just an asshole.

I know Holmes is an asshole; but does the story itself know? Were readers at the time supposed to understand that this guy is a total asshole to the only person in the world willing to be a friend to him?

So anyway, to be honest, I'm kind of happy to see the back of Holmes for a while. Let him show up in the last few chapters to do some Rude Explaining, but let me enjoy some time with people who aren't assholes for a while.

Just let me be at peace with ghosts and murderers, without Holmes' constant insults of his slow-witted moron chum.

I'm still reading. Sorry, I didn't get this done. I will bump this up again tomorrow, if anyone wants to talk about it then.

Posted by: Ace at 03:41 PM | Comments (452)
Post contains 494 words, total size 3 kb.

1 I read "The Hound of the Baskervilles" many, many years ago, but I haven't re-read it for this thread. I also read other Holmes stories back then. I didn't get the impression that Watson was a buffoon. I think that came about in the Basil Rathbone/Nigel Bruce movies.

Posted by: rickl at October 30, 2015 03:53 PM (sdi6R)

2 Oneth again?

Posted by: BackwardsBoy [/i][/s][/b][/u] at October 30, 2015 03:53 PM (LUgeY)

3 Shazbot! That'll teach me to read the post first.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy [/i][/s][/b][/u] at October 30, 2015 03:54 PM (LUgeY)

4 Oh, wow. A killer "First" that was actually on-topic.

Posted by: rickl at October 30, 2015 03:54 PM (sdi6R)

5 I didn't get the impression that Watson was a buffoon. I think that came about in the Basil Rathbone/Nigel Bruce movies.

Posted by: rickl at October 30, 2015 08:53 PM (sdi6R)

=======================================



Yes.  Exsctly.



Posted by: grammie winger, uff da at October 30, 2015 03:56 PM (dFi94)

6 Quick posting evening, huh? Rickl...you're right but I always picture Sherlock and Watson as Basil and Nigel

Posted by: Clarney at October 30, 2015 03:57 PM (caCx2)

7 Sorry.  That should read "exactly".  I have no idea what that other word is.

Posted by: grammie winger, uff da at October 30, 2015 03:57 PM (dFi94)

8 Dude, are you reading the same story I am. Asshole? Insults? Where are you getting that from?

Posted by: BackwardsBoy [/i][/s][/b][/u] at October 30, 2015 03:57 PM (LUgeY)

9 Ace, we in the same point of the story.

Posted by: @votermom at October 30, 2015 03:57 PM (cbfNE)

10 Web link for World Series, because I am a giver.



http://tinyurl.com/ovojg7g

Posted by: Nip Sip at October 30, 2015 03:58 PM (jJRIy)

11 I have the DVD of the 1968 BBC series starring Peter Cushing. HOUND is one of the better ones; if it's available online I'd recommend it. It's a fun watch.

Posted by: Doomed at October 30, 2015 03:59 PM (bGLSw)

12 Holmes is a bit like Sheldon Cooper, except for solving mysteries.

Posted by: @votermom at October 30, 2015 03:59 PM (cbfNE)

13 Holmes just has little use for silly social nuances. He and Watson's relationship is built on honesty. Watson is quite intelligent, Holmes is brilliant in a particular way. Please notice that in the stories Holmes trusts Watson implicitly for his best qualities.

Posted by: jorgxmckie at October 30, 2015 04:00 PM (290l2)

14 I was going to say the exact same thing votermom!!!

Posted by: Clarney at October 30, 2015 04:00 PM (caCx2)

15 Haven't read any of Doyle's Holmes stories for DECADES. I liked them back then and I liked this even more now! --- Ref Ace on Holmes v Watson. Yeah, it seemed like an abusive relationship. But consenting adults and all that. ----------- Isn't it amazing who advanced 1890s London is? You get 3 mail deliveries a day. Can write a mail asking for some obscure map and get the order filled AND DELIVERED in the same day. ------- Mire's aren't as lethal as the story suggests but it has to be for the story to work so that's ok. It's not a HUGE exaggeration. ------- Some people have complained that the HOUND should have attacked Baskerville after he died from the heart attack. I think that our villain specifically asked the dog trainers to train the dog chase B and not kill him. Because the crime works better if there's no physical evidence of the dog. Note that the dog didn't attack the guy wearing B's clothes either - just chased him. AND.... in the final attack, the dog chased (and knocked down?) the last B. ... but didn't bite. Trained that way.

Posted by: Comrade Arthur at October 30, 2015 04:00 PM (h53OH)

16 but let me enjoy some time with people who aren't assholes for a while. Uh-oh...

Posted by: The Horde at October 30, 2015 04:01 PM (9mTYi)

17 >>>Holmes is a bit like Sheldon Cooper, except for solving mysteries. Oh, I merely solve the mysteries of the universe and time, that's all.

Posted by: and that's DOCTOR Sheldon Cooper to you at October 30, 2015 04:01 PM (dciA+)

18 > Dude, are you reading the same story I am. Asshole? Insults? Where are you getting that from? Dude. It's in the first page. "you don't illuminate but you conduct luminense" (or something like that.

Posted by: Comrade Arthur at October 30, 2015 04:01 PM (h53OH)

19 Sorry, I'll pass on this.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy [/i][/s][/b][/u] at October 30, 2015 04:02 PM (LUgeY)

20 >>>Please notice that in the stories Holmes trusts Watson implicitly for his best qualities. which qualifies Holmes frequently specifies as Watson's ability to, through his stupid utterances, provoke Holmes into intelligent thoughts.

Posted by: ace at October 30, 2015 04:02 PM (dciA+)

21 Holmes seems perfectly polite to me, Ace.

Posted by: Dr Sheldon Cooper at October 30, 2015 04:03 PM (BrSVL)

22 Web link for World Series, because I am a giver. Funny seeing Pete Rose on the pre-game show, because with that little bowtie he looks like Joe Pesci.

Posted by: t-bird at October 30, 2015 04:03 PM (9mTYi)

23 What the heck did Megyn do to her hair? Why do women do that?

Also, Watson was a fighting doctor. Stud. I'm not sure he's supposed to be "stupid," so much as represent the average reader.

Holmes was autistic before autistic was cool.

Posted by: Bob's House of Flannel Shirts and Wallet Chains at October 30, 2015 04:03 PM (yxw0r)

24 Were readers at the time supposed to understand that this guy is a total asshole to the only person in the world willing to be a friend to him? Gilliga-a-an!!

Posted by: The Skipper at October 30, 2015 04:05 PM (9mTYi)

25 I read it years ago. I'm not going to reread it for the thread because I already know "the explanation". Mysteries aren't good books for rereading. It's good though. Another good Sherlock Holmes story is The Adventure of the Speckled Band.

Posted by: nerdygirl at October 30, 2015 04:05 PM (+lVUW)

26 The Holmes / Watson relationship is similar to the Poirot / Hastings relationship.  One partner is definitely superior to the other, however, the superior partner depends upon the lesser for information or nuanced communication that the superior is incapable of.

Posted by: grammie winger, uff da at October 30, 2015 04:05 PM (dFi94)

27 Watson: Eh, Holmes, I heard you're going back to school for a bit. Holmes: Yes, it's elementary, my dear Watson. Elementary.

Posted by: Obama, Paraphrased at October 30, 2015 04:05 PM (k9qR4)

28 Anyway, on the novel as a whole. ------- This is about as good as it gets for moody victorian action/adventure. I can't find ANYTHING wrong with it. I was a little disappointed not to have a death scene as the villain sank into the muck - but the entire story was from Watson's viewpoint ... and he didn't see it! ----------- BTW, one of the non-Doyle Holmes stories (Giant Rat of Sumatra) has the villain escape the mire and vow revenge on Holmes. And he's the main villain of that novel.

Posted by: Comrade Arthur at October 30, 2015 04:05 PM (h53OH)

29 how did i miss this?

Posted by: phoenixgirl, i was born a rebel at October 30, 2015 04:05 PM (0O7c5)

30 Hello? You haven't finished the story? BTW. You never see the backside of Mr. Holmes for very long.

Posted by: Tuna at October 30, 2015 04:06 PM (JSovD)

31 I agree with those who DISagree with Ace - I don't see Holmes as rude to Watson in this story. Now, there are some other stories where he's sarcastic and even Watson says that he's gone a bit too far. But not in this one. That quote about Watson not being "luminous" but inspiring others (i.e. Holmes) to insight is not rude, to my mind. What is to say? Watson's deductions are very far off the mark, as regards the stick. But his mistakes help Holmes zero in on the truth.

Posted by: Dr. Mabuse at October 30, 2015 04:07 PM (gjLib)

32 Do we have to put on pants for this?

Posted by: eman at October 30, 2015 04:07 PM (MQEz6)

33 We are supposed to overlook his assholie-ness due to his genius...or some BS belief that he really does not mean it.

Posted by: Animatronic Kasich Controller at October 30, 2015 04:08 PM (hVdx9)

34 Do we have to put on pants for this?

Posted by: eman at October 30, 2015 09:07 PM (MQEz6)

===================================



or tops ?

Posted by: grammie winger, uff da at October 30, 2015 04:08 PM (dFi94)

35 Political content - inspired by some Steyn musings. ------- did you notice that, in the entire novel, Holmes and company are never bothered by the govt? They see some prison guards searching for the killer - but their carriage isn't stopped and searched. They get LeStrade to make the arrest official... and that's it! At that time, 1890s, the avg. Brit was RARELY in contact with the govt. It just wasn't part of their daily lives. Carry handguns, carry them on a train. Normal stuff!

Posted by: Comrade Arthur at October 30, 2015 04:09 PM (h53OH)

36 Fuck you Holmes.

Posted by: Watson at October 30, 2015 04:09 PM (3va6W)

37 and fuck you Lone ranger

Posted by: Tonto at October 30, 2015 04:10 PM (3va6W)

38 the hound of the baskervilles.....starring basil rathbone as sherlock holmes and nigel bruce as dr. watson.......

Posted by: phoenixgirl, i was born a rebel at October 30, 2015 04:10 PM (0O7c5)

39 If Doyle treated Watson as a bumbler, then I think the case could be made that we're not supposed to identify with him, but I don't get that impression. (Although, as a kid, sharing his last name, I got pissed reading these.) But Watson is a war hero, a doctor, and an all around good guy, and Doyle shows us that, and that Holmes sees that. If he's dimwitted compared to Holmes, that's because EVERYONE is dimwitted compared to Holmes. He trusts Watson enough to tell him that. When Holmes reappears in this story, there's the exact sort of confrontation between them you'd expect, when Watson feels quite rudely used by Holmes. And Holmes defuses it by saying how proud he is of Watson's acumen. I =think= he's being honest. If not, he's quite the sociopath.

Posted by: moviegique at October 30, 2015 04:11 PM (m3P2y)

40 Ace, the butler did it.

Posted by: Animatronic Kasich Controller at October 30, 2015 04:11 PM (hVdx9)

41 I think your view of Holmes might be coloured a bit by movie versions, Ace. Watson is NOT stupid by any means. And Holmes isn't the mentally ill misfit Jeremy Brett portrayed. He's a *gentleman*, that's always made clear. He knows how to treat ladies and aristocrats, he's been presented to the Queen, he's not some Tourettes-afflicted madman who blurts out abuse whenever the whim seizes him.

Posted by: Dr. Mabuse at October 30, 2015 04:12 PM (gjLib)

42 Sherlock is popular because of the idea of virtuous, even transcendent, analytical power, not the writing ability of his creator, which is not impressive. Unfortunately that idea, so very attractive to the human mind, is silly.

Posted by: Caliban at October 30, 2015 04:12 PM (3GFMN)

43 Never Cry Shitwolf.

Posted by: Lincolntf at October 30, 2015 04:12 PM (2cS/G)

44 I think Sherlock knows he need Watson. He's loyal, dependable, and quite capable in a fight. Plus he serves as a bridge between Sherlock and the "common man".

Posted by: Animatronic Kasich Controller at October 30, 2015 04:13 PM (hVdx9)

45 #35 -- Comrade Arthur, Oh, MAN, did I notice that. They're apprehending a dangerous criminal at one point, and never think to contact the police until AFTER they've caught him. I mean, they don't catch him, but the thought process is, "Well, we'll capture him, and present him to the police." Heh.

Posted by: moviegique at October 30, 2015 04:13 PM (m3P2y)

46 >>>, he's not some Tourettes-afflicted madman who blurts out abuse whenever the whim seizes him. um but he does. i'm reading him doing so. just no one comments on it. they just accept it.

Posted by: ace at October 30, 2015 04:13 PM (dciA+)

47 If he's dimwitted compared to Holmes, that's because EVERYONE is dimwitted compared to Holmes. . Posted by: moviegique at October 30, 2015 09:11 PM (m3P2y) I beg to differ.....

Posted by: Moriarity at October 30, 2015 04:13 PM (qh617)

48 I finally know the difference between the skull of a negro and the skull of an esquimau.

Posted by: Mark1971 at October 30, 2015 04:13 PM (vaR50)

49 Great segment on True Monsters about the Norse berserkers.

Posted by: logprof at October 30, 2015 04:14 PM (vsbNu)

50 Wow, our beloved ewok is on a major roll today!!  Major bummer what he thinks about Holmes and Watson.  smh.  I love those stories, have read them many times.  How's the horde doing these days?  xoxo, love u, miss u.  :-)

Posted by: Peaches at October 30, 2015 04:14 PM (EgOr3)

51 I think you miss what I mean when I say I like how he's depicted now-- he's depicted ACCURATELY in the Sherlock series; it's just that in that series, people actually notice that he's an asshole. he says the same things in this book, but people don't say, "Hey-- asshole."

Posted by: ace at October 30, 2015 04:14 PM (dciA+)

52 Ahem.. If it wasn't for Watson, who would have preserved this history?

Posted by: JohnnyBoy at October 30, 2015 04:15 PM (KG0mU)

53 >>> I finally know the difference between the skull of a negro and the skull of an esquimau. that was a little weird, huh? And how he keeps returning to the idea of skull shapes indicating character? "Well you have a bit of the Gallic forehead, so you're by nature an embezzler"

Posted by: ace at October 30, 2015 04:15 PM (dciA+)

54 "And Holmes defuses it by saying how proud he is of Watson's acumen. I =think= he's being honest." Yes, I think he's being honest. And he knows that Watson's natural intelligence and skills will bring the best results. Would Holmes have gotten the key information out of Stapleton that he'd been a schoolteacher in the north? No, because he would have naturally been on his guard. Watson can elicit a confidence like this because he doesn't have Holmes's reputation.

Posted by: Dr. Mabuse at October 30, 2015 04:16 PM (gjLib)

55 okay, well, he's kind of a coke-whore . . . and very weird with the wimmen-folk but otherwise, well, he was much beloved in his time . . . which is way dif from our time.  plus, no Mets love?  lmao here.  might be the brewskis. 

Posted by: Peaches at October 30, 2015 04:16 PM (EgOr3)

56 Flame me all you want, but I really like the how Robert Downey plays him and whomever wrote him that way. He's no candy ass, but he definitely has his demons and NEEDS an anchor.

Posted by: Animatronic Kasich Controller at October 30, 2015 04:17 PM (hVdx9)

57 Ewok are sensitive creatures. The slightest inference can send them scurrying for the canopy.

Posted by: Garrett at October 30, 2015 04:17 PM (BrSVL)

58 My papa was a Sherlock Holmes fan. I have his (my dad, not Sherlock) deerstalker cap, lo these 40 years past.

Posted by: JohnnyBoy at October 30, 2015 04:17 PM (KG0mU)

59 @13 jorgxmckie IIRC Watson was a decorated British army surgeon who served in Afgahnistan. Bit of gambler and not particuallary a bloke to be trifled with.

Posted by: Buckeye Abroad at October 30, 2015 04:17 PM (YlEs8)

60 Watson was also a paen to Dr Bell... As was Holmes, in a different way...

Posted by: OG CELTIC AMERICAN at October 30, 2015 04:17 PM (4pg7z)

61 It occurs to me that Watson is at his most "bumbling" in Hound of the Baskervilles, precisely because, as Ace so wisely points out, he has to be for the plot to work. And since Hound was the first -- and thus the most iconic -- of the Rathbone/Bruce films, that kind of cemented the cement-headed version of Watson into the cement heads of the viewers forever. My personal "real" Sherlock Holmes will always be Jeremy Brett, and thus Edward Hardwicke is the "real" Watson.

Posted by: Trimegistus at October 30, 2015 04:18 PM (jb6xI)

62 here's a theory....that watson is holmes....in the sense that it's how sherlock speaks to himself in his head....but that wouldn't make for a good story...so watson was written in......another observation....holmes loves watson....and couldn't do what he does/did without him....watson is holmes ONLY friend.

Posted by: phoenixgirl, i was born a rebel at October 30, 2015 04:18 PM (0O7c5)

63 And Holmes isn't the mentally ill misfit Jeremy Brett portrayed. he's not some Tourettes-afflicted madman who blurts out abuse whenever the whim seizes him. Posted by: Dr. Mabuse at October 30, 2015 09:12 PM (gjLib) F**k off.

Posted by: Dr. House at October 30, 2015 04:18 PM (+lVUW)

64 46 >>>, he's not some Tourettes-afflicted madman who blurts out abuse whenever the whim seizes him. um but he does. i'm reading him doing so. just no one comments on it. they just accept it. Posted by: ace at October 30, 2015 09:13 PM (dciA+) Much of that is a reflection of the times. Remember back then some people WERE just plain considered better. There were Gentlemen, and Nobles.... and then the lesser classes, and it was quite all right to make less of them... The very concept of equality was missing from their worldview, and thus it shows in the writings of the time. A Doctor then was considered a tradesman... as were most Military Officers if not Nobility... and even War Heroes, if of the lower class... were treated like crap... It grates on modern sensibilities... on how we treat each other today... but this was written in a much different time.

Posted by: BB Wolf at October 30, 2015 04:19 PM (qh617)

65 Those who enjoy this book may like these two. Professor Moriarty: The Hound of the D'Urbervilles by Kim Newman. This is a dark comedy about the reminiscences of Moriarty's top henchman, Colonel.Sebastian "Basher" Moran. This is a series of short stories parodying various Holmes and, although the comedy is very dark, the author is wise enough to interrupt Moran before he can do anything too.diabolical. http://tinyurl.com/q9kv5c2 Sherlock Holmes Was Wrong by Pierre Bayard. The author Monday morning quarterbacks Holmes and comes up with an alternative explanation of the Baskerville case. http://tinyurl.com/pw57gd7

Posted by: The Great White Snark at October 30, 2015 04:19 PM (Nwg0u)

66 >>>I haven't finished. I'm finishing tonight.  No worries. Yo, don't sweat it acedog, my beautiful white brother. Ima let you finish!

Posted by: Kanye Kardashian at October 30, 2015 04:19 PM (jRs7b)

67 I think Watson's tolerance of Holmes' abuse is a key part of his character. It's mentioned countless times that nobody can stand to be in the presence of Holmes for long because he inevitably turns his detective eye on them. Watson accepts it, begrudgingly, because he's got his own heroic mission, to enable Sherlock.

Posted by: Lincolntf at October 30, 2015 04:19 PM (2cS/G)

68 I really like the how Robert Downey plays him

Robert Downey could make anyone look good.  He's that amazing.

Posted by: Peaches at October 30, 2015 04:19 PM (EgOr3)

69 Watson is not nearly the dumbass in the books that he's been in far too many portrayals (I'm looking at you, Nigel Bruce). He's a pretty ordinary English Gentleman next to a towering, inhuman intellect. Yeah, he looks bad by comparison but remember: Watson is writing the stories. And he fairly hero worships Holmes, so he's going to come out poorer by comparison. You can't really have Holmes show up too soon because he'd know what was happening too early. He's just that smart and that perceptive. But he's working behind the scenes and its a really effective gothic mystery until Holmes shows up and brings the hard light of clear logic.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at October 30, 2015 04:20 PM (39g3+)

70 Arthur Conan Doyle totally stole his idea from the House TV show.

Posted by: JohnnyBoy at October 30, 2015 04:20 PM (KG0mU)

71 63 And Holmes isn't the mentally ill misfit Jeremy Brett portrayed. he's not some Tourettes-afflicted madman who blurts out abuse whenever the whim seizes him. Posted by: Dr. Mabuse at October 30, 2015 09:12 PM (gjLib) F**k off. Posted by: Dr. House at October 30, 2015 09:18 PM (+lVUW) Hmmm.... and yet.... The 7% Solution? Which talked about Holmes drug habit?

Posted by: BB Wolf at October 30, 2015 04:20 PM (qh617)

72 I saw Skull of an Esquimau open for White Zombie at the Rialto in Tucson back in 97!

Posted by: Garrett at October 30, 2015 04:20 PM (BrSVL)

73 okay, well, he's kind of a coke-whore . . .


Posted by: Peaches at October 30, 2015 09:16 PM


Yeah. It's the coke. Holmes doesn't fuck around with the snow. He spikes it. Holmes was the Rick James of 19th Century London.

Posted by: otho at October 30, 2015 04:20 PM (EWg9n)

74 Watson!

... you're in my spot.

Posted by: Sherlock Cooper at October 30, 2015 04:20 PM (lqmAz)

75 68 I really like the how Robert Downey plays him

Robert Downey could make anyone look good. He's that amazing.

Posted by: Peaches at October 30, 2015 09:19 PM (EgOr3)


oh me too.....me too......

Posted by: phoenixgirl, i was born a rebel at October 30, 2015 04:20 PM (0O7c5)

76 I'm afraid I can't enjoy "The Speckled Band" because: 1) Snakes are pretty much deaf. You can't train them to come when you whistle. 2) Snakes don't drink milk, making it useless if you're trying to train them to come when you whistle, which they can't do anyway. 3) If a woman dies of snakebite and her stepfather has a fucking venomous snake in his room, you don't have to be Sherlock Fucking Holmes to maybe suspect something funny is going on. The police in that story slide right out of incompetence territory and straight into criminally negligent.

Posted by: Trimegistus at October 30, 2015 04:20 PM (jb6xI)

77 The skull business was the settled science of the day, phrenology and what-not. And while we mock it now, we also all routinely have images of what a thug looks like, what a pervert looks like, etc.

Posted by: moviegique at October 30, 2015 04:21 PM (m3P2y)

78 Also, Holmes isn't a jerk. He's a gentleman and a knight; he just is effectively a smart guy living in a world if morons and sometimes he has a hard time having perspective. He reserves his mockery for the bumbling cops most of the time, not Watson. Can't let the TV shows and films inform your view of the man.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at October 30, 2015 04:21 PM (39g3+)

79 Read the book decades ago. I enjoyed it. Not sure I would enjoy it now. Sherlock was a bit of a snot. I've been to Devonshire. Beautiful part of the UK (southwest). Dartmoor NP is there. Didn't see any hounds. Lots of sheep, but no hounds.

Posted by: Puddleglum at October 30, 2015 04:21 PM (nNNi5)

80 One does not always view one's co-worker as equal in brilliance.  However, one can recognize qualities in one's co-worker that they themselves do not possess, and which can be useful to the ultimate goal.  I see Holmes and Watson as co-workers, one in the lead and one who follows, each one fulfilling his role.



 Is a boss ever arrogant and demanding?  Yep.  Do co-workers put up with it?  Yup.  Can two people of unequal mental acuity collaborate together despite their differences.  Yup again.




Watson is the Everyman.  Holmes is the Superman.  The tale requires both.


Posted by: grammie winger, uff da at October 30, 2015 04:22 PM (dFi94)

81 I'm afraid I can't enjoy "The Speckled Band" because: Yeah, that's why I don't consider it a particularly great story. It has some nice gothic horror elements but I think Copper Beeches actually is a more effective spooky tale that builds and builds and there is genuine fear and a threat to Holmes and Watson.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at October 30, 2015 04:23 PM (39g3+)

82 I'll have to go back and reread the stories to see if I get this overall impression of Holmes as abusive. I don't recall him that way. What I recall Watson griping about much more was Holmes's bizarre habits: the heavy smoking (that occurs in Hound as well), the screeching violin, coming and going at all hours, flopping on a couch and not moving for a couple of days, target practice with his revolver indoors. These bother him much more than Holmes's verbal sparring, some of which is really just boasting about his own abilities rather than scoffing at Watson's.

Posted by: Dr. Mabuse at October 30, 2015 04:23 PM (gjLib)

83 Are there really neolithic stone huts still standing on the moors of England with enough structure to provide shelter?

Posted by: Mark1971 at October 30, 2015 04:23 PM (vaR50)

84 I haven't read any ACD before this, but I am a big Poe and Christie fan. I see Watson as a cog in the wheel. He is necessary to allow the author to fill the pages with his observations, and to allow Holmes to lecture and point toward solutions.


In this, it seems like his character has to be observant, but a little dense. And Holmes has to be infallible. That is the formula.

But what surprised me the most is that while Holmes is a great character, it really is a lousy "mystery" story.  It is a good book, just not a good mystery.

Posted by: Gentlemen, this is democracy manifest at October 30, 2015 04:24 PM (LWu6U)

85 53 >>> I finally know the difference between the skull of a negro and the skull of an esquimau. that was a little weird, huh? And how he keeps returning to the idea of skull shapes indicating character? "Well you have a bit of the Gallic forehead, so you're by nature an embezzler" Posted by: ace at October 30, 2015 09:15 PM (dciA+) "Phrenology" was A Thing in the 19th Century.

Posted by: rickl at October 30, 2015 04:24 PM (sdi6R)

86 I really like the how Robert Downey plays him I don't. I love the acting and he's fun, but he's not Holmes. He's not a dirtbag scummy guy with unshaven beard. He's a modern knight, a gentleman who is very patient and kind to women and vicious to bad guys. Jeremy Brett's Holmes was the closest to the guy in the books.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at October 30, 2015 04:24 PM (39g3+)

87 OT but TCM is showing the Vincent Price version of House of Wax tomorrow. Great classic scary flick. Baskerville was my least fave Sherlock stories. Ronald Howard played Sherlock in a fantastically grainy b&w series in 1954. PBS used to air it back in the day. Will never get better than that, imo.

Posted by: tdpwells at October 30, 2015 04:24 PM (evKax)

88 53 >>> I finally know the difference between the skull of a negro and the skull of an esquimau. that was a little weird, huh? And how he keeps returning to the idea of skull shapes indicating character? "Well you have a bit of the Gallic forehead, so you're by nature an embezzler" Posted by: ace at October 30, 2015 09:15 PM (dciA+) I've been reading Agatha Christie books lately. I love them, but early twentieth century British attitudes toward Jews, natives (non-whites), and colonials are not nice.

Posted by: nerdygirl at October 30, 2015 04:24 PM (+lVUW)

89 the dog that didn't poop

Posted by: Jack Tripper at October 30, 2015 04:25 PM (GdFQh)

90 I always saw Holmes' treatment of Watson as an aspect of that time as opposed to the more delicate sensibilities lately. It was also a story device. But the important thing is Holmes trusts and relies on Watson absolutely. Hound was written about 8 years after Doyle killed off Holmes and I think he took the opportunity to emphasize Watson's qualities of bravery, determination, action and observation.

Posted by: JTB at October 30, 2015 04:25 PM (FvdPb)

91 Watson always rsn to the sound of the guns, jumped and shot blighters, and tried to keep Holmes on the reservation...

Posted by: OG CELTIC AMERICAN at October 30, 2015 04:25 PM (4pg7z)

92 Oh my darlin'. Oh my darlin'. Oh my darlin' Clementine.

Posted by: Hound of the Huckleberries at October 30, 2015 04:25 PM (FkBIv)

93 Speaking of topical science, eugenics is the other hot ticket, and remains so until Hitler starts taking it to its logical end. That whole "breeding will out" thing, people are talking about is just all over the literature of the day. It's kind of a trip to read the Tarzan books because they're built on this notion, but by the end of ERB's life, it's post-WWII, and those notions don't fly any more. Not surprising, right? Eugenics flatters the notion that some people really ARE just better than others.

Posted by: moviegique at October 30, 2015 04:25 PM (m3P2y)

94 Oh shit, Megan has cut her hair.   She must have gotten into the Junior League.


Look awful.

Posted by: Nip Sip at October 30, 2015 04:26 PM (jJRIy)

95 Hmmm.... and yet.... The 7% Solution? Which talked about Holmes drug habit? Posted by: BB Wolf at October 30, 2015 09:20 PM That wasn't a Doyle story - it doesn't count. But thanks for mentioning it, because the drug use was another habit of Holmes's that Watson REALLY disapproved of and lectured him about. Holmes didn't really defend himself all that much, either; he knew Watson was right.

Posted by: Dr. Mabuse at October 30, 2015 04:26 PM (gjLib)

96 that was a little weird, huh? And how he keeps returning to the idea of skull shapes indicating character? Phrenology was kind of big at the time and unfortunately for all his strengths and intelligence, Doyle was a bit of a sucker for that kind of thing. It comes up a lot in his stories.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at October 30, 2015 04:26 PM (39g3+)

97 92 Oh my darlin'. Oh my darlin'. Oh my darlin' Clementine. Posted by: Hound of the Huckleberries at October 30, 2015 09:25 PM (FkBIv) /Golf clap... Well played.....

Posted by: BB Wolf at October 30, 2015 04:26 PM (qh617)

98 >> Are there really neolithic stone huts still standing on the moors of England with enough structure to provide shelter?

This really bothered me. I even googled.
These buildings are a few stones on the ground in a circle. My guess is they were buried stones until they were dug up.

I cant keep my 25 year old roof to keep me dry, and here we have millenia roofs?
Why would ACD say this?

This bothered me a lot. I have no problem with fantasy, but I hate historical fantasy.

Posted by: Gentlemen, this is democracy manifest at October 30, 2015 04:27 PM (LWu6U)

99 85 "Phrenology" was A Thing in the 19th Century. Posted by: rickl at October 30, 2015 09:24 PM (sdi6R) And the science was settled.

Posted by: rickl at October 30, 2015 04:27 PM (sdi6R)

100 OT:  There's an old episode of Forensic Files on TV right now, and Trey Gowdy is the prosecutor.

Posted by: IrishEi at October 30, 2015 04:27 PM (E6RIJ)

101 drug use was another habit of Holmes's that Watson REALLY disapproved of and lectured him about. Holmes didn't really defend himself all that much, either; he knew Watson was right. He also only used it a couple times and dumped the habit after a while. It never made sense anyway, coke makes you more energetic and frantic, and he was trying to calm his berserk brain

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at October 30, 2015 04:27 PM (39g3+)

102 Posted by: Gentlemen, this is democracy manifest at October 30, 2015 09:27 PM

I figured this was stretching the truth.

Posted by: Mark1971 at October 30, 2015 04:28 PM (vaR50)

103 Phrenology flourished well into the 20th century. It was finally diminished by a few "beautiful white psychopathic serial killers" that came along in the 20s and 30s, along with mass media.

Posted by: JohnnyBoy at October 30, 2015 04:28 PM (KG0mU)

104 The Tattooed Man, that's a good one.

Posted by: Lincolntf at October 30, 2015 04:28 PM (2cS/G)

105 Ronald Howard played Sherlock in a fantastically grainy b&w series in 1954. Sherlock Opie.

Posted by: Mixed up at October 30, 2015 04:29 PM (FkBIv)

106 Eugenics flatters the notion that some people really ARE just better than others. Well some people are, just not in the sense of genetics the way Hitler etc thought. Its way more complicated and humans aren't merely what their genes and cells are.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at October 30, 2015 04:29 PM (39g3+)

107 "Phrenology" was A Thing in the 19th Century.



Posted by: rickl at October 30, 2015 09:24 PM



You would say that. You've got the brain pan of a carriage tilter.

Posted by: montgomery burns at October 30, 2015 04:30 PM (EWg9n)

108 Does Ace know that House M.D. was a modern re-make of Sherlock Holmes? Still one of my favorite shows of all time.

Posted by: logprof at October 30, 2015 04:30 PM (vsbNu)

109 86 I really like the how Robert Downey plays him

I don't. I love the acting and he's fun, but he's not Holmes. He's not a dirtbag scummy guy with unshaven beard. He's a modern knight, a gentleman who is very patient and kind to women and vicious to bad guys.

Jeremy Brett's Holmes was the closest to the guy in the books.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at October 30, 2015 09:24 PM (39g3+)

*************

Curious. Makes me think of the way Bond is shown in movies. The book Bond is a stone-cold, merciless killer. So a reversal, I guess.

Posted by: Bob's House of Flannel Shirts and Wallet Chains at October 30, 2015 04:30 PM (yxw0r)

110 And the science was settled.

Posted by: rickl at October 30, 2015 09:27 PM (sdi6R)

falling all about laughing . . . spot on, old chap!

Posted by: Peaches at October 30, 2015 04:30 PM (EgOr3)

111 I also read other Holmes stories back then. I didn't get the impression that Watson was a buffoon. I think that came about in the Basil Rathbone/Nigel Bruce movies. Posted by: rickl at October 30, 2015 08:53 PM (sdi6R) Others have already commented on this, but I want to concur. Ace's description of Holmes and the relationship between the two characters makes it seem as if he has never actually read ANY of the stories. Holmes respected Watson, and relied upon him. The only thing I can remember Holmes teasing Watson about was his writing. Remember, these events are supposedly chronicled by Watson, and being read (and reviewed) by Holmes in "real time". IMHO, the only portrayal of Holmes and Watson that is faithful to the original conception is the one done by Jeremy Brett (and his two Watsons) back in the 80's and 90's of the last century. Brett was very particular about the accuracy of the productions, and carried a complete annotated set (same one that I have, I think) with him at all times while filming.

Posted by: HTL at October 30, 2015 04:30 PM (JsSFV)

112 I'll have to go back and reread the stories to see if I get this overall impression of Holmes as abusive. I don't recall him that way. - Read the first book, A Study in Scarlet, in which Watson is introduced to Holmes. It's clear Holmes has certain asshole-like qualities and is not entirely mentally and emotionally healthy.

Posted by: The Great White Snark at October 30, 2015 04:31 PM (Nwg0u)

113 No poo for you, Sherlock!

Posted by: Feces Nazi at October 30, 2015 04:31 PM (jRs7b)

114 107 "Phrenology" was A Thing in the 19th Century. Posted by: rickl at October 30, 2015 09:24 PM You would say that. You've got the brain pan of a carriage tilter. Posted by: montgomery burns at October 30, 2015 09:30 PM (EWg9n) I can tell just by looking, you are a Mule Skinner...

Posted by: Gen. Custer to Little Big Man at October 30, 2015 04:31 PM (qh617)

115 I thought the first show of the first season of Sherlock from the BBC did a brilliant job of showing Watson's character and importance to Holmes. Watson is absolutely, unshakably courageous. He runs toward danger, he doesn't care for quiet times. Holmes is not incapable in a fight, but he's not the warrior Watson is. Of course from show 2 on they turned him back into a fumbling retard but they started out nicely.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at October 30, 2015 04:32 PM (39g3+)

116 As I was reading the book, I started thinking about the attitude to Science in it. I think most people today think of Holmes as this super-logical, thinking machine. The consummate Man of Science. But I don't think that's really the way Doyle portrayed him. Holmes sees science as a *tool* for doing his work. He isn't committed to it as a measurement of Truth. In fact, the "pure" scientist in this story is Stapleton. He's a botanist, even has a butterfly or two named after him. Yet he's the villain, and I think his scientist's mind makes him even more dangerous than a brute like the murderer Selden. In short, I think Holmes would have no time at all for something like Global Warming. He didn't even know that the Earth revolves around the Sun, after all! If it wasn't useful for solving crimes, he had no interest in it.

Posted by: Dr. Mabuse at October 30, 2015 04:32 PM (gjLib)

117 101 -- That said, cocaine, at the time, was a miracle drug, used for everything that ails you. Sort of like the late '70s. (At least I remember Time/Life/People/Whatever with cover stories about how great cocaine was.) All the best people were using it.

Posted by: moviegique at October 30, 2015 04:32 PM (m3P2y)

118 Another thing that bothered me was the dealio with the boots. So this "most formidable" adversary watched the guy spend a day shopping, and then he stole the wrong boots?

To me, it was too much of a big red flag telling the reader that the guy wanted the scent. 

I wont go on since maybe some are still in London with Ace, but I think information was not metered out in the best way there.

Posted by: Gentlemen, this is democracy manifest at October 30, 2015 04:33 PM (LWu6U)

119 Until I read the complete collection of stories, I hadn't realized how absolutely perfect Nigel Bruce played the movie character.

Posted by: OrsonSnow at October 30, 2015 04:33 PM (G5chr)

120 Here's a theory: In every story, Holmes was the mastermind murderer who perfectly framed the arrested parties. I'm sure that is not an original thought. There is probably a magazine dedicated to that very hypothesis.

Posted by: JohnnyBoy at October 30, 2015 04:33 PM (KG0mU)

121 Does Ace know that House M.D. was a modern re-make of Sherlock Holmes? He was better as Lord Flashheart in Blackadder

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at October 30, 2015 04:34 PM (39g3+)

122 > 53 >>> I finally know the difference between the skull of a negro and the skull of an esquimau. that was a little weird, huh? And how he keeps returning to the idea of skull shapes indicating character? "Well you have a bit of the Gallic forehead, so you're by nature an embezzler" Posted by: ace --------- That was #Science! back in the day. Accepted by many at least.

Posted by: Comrade Arthur at October 30, 2015 04:34 PM (h53OH)

123 By the way: the World Series is going great. Pitching was a bit rocky but its settling down some now.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at October 30, 2015 04:35 PM (39g3+)

124 I saw a little winged person with antennae, flitting through my garden. It resembled Lindsey Graham.

Posted by: Arthur Conan Doyle at October 30, 2015 04:35 PM (jRs7b)

125 He was better as Lord Flashheart in Blackadder

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at October 30, 2015 09:34 PM (39g3+)

=================================



He was best as Bertie Wooster.



Posted by: grammie winger, uff da at October 30, 2015 04:35 PM (dFi94)

126 <i>56 Flame me all you want, but I really like the how Robert Downey plays him and whomever wrote him that way.

He's no candy ass, but he definitely has his demons and NEEDS an anchor.</i>

And THIS is why I enjoy the most recent Sherlock movies more than the classic ones - but also because Watson is a fighting badass always just on this side of giving up. The RD movies are done just so that they make it seem like the "behind-the-scenes" take that Watson edited out in order to appeal to a mass audience. The only thing I like about the most recent BBC run of Sherlock is how awesome Watson is - I could care less about the Cummerbund fellow.

As for Watson being the driving force of "Hound," it makes sense, much in the same way the protagonist of "The Fall of the House of Usher" was at wits end dealing with what was going on around him - it's freakin' scary that way, AND you sympathize with the narrator. I'd much rather spend a fortnight in a "haunted" house with Watson than Sherlock.

Posted by: Where's my prezzy? at October 30, 2015 04:36 PM (TpqJt)

127 OT but TCM is showing the Vincent Price version of House of Wax tomorrow. Great classic scary flick. I think they're also showing "The Picture of Dorian Gray".

Posted by: nerdygirl at October 30, 2015 04:36 PM (+lVUW)

128 116 -- He didn't care if the earth revolved around the sun, or the sun around the earth, per this story. I'd say you have it.

Posted by: moviegique at October 30, 2015 04:36 PM (m3P2y)

129 Ah, feck be so long since I've de-lurked that I forgot how tags work here...

Posted by: Where's my prezzy? at October 30, 2015 04:36 PM (TpqJt)

130 this novel was mostly free of Holmes' addiction problems. Smoked a lot of tobacco, drank a lot of coffee. He wasn't bored during this novel so didn't resort to Cocaine.

Posted by: Comrade Arthur at October 30, 2015 04:36 PM (h53OH)

131 Tolkein fans talk and complain about the changes Jackson did to his works.  What theater and cinema did to Dr. Watson's friend the detective is just as bad.  From the type of hat and pipe to the abuse heaped upon Watson all arise from other writers or even actors changing up Doyle's world.

Martin Scorsese documentary on Val Lewton is playing on TCM now.  Then more Val Lewton movies follow: The Seventh Victim, The Body Snatcher, and Isle of the Dead.  Then Saturday morning is the movie Ace mentioned scaring him - Dementia 13.

Posted by: Anna Puma at October 30, 2015 04:36 PM (q/kuR)

132 Are we really supposed to take the phrenology in the story seriously? It's Dr. Mortimer's hobby, not Holmes's, and I think we're supposed to consider it a bit of a joke. Mortimer is a nice guy, but even before he meets him, Holmes has him pegged as a bit of a dreamer.

Posted by: Dr. Mabuse at October 30, 2015 04:36 PM (gjLib)

133 121 Actually, he was the absolute perfect Bertie Wooster in " Wooster and Jeeves"

Posted by: Tuna at October 30, 2015 04:37 PM (JSovD)

134 There was a player, Raoul somebody, who just made his major league debut in the World Series. Alas, he struck out.

Posted by: rickl at October 30, 2015 04:37 PM (sdi6R)

135 Rik Mayall was Lord Flasheart in II. Laurie was in III as King George III and IV as Capt. George.

Posted by: Arthur Conan Doyle at October 30, 2015 04:37 PM (jRs7b)

136 I read it a couple of weeks ago on a Sunday (I've read it before)...been a while since I just read a book...Hound was a good choice. I felt sorry for the poor pony and the dog (doctor Mortimer's, not the Hound) that sank in the quicksand! :-( It's understood in Sherlock Holmes mysteries that Watson represents us and Sherlock is on another plane of intellect...I always found it sort of comforting that there was this super-sleuth that could be appealed to when all else fails.

Posted by: CanaDave at October 30, 2015 04:38 PM (hZmU4)

137 Haha. Downey Jr. played Holmes as if someone had reincarnated Christopher Lloyd and given him a cocaine enema before each scene. Which is probably what Doyle would have wanted, honestly.

Posted by: Obama, Paraphrased at October 30, 2015 04:38 PM (k9qR4)

138 "He was better as Lord Flashheart in Blackadder"



That was Rik Mayall. Hugh Laurie did George in BA3 and a couple of characters in BA2.. Hugo the indestructible? and one of blackadder's drinking pals in the "Money" episode, IIRC.

Posted by: otho at October 30, 2015 04:40 PM (EWg9n)

139 Eugenics flatters the notion that some people really ARE just better than others. Posted by: moviegique at October 30, 2015 09:25 PM (m3P2y) Well, aren't we? You think it's a coincidence we build most of our abortion mills in black neighborhoods?

Posted by: Margaret Sanger at October 30, 2015 04:40 PM (+lVUW)

140 I didn't find Holmes's absence through much of the story all that troubling. Maybe it's because, although the stories are ABOUT Holmes, the person we really know best is Watson. We're always hearing HIS voice when we're reading about Holmes, so he's a very familiar companion.

Posted by: Dr. Mabuse at October 30, 2015 04:40 PM (gjLib)

141 My favorite of the Holmes tales and I believe the only "monster story" thus appropriate for Halloween.

Posted by: SGT York at October 30, 2015 04:40 PM (OlBc3)

142 Actually, he was the absolute perfect Bertie Wooster in " Wooster and Jeeves"

Posted by: Tuna at October 30, 2015 09:37 PM (JSovD)

=========================================



Whenever I just really really need to laugh, I either watch an episode of Jeeves and Wooster, or Arrested Development. 



Posted by: grammie winger, uff da at October 30, 2015 04:41 PM (dFi94)

143 CanaDave - I felt sorry for the poor pony and the dog (doctor Mortimer's, not the Hound) that sank in the quicksand! :-( It's even worse than that (don't read this, Ace, I don't want to spoil it for you). The pony sank in the quicksand, but the little dog was fed to the horrible Hound! They found its mutilated skeleton at the end.

Posted by: Dr. Mabuse at October 30, 2015 04:42 PM (gjLib)

144 Vocabulary test: Who remembers the new word we learned in "The Fall of the House of Usher"? Answer: Tarn. What new words have we learned in "Hound of the Baskervilles"? So far, "goyle" and "tor".

Posted by: Dr. Mabuse at October 30, 2015 04:44 PM (gjLib)

145

Watson: Holmes, my dear man.  What sort of canal is non-traversable by boat?

Holmes: Alimentary, my dear Watson, alimentary!

Posted by: Darth Randall at October 30, 2015 04:44 PM (KlVdw)

146 The first Sherlock with Downey made the clues very, extremely, obvious. The sequel did the exact opposite.

Posted by: Animatronic Kasich Controller at October 30, 2015 04:45 PM (hVdx9)

147 That said, cocaine, at the time, was a miracle drug, used for everything that ails you. Sort of like the late '70s. (At least I remember Time/Life/People/Whatever with cover stories about how great cocaine was.) All the best people were using it. Posted by: moviegique at October 30, 2015 09:32 PM (m3P2y) I remember people in the seventies describing coke as the perfect recreation drug because it supposedly wasn't addictive.

Posted by: nerdygirl at October 30, 2015 04:46 PM (+lVUW)

148 132 -- That's an interesting point. I'd have to reread more of the stories and more ACD to get a real sense of whether he was into phrenology. But it was pretty much "Common Wisdom". 140 -- Didn't care about Holmes being in the story, myself. Though, the first time I read it, I remember getting a rush out of his sudden reappearance. I was struck by how breezy this tale was. Much of the popular writing at this time is so good, so light, so easy to read, with this implicit contract that it's meant to entertain, perhaps even uplift in its own way. I dread reading modern "literature" because I never know what the author's purpose is. It can't be something as simple as telling a good story. There's gotta be a message, there's gotta be meta-cleverness, there's gotta be social awareness. It's such a drag.

Posted by: moviegique at October 30, 2015 04:46 PM (m3P2y)

149 If the Holmes character was too abusive towards Watson I don't think the stories would have been so popular. Hound was first published as a serial in the Strand Magazine over several months. It also gave the magazine its highest circulation. I've read that people lined up outside the Strand offices to get the latest issue to see what happens next. Now people line up to get the latest Apple crap and pay big bucks for the 'privilege'.

Posted by: JTB at October 30, 2015 04:46 PM (FvdPb)

150 They found its mutilated skeleton at the end. That's true!...I forgot that part...poor dog!

Posted by: CanaDave at October 30, 2015 04:47 PM (hZmU4)

151 147 -- YES! I swear to God, I remember seeing a major glossy magazine with that as the byline. (Cocaine -- why it's so awesome and non-addictive.)

Posted by: moviegique at October 30, 2015 04:47 PM (m3P2y)

152 He was better as Lord Flashheart in Blackadder Posted by: Christopher Taylor at October 30, 2015 09:34 PM (39g3+) 3 words: Wooster and Jeeves

Posted by: nerdygirl at October 30, 2015 04:48 PM (+lVUW)

153 Laurie was in III as King George III and IV as Capt. George. You're right, but he was great anyway And yeah, he's perfect for Wooster. Like Hugh Frasier playing Captain Hastings in the Poirot shows, he was born for the part. Very odd watching him play House for me. As for the hat: Holmes only wore a deerstalker once in the books. He had no costume or particular apparel, other than his pipe and magnifying glass.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at October 30, 2015 04:48 PM (39g3+)

154 I remember people in the seventies describing coke as the perfect recreation drug because it supposedly wasn't addictive.

Posted by: nerdygirl at October 30, 2015 09:46 PM (+lVUW)

======================================



Phil Donahue did a whole show on it.  Non-addictive.

Posted by: grammie winger, uff da at October 30, 2015 04:49 PM (dFi94)

155 I dread reading modern "literature" because I never know what the author's purpose is. Yeah I know what you mean. Nobody can just tell a story any more, nobody can just write for writing. It always has to be pushing a purpose or agenda. It creeps in everywhere.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at October 30, 2015 04:49 PM (39g3+)

156 Here's what I learned from "Hound of the Baskervilles": No matter how much 19th century literature I read, I cannot keep the following straight: fen marsh swamp moor bog etc I have decided I will locate these things in the real world and visit them at least until I can tell a gorse from a tor.

Posted by: moviegique at October 30, 2015 04:50 PM (m3P2y)

157 140 Also, he knows Watson can handle the potentially dangerous situation at Baskerville Hall and will feed him the on the ground info that he needs to do his detecting off center stage.

Posted by: Tuna at October 30, 2015 04:50 PM (JSovD)

158 I dread reading modern "literature" because I never know what the author's purpose is. It can't be something as simple as telling a good story. Agree 110%...TV and movies too, there's always some ulterior motive now, trying to make us feel bad or brainwash us...they suck. Reading Sherlock Holmes or Nero Wolfe is a relief because you can give your filter a rest :-)

Posted by: CanaDave at October 30, 2015 04:51 PM (hZmU4)

159 One of the things I remember about this story is that, no matter how terrified he was, Watson was *always* willing to put himself between danger and an intended victim, even if he couldn't comprehend the terror he was facing. Commenters who call Sherlock a "knight" are probably thinking of him in the Victorian, gentrified use of the word and aren't giving Watson credit as the true, chivalric, and Romantic Knight his character is. More than a few times in the canon, he's there to rebuke Holmes when the Detective crosses the line.

Posted by: Where's my prezzy? at October 30, 2015 04:53 PM (TpqJt)

160 I remember people in the seventies describing coke as the perfect recreation drug because it supposedly wasn't addictive. Posted by: nerdygirl at October 30, 2015 09:46 PM (+lVUW) ***** It cost a coupla friends of mine (no, really!) friends, houses and marriages until they got their shit straight. I did it a few times, and always wanted endless MOAR, right then. That was my cluebat to leave that shit alone.

Posted by: ManWithNoParty [/i] [/s] [/b] at October 30, 2015 04:55 PM (gdiBW)

161 I dread reading modern "literature" because I never know what the author's purpose is. It can't be something as simple as telling a good story. There's gotta be a message, there's gotta be meta-cleverness, there's gotta be social awareness. It's such a drag.

Posted by: moviegique at October 30, 2015 09:46 PM (m3P2y)

=============================================



That's one reason that when I find an author I like, I generally read everything they've written.  Since (for fiction) I tend to read mystery/thrillers, it's not too hard to do.  Usually a good mystery writer will have several books out there.  Same for thrillers.  For instance, I know Vince Flynn is going to tell a good story, so I can go through his whole list.

Posted by: grammie winger, uff da at October 30, 2015 04:55 PM (dFi94)

162 156 The Great Grimpen Mire. Just from the sound of it you know unpleasant things happen there.

Posted by: Tuna at October 30, 2015 04:55 PM (JSovD)

163 I have decided I will locate these things in the real world and visit them at least until I can tell a gorse from a tor. Posted by: moviegique at October 30, 2015 09:50 PM (m3P2y) Careful where you step.

Posted by: That Pony at October 30, 2015 04:56 PM (+lVUW)

164 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPsOpJGBRNc

Posted by: rickl at October 30, 2015 04:56 PM (sdi6R)

165 Isn't this really the story of Paul Singer buying, um backing Rubio? I hear Jeb is horrified.

Posted by: Meremortal at October 30, 2015 04:56 PM (3myMJ)

166 I have decided I will locate these things in the real world and visit them at least until I can tell a gorse from a tor.
Posted by: moviegique at October 30, 2015 09:50 PM (m3P2y)


To speed your learning, I suggest rolling in both of them to start.

Posted by: Kindltot at October 30, 2015 04:58 PM (3pRHP)

167 How many of you remember the movies with the other brother John Holmes.

Posted by: CSMBigBird at October 30, 2015 04:58 PM (xInes)

168 The Great Grimpen Mire. Just from the sound of it you know unpleasant things happen there. The English have a real gift at naming things.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at October 30, 2015 04:58 PM (39g3+)

169 I was struck by how breezy this tale was. Much of the popular writing at this time is so good, so light, so easy to read, with this implicit contract that it's meant to entertain, perhaps even uplift in its own way. I dread reading modern "literature" because I never know what the author's purpose is. It can't be something as simple as telling a good story. There's gotta be a message, there's gotta be meta-cleverness, there's gotta be social awareness. It's such a drag. Posted by: moviegique at October 30, 2015 09:46 PM You're so right about that! It was the first thing I noticed, when I was about 3 chapters into the story: What a good read this is! Just a really good yarn. One chapter led on to another, and although this was Victorian literature, it was effortless. Not like Dickens, with his involved sentences and clonking sentimentality and moralizing. This is the sort of thing you could give a boy who doesn't really like to read, and not worry that he'd be lost in antiquated phraseology or tired out by complicated sentence construction. Yet it's well-made and, I think, improving in its way.

Posted by: Dr. Mabuse at October 30, 2015 04:58 PM (gjLib)

170 How many of you remember the movies with the other brother John Holmes.

Posted by: CSMBigBird at October 30, 2015 09:58 PM (xInes)

===============================



I do not.  Well huh.

Posted by: grammie winger, uff da at October 30, 2015 04:59 PM (dFi94)

171 Beware the Grimpen Whore... Of you hear her call, "Huuuuummmmmaaa" RUN!

Posted by: OG CELTIC AMERICAN at October 30, 2015 04:59 PM (4pg7z)

172 Ace,
Didn't get the chance to recommend some good scary movies in that thread, so forgive me for going off topic here. This was my double feature last night:

"The Babadook": I passed this up for weeks because the name seemed stupid, then I read a review when I was looking for new horror. I was not disappointed. This movie uses minimalist tactics for the scare factor and it does so to amazing effect. Best part: by the end, you're not entirely sure if this single mom and her child are being stalked by an actual monster, or if it's all in her mind.

"It Follows": Fairly original concept (having sex with someone means the monster that is stalking you will now begin staking your partner) delivered in a dreamy sort of languid atmosphere. Uses long takes and a few 'gotcha' moments. Has a flaw or two (doesn't really explore the concept to its full potential, nor does it explain the "rules" very well) but overall delivers the scare factor with the kind of urgency that will have you ignoring the main characters in favor of watching the edges of the frame. You'll see what I mean.

Posted by: SGT York at October 30, 2015 05:00 PM (OlBc3)

173 How many of you remember the movies with the other brother John Holmes. You mean Mycroft?...the brother that works for the government?

Posted by: CanaDave at October 30, 2015 05:01 PM (hZmU4)

174 I was all set to discuss the thrilling chapter about the juggling mime dachshunds, but then I realized that the librarian had given me "The Hounds of Vaudeville". So I have nothing to add.

Posted by: Seamus Muldoon at October 30, 2015 05:02 PM (mvenn)

175 Wasn't there plans for a TV series in which Holmes was an asian woman? Kind of like Thor. How'd that work out?

Posted by: Aretha Caitlyn Doyle at October 30, 2015 05:03 PM (jRs7b)

176 I was all set to discuss the thrilling chapter about the juggling mime dachshunds, but then I realized that the librarian had given me "The Hounds of Vaudeville".


So I have nothing to add.

Posted by: Seamus Muldoon at October 30, 2015 10:02 PM (mvenn)

=================================




For some reason I have flashes of the Ed Sullivan show with the dancing poodles and the spinning plates.



Posted by: grammie winger, uff da at October 30, 2015 05:04 PM (dFi94)

177 173 Sherlock Holmes' smarter brother.

Posted by: Tuna at October 30, 2015 05:04 PM (JSovD)

178 You mean Mycroft?...the brother that works for the government? Posted by: CanaDave **** The one who considers Sherlock slow?

Posted by: Animatronic Kasich Controller at October 30, 2015 05:05 PM (hVdx9)

179 Wasn't there plans for a TV series in which Holmes was an asian woman? Kind of like Thor. No, its a TV show with a scumbag jerk queer Holmes and Lucy Liu as Watson. Its not a bad show in terms of mystery and events, but a horrible, unforgivable Sherlock Holmes show.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at October 30, 2015 05:06 PM (39g3+)

180 FWIW: Nowhere in any of the Sherlock Holmes stories or novels does Holmes say "Elementary, my dear Watson." Don't think Holmes ever wears a deerstalker cap (not 100% sure of this), and he certainly never smokes a big calabash pipe. (Holmes does smoke some kind of pipe, but usually prefers cigarettes.) These were tropes introduced by a popular British stage actor who first portrayed Holmes, and were then carried over into the Basil Rathbone movies. The image of Watson as a fat, bumbling dunce was totally the creation of Nigel Bruce, and appears absolutely nowhere in Doyle's works. Watson was a medical doctor (as was Doyle himself) with a well-above average intelligence, as Holmes well knew. Watson was also a wounded war vet, a man of immense physical courage and honor. Just sayin'.

Posted by: WED at October 30, 2015 05:06 PM (QcKaX)

181 Did anyone see the "Mr. Holmes" with Ian McKellan as the aged detective? Is it worth viewing?

Posted by: Tuna at October 30, 2015 05:07 PM (JSovD)

182 Wasn't there plans for a TV series in which Holmes was an asian woman? Kind of like Thor. How'd that work out? Posted by: Aretha Caitlyn Doyle **** She no love us long time.

Posted by: Animatronic Kasich Controller at October 30, 2015 05:07 PM (hVdx9)

183 Es ist jetzt Zeit für der Hund von Baskerville: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIYRFvQMh7A

Posted by: Ray de Caracas del Norte at October 30, 2015 05:08 PM (2HTBx)

184 Actually, it was Hollywood who turned Watson into an oaf. In Doyle's original stories, Watson is a trusted confidant who, admittedly, doesn't share Holmes' gifts of observation and deduction, but is a full partner in the adventures nevertheless.

Posted by: J. Locke at October 30, 2015 05:08 PM (AeqWm)

185 Did anyone see the "Mr. Holmes" with Ian McKellan as the aged detective? Is it worth viewing?[/i[ I've heard its good but no. I want to.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at October 30, 2015 05:08 PM (39g3+)

186 John Cleese as Holmes. Arthur Lowe as Watson. The best versions of the characters.

Posted by: otho at October 30, 2015 05:09 PM (EWg9n)

187 I did enjoy some of the place names in the story. Grimpen Mire: grim pen. Pretty much fits Doyle's description. Doyle did have fun with a few of the characters. The doctor with his obsession about skulls (a bit Holmes-like in my opinion) and Frankland who is fanatical about the law to the point of ruin. I've wondered if Frankland was based on someone Doyle knew. Even the villain who chases butterflies. Doyle was under huge public pressure to bring back Holmes. Even his mother thought he should. He 'complied' by writing Hound as an earlier tale but I believe he indulged himself a bit by emphasizing others besides Holmes.

Posted by: JTB at October 30, 2015 05:09 PM (FvdPb)

188 156 Here's what I learned from "Hound of the Baskervilles": No matter how much 19th century literature I read, I cannot keep the following straight: fen marsh swamp moor bog etc I have decided I will locate these things in the real world and visit them at least until I can tell a gorse from a tor. Posted by: moviegique at October 30, 2015 09:50 PM (m3P2y) --Don't forget pocosin. In general, bogs' chief vegetation is moss; for marshes it's grass; for swamps it's trees.

Posted by: logprof at October 30, 2015 05:10 PM (vsbNu)

189 For collectors of film portrayals of Holmes and Watson, here is one you might not have seen, but I think it's really the best: http://tinyurl.com/ngafa9m This was a series of Sherlock Holmes films made in the Soviet Union in the early 1980s! Vassily Livanov played Holmes, and I really think he is the best I've ever seen. And Watson was played as a sensible, brave, imaginative man, not a buffoon or perpetual second fiddle. This first episode combines the meeting of Holmes and Watson with "The Speckled Band". The sets all have a charming weirdness to them: a Russian imagining of what Victorian England looked like. The houses don't look at all like English houses, but you just get used to it after awhile.

Posted by: Dr. Mabuse at October 30, 2015 05:10 PM (gjLib)

190 "I say, you really are an uncouth dunce, aren't you?" "Que, senor? No hablo Englez."

Posted by: Wooster and Jeb at October 30, 2015 05:11 PM (jRs7b)

191 Ace, always remember that Holmes is modeled on one of Conan Doyle's medical school professors, Dr Bell, so Doyle is putting Watson in the same relationship, that of student to Holmes' professor.

Posted by: SDN at October 30, 2015 05:12 PM (Y+SJ+)

192 184 Edward Hardwicke in the Jeremy Brett series did a remarkable job of rehabilitating the Watson character.

Posted by: Tuna at October 30, 2015 05:12 PM (JSovD)

193 I did enjoy some of the place names in the story. Grimpen Mire: grim pen. Pretty much fits Doyle's description There was a farm they mentioned once when looking over the map: Foulmire House, I think it was called. Doesn't that conjure up a bleak image?

Posted by: Dr. Mabuse at October 30, 2015 05:14 PM (gjLib)

194 For collectors of film portrayals of Holmes and Watson, here is one you might not have seen, but I think it's really the best: http://tinyurl.com/ngafa9m


Posted by: Dr. Mabuse at October 30, 2015 10:10 PM (gjLib)
===========================================




How interesting - thank you!


Posted by: grammie winger, uff da at October 30, 2015 05:14 PM (dFi94)

195 161 -- I'm trying to do this less, but I am the same way. Fell in love with Ray Bradbury (cue music video) so read everything of his I could get my hands on. Repeat with ACD, ERB, HPL, etc.

Posted by: moviegique at October 30, 2015 05:16 PM (m3P2y)

196 Edward Hardwicke in the Jeremy Brett series did a remarkable job of rehabilitating the Watson character. Agree...the first guy they had playing Watson in that series was bit of a bumbler type. Edward Hardwicke was a lot more sober and thoughtful.

Posted by: CanaDave at October 30, 2015 05:16 PM (hZmU4)

197

Does Ace know that House M.D. was a modern re-make of Sherlock Holmes?

He was better as Lord Flashheart in Blackadder

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at October 30, 2015 09:34 PM (39g3+)

-----

No, that was Rick Mayall of The Young Ones fame.  Hugh Laurie was Prince George and Leftenant George in BlackAdder

Posted by: Darth Randall at October 30, 2015 05:17 PM (KlVdw)

198 Did anyone see the "Mr. Holmes" with Ian McKellan as the aged detective? Is it worth viewing?

Kinda slow, but charming.  Mickey/Sylvia and I both enjoyed it.

Posted by: Mickey and Sylvia at October 30, 2015 05:17 PM (QP2lF)

199 After a quick re-read I am convinced that Holmes got the wrong solution. Dr. Mortimer was the real murderer, probably working with Mrs. Stapledon to frame her husband. Mortimer was, of course, Professor Moriarty in disguise.

Posted by: Trimegistus at October 30, 2015 05:18 PM (jb6xI)

200 My favorite Holmes story. I agree, Brett was a fantastic Homes and Hardwicke was a good Watson. Fixed the damage done by Bruce to the character I think.

Posted by: awhindy at October 30, 2015 05:18 PM (shgj0)

201 Uummmm...ONT.

Posted by: ManWithNoParty [/i] [/s] [/b] at October 30, 2015 05:18 PM (gdiBW)

202 So has the fen gotten yon gorse or is thou stuck upon a petard as a ravening horde of lymers pursue?

Anyway, being clever when the imagination tank is empty except for tropes is akin to eating food with left-handed carbon.  Seems to fill the mind but in the end the reader starves to death.

Posted by: Anna Puma at October 30, 2015 05:18 PM (q/kuR)

203 193 ... Thanks. I couldn't recall the other place name that reflected the area.

Posted by: JTB at October 30, 2015 05:18 PM (FvdPb)

204 Yeah, yeah, I'm zombie now but I was a great basketball player once. U Memphis, remember? Okay, not THAT great. Just good. But I had the greatest name in sports.

Posted by: Baskerville Holmes at October 30, 2015 05:20 PM (JfN61)

205 199 - James Thurber wrote a short story called "The Macbeth Murder Mystery", where a woman reads the play and thinks it's really a murder mystery, so Macbeth is the obvious suspect, but it CAN'T be him who's doing the killing. Maybe it's Banquo, but he's the second murder victim, just like in a good mystery, so then a convoluted theory is developed where Lady Macbeth's father, in disguise, is trying to make his daughter queen by killing everyone in her way.

Posted by: Dr. Mabuse at October 30, 2015 05:21 PM (gjLib)

206 Missed this thread so I guess if there is another I will chime in? I listened to this on tape and I also saw the modern series version of it last year. I love the setting.

Posted by: Lea at October 30, 2015 05:22 PM (vmMMi)

207 Also, I didn't actually like the ending. I mean, I liked how it went down, but it felt anticlimactic.

Posted by: moviegique at October 30, 2015 05:23 PM (m3P2y)

208 Anyway, being clever when the imagination tank is empty except for tropes is akin to eating food with left-handed carbon. Seems to fill the mind but in the end the reader starves to death.
Posted by: Anna Puma at October 30, 2015 10:18 PM (q/kuR)


I loved Doorways in the Sand by Zelazny.  Especially the alien disguised as a kangaroo.

Posted by: Kindltot at October 30, 2015 05:23 PM (3pRHP)

209 @206-Lea Ace said he's going to bump it again tomorrow to continue the Hound of the Baskervilles chat.

Posted by: CanaDave at October 30, 2015 05:25 PM (hZmU4)

210

Did anyone see the "Mr. Holmes" with Ian McKellan as the aged detective? Is it worth viewing?

Posted by: Tuna at October 30, 2015 10:07 PM (JSovD)

-----------

Yes and maybe.

Saw it with the wife when it came out.  It is a very well crafted and yet a bit of a depressing movie, as it is presented as Holme's last case as he is old and developing senile dementia. 

Posted by: Darth Randall at October 30, 2015 05:26 PM (KlVdw)

211 @210...everything these days seems extremely well done but depressing...it's like the 70's with more budget and better production values.

Posted by: CanaDave at October 30, 2015 05:28 PM (hZmU4)

212 The Stapeldons are just wrong throughout.  Both the warning by the  sister and the odd flashes of sinister intent by the brother. 
I was never sure if this was intentional foreshadowing ignored by Watson, or just too obvious.

Connan Doyle fancied himself a novelist like Bulwyr-Lytton or Walter Scott.  I think he kept trying to push the Holmes books into that sort of mold.

Posted by: Kindltot at October 30, 2015 05:29 PM (3pRHP)

213 211 -- Watch more indie films and documentaries; stay away from "arty" American films. Check out my blog for tips.

Posted by: moviegique at October 30, 2015 05:31 PM (m3P2y)

214 "let me enjoy some time with people who aren't assholes for a while"

Oh fuck no, that won't do.

Posted by: Corona at October 30, 2015 05:34 PM (tWUja)

215 Connan Doyle fancied himself a novelist like Bulwyr-Lytton or Walter Scott. His other works like The White Company are much better. Holmes was how he made money so he could write the other stuff that people forgot.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at October 30, 2015 05:34 PM (39g3+)

216 @moviegique...cool blog...your tagline should read 'I go to the movies so you don't have to' :-)

Posted by: CanaDave at October 30, 2015 05:35 PM (hZmU4)

217 216 -- Hahahaaha! I like that.

Posted by: moviegique at October 30, 2015 05:37 PM (m3P2y)

218 It's all yours :-)

Posted by: CanaDave at October 30, 2015 05:38 PM (hZmU4)

219 I read this recently, and all the rest of the collected works - it was free at one time from Amazon. I get the general consensus opinion that Holmes is an asshole, but I didn't get that vibe from the works. Occasionally moody and brusque, but overall of a better temperament than I expected. He was an ass to the police - he considered them largely stupid. He did, however, tell them outright to take all the credit and leave him out of it.

Posted by: Jeff Weimer at October 30, 2015 05:39 PM (hIefj)

220 Re: the Stapletons, I think Doyle is giving us clues, but when I first read it I was so intent upon just reading through the story to find out what would happen next, I didn't notice the clues. Rereading it for tonight, I spotted them. They're supposed to be brother and sister but look NOTHING alike. Beryl in fact is of Spanish descent - they met in South America - she's dark and statuesque. (I guess she was able to speak English without an accent.) Whereas Stapleton is described as blonde and pale, and actually rather wimpy. He's physically not very strong, to the point that Holmes and Baskerville are worried about how he could fight off an attack by Selden if the convict came to their house. I don't think I've ever seen him look like this in any film version I've seen. Watson is perplexed by Beryl's warning, but he doesn't know what to make of it. He does the right thing by passing it on to Holmes, though, who DOES see the meaning in it. In retrospect, I feel foolish for not realizing that they were married, but the first time, I didn't see it at all.

Posted by: Dr. Mabuse at October 30, 2015 05:40 PM (gjLib)

221 Watson is no buffoon in the stories, perhaps you are watching the old Basil Rathbone/Nigel Bruce movies where he was so portrayed.

But yes, Holmes is sometimes stymied, but never afraid.


Posted by: Adjoran at October 30, 2015 05:41 PM (QIQ6j)

222
His other works like The White Company are much better. Holmes was how he made money so he could write the other stuff that people forgot.
Posted by: Christopher Taylor at October 30, 2015 10:34 PM (39g3+)


I've read Ivanhoe and the The White Company...  And I remember Ivanhoe.

Posted by: Kindltot at October 30, 2015 05:42 PM (3pRHP)

223 Sorry, I meant *Watson* and Baskerville are worried about the Stapletons out alone on the moor. They even offer to send one of their servants to help guard them.

Posted by: Dr. Mabuse at October 30, 2015 05:42 PM (gjLib)

224 There are also a number of red-herrings like Barrymore roaming the mansion at night signalling or peering into the moor at nights.  At what point are we to find the evidence that he was not doing something underhanded?

Posted by: Kindltot at October 30, 2015 05:47 PM (3pRHP)

225 I almost laughed at the way Selden was treated. After Watson and Baskerville fail to catch him, Barrymore complains that it wasn't fair to use his information to try to capture his murderous brother-in-law. Baskerville very sensibly says that the guy is a menace to the public, and can't be allowed to run free - he could kill somebody. Barrymore reassures him that soon he'll be out of their hair; a boat is ready to pick him up on the coast and take him to Australia. Problem solved! Sir Henry and Watson seem satisfied with this solution. Nobody seems to care about what this guy might do when he gets off the boat in Australia!

Posted by: Dr. Mabuse at October 30, 2015 05:48 PM (gjLib)

226 In retrospect, I feel foolish for not realizing that they were married, but the first time, I didn't see it at all. I didn't either but it was kind of obvious. I've read Ivanhoe and the The White Company... And I remember Ivanhoe. I recommend re-reading, its wonderful. Ivanhoe is akin to moving a weight set to the attic as a read.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at October 30, 2015 05:49 PM (39g3+)

227 225 -- Australia's a prison, so it's all good, man.

Posted by: moviegique at October 30, 2015 05:50 PM (m3P2y)

228 Barrymore is a classic red herring, used throughout the book. Have you noticed how often Watson mentions Barrymore, and then repeats the incident of the stranger following Sir Henry in London? It happens over and over. We're being directed to think Barrymore = Bearded Man in the Hansom Cab even when Watson is pointing out that there's no proof that it was Barrymore.

Posted by: Dr. Mabuse at October 30, 2015 05:52 PM (gjLib)

229 "a Hero is confident and in control, whereas the entire premise of Horror is that you are afraid and at the mercy of something you don't understand."
And just like that Ace made me feel good about myself. I hate those Scream movies because i always ask,"Why don't you just SHOOT the son of a bitch when he shows up on your porch?!"

Posted by: hurricane567 at October 30, 2015 05:59 PM (zm2y1)

230 220 ... I never thought about the Stapletons differing appearences as siblings because my younger brother and I look so dissimilar. We just take after different sides of the family. It might have been a clue to the reader but, if so, it was subtle and Doyle doesn't really emphasize it until the epilogue. Of course I was about seven years old when I first read Hound so my deductive powers hadn't peaked.

Posted by: JTB at October 30, 2015 06:00 PM (FvdPb)

231 shattered nerves, the clients always end up with shattered nerves

Posted by: @votermom at October 30, 2015 06:03 PM (cbfNE)

232 > Nobody seems to care about what this guy might do when he gets off the boat in Australia! Because, Australia!

Posted by: Comrade Arthur at October 30, 2015 06:03 PM (h53OH)

233 Though it's kinda sad Mrs Stapleton doesn't end up with the baronet after all.

Posted by: @votermom at October 30, 2015 06:05 PM (cbfNE)

234 Nobody seems to care about what this guy might do when he gets off the boat in Australia! Please. Everything in Australia will either bite ya, sting ya, stick ya or kill ya just for fun. Actual quote from a guy in Australia: "Those little brown snaikes? Do for you in 30 seconds." The criminal from England wouldn't have lasted ten minutes.

Posted by: HTL at October 30, 2015 06:08 PM (JsSFV)

235 Oh, man, I'm so glad we're resuming tomorrow.

Let's just say it's martini and double-cut pork chop night here at Chez Max, and I do not have the necessary bandwidth to give this the attention it deserves.

For, my stout on-line comrades, I'm the guy who is on his second Sherlock Holmes collection, because I wore the first one down to threads and scrap paper.

I've probably read The Hound of the Baskervilles 35-40 times. Maybe more. Just can't beat a winter's night before the fire, some fine whiskey from the tantalus, and a manuscript from 1742 laying out how Hugo Baskerville meets the Devil.

So, Teach, I know the subject matter.

And, no, Holmes is not just Mr. Jagoff tormenting poor Watson in this one. Watson actually does most of the heavy lifting in this one, and gets due credit for it.

Anyway, see you tomorrow with fresh synapses. If you see a cigarette marked 'Bradley, Oxford Street', you'll know I'm in the neighborhood!

Posted by: Sort-of-Mad Max at October 30, 2015 06:08 PM (DLu2s)

236 votermom, It's never stated in the story but even of they wanted to be together it would take a long time. First, Baskerville has to recover from his shattered nerves. Second, it's assumed that Stapleton is dead but thy never find his body. It would take some time, years I guess, to declare him dead, freeing his wife to remarry. And that is all beyond the time frame of the story. But I agree. Having them end up together would be nice.

Posted by: JTB at October 30, 2015 06:17 PM (FvdPb)

237 I almost laughed at the way Selden was treated. After Watson and Baskerville fail to catch him, Barrymore complains that it wasn't fair to use his information to try to capture his murderous brother-in-law. Baskerville very sensibly says that the guy is a menace to the public, and can't be allowed to run free - he could kill somebody. Barrymore reassures him that soon he'll be out of their hair; a boat is ready to pick him up on the coast and take him to Australia. Problem solved! Sir Henry and Watson seem satisfied with this solution. Nobody seems to care about what this guy might do when he gets off the boat in Australia! Isn't Australia populated entirely by criminals?

Posted by: Thing From Vizzini, uh, Snowy Mountain at October 30, 2015 06:27 PM (2eZBM)

238 I have a big dilemma in that my favorite characterization of Holmes is actually from a movie with a rather shaky plot but great acting: Murder by Decree, where Holmes is played by Christopher Plummer. I just don't buy into their whole explanation of the Jack The Ripper killings.

Posted by: Thing From Snowy Mountain at October 30, 2015 06:41 PM (2eZBM)

239 The scary part is when I make my appearance *nails-on-chalkboard cackle*

Posted by: Presidential Candidate With A Giant Hairy Smelly Vagina at October 30, 2015 06:46 PM (W0EkJ)

240 Murder By Decree was better than I expected, but Christopher Plummer is brilliant (and James Mason does a great Watson). The Ripper story wasn't too bad, and I suspect the real sequence of events wasn't far off the mark from that. From Hell by Alan Moore and Whitechapel Conspiracy by Ann Perry offer some alternative options.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at October 30, 2015 07:33 PM (39g3+)

241 From Hell by Alan Moore and Whitechapel Conspiracy by Ann Perry offer some alternative options. Posted by: Christopher Taylor at October 31, 2015 12:33 AM (39g3+) Although the hypothesis used as the basis for From Hell has been discredited, that film is still, by far, my favorite dramatization of the "Ripper" murders. Just enough corroborative detail to lend verisimilitude to an otherwise bald and unconvincing narrative.

Posted by: HTL at October 30, 2015 07:44 PM (JsSFV)

242 Ace: I'm late to this discussion, but am I correct in understanding that this really is your first foray into the Doyle's Holmes works? (if not, please ignore the rest of this comment) If so, and particularly if you read them all, as I have dozens of times in the past 40+ years, you'll learn that Holmes isn't nearly the hard hearted shithead he appears to be, and is, in fact, as solicitous & appreciative of Watson in the books as he is in the recent big- and small-screen productions.

Posted by: Patton at October 30, 2015 09:47 PM (6gpuy)

243 Ace - I can't dispute your point since it's been a while since I've read the Holmes stories (I read them all 10 yrs ago). But this thread has motivated me to. Your point about Watson's stupidity being necessary to the plot reminds me of the same thought I had about Commander Riker in ST-TNG, and Worf, for that matter. They exist primarily to blurt out a foolish recommendation that usually gets swatted down by the Captain. In fact, Riker's buffonery was on full display in "Samaritan Snare" where the Captain leaves the ship for a medical procedure and Riker almost burns the house down, so to speak. Then, just a few episodes later, Riker is hailed for his command style and offered the Captain's seat on another ship, which he declines - also, to make the show's long-term plot work.

Posted by: MC at October 31, 2015 02:08 AM (B8a9Z)

244 Ace you are misreading the character of Holmes and Watson as written by Doyle. Certainly in his first few stories Holmes is written as a bit of a misanthrope who is dismissive of Watson. But in later stories Holmes displays much more compassion for his clients and Watson. Read The Yellow Face, The Solitary Cyclist, The Blue Carbuncle, and especially The Three Garridebs. In that one Watson is shot and Holmes displays such concern that Watson is shocked. Probably most have an inpression that Holmes is an asshole and Watson is an oaf from their portrayals in films and TV. In my opinion no portrayal has captured the true essence of Conan-Doyle's character yet. Some (Johnny Lee Miller) are too neurotic. Some (Jeremy Brett) are too fey. Some (Cumberbatch) are too misanthropic. Some (Rathbone) are too bland. Some (Downey) are too flamboyant. Having said that, the BBC Sherlock probably comes closest to Conan-Doyle's characters.

Posted by: Lamont Cranston at October 31, 2015 02:55 AM (Rtyzj)

245 Steady...Robin...old...chum...

Posted by: Corona at October 31, 2015 03:06 AM (tWUja)

246 A lot of votes for Brett's portrayal of Holmes. The problem with him is he was gay. And he was the kind of gay that trips Gaydar. He was just too effeminate to meet my idea of Holmes from the books. Holmes is a masculine, English gentleman who just happens to be an absolute genius. He treats clients, and especially females with the utmost respect.

Posted by: Lamont Cranston at October 31, 2015 03:21 AM (Rtyzj)

247 It has been quite a while since I read this. Watson did pretty well for himself while on his own, as I recall. Movies of Holmes and Watson have never done justice to the original stories. The most recent films, with Robert Downey, Jr. and Jude Law, aren't actually trying to follow any one story particularly closely, which is why I think they are great fun to watch. I'll try to reread it in order to participate more fully here.

Posted by: Krebs v Carnot: Epic Battle of the Cycling Stars (TM) [/b] [/i] [/s] [/u] at October 31, 2015 03:50 AM (BK3ZS)

248 125He was best as Bertie Wooster. Posted by: grammie winger, uff da at October 30, 2015 09:35 PM (dFi94) The scene where Bertie is trying to play "Putting on the Ritz" on the piano and cannot manage the syncopation is one of my favorites.

Posted by: Krebs v Carnot: Epic Battle of the Cycling Stars (TM) [/b] [/i] [/s] [/u] at October 31, 2015 04:18 AM (BK3ZS)

249 That part about Selden being allowed to go free as long as he was leaving the country stood out to me also on this reading (though my copy has him going to South America, not Australia as others have said). 

I wonder (and am no doubt overthinking) if this was a subtle reminder that one of the Baskervilles ran to Central America - a clue intended for the reader, and not the characters.

Or perhaps South America was the premiere hotspot for fleeing criminals.

Posted by: No One of Consequence at October 31, 2015 04:21 AM (b0LbM)

250 As to the Holmes/Watson relationship  - Holmes does say some asshole-ish things sometimes but I don't think he sees them that way (shades of Sheldon Cooper, as others have noted).  He seems to delight in Watson's efforts at deduction, even when he comes to the wrong conclusions.  And as we see in the case of the walking stick, even Holmes's conclusions are not infallible.

Ultimately, though, if Watson were truly a buffoon, Holmes would not keep him around.  In other stories, there are some very buffoonish police.  Holmes is dismissive of them in a way he never is with Watson.

Posted by: No One of Consequence at October 31, 2015 04:37 AM (b0LbM)

251 Here's what I learned from "Hound of the Baskervilles": No matter how much 19th century literature I read, I cannot keep the following straight: fen Ahh, Moviegique in 156 you tell us marsh swamp moor bog etc I have decided I will locate these things in the real world and visit them at least until I can tell a gorse from a tor. We don't have to locate fens, swamps, bogs and mires anymore as they are now all "Wetlands." And don't take the advice given earlier of rolling in the gorse on a tor. Climb the tor and admire the gorse. As a further clue, gorse is a plant into which a golfer only reaches once for a golf ball. Think briars and then think of a magnitude increase--sort of like the Richter scale. You're welcome

Posted by: A study in Scarlet O'Hara at October 31, 2015 04:41 AM (U0log)

252 Because fuck Australia, that's why.

Posted by: Sherlock Holmes at October 31, 2015 05:09 AM (VvMUk)

253 Don't forget, these stories were the pulp fiction of their day and not meant as literature. They were published in Strand magazine for popular consumption. There were the original Batman and Robin, the original "cop buddies" that spawned a thousand variations to this day.

Posted by: sherlockzz at October 31, 2015 05:47 AM (uBsvC)

254 No, Holmes is just so brilliant he can't understand how no one else sees what he sees. Watson understands this. He also understands Holmes need him to keep him (Holmes) real. He's also his tech advisor on all things medical. And most of Holmes' zingers aren't nasty (from someone who real all the short stories and all the novels). And whoever thought Rathbone's characterization of Holmes made him out to be an ass never saw Jeremy Brett in the part.

Posted by: formwiz at October 31, 2015 06:27 AM (3rwvI)

255 "I don't know, am I as the reader supposed to laugh along with Sherlock at the dribbling imbecile Watson?"

There was actually some very, very old film of Arthur Conan Doyle talking in the 1920s about the stories, and I believe he referred to Watson as something like a "bumbling idiot". Actually made my wife and I dislike the author a bit. The character was a doctor and war veteran who hung out with a genius...how is he an idiot?

Posted by: S at October 31, 2015 06:32 AM (HCXGq)

256 I mentioned this on the Sunday book thread. If you want to know more about Holmes and Doyle's other writing, check out "On Conan Doyle" by Michael Dirda. I've read just about every book Dirda has written and am never disappointed. His delight in books is infectious. Turns out Hound of the Baskervilles was his introduction to Sherlock Holmes and is eerily similar to my experience, even down to acquiring the paperback edition. Neat stuff even if it happened 55 years ago.

Posted by: JTB at October 31, 2015 06:35 AM (FvdPb)

257 By the way, I checked the mighty IMDB to make sure Hound was the first of the Rathbone/Bruce movies. It's pretty instructive to see what else Basil was up to at the time: 1938: Guy of Gisborne in Robin Hood (opposite Errol Flynn) 1939: Son of Frankenstein, Hound of the Baskervilles, Adventures of Sherlock Holmes 1940: Mark of Zorro, The Mad Doctor That's only about half the movies he appeared in at the time, but there are actors whose lifetime careers can't match the great pictures Rathbone was in over just that one three-year period.

Posted by: Sherlock Holmes at October 31, 2015 06:40 AM (VvMUk)

258 Oops, that's supposed to be me, not Sherlock.

Posted by: Trimegistus at October 31, 2015 06:41 AM (VvMUk)

259 I never saw the abusive relationship. Watson isn't Holmes's inferior. He's a doctor who gets a kick out of detective work. He pushes his friend to reveal his methods, and occasionally pitches in to help. When he helps, he's both useful and needed. If Holmes ever stopped by the eye-doctorin' office, the dynamic would be totally reversed.

Posted by: Zach at October 31, 2015 07:29 AM (Tr+Z0)

260 >I don't know, am I as the reader supposed to laugh along with Sherlock at the dribbling imbecile Watson? I like this coming on a site where the readers and commenters are "morons". Also it is important to remember Watson is the person telling the story. The relationship is closest to a professor and a student. Socrates doesn't call Plato an idiot when pointing out incorrect theories and logic problems. Or, being a political site imagine a conservative debate. You aren't going to pat Watson on the head and give him a special trophy for effort like a liberal. You say "Stop being a fool and really think about what you are saying!"

Posted by: justaguy at October 31, 2015 07:36 AM (NkKGW)

261 The first two seasons of the BBC Sherlock captured the Holmes / Watson dynamic pretty well, I think (the third season disintegrated into everybody being in love with Holmes, who is also in love with himself). Most adaptations of Sherlock Holmes are best when Holmes and Watson are presented as equals. When they focus on Holmes to the exclusion of Watson, he comes across as a narcissist or an Asperger's case. Hound of the Baskervilles is unique in that it's basically a Watson story with a cameo by Holmes. It lets the atmosphere develop more strongly, since Holmes's presence always pushes the plot toward resolution.

Posted by: Zach at October 31, 2015 07:43 AM (Tr+Z0)

262 Couldn't get into the story. Just skimming to get the idea. and this caught my eye : But the Times is a paper which is seldom found in any hands but those of the highly educated. I laughed.

Posted by: Hayfield Volkovski at October 31, 2015 07:49 AM (uO1eG)

263 For those who found the Sherlock Holmes stories, especially The Hound of the Baskervilles, at a young age. Did that lead you to other fiction from the Victorian and Edwardian eras? It did for me with stories by H. Rider Haggard, Jules Verne, Edgar Rice Burroughs and others influenced by them like EE Smith and his Skylark and Lensman series. My appreciation of that writing, stories for the sake of good story telling, has grown over time. That's a long way of saying the Hound led to decades of wonderful reading.

Posted by: JTB at October 31, 2015 07:54 AM (FvdPb)

264 Or perhaps South America was the premiere hotspot for fleeing criminals. Posted by: No One of Consequence at October 31, 2015 09:21 AM (b0LbM) Nonsense.

Posted by: Association of Post WWII Nazis in Hiding at October 31, 2015 07:57 AM (cbfNE)

265 263 -- JTB, I did--but, no, interestingly enough, it didn't lead to more readings from that era. What got me hooked on older works was HP Lovecraft's "Horror and the Supernatural in Literature", which cites dozens and dozens of works going back millenia. Well, that and trying to read modern literature.

Posted by: moviegique at October 31, 2015 07:58 AM (m3P2y)

266 262 ... Well, maybe that sentiment was correct in 1902.

Posted by: JTB at October 31, 2015 07:59 AM (FvdPb)

267 Remember that Watson is the narrator, and he purposely downplays his own abilities and intelligence to highlight that of his hero. As a Victorian era gentleman, Watson is self-deprecating to a fault. He's an outstanding athlete, an accomplished physician, a war hero, and does pretty well with the fairer sex. He's a pretty astute observer, too. He just doesn't brag about it.

Posted by: That SOB Van Owen at October 31, 2015 08:30 AM (xrET7)

268 I think ace is overgeneralising from one unusually arrogant put-down by Holmes at the beginning of *Hound of the Baskervilles*. Holmes *is* somewhat obnoxious, with a Richard Feynman-like rockstar attitude, but he's not *constantly* insulting Watson. (It's not all that surprising that Watson and others are willing to put up with Holmes' attitude either: look at the legions of Feynman or Steve Jobs admirers out there, including people who actually had to deal with them in person.) And it's not as if we're always supposed to find Holmes' odd behaviour charming or impressive: things like his drug habit and his determination to forget everything he doesn't need to know for his work are meant to make him look like a weirdo. And as ace is about to find out, Watson's far from being a useless idiot in *Hound*, even though of course Holmes is usually one step ahead. Many of the film and TV adaptations have exaggerated ("flanderised") Watson into a hapless old buffer, probably much more than they've exaggerated Holmes' traits (though they've sometimes done that too). Anyway, if you think Holmes' arrogance is hard to take, you should take a look at the character he's based on, Poe's Auguste Dupin!

Posted by: anonymous irishman at October 31, 2015 08:34 AM (DJgfL)

269 263 JTB - have you read The Riddle of the Sands? Another good one.

Posted by: anonymous irishman at October 31, 2015 08:35 AM (DJgfL)

270 A lot of votes for Brett's portrayal of Holmes. The problem with him is he was gay. Wait a minute, Jeremy Brett wasn't homosexual! He was married twice, had kids, and was very griefstricken when his second wife died. I'd never heard anyone describe him so, and I don't know where the idea comes from. Probably from his languid Holmes performance.

Posted by: Dr. Mabuse at October 31, 2015 08:50 AM (gjLib)

271 I'm glad to see you all still here! I had to go to bed at 11:00PM last night, and figured I'd have to wait until Ace rolls in to start the afternoon thread to talk any more Hound of the Baskervilles. 249 That part about Selden being allowed to go free as long as he was leaving the country stood out to me also on this reading (though my copy has him going to South America, not Australia as others have said). You've got a copy with a different destination for Selden? Interesting. I wonder if anyone else spots that. Jeremy Brett's 'Hound' is really very good, one of his best peformances as Holmes, and an early one. I guess the writers were a bit struck by the callousness of just getting the criminal out of the country and then not worrying about whom he might victimize afterwards, because they added in a little detail that's not in the original. Barrymore says that in the prison, Selden was lobotomized, so he was now like a child, and no threat to anyone anymore. That had the advantage of heightening Sir Henry's kindness in providing him castoff clothing for his emigration; a kindness that would prove to be fatal. In the book, Sir Henry just leaves the business to Barrymore.

Posted by: Dr. Mabuse at October 31, 2015 08:58 AM (gjLib)

272 269 ... anonymous, The Riddle of the Sands has been on my Kindle for 2 years but I never got around to it. Reading the Amazon comments and your mention means it goes to the top of the list once I finish the re-read of LOTR. Thanks.

Posted by: JTB at October 31, 2015 09:12 AM (FvdPb)

273 A lot of votes for Brett's portrayal of Holmes. The problem with him is he was gay. No, that's the modern one in "Elementary" on American TV. Godawful show.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at October 31, 2015 09:19 AM (39g3+)

274 Riddle of the Sands was made into a good movie, too. I think Michael York was in it.

Posted by: Dr. Mabuse at October 31, 2015 09:21 AM (gjLib)

275 By the time Baskervilles was written, Australia wasn't a prison colony any longer. However, I got the impression from the book that Selden wasn't nearly the monster that the press and cops were building him up as. However, Holmes did have a tendency to play fast and loose with the law when he thought justice was at stake or when he felt compassion toward someone.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at October 31, 2015 09:23 AM (39g3+)

276 I've seen a number of Hound of the Baskerville movies and TV shows. Always thought the Jeremy Brett version came closest to the book but they added the lobotomy, the potential romance between Sir Henry and Mrs. Stapleton, and confirmation of Stapleton's death, at least for the audience. None of them had the effect the book had for me.

Posted by: JTB at October 31, 2015 09:25 AM (FvdPb)

277 275 - You may be right about Selden. He didn't attack anyone after he escaped from prison. But wasn't his death sentence commuted to life in prison because he was judged insane? It's hard to square that with the idea that he could have reformed, and would lead a peaceable existence once out of England. I think maybe there was just no other way of getting rid of Selden without involving the police, so Doyle came up with this escape plan, knowing that it would never come to fruition anyway.

Posted by: Dr. Mabuse at October 31, 2015 09:29 AM (gjLib)

278 You know, we don't have to guess, since we're referencing a pre-Mickey Mouse book. Check out the Gutenberg: http://www.gutenberg.org/files/3070/3070-h/3070-h.htm "...in a very few days the necessary arrangements will have been made and he will be on his way to South America."

Posted by: moviegique at October 31, 2015 10:09 AM (m3P2y)

279 My profoundest apologies, moviegique, to you and to everyone on the thread. I consulted my own copy of the book, and it's there in black and white: South America. NOT Australia at all. I introduced a red herring of my own into this discussion, and I don't know why I was so sure I'd read Australia, but there it is. Perhaps some movie changed the destination, and that overpowered my memory. It isn't of colossal importance, because it would be just as bad to set loose a murderer in South America as it would in Australia. Worse, maybe, because Australia HAD been a penal colony in earlier times. Maybe its very "foreignness" excused such behavior to Doyle's mind. And maybe it WAS bit of a reminder of the Baskerville family connection to South America, for those who might be paying attention.

Posted by: Dr. Mabuse at October 31, 2015 10:47 AM (gjLib)

280 "Wait a minute, Jeremy Brett wasn't homosexual! He was married twice, had kids, and was very griefstricken when his second wife died. I'd never heard anyone describe him so, and I don't know where the idea comes from. Probably from his languid Holmes performance." You're absolutely right. I could've sworn I read that somewhere years ago. At any rate, as I stated before his portrayal is just too flamboyant and whimsical for me. Holmes is one of those characters (like the Joker from Batman) that actors feel gives them license to chew up the scenery and ham it up. When it reality that's just not who Sherlock Holmes is. "No, that's the modern one in "Elementary" on American TV. Godawful show." Completely agree. They turned Holmes into a neurotic mess and Watson into his deductive equal after a couple of seasons. Just dreadful. There's also a bit of the "magical negroe" trope going on except it's the "wise Asian women." Watson in never wrong and usually spends at least some of her time cleaning up the mess that Holmes has made of something. PC garbage is what it is. The BBC's Sherlock is vastly superior.

Posted by: Lamont Cranston at October 31, 2015 10:55 AM (Rtyzj)

281 I missed the thread where we decided to  read this.  And i have never read it because I just don't care that much for Sherlock Holmes mysteries.

Posted by: Vic[/i]-we have no party at October 31, 2015 11:00 AM (t2KH5)

282 Ah, the thread has been bumped! OK, Ace, have you finished the book now? What did you think?

Posted by: Dr. Mabuse at October 31, 2015 11:00 AM (gjLib)

283 Don't make Holmes work you over with his single stick

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at October 31, 2015 11:01 AM (39g3+)

284 You should give it a try, Vic. As we said last night, it's a real breezy, fun read, not at all convoluted or heavy in its English.

Posted by: Dr. Mabuse at October 31, 2015 11:02 AM (gjLib)

285 Don't make Holmes work you over with his single stick Posted by: Christopher Taylor I promise you, Holmes has a big stick.

Posted by: Joe Biden at October 31, 2015 11:06 AM (FkBIv)

286 "For those who found the Sherlock Holmes stories, especially The Hound of the Baskervilles, at a young age. Did that lead you to other fiction from the Victorian and Edwardian eras?" No. I came to the Conan-Doyle works through Indiana Jones. Lol. Since a child, I was fascinated by the lone hero archetype in literature and movies. I saw The Last Crusade in theaters when I was eight or so and fell in love. Then I found out that the man who played Indy's dad in the movie once played a very famous hero himself. That introduced me to the James Bond movies and the wonderful Ian Fleming Bond novels. Written as pulp fiction for the masses much the same way Conan-Doyle's stories were a century before. I remember reading a passing remark some writer made that Sherlock Holmes was the thinking man's James Bond. I immediately set about consuming the 56 short stories and four novels. Ian Fleming and Arthur Conan-Doyle practically raised me. Lol.

Posted by: Lamont Cranston at October 31, 2015 11:09 AM (Rtyzj)

287 Posted by: Vic-we have no party at October 31, 2015 04:00 PM (t2KH5)

Then why comment?

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at October 31, 2015 11:10 AM (Zu3d9)

288 Posted by: Ace at 04:49 PM Wait, what?

Posted by: rickl at October 31, 2015 11:11 AM (sdi6R)

289 Posted by: Christopher Taylor at October 31, 2015 04:01 PM (39g3+)

Any other martial arts mentioned? I have a hazy memory of him using "Savate," but I am definitely not sure.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at October 31, 2015 11:12 AM (Zu3d9)

290 I had never read a Doyle book, read The Hound because of this thread and enjoyed it very much. My prior knowledge of Sherlock consisted of "elementary dear Watson" , something about a dog that didn't bark, and the joke about the stars. Then I watched the BBC Sherlock series. Great entertainment for me, love the humor, the mystery, the friendship.

Posted by: FormerlyMountainTurtle at October 31, 2015 11:13 AM (hipNa)

291 I have always enjoyed the contrast between the the city...London...where anything and everything can be had; and the moors, which are almost literally in the middle of nowhere and might as well be prehistoric.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at October 31, 2015 11:13 AM (Zu3d9)

292 For those who found the Sherlock Holmes stories, especially The Hound of the Baskervilles, at a young age. Did that lead you to other fiction from the Victorian and Edwardian eras?"
====================================



Not unless you count Agatha Christie as Edwardian.  I'm not sure exactly when her first book came out.  Let me go check ...... I think it's past that.



Sherlock Holmes, then Agatha Christie.  Hooked me on mysteries for, what, 50-odd years now?



Anyway, off to check those dates.

Posted by: grammie winger, uff da at October 31, 2015 11:13 AM (dFi94)

293 Read it a while back. Although this was one of the better ones, truthfully, I'm not really wowed by Holmes stories. They're not bad, but maybe a bit basic. I think they generally come off better in the treatments since Conan Doyle, probably due to changing styles.

Posted by: Pappy O'Daniel at October 31, 2015 11:14 AM (L7t0A)

294 Any other martial arts mentioned? I have a hazy memory of him using "Savate," but I am definitely not sure. Judo, although I'm not sure he mentions it by name. Holmes knew a bit (not nearly as much as the Robert Downey jr character shows but some) but he left most of the fighting to Watson.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at October 31, 2015 11:15 AM (39g3+)

295 The Hound is a love puppy.

Posted by: Bruce With a Wang! at October 31, 2015 11:16 AM (iQIUe)

296 Christie's first published novel was The Mysterious Affair at Styles, written in 1916.

Posted by: grammie winger, uff da at October 31, 2015 11:17 AM (dFi94)

297 Brotherhood Of The Wolf made me think of Hound with the monster in it and the mystery on the moors with wealthy people. A bit different sort of story but lots of fun. Strangely, the French make really good action flicks.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at October 31, 2015 11:18 AM (39g3+)

298 Seriously, rub his belly!

Posted by: Bruce With a Wang! at October 31, 2015 11:18 AM (iQIUe)

299 Watson is far from being the buffoonish figure he is sometimes portrayed as in the films-particularly in the portrayal by Nigel Bruce. Watson reports about the moor and the sharp dialogue he shares propel the novel rather than Holme's presence-since Holmes is gone for much of the novel. And for being such a brilliant detective, Holmes makes some serious mistakes. Twice he risk Baskerville's life and he has to apologize for his treatment of his client. He never does catch the murderer who escapes arrest.

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at October 31, 2015 11:18 AM (No/ki)

300 Posted by: Christopher Taylor at October 31, 2015 04:15 PM (39g3+)

Judo was invented in the 1880s, so probably not.

Maybe Jujitsu?

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at October 31, 2015 11:18 AM (Zu3d9)

301 Maybe Jujitsu? Some kind of Japanese wrasslin' is all I remember. As for Watson being a bumbling idiot in some portrayals; Holmes wouldn't waste time teaching him his methods and relying on him for input if Watson was stupid. He's not as good as Holmes, but then, nobody but Mycroft is - and Mycroft is even better.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at October 31, 2015 11:21 AM (39g3+)

302 When describing how he escaped from Moriarty at the Reichenbach Falls, Holmes says that he knows "baritsu", or Japanese wrestling, and manages to throw off Moriarty and pitch him into the waterfall.

Posted by: Dr. Mabuse at October 31, 2015 11:21 AM (gjLib)

303 I saw The Last Crusade in theaters when I was eight or so and fell in love. - Get. Off. My. Lawn.

Posted by: The Great White Snark at October 31, 2015 11:21 AM (Nwg0u)

304 >>And while we mock it now, we also all routinely have images of what a thug looks like, what a pervert looks like, etc. Why are you looking at us?

Posted by: Chuck Shumer and Harry Reid at October 31, 2015 11:22 AM (c7vUv)

305 289 ... I think Holmes mentioned in "The Empty House" using baritsu to defeat Moriarty. He described it as Japanese wrestling, IIRC. Haven't read that one in a long time, so the memory could be wrong.

Posted by: JTB at October 31, 2015 11:22 AM (FvdPb)

306 Ngaio Marsh's mysteries are entertaining, somewhat similar to Agatha Christie's books.

Posted by: FormerlyMountainTurtle at October 31, 2015 11:23 AM (hipNa)

307 I've got the complete Sherlock Holmes set around here somewhere.  I'll have to dig for it.

Posted by: grammie winger, uff da at October 31, 2015 11:24 AM (dFi94)

308 And while we mock it now, we also all routinely have images of what a thug looks like, what a pervert looks like, etc. The thing is, most of the time its true. The evil in many people ends up being written on their faces. When you see someone who is a pedophile, you can often guess "pedo" when you see them. That doesn't mean its universal, but often it is true. Bad guys often look bad. And often in the flavor they are bad. We've gone way overboard the other direction pretending everyone is the same and there's just no possible way to spot a bad guy because gosh that would be judgmental. Its somewhere closer to the middle between the two extremes.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at October 31, 2015 11:25 AM (39g3+)

309 And Holmes is not brilliant at *everything*. It's only in his own particular field of detective work that he's the great genius. It's funny the details you notice when you read a story like this and look for things to discuss. For those who say Holmes is hard on Watson, check out the early chapter when they have a few hours to kill and go to an art gallery. Watson says, "He would talk of nothing but art, of which he had the crudest ideas..."

Posted by: Dr. Mabuse at October 31, 2015 11:26 AM (gjLib)

310 Does anyone know about the third brother? He may be featured in the next BBC Sherlock series.

Posted by: FormerlyMountainTurtle at October 31, 2015 11:27 AM (hipNa)

311 Of course as smart and logical as Holmes is, it's interesting that he has a far more intelligent brother.

Posted by: HH at October 31, 2015 11:29 AM (DrCtv)

312 Mycroft is, if anything, even less likable than Sherlock. He would be an interesting character for books (and people have done it before) who solves mysteries while sitting in his study without moving, but from the way he's described in the books, Mycroft is too busy running the British Empire to do anything extra.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at October 31, 2015 11:30 AM (39g3+)

313 I liked how even the ever-logical Holmes was momentarily awestruck when he first saw the hound.  That bit of uncertainty threatened to unravel all his plans (and nearly got Baskerville killed).  Nice to see him have a "Holy shit!" moment once in a while.

Posted by: No One of Consequence at October 31, 2015 11:30 AM (b0LbM)

314 Vic, Sorry you don't enjoy the Holmes stories. They were sort of a CSI of their day. I suspect the tales seem 'basic' now because others have been adapting the techniques for over a century. I'm glad I can still enjoy the original stories.

Posted by: JTB at October 31, 2015 11:31 AM (FvdPb)

315 Posted by: Christopher Taylor at October 31, 2015 04:25 PM (39g3+) Not so sure about the looks, but ever been around someone who just gives off a bad vibe? Not even something they say, but just sort of creeps you out?

Posted by: HH at October 31, 2015 11:32 AM (DrCtv)

316 Posted by: Christopher Taylor at October 31, 2015 04:30 PM (39g3+) Yet Mycroft is the one person Sherlock holds in complete awe. And he didn't come across to me as unlikable in the story interactions with Sherlock.

Posted by: Jeff Weimer at October 31, 2015 11:33 AM (hIefj)

317 The complete Sherlock set is something I think my library should have. I will probably add it sometime. My next book purchase will be Man's Search for Meaning.

Posted by: FormerlyMountainTurtle at October 31, 2015 11:34 AM (hipNa)

318 I'm assuming Ace got through the whole story and we don't have to worry about spoilers now. I thought of one flaw in the story: the mystery of "The Man on the Tor", whom Watson sees silhouetted against the sky the night they're chasing Selden. He describes him as tall and thin; wouldn't this equally describe Doctor Mortimer? Couldn't HE have been the mysterious spectators that night?

Posted by: Dr. Mabuse at October 31, 2015 11:34 AM (gjLib)

319 arrymore reassures him that soon he'll be out of their hair; a boat is ready to pick him up on the coast and take him to Australia. Problem solved! - Kinda like my plan to ship 'em to Detroit.

Posted by: The Great White Snark at October 31, 2015 11:36 AM (Nwg0u)

320 I liked how Holmes could see a footprint and deduce that the shoe was made in Northampton or whatnot, based on the pattern of the nails. That wouldn't work today, since all shoes are mass-produced at the same factory in China.

Posted by: rickl at October 31, 2015 11:37 AM (sdi6R)

321 (I was wrong - Selden's going to South America, not Australia. Moviegique had it right.)

Posted by: Dr. Mabuse at October 31, 2015 11:37 AM (gjLib)

322 Not so sure about the looks, but ever been around someone who just gives off a bad vibe? Not even something they say, but just sort of creeps you out?

Posted by: HH at October 31, 2015 04:32 PM (DrCtv)

==========================================



Yeah.  My cousin.  He was a creep when he was a kid.  When he grew up, he really started looking like a creep, in addition to being a real actual creep.



It's the combination of a soft mouth and a weak chin, coupled with eyes that stay on you too long, and a handshake that feels like wet flounder.





Posted by: grammie winger, uff da at October 31, 2015 11:37 AM (dFi94)

323 What makes this a great story for Halloween is the dread of the hound and its description and the moor-which is highly romanticized-quaking bogs, dense fog "like cotton wool", escaped convicts stumbling around on it, neolithic stones huts. All of this combined with the legend of the evil Baskerville and his demise. The atmosphere is one of a wilderness-a land of antiquity and mist.

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at October 31, 2015 11:39 AM (No/ki)

324 Not even something they say, but just sort of creeps you out? Yeah. I got to know a guy pretty well like that. He struck me as being a little off, and gradually I came to realize he was truly insane. Not "wow you're crazy dude" but actually frighteningly psychopathic and unable to relate to humanity or emotions at any level. Charismatic though, and he fooled a lot of people. But there was something just dead in the eyes. He did not react or respond the way humans do.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at October 31, 2015 11:40 AM (39g3+)

325 "He would talk of nothing but art, of which he had the crudest ideas..." - "How 'bout dem boobies?"

Posted by: The Great White Snark at October 31, 2015 11:41 AM (Nwg0u)

326 Holmes also wouldn't be able to tell from a paw print whether it was a hound or some other type of large dog.

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at October 31, 2015 11:42 AM (No/ki)

327 That was one aspect of the Sherlock TV show that was great; it demonstrated why knowing art was actually useful to a detective. First season was pretty good. Went downhill pretty quickly though.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at October 31, 2015 11:44 AM (39g3+)

328 well you can still tell a great deal from a shoeprint even so. height, weight, emotional state, gender, etc

Posted by: Bigby's Knuckle Sandwich at October 31, 2015 11:44 AM (Cq0oW)

329 309 ... In one story Watson mentions that Holmes preferred the most over wrought melodrama at the theater. Apparently, Holmes' taste and talent for music didn't extend to art and drama.

Posted by: JTB at October 31, 2015 11:46 AM (FvdPb)

330 Does anyone know about the third brother? He may be featured in the next BBC Sherlock series.

Sigurdson?

Posted by: Pappy O'Daniel at October 31, 2015 11:46 AM (oVJmc)

331 I think Holmes mentioned in "The Empty House" using baritsu to defeat Moriarty. He described it as Japanese wrestling, IIRC. Haven't read that one in a long time, so the memory could be wrong. Posted by: JTB at October 31, 2015 04:22 PM (FvdPb) Correct. That is what it says in the story, although it turns out that at the time The Final Problem took place (1891), the term baritsu had not yet been coined (it was a European term used to describe a subset of ju-jitsu techniques). The notes that accompany the text in the Annotated Sherlock Holmes whimsically suggest that Watson, having recently read the article that first described baritsu (which was published in 1899), inadvertently and anachronistically substituted the term in his narration (written in 1903) for what Holmes said at the time of the events described in The Empty House (1894), which would have been ju-jitsu.

Posted by: HTL at October 31, 2015 11:48 AM (uxTTM)

332 Imma just pop in here to add my useless 2 cents. #1... I love the RDJ movies. They just rock. Seems they did a mash up of different stories to make each movie, or maybe just took the out lines and filled in with different paint than what Doyle would have done. #2.... Holmes is brilliant. The most brilliant detective in the world. He can be (like many a genius, Edison for example) arrogant and condescending. He has little patience for people who are willingly stupid and tends to be brusque and dismissive of those people. He respects Watson and values that friendship, but occasionally gets frustrated that his friend can be pedantic. Holmes feels it is his duty to help his friend learn to see the world the way Holmes does. When it seems that he is failing to do that he gets huffy with Watson. Failure is something that Holmes truly fears.

Posted by: madamemayhem at October 31, 2015 11:50 AM (WPm3x)

333 Posted by: Christopher Taylor at October 31, 2015 04:40 PM (39g3+) About 5yrs ago we had a very bad abduction/rape/murder happen here. The person was caught and confessed. Weird thing is both my niece and nephew had worked with the guy. Niece thought he was great, but the nephew always found him creepy. Anecdotal, but I think men can spot this a lot faster then women can.

Posted by: HH at October 31, 2015 11:51 AM (DrCtv)

334 Yeah Doyle didn't treat the stories very seriously in terms of consistency. Watson's shoulder wound became a leg wound at times, and he was even called Jack in one story. But hey, they were good reading

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at October 31, 2015 11:51 AM (39g3+)

335 "Any other martial arts mentioned? I have a hazy memory of him using "Savate," but I am definitely not sure." Interesting story there. Holmes is mentioned as being expert at singlestick and fencing as well as being a very talented amateur boxer.The only other martial art mentioned is something Conan-Doyle called Baritsu. Most scholars think that is either a typo by Doyle or a mistake at the type-setters because there was a martial art that was all the rage in London at that time called bartitsu. Wikipedia it. It was a complete invention by a man named Edward William Barton-Wright.

Posted by: Lamont Cranston at October 31, 2015 11:53 AM (Rtyzj)

336 Baritsu is what my mom taught me and my sister.

Posted by: Rhonda Rousey (from last night's ONT) at October 31, 2015 11:58 AM (eteeV)

337 I get all my coffee from the local baritsu

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at October 31, 2015 11:59 AM (39g3+)

338 Beware Mycrosoft Holmes and his computing mind.

Posted by: Morrey Arrity at October 31, 2015 12:00 PM (FkBIv)

339 without Holmes' constant insults of his slow-witted moron chum.

OT:  It really annoyed me when Martin Freeman's Watson didn't just shoot that blackmailer asshole in the head.  We know he's a good shot who has already killed.

Posted by: DaveA[/i][/b][/s] at October 31, 2015 12:00 PM (DL2i+)

340 One thing I didn't like about the BBC series (and it got worse as the seasons progressed) was an ugly streak of feminism that assumed that the Victorian era was a time of hideous torture of all females. By the end, you couldn't get through an episode without women wailing in misery at some point. Doyle's women can be vulnerable, but they don't strike me as victims at all, and this story is a good example. There are only 3 women of note: Beryl Stapleton, Laura Lyons and Mrs. Barrymore. They all have difficult lives, but they're also pretty tough and resourceful. There's no doubt Stapleton physically abuses Beryl, but she has a strong streak of independence. She won't go along with all of his plans (seducing old Sir Charles, for example) and finally balks entirely and has to be locked up to keep from ruining the attack on Sir Henry. She also tries several time to warn Sir Henry, at great risk to herself. And when she shows them the route through the Grimpen Mire, she says that she helped Stapleton plant the markers to guide the path - she's not some trembling violet, she's a sturdy partner whom he relies on for risky tasks. Laura Lyons is a scarlet woman, but she's trying to turn her life around and support herself. Her problem is that she falls for the wrong kind of men, more than once, but she's intelligent and probably could lead an independent life. Mrs. Barrymore is a sketchy character, but she runs big risks to help her brother, so she's also not a weakling. And in Doyle's other stories, it's striking how strong most of the women are, even when they're in danger.

Posted by: Dr. Mabuse at October 31, 2015 12:03 PM (gjLib)

341 Mycroft is, if anything, even less likable than Sherlock. He would be an interesting character for books (and people have done it before) who solves mysteries while sitting in his study without moving, but from the way he's described in the books, Mycroft is too busy running the British Empire to do anything extra. Posted by: Christopher Taylor at October 31, 2015 04:30 PM (39g3+) ________ Sherlock is nothing without Watson and if the actor doing Watson can't cope against the scenery-chewing Holmes, it doesn't work. The Liu-Watson is abominable. The Freeman-Watson makes the current BBC series. Mycroft always makes me think of Nero Wolfe.

Posted by: mustbequantum at October 31, 2015 12:03 PM (MIKMs)

342 Sigurdson? I don't know anything more, except it may be played by the actor who plays Loki.

Posted by: FormerlyMountainTurtle at October 31, 2015 12:04 PM (hipNa)

343 I just realized I have a book full of Sherlock Holmes stories on my bookshelf that I have never read.

Posted by: Lea at October 31, 2015 12:06 PM (vmMMi)

344 I love the bob series except the third season went a bit off the rails.

Posted by: Lea at October 31, 2015 12:07 PM (vmMMi)

345 I think you're right about the Mycroft-Nero Wolfe connection, I'm pretty sure that's where Rex Stout got his idea.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at October 31, 2015 12:08 PM (39g3+)

346 I really enjoy discussing books here; I wish that we could do that more often-It's a relief from ever present politics.

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at October 31, 2015 12:10 PM (No/ki)

347 Lobotomy wasn't invented until the 1940s.

Posted by: Trimegistus at October 31, 2015 12:13 PM (VvMUk)

348 At one point Rex Stout was hinting that Nero Wolfe was the illegitimate son of Irene Adler and a Certain British Detective, but presumably took after the fat side of the family.

Posted by: Trimegistus at October 31, 2015 12:14 PM (VvMUk)

349 "I love the bob series except the third season went a bit off the rails." Agreed. Watson's wife being a secret, super spy was a huge WTF moment. And they better not bring back Moriarty. Not only is he played by an overacting twit but it stretches the bounds of believability too far.

Posted by: Lamont Cranston at October 31, 2015 12:14 PM (Rtyzj)

350 Posted by: FenelonSpoke at October 31, 2015 05:10 PM (No/ki) Well, there is that Sunday thingy, but yes, I understand. Should have had a longer thread about creepy books/stories yesterday.

Posted by: HH at October 31, 2015 12:15 PM (DrCtv)

351 I have also grown weary of the Cumberbatch/Freeman series. Benedict C. does an excellent portrayal of the character, but the series writers have gone off into Crazytown.

Posted by: Trimegistus at October 31, 2015 12:15 PM (VvMUk)

352 324 Not even something they say, but just sort of creeps you out? Yeah. I got to know a guy pretty well like that. He struck me as being a little off, and gradually I came to realize he was truly insane. Not "wow you're crazy dude" but actually frighteningly psychopathic and unable to relate to humanity or emotions at any level. Charismatic though, and he fooled a lot of people. But there was something just dead in the eyes. He did not react or respond the way humans do. Posted by: Christopher Taylor at October 31, 2015 04:40 PM (39g3+) Enough about Obama. does everything *have* to be about politics? /s

Posted by: Jeff Weimer at October 31, 2015 12:16 PM (hIefj)

353 Well, looks like I'm going to have to sign off soon and take my kid trick-or-treating. He's now at the age where he doesn't want me to accompany him and his friends, but still needs someone to drive him to the area of operations.

Posted by: Trimegistus at October 31, 2015 12:17 PM (VvMUk)

354 Posted by: HH at October 31, 2015 05:15 PM (DrCtv) I love the book thread and I enjoyed the creepy stories thread. I just meant I enjoy people talking about one particular book; It's fun.

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at October 31, 2015 12:17 PM (No/ki)

355 "Martin Freeman's Watson didn't just shoot" I agree, I can only think that he thought Sherlock had a better plan and was waiting for that.

Posted by: FormerlyMountainTurtle at October 31, 2015 12:18 PM (hipNa)

356 Actually, there's a 4th woman: Dr. Mortimer's wife. She comes to dinner at the Hall one time. But did you notice that by the end, she's completely disappeared from the story? Dr. Mortimer is heading off on a round the world tour with Sir Henry to help him recover his health; where's his wife? Just like Watson, this is another doctor whose wife just conveniently disappears when more interesting activities arise.

Posted by: Dr. Mabuse at October 31, 2015 12:18 PM (gjLib)

357 Not going to be here for about an hour of prime trick-or treating time, so I left out a bowl with a card asking people to help themselves to 3 pieces each. I'm here now, I'm going to check back every ten minutes to see if some little hooligan has taken it all. Probably 50 mini-Snickers, KitKats, Twix, etc. I've got plenty in reserve if these disappear.

Posted by: Lincolntf at October 31, 2015 12:18 PM (2cS/G)

358 Posted by: Trimegistus at October 31, 2015 05:15 PM (VvMUk)

Agreed!

Just modernize the many Holmes stories that already exist. There is plenty of material.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at October 31, 2015 12:19 PM (Zu3d9)

359 I should say, howver, that after seeing the trailer for the BBC Sherlock Christmas special that they're setting in the Victorian Era I have a raging erection.

Posted by: Lamont Cranston at October 31, 2015 12:20 PM (Rtyzj)

360 The problem with Sherlock is a combination of the writer being obsessed with homosexuality and his idea is to write his characters into a godawful dilemma then have him figure the way out. So its never actually about a mystery or deduction, its about crisis and escape.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at October 31, 2015 12:20 PM (39g3+)

361 "....whose wife just conveniently disappears when more interesting activities arise."

Posted by: Dr. Mabuse at October 31, 2015 05:18 PM (gjLib)

That sounds fantastic!

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at October 31, 2015 12:20 PM (Zu3d9)

362 > 318 I thought of one flaw in the story: the mystery of "The Man on the Tor", whom Watson sees silhouetted against the sky the night they're chasing Selden. He describes him as tall and thin; wouldn't this equally describe Doctor Mortimer? Couldn't HE have been the mysterious spectators that night? Posted by: Dr. Mabuse After Holmes and Watson met again, Holmes said he had been that "man on the Tor". Said he had made a mistake allowing the moon to make him visible.

Posted by: Comrade Arthur at October 31, 2015 12:21 PM (h53OH)

363 Bbc series in the Victorian era? That sounds awesome. I like cumberbatch, but freeman makes the show for me.

Posted by: Lea at October 31, 2015 12:21 PM (vmMMi)

364 "363 Bbc series in the Victorian era? That sounds awesome. " Go take a look on YouTube. It looks fantastic. It airs January 1st.

Posted by: Lamont Cranston at October 31, 2015 12:25 PM (Rtyzj)

365 >>>The problem with Sherlock is a combination of the writer being obsessed with homosexuality and his idea is to write his characters into a godawful dilemma then have him figure the way out. Ummm, you're going to need to explain that.

Posted by: HH at October 31, 2015 12:26 PM (DrCtv)

366 Sometimes a pipe is just a pipe...

Posted by: Lincolntf at October 31, 2015 12:32 PM (2cS/G)

367 The first season of the BBC show was creative and interesting the way it played off the original stories. The latest season the writing went to shit and I lost interest. Maybe this Christmas special will be better. In the meantime, I have my 2 volume hardcover annotated complete Sherlock Holmes to rely on.

Posted by: JTB at October 31, 2015 12:35 PM (FvdPb)

368 Ummm, you're going to need to explain that. What I mean is that the writer is not writing mysteries, he's not writing about the science of deduction. He's writing his character into a corner then figuring a way out. Its about escaping seemingly impossible dilemmas and traps, not detective work. The mystery aspects are simply incidental. He wrote Dr Who the same way.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at October 31, 2015 12:36 PM (39g3+)

369 At one point in the story they mention the sound of the hound perhaps being a bittern. When the story was written i think they were almost extinct and weren't found in Dartmoor in October anyway, but here's a sound of a bittern. Listen to the whole thing; It is kind of creepy . https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3VUS9SihKc

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at October 31, 2015 12:37 PM (No/ki)

370 335 Not a complete invention: WP says it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartitsu was probably Barton-Wright's adaptation or rebranding of jujutsu plus other styles he picked up.

Posted by: anonymous irishman at October 31, 2015 12:40 PM (DJgfL)

371 BTW, for those only familiar with Conan Doyle through Holmes, check out his Professor Challenger stories, starting with "The Lost World". Talk about a character with a monumental ego! Even so, you can't help but be taken with him.

Posted by: That SOB Van Owen at October 31, 2015 12:40 PM (xrET7)

372 FS, Thanks for the bittern link. I had no idea what they really sounded like.

Posted by: JTB at October 31, 2015 12:42 PM (FvdPb)

373 Posted by: Christopher Taylor at October 31, 2015 05:36 PM (39g3+) My bad. I thought you were talking about ACD, not the series.

Posted by: HH at October 31, 2015 12:43 PM (DrCtv)

374 Fenelon, that's the weirdest birdsong I've ever heard! It sounds like a farting donkey.

Posted by: Dr. Mabuse at October 31, 2015 12:46 PM (gjLib)

375 And here's an interesting article on legendary black does of England-although you can find lots of websites devoted to this: http://modernfarmer.com/2014/06/black-shuck/

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at October 31, 2015 12:47 PM (No/ki)

376 362 "After Holmes and Watson met again, Holmes said he had been that "man on the Tor". Said he had made a mistake allowing the moon to make him visible. Posted by: Comrade Arthur" Yes, but we only find that out when Holmes reappears. At the time of the incident, Watson goes through his list of possible solutions - Barrymore, Selden - and can't think of who it could be. I just think that he didn't consider Dr. Mortimer at the time, and he should have.

Posted by: Dr. Mabuse at October 31, 2015 12:49 PM (gjLib)

377 319 What?

Posted by: anonymous irishman at October 31, 2015 12:50 PM (DJgfL)

378 Ace is posting...

Posted by: HH at October 31, 2015 12:58 PM (DrCtv)

379 Posted by: Dr. Mabuse at October 31, 2015 05:46 PM (gjLib) Yes, it is weird, and I don't think I'd want to hear it while lost in the dark on the moors. :^)

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at October 31, 2015 01:01 PM (No/ki)

380 I hate insult humor.  Back in the day...waaay back in the day, my friends were incredulous that  I didn't like the Sonny and Cher show.  I dunno hearing her constantly calling his mother a fat dago pig or whatever just seemed stupid and unfunny.  God I hated their shit.

Does this stuff appeal to wimpy people who dream of telling people off but would never do it in a million years?

Posted by: Jeanne of the North at October 31, 2015 01:07 PM (9w8Dl)

381 Here's a question: everyone in England seems to know exactly what a moor is and what it looks like. But we don't use that word at all in North America. What is our term for what the English call a moor? I've seen pictures: sort of hilly and smooth, no big trees. What place in North America would look like the moors around Baskerville Hall? (Grimpen Mire not included)

Posted by: Dr. Mabuse at October 31, 2015 01:19 PM (gjLib)

382 I think, to be fair to Nigel Bruce, the bumbling aspect of Watson isn't his fault. I think the Hollywood formula at the time was "dashing hero + comic relief sidekick". Unrelated: I got the impression that the man on the Tor was too tall to be anyone but Holmes. Taller and leaner than Mortimer.

Posted by: moviegique at October 31, 2015 01:22 PM (m3P2y)

383 > 376 362 Yes, but we only find that out when Holmes reappears. At the time of the incident, Watson goes through his list of possible solutions - Barrymore, Selden - and can't think of who it could be. I just think that he didn't consider Dr. Mortimer at the time, and he should have. Posted by: Dr. Mabuse ----------- Because, Watson.

Posted by: Comrade Arthur at October 31, 2015 01:26 PM (h53OH)

384 I would draw your attention to the curious incident of the Ewok and the garbage bins in the night.

Posted by: an HQ sherlock at October 31, 2015 01:27 PM (HbSdt)

385 > 381 Here's a question: everyone in England seems to know exactly what a moor is and what it looks like. But we don't use that word at all in North America. What is our term for what the English call a moor? I've seen pictures: sort of hilly and smooth, no big trees. What place in North America would look like the moors around Baskerville Hall? (Grimpen Mire not included) Marshy areas that aren't next to forests. Places in Canada that would be Tundra if it were colder.

Posted by: Comrade Arthur at October 31, 2015 01:28 PM (h53OH)

386 Moors... http://tinyurl.com/nhwu4al

Posted by: an HQ sherlock at October 31, 2015 01:29 PM (HbSdt)

387 I think, to be fair to Nigel Bruce, the bumbling aspect of Watson isn't his fault. I think the Hollywood formula at the time was "dashing hero + comic relief sidekick". Yeah and I think the producers were worried that Holmes was too cerebral and dry so they wanted some comic relief. Bruce was good in the part and played the English gentleman well enough when not forced to do retarded crap

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at October 31, 2015 01:36 PM (39g3+)

388 It's worth checking out the '30s version of "She" for a different take on Nigel Bruce.

Posted by: moviegique at October 31, 2015 01:37 PM (m3P2y)

389 A moor is a peat bog.

Posted by: Bruce With a Wang! at October 31, 2015 01:46 PM (iQIUe)

390 I don't know the term, but I've read that parts of Scandinavia have areas like the moor and, in years past, school children were taught how to cross it safely.

Posted by: JTB at October 31, 2015 01:52 PM (FvdPb)

391 Ugh. The moors are where Ian Brady and Myra Hindley buried the children they kidnapped, raped, tortured, and murdered. See No Evil - The Moors Murders - Full Film https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qt_vc0YJr_Y

Posted by: Bruce With a Wang! at October 31, 2015 01:53 PM (iQIUe)

392 Well, yeah, Bruce ended up typecast after "Hound". (It's a living!)

Posted by: moviegique at October 31, 2015 01:54 PM (m3P2y)

393 There are a few in the US but they tend to be protected nature reserves.

Posted by: Bruce With a Wang! at October 31, 2015 02:05 PM (iQIUe)

394 The moors!!! American Werewolf in London No backpacking on The Moors!!! I particularly like the scene where Watson who has been in edge out on the moors with the creepy staff at Baskervilke Hall, is ready to throw down with the figure he has spotted and whose dwelling Watson located And then it's..,., spoiler I was seriously pxssed at Sherlock for leaving Watson on his own out there for so long at that point Ash vs Evil Dead premieres on Starz tonight Happy Howloween Horde!!!!

Posted by: ginaswo at October 31, 2015 02:16 PM (qxNrP)

395 Saw it. Very good. Only disappointment is that only one episode a week.

Posted by: Bruce With a Wang! at October 31, 2015 02:17 PM (iQIUe)

396 Thanks to Ace for getting this going. Haven't read much Holmes for a while and forgot how enjoyable they are.

Posted by: JTB at October 31, 2015 02:21 PM (FvdPb)

397 Returning again to Selden, and the ethics of just shipping the murderer out of England to be somebody else's problem, Watson gives a startlingly modern response: ""I shrugged my shoulders. 'If he were safely out of the country, it would relive the tax-payer of a burden.'"

Posted by: Dr. Mabuse at October 31, 2015 02:29 PM (gjLib)

398 After the fun I had with Hound, I hope we can do something by H. Rider Haggard (She or King Solomon's Mines) or maybe the first John Carter of Mars book or something in that vein. I would suggest Jules Verne but there aren't many good translations. Most editions have been repeating the same bad translations for over a century.

Posted by: JTB at October 31, 2015 03:01 PM (FvdPb)

399 King Solomon's Mines is terrific reading, I'd love to see a solid treatment of that in film. That, and She.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at October 31, 2015 03:07 PM (39g3+)

400 Agreed. Watson's wife being a secret, super spy was a huge WTF moment. I had forgotten this detail, it was so bad. The third season really suffered from falling in love with Holmes. He's just so fantastic and so awesome, and everybody either loves him or hates him, that pretty soon everybody else has got to have a secret superpower, just to keep up.

Posted by: Zach at October 31, 2015 03:18 PM (Tr+Z0)

401 It's not a "solid" treatment but I do love the 1984(?) Canon rendition of "King Solomon's Mines" with Richard Chamberlain and Sharon Stone. It's campy, but funny.

Posted by: moviegique at October 31, 2015 03:18 PM (m3P2y)

402 King Solomon's Mines is terrific reading, I'd love to see a solid treatment of that in film. There's a pretty solid treatment from 1950 that sometimes shows up on TCM.

Posted by: Zach at October 31, 2015 03:19 PM (Tr+Z0)

403 My favorite mystery. Re-read it last year while on a train from London to Devonshire. My son and I visited places on the moors which inspired Doyle.

Posted by: Ilrndude at October 31, 2015 03:32 PM (GSY0K)

404 It might be fun to read a Talbut Mundy novel. Mundy was a liar, thief, bigamist, soldier, elephant hunter, poacher, bureaucrat, and journalist who, forced by poverty, turned to writing pulp fiction adventure novels. His most famous was King of the Khyber Rifles. The only book of his I've read is Caesar Dies about the plot to kill Emperor Commodus. He will never be accused of great literature but his books can be fun.

Posted by: The Great White Snark at October 31, 2015 03:33 PM (Nwg0u)

405 What the crap. I busted my ass to get the homework done by the due date, and this is thanks I get??!?! I demand a refund.

Posted by: chiefjaybob at October 31, 2015 03:43 PM (cgH9o)

406 This is a novel about the human condition.

Posted by: high school essay weasel phrases at October 31, 2015 03:46 PM (DCPtp)

407 Watson was only a clod in Hollywood.,

Is Ace a Moron?

Posted by: Grampa Jimbo at October 31, 2015 03:46 PM (1ijHg)

408 sounds like talbot mundy did the same old same old his whole life (liar to journalist)

Posted by: Bigby's Knuckle Sandwich at October 31, 2015 03:49 PM (Cq0oW)

409 Teacherrrrrrrr! Ace didn't do his homeworrrrrrrrk!

Posted by: Dr. Mabuse at October 31, 2015 03:56 PM (gjLib)

410 Bad Ace! Bad!

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at October 31, 2015 03:57 PM (39g3+)

411 I read this, and i had a lot of thoughts, but this occasional discussion is tough.

re. watson, It was kind of creepy how he seemed infatuated with holmes' mannerisms and actions so much. Kind of homo-neurotic.

And then he tolerates those insults. This is the first acd I have read, and now I understand why the adaptations seem to have so much trouble with Watson where  sometimes he is a doddering pensioner, sometimes a younger buffoon.

I think acd had trouble defining a character that is both methodical, intelligent, and yet too stupid to notice the portrait that resembled the killer. Watson was like spock in start treck -- a universal character that solves all the literary obstacles and is nearly impossible to cast or replace. He describes most of what we know about he mystery, he explains holmes, he confronts danger, and he documents the case.

Posted by: Gentlemen, this is democracy manifest at October 31, 2015 03:58 PM (LWu6U)

412 I think it would be neat if bloggers posted MP3's of them reading their posts.

Posted by: Boss Moss at October 31, 2015 04:03 PM (p9ACE)

413 mp3's?

we can't even post jpg's

Posted by: Gentlemen, this is democracy manifest at October 31, 2015 04:06 PM (LWu6U)

414 Ace does his mp3 on the podcast, but he usually sounds distracted.

Posted by: Gentlemen, this is democracy manifest at October 31, 2015 04:07 PM (LWu6U)

415 Here's something I've been wondering about: Stapleton and Laura Lyons. Was he serious about her (even in just a philandering husband with a roving eye way), or was he just using her all along? Holmes says that jealousy might have been one of Beryl's motives for finally turning against Stapleton. It was her "Spanish blood" that made her so unforgiving when she found out he'd been unfaithful. (That thing about "foreign blood" in women leading to tempestuous scenes occurs frequently in Sherlock Holmes stories.) I guess if he was just playing Laura, he wasn't able to convince Beryl of it.

Posted by: Dr. Mabuse at October 31, 2015 04:08 PM (gjLib)

416 Watson was always the muscle and Holmes was the brains and tactics....

Posted by: Hairyback Guy at October 31, 2015 04:09 PM (ej1L0)

417 Didn't ace post this thread before?  or am I losing it?

Posted by: Nip Sip at October 31, 2015 04:11 PM (jJRIy)

418 PBS Sherlock Holmes Title? I haven't watched that since they were in the underground.

Posted by: Boss Moss at October 31, 2015 04:13 PM (p9ACE)

419 I thought that Stapleton was just using LL.

He planned to disappear, so whether he was screwing her or not I don't know. It is always hard for me to tell when the sex is implied in prewar novels and drama. You kind of figure people were still screwing around, but no one talked about it or wrote about it, so either way,...

And the ethnic explanation for her actions I thought just explained a confused character.  With LL, it is hard to understand why she would keep the note secret after the murder, so there needed to be justification, and a reason for her to get in so deep with Stapleton. Then there needed to be a reason for her to squeal.

Posted by: Gentlemen, this is democracy manifest at October 31, 2015 04:19 PM (LWu6U)

420 He posted and bumped it. I thought he was going to do that when he was ready to chime in but...

Posted by: moviegique at October 31, 2015 04:20 PM (m3P2y)

421 For some Sherlock Holmes fun, do a search on Watson was a woman by Rex Stout. It was a paper he did for the Baker Street Irregulars meeting in 1941. It always makes me smile and laugh.

Posted by: JTB at October 31, 2015 04:25 PM (FvdPb)

422 Ace still hasn't finished???

Posted by: CDR M at October 31, 2015 04:27 PM (SCx0h)

423 It was Stapleton who persuaded Laura not to mention the rendezvous she'd arranged with Sir Charles, right? She assumed nobody would ever know about the note she'd sent. Why she said nothing - maybe Stapleton scared her into thinking that she might be suspected of having something to do with Sir Charles's death? Although it was ruled a natural death, so it's not like anyone was treating it like a murder. She had a reputation as a fast woman, though. Perhaps she didn't want people talking about her, implying she'd been having an affair with Sir Charles. She was struggling to hang on to some position in society, and didn't want to be regarded as a tramp, with no hope of being accepted among respectable people ever again.

Posted by: Dr. Mabuse at October 31, 2015 04:32 PM (gjLib)

424 404 It might be fun to read a Talbut Mundy novel. Mundy was a liar, thief, bigamist, soldier, elephant hunter, poacher, bureaucrat, and journalist who, forced by poverty, turned to writing pulp fiction adventure novels. His most famous was King of the Khyber Rifles. ... Posted by: The Great White Snark at October 31, 2015 08:33 PM (Nwg0u) ---- My dad was a big Talbut Mundy fan, especially of "Om: The Secret of Ahbor Valley". Mundy, Kipling, Haggard, Richard Henry Dana...all immensely popular but who reads them now but cultural throwbacks (like me)?

Posted by: All Hail Eris, Michigangsta at October 31, 2015 04:33 PM (jR7Wy)

425 It's ok,Ace, honey. Ima let you finish. yo.

Posted by: Kanye Ace Ewok Luvvah at October 31, 2015 04:38 PM (jRs7b)

426 338 Beware Mycrosoft Holmes and his computing mind.

It is by will alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of sapho that the thoughts acquire speed, the lips acquire stains, the stains become a warning. It is by will alone I set my mind in motion.

Posted by: Mycroft Holmes, Mentat at October 31, 2015 04:40 PM (o78gS)

427 I hate insult humor. Back in the day...waaay back in the day, my friends were incredulous that I didn't like the Sonny and Cher show. I dunno hearing her constantly calling his mother a fat dago pig or whatever just seemed stupid and unfunny. God I hated their shit. Does this stuff appeal to wimpy people who dream of telling people off but would never do it in a million years? Posted by: Jeanne of the North **** The type of people I have noticed like that sort of thing, actually live that way. Constantly insulting others. It makes them feel good to do so.

Posted by: Tilikum Killer Assault Whale at October 31, 2015 04:45 PM (hVdx9)

428 Is there a baseball thread I'm missing? Sorry if too o/t. Sitting at Mom's, drinking wine, watching the Series on her big screen, and passing out bags of candy to (mostly) little ghouls, princesses, and assorted characters. Had worse moments in my life. Just felt compelled to share that. Howl on, readers.

Posted by: mindful webworker - out of context at October 31, 2015 04:50 PM (+BxpP)

429 Never read the book, seen a couple of Sherlock movies/shows about The Hounds. I like them. I should read the book

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian, Model Citizen at October 31, 2015 05:00 PM (vL/IL)

430 The book was good, and I also said WTF to leaving Watson out on the Moors alone. I knew the dog would be real and if it was large as described, quite dangerous.

Posted by: Tilikum Killer Assault Whale at October 31, 2015 05:02 PM (hVdx9)

431 Is there much of a history of "buddy cop" type literature before Holmes and Watson? The stories wouldn't have been as much fun with Holmes doing everything including the boring parts.

Posted by: justaguy at October 31, 2015 05:03 PM (NkKGW)

432 Test

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian, Model Citizen at October 31, 2015 05:04 PM (UiGnh)

433 Ba-Rock Mundy, liar, cheat, thief & bureaucrat

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian, Model Citizen at October 31, 2015 05:11 PM (ZZgPW)

434 THPOILER: Dog puthy.

Posted by: Mikey T at October 31, 2015 05:16 PM (u5gzz)

435 The Hound did it.


Posted by: Grampa Jimbo at October 31, 2015 05:24 PM (1ijHg)

436 I guess I'm a bit stumped that any guy over fifteen hasn't read this yet.

Posted by: TB at October 31, 2015 05:38 PM (YMEYJ)

437 Poe's Dupin had a similar narrator/pal (to Watson), but being even MORE possessed of noble reticence, we never learn who he is.

Posted by: moviegique at October 31, 2015 06:38 PM (m3P2y)

438 I'm sorry I missed the thread! Was so looking forward to it. But I had the bizarrest of things happen to me Friday: an actual date with an actual human. ( I know I'm surprised too.) and today was insane. Excited to go back and read the comments! I love everything Holmsian. Have skimmed. In case has not been mentioned yet, the best explanation of Nigel Bruce bumbler Watson vs dashing man of medicine Watson is probably Hark A Vagrant's comic on it, The Case of The Two Watsons. Beaton is the best. http://www.harkavagrant.com/index.php?id=210

Posted by: LizLem at October 31, 2015 09:12 PM (f00Gn)

439 Dammit, missed the thread I'd been waiting for. Dammit!

Posted by: Quint&Jessel, Sea of Azof, Bly, UK at October 31, 2015 09:31 PM (AF8UR)

440 "Mr. Sherlock Holmes, who was usually very late in the mornings, save upon those not infrequent occasions when he was up all night," Now, who does this remind you of?

Posted by: Decaf at November 01, 2015 04:00 AM (In6r6)

441 "... but I confess that I covet your skull." I would find this rather disconcerting but Holmes took it in his stride. Gives credence to someone's earlier comment that Holmes is a lot like Sheldon Cooper.

Posted by: Decaf at November 01, 2015 04:10 AM (In6r6)

442 *pours Quint&Jessel sympathy tea*

Posted by: LizLem at November 01, 2015 09:19 AM (8bm9h)

443 I've read most all of the Holmes stories and don't recall thinking Holmes was all that rude. Perhaps the culture then was more matter-of-fact, and people respected accuracy more than "suffering fools gladly". We seem to cater to all kinds of foolishness these days.

Posted by: Elon at November 01, 2015 11:01 AM (RL0qu)

444 Elon yes, we have become super sensitive. I thought it was just rapid fire thinking and dialogue. Contrast Holmes with characters in Crying of lot 49. I prefer Holmes to that bunch of passive aggressives.

Posted by: Decaf at November 01, 2015 12:39 PM (In6r6)

445 >>>356 Dr. Mortimer's wife. She comes to dinner at the Hall one time. Are you sure? I don't see that.

Posted by: m at November 01, 2015 01:19 PM (tElZn)

446 >>> 235 I've probably read The Hound of the Baskervilles 35-40 times. >>> 242 particularly if you read them all, as I have dozens of times in the past 40+ years First time for me; I had clearly missed out. Thanks, Ace, for the incentive. And Project Gutenberg for the text.

Posted by: m at November 01, 2015 01:33 PM (tElZn)

447 Dr. Mortimer's wife. She comes to dinner at the Hall one time. Are you sure? I don't see that. Posted by: m at November 01, 2015 06:19 PM You're right, she doesn't come with Mortimer when he visits the Hall. But she is mentioned. In Chapter 6, Holmes is listing the various inhabitants around Baskerville Hall: "There is our friend Dr. Mortimer, whom I believe to be entirely honest, and there is his wife, of whom we know nothing." I thought that MAYBE Mortimer was widowed, and Doyle just forgot to mention it. Mortimer said that he left Charing Cross Hospital to marry and settle down, but his wife could have died before now. But it seems she's there, though from Mortimer's activities in the story you'd never know he was married at all.

Posted by: Dr. Mabuse at November 01, 2015 02:38 PM (gjLib)

448 >>>447 Mortimer's wife: Thanks for doublechecking that. It was her complete absence from sight that made her seem highly suspect, I thought--though it didn't quite work out that way.

Posted by: m at November 01, 2015 03:44 PM (tElZn)

449 I think the charm of the book is in the Victorian earnestness. The criminal has sunken eyes and has debauched his life. Brandy settles your nerves, and if you get really rattled a trip around the world is the ticket to health. I had a lot of fun reading "The Hound", as I had no recollections.

Posted by: Harland Hirst at November 01, 2015 03:45 PM (OPKdd)

450 I wonder if Doyle had really meant at one point to make Dr. Mortimer a widower, but just forgot to do it. So he ended up with this shadowy wife who just conveniently drops out of the story after the first few chapters. A little like Watson's wife, come to think of it, but at least Doyle finally got around to formally killing her off.

Posted by: Dr. Mabuse at November 01, 2015 04:08 PM (gjLib)

451 I think if you take the series as a whole you will find that Holmes values Watson for what he brings to the partnership. As Watson points out Holmes has many gaps in knowledge. Holmes has no patience for those who half way get it. Although he is very much a Victorian, Holmes has no time for Victorian pretensions. I think that Holmes represents the first of the cynical "Hardboiled" detectives usually associated with Hammett and Chandler and Watson is his foil to demonstrate that cynicism and alienation.

Posted by: Paul at November 02, 2015 03:41 AM (szchK)

452 From what I've read, Doyle kept Holmes out of most of the story because he despised having to write another Sherlock Holmes story, so he decided to left him out majority of the story just to tick up the readers.

Posted by: jeffunde at November 02, 2015 09:12 AM (no7vk)

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