November 29, 2008

Ten Terrorists Caused "India's 9/11"?
— Ace

Above the Post Update: The NYT reports estimates of 20 to 40 terrorists -- the nine killed and one captured are just the hold-outs and the ones who didn't flee.

That's still not an awful lot of guys, though.

One reason for the nervousness is that it seems likely that not nearly all the terrorists were caught or killed — and so far the whereabouts of the rest are a mystery. At least eight were confirmed dead on Friday, although more might be found as soldiers and the police combed through the two hotels. Security officials declared that they had taken control of the Taj Mahal Palace & Tower on Saturday morning, killing three militants.

Estimates of the number of attackers have ranged from 20 to 40, with the number depending to a considerable extent on the number of boats involved. As security forces seek to reconstruct how the gunmen managed to inflict so much carnage so quickly, they have been turning their attention to how so many assailants managed to reach the heart of Mumbai undetected and with such a large collection of guns, ammunition and explosives.


I hope that an American response to this sort of thing (and remember, it has long been speculated that the terrorists would move away from mega-attacks like 9/11 to simpler but easier attacks like invading a mall and shooting it up) would be a lot better.

I suspect it would be. However, a couple dozen terrorists in a high-traffic area could kill a lot of people before cops could show up.

Americans tend to carry more personal defensive weapons than just about anyone else in the developed world, but the terrorists would not be hitting targets in rural Texas, but in areas like NYC or big suburbs which are unarmed.

Even if a group of terrorists encountered some armed citizens -- the citizens would not be acting as a coordinated group and would be out-gunned in any event.

While cops in America would, hopefully, shut down this sort of an attack within (at most) a half an hour, the success of the terrorists in Mumbai only encourages fresh attempts at this sort of thing in our own country.

A lot of people can be shot or blown up in ten minutes.

I'm pretty sure that the long-anticipated small-scale run-and-gun terrorist attacks on malls and theaters and even waterparks -- anywhere with large crowds of people -- just went from a possibility to a near-certainty.

Via Hot Air's headlines.

...

Hard to imagine that India's police reaction could be that slow-responding to 10 armed psychopaths. It's possible the terrorists were just that good at executing their plan, but it seems more likely the cops weren't good enough.

India strongly suspects Pakistan -- and Pakistan warns (perhaps hoping to enlist tUS pressure) that should India deploy its military to Pakistan's border, Pakistan will (of course) divert all forces used in the War on Terror to respond.

Commandos ended a three-day rampage by Islamist gunmen in Mumbai on Saturday, gunning down the last of the militants who killed nearly 200 people in a strike on India's financial heart.

Elite Black Cat commandos killed the remaining four militants after a running gunbattle through a maze of corridors, rooms and halls in Mumbai's best-known hotel, the Taj Mahal.

There were signs of mounting public anger over the attacks, most of it directed against Pakistan, and officials in Islamabad said the next two days would be crucial for relations between the nuclear-armed neighbors.

One senior security official said Islamabad would divert troops to its border with India and away from fighting militants on the Afghan frontier if tensions erupted over Mumbai.

"If something happens on that front, the war on terror won't be our priority," the senior security officer told journalists at a briefing. "We'll take out everything from the western border. We won't leave anything there."

Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh has said "elements" in Pakistan may have been responsible for the attacks in Mumbai.

Other officials have said most, perhaps all, of the attackers were from Pakistan, a Muslim nation carved out of Hindu-majority India in bloodshed in 1947. The two countries have fought three wars since the partition, and relations have always been tense.

More on the massacre:

The commander said his men had had to literally feel their way through the hotel corridors and rooms in complete darkness.

The black-clad commando said it had been impossible to differentiate between dead bodies, the injured and people simply pressing themselves to the floor in terror.

“When an exchange of fire takes place in darkness and there are bodies strewn all over and blood all over, you’re actually not looking who is injured or killed,” he said. “You’re just looking for someone with lots of weapons on him.”

But if were just a case ofo shooting indiscriminately, one would assume they'd kill a lot of civilians, but also kill the terrorists somewhat early in the ordeal.

A lot more at the link, including the bonus treat that seven of the terrorists appear to be British-born Pakistanis.

Britain itself is rapidly becoming one of the world's preeminent exporters of Muslim terrorism. Maybe they should see to that at some point.

Denied: Off of Hot Air's headines, a denial that any British-born persons were among the terrorists at all, issued by Indian intel.

Booray For Bollywood: Bollywood actors react with mixture of introspective criticism of their own country and sappy renditions of John Lennon's Imagine.

Oh, wait, that was our cadre of actors. Bollywood actors are demanding better security and an in one case an "iron hand."


Shabana Azmi: I was on the phone with a friend in London when she asked me to switch on the TV. It's a diabolic war waged on our city and country. This isn't the time to place blame. We need to maintain peace and communal harmony and cooperate with the police. Our condolences to police officers who sacrificed their lives. Terrorism should be struck down with an iron hand.

Gleen Grenwald Now Worries the Indian Constitution is Being Shredded: He worries a lot.

He's quite an imbecile.

Posted by: Ace at 11:04 AM | Comments (96)
Post contains 1039 words, total size 7 kb.

1

The slow response was Bush's fault!!

/moonbat

Posted by: Fernandozer at November 29, 2008 11:09 AM (hfpcp)

2 -We'll take out everything from the western border. We won't leave anything there.

Hmmm seems like a golden opportunity to clean out the rats nest from the Afghan side. Fuel up the Predators.

Posted by: NortonPete at November 29, 2008 11:11 AM (fVuwW)

3 Kat-Missouri/USA gave a pretty interesting analysis in the comments section over at Blackfive. http://tinyurl.com/6chcf9

Posted by: Michael in MI at November 29, 2008 11:12 AM (s0Zrm)

4 The commander said his men had had to literally feel their way through the hotel corridors and rooms in complete darkness.

HUH!?!?!?

NO NIGHT VISION GOGGLES!?!?!

SHEESH.

THEY ARE NOT READY FOR WW4!

Posted by: reliapundit at November 29, 2008 11:13 AM (Hhqr7)

5

The commander said his men had had to literally feel their way through the hotel corridors and rooms in complete darkness.

Elite Indian commandos don't have night vision goggles?  Are they aware you can purchase them on Amazon.com?   

Posted by: Big E at November 29, 2008 11:16 AM (RWzXM)

6 "...and Pakistan warns (perhaps hoping to enlist tUS pressure) that should India deploy its military to Pakistan's border, Pakistan will (of course) divert all forces used in the War on Terror to respond."

This is good news!  Pakistan can line up its forces against India along the border and do nothing, and America can enter northern Pakistan and wipe out some jihadis.

That sounds like win/win to me.

Posted by: Kevin at November 29, 2008 11:16 AM (KO6dP)

7 Smoke, The place was filled with smoke. I don't think this attack had a great deal of planning, rather determined people creating chaos which is hard to fight.
Spent a lot of time on a vol. fire dept. training for whatever, never had a fire that resembled our training, always chaos, chaos.

Posted by: NortonPete at November 29, 2008 11:18 AM (fVuwW)

8 In fact, the entire comment thread over at that Blackfive link is good. http://tinyurl.com/6chcf9 Some have suggested that this might have been a prelude to something bigger. That this was a test-run to see how emergency forces react. And the terrorists are simply watching and learning and tweaking the operation to pull off at their bigger intended target in the future. One commenter also noted how this was very similar in nature to our military tactics on missions. The only difference being the fact they planned it as a suicide mission and had no intention to leave the mission alive. Good commentary over there.

Posted by: Michael in MI at November 29, 2008 11:20 AM (s0Zrm)

9 NV goggles don't work in 100% darkness. You need infrared capable goggles for complete darkness.

I have a hard time believing 10 people were able to cover such a large area. There must have been more terrorists involved that either slipped away with the fleeing civilians or got mixed up with the dead. If they were stripped of any equipment which might have immediately identified them as dead hostiles, it would take a few days for the authorities to know exactly how many of them there were.

Posted by: Blue Falcon at November 29, 2008 11:23 AM (SMD8k)

10 As bad as the Indian response seems, I wonder how much better the response would be in America.

Remember the North Hollywood shootout about 10 years ago? 2 heavily armed and armored bad guys ran amok for a good long while because they out gunned the cops.

I'm not saying that it would take 3 days to root these guys out but the bad guys can do a lot of damage before the special ops types show up.

Think of this happening on the Las Vegas strip. How well would the LVPD, their SWAT team or the Nevada State Police SWAT folks do? And if a couple of the bad guys get into one of those big resort hotels and hold up after shooting the place up how much damage could they do before the FBI HRT or the military get on scene?

The fact is, even in a well armed nation like the US, a handful of bad guys with automatic weapons, some grenades and a willingness to mow people down can do a lot of damage.

Posted by: DrewM. at November 29, 2008 11:25 AM (hlYel)

11 Great post!

Would you like a Link Exchange with our new blog COMMON CENTS where we blog about the issues of the day??

http://www.commoncts.blogspot.com

Posted by: Steve at November 29, 2008 11:25 AM (y1cCw)

12 I guess it's not a huge shock considering 19 hijackers took over 3k American lives on 9/11. Having said that, 10 armed gunmen killing that many people before a heavy response is ridiculous. The nature of the two attacks were different.

Posted by: The Oort Cloud at November 29, 2008 11:30 AM (nOQXA)

13

We'll take out everything from the western border. We won't leave anything there.

No problem - we'll look after it for you.  Maybe even do a little weeding with our John Deere Boeing roto-tillers.

Posted by: sherlock at November 29, 2008 11:31 AM (8V5Ut)

14 Israeli media is reporting the number of attackers at 12. I'm not sure where they're getting their numbers...

Posted by: Omri Ceren at November 29, 2008 11:31 AM (U5rxN)

15

Maybe Bollywood isn't placing blame but Deepak Chopra's finger is pointing back at the US and W

http://tiny.cc/gn0dW

Posted by: kina at November 29, 2008 11:32 AM (JpqtI)

16 If anything the police are over-trained to handled this problem. 10 years ago a few cops would decide to storm a situation like this, sometimes with success, sometimes not. Now, the amount of special teams that need to be assembled has hobbled the response and guarantees that a fair amount of mayhem will occur before the A Team arrives.

Posted by: NortonPete at November 29, 2008 11:33 AM (fVuwW)

17

"it seems more likely the cops weren't good enough"

Not so fast on the condemnation. Once the Islamic rerrorists had taken defensive positions, it made the police/military job that much more difficult.  Based on the tapes and photos, the Taj hotel is a huge building, but I suppose artillery and air strikes would have ended the battle sooner. 

Posted by: Pelayo at November 29, 2008 11:35 AM (nw+cE)

18 Never underestimate the ability of those who have weapons to inflict
casualties on those who don't.


Posted by: McLovin at November 29, 2008 11:37 AM (HNS+f)

19 Well, if Deepak missed any moonbat talking points, my list of them must be incomplete.  What an idiot.

Posted by: sherlock at November 29, 2008 11:39 AM (8V5Ut)

20 Committed by TEN terrorists? And there are at least TEN incidents? From a logistical standpoint, this seems to stretch the imagination. So one or two guys hit one place, suffer no injuries, and drive over to the next target? Or have the put one guy at one venue? If the latter, you mean one guy held the Taj for two days? Or is it three?

More likely explanation? Nine terrorists are dead, one in custody. Perhaps India doesn't want to panic the populace (or admit incompetence) so they're simply stating that there were ten terrorists in total, and hoping no one wonders how many got away.

Posted by: shibumi at November 29, 2008 11:42 AM (tZB/c)

21
From Powerline:

Apparently only one of the Islamic terrorists who attacked Mumbai survived. He is now being interrogated by Indian authorities, and information about the attack is starting to emerge.

The survivor is a Pakistani named Mohammad Ajmal Mohammad Amin Kasab. Kasab claims to be the person who murdered Anti-Terrorism Squad chief Hemant Karkare and other policemen. Evidently there were only ten terrorists involved in the attack, which seems like a low number for the mayhem they caused and the time it took to kill them. Kasab says that five teams with two members each attacked a series of targets, to which they took taxis. I'm not really a gun guy, but I can't help thinking that a few armed men here and there--citizens, if not security guards--would have been helpful.

Kasab says that the plan was to take hostages and try to escape from Mumbai; so far, at least, there is no indication as to why the terrorists didn't attempt this. Finally, this item is interesting:

According to a Mumbai crime branch official, the ten terrorists had not come to Mumbai before this to conduct any 'recce' and they had learnt about the locations with the help of Google Earth.

Great.

UPDATE: A video report accessible at the Times of India site linked to above contradicts this information in several respects, and adds that Kasab told authorities he was trained for three months by the Lashkar-e-Taiba in Pakistan. As always, this sort of preliminary information should be taken with a grain of salt.

-------------------------------

It's gonna be a while before some real facts come out, however, I tend to agree with others -- more than 10 were almost surely involved and some of them got away.

Posted by: Tinian at November 29, 2008 12:02 PM (Ohodx)

22 Americans do carry more personal weapons...at least for now. That will soon change when The Emperor bans and confiscates them. Can't have the peasants armed so they can uprise. All you gun owners better report them stolen now before it is too late. Don't wait until legislation passes and they come for them.They can't take what you no longer possess due to theft.

Posted by: a good hiding spot at November 29, 2008 12:12 PM (B/Y39)

23 Cockholsters like Greenwald need to be smacked upside the face often and with extreme force.

Posted by: Captain Hate at November 29, 2008 12:21 PM (QyCAU)

24 No need to report any guns stolen, and commit a crime in the process, since there's no requirement for individual to individual sales to go through an FFL holder. As long as the numbers of guns sold in a given year don't exceed a certain amount you don't need an FFL, and you aren't required to keep any records of the sale. I've sold lots of guns over the years to other individuals without any record of the transfer, and no laws were violated. If the gubmnit comes looking for any guns at my house, they've long since been sold to pay for hookers and Val-U-Rite. 

Posted by: gebrauchshund at November 29, 2008 12:24 PM (pY77a)

25 "15

Maybe Bollywood isn't placing blame but Deepak Chopra's finger is pointing back at the US and W

http://tiny.cc/gn0dW"

One of my favorite T.V. moments was when Dennis Miller had Deepak on his short-lived show.  It was awesome.  Deepak started on his inner-peace/world violence is America's fault, we all just need to medidtate and give up violence line and Miller began to question just how all of this was supposed to work in real life, with real people who want to see us all dead or enslaved.  And you know how Miller asks questions, all smiles and lighthearted.

Man, I thought Deepack was going to punch him.  The guy's going around talking like he's Jesus or something and all "enlightened" and he got so mad at being asked just a few sensable questions.

And now this: "You know, terrorists call mechanized death from 35,000 feet above sea level with a press of a button also terror. We don't call it that, because our soldiers are wearing uniforms. They don't see what is happening, and innocent people are being killed. So, you know, terror is a term that you apply to the other."

The man is a maggot.

And King, who responded :  "Thanks, Deepak Chopra, as always, extraordinarily enlightening."  Isn't much better.

Posted by: 29Victor at November 29, 2008 12:32 PM (kJVzu)

26

9 NV goggles don't work in 100% darkness. You need infrared capable goggles for complete darkness.

You are right, and EVERY military NV includes infrared lights for that very reason. 

This sounds and looks like the Keystone Cops.  When I saw that Helicopter in BROAD daylight mounting an assault on the Joo center, I thought, IDIOTS!

It is no wonder we kick ass, our people are better trained, better equipped and smarter.  This sort of shit would have been shut down in the USA by even the smallest city's SWAT team.

Kemp

Posted by: kempermanx at November 29, 2008 12:36 PM (2+9Yx)

27 "If something happens on that front, the war on terror won't be our priority," the senior security officer told journalists at a briefing. "We'll take out everything from the western border. We won't leave anything there."

Probably the entire purpose of this action.

Would that mean there was nobody there to officially complain about US activities.

This could  backfire on the terrorists.

Posted by: Ronsonic at November 29, 2008 12:37 PM (ywSvi)

28

As soon as I saw the "only 10" on Drudge I skipped over it entirely. There's no way in hell ten men, no matter how determined, caused this much damage over such a broad territory. So, I figured I'd wait until the revised numbers came out.

On another note, I did a post last year which was titled "Think Small" and it proposed that the megalomaniacs were the only thing holding back their mission. It's the grandiose scenarios that Al Qaeda prefers that allows U.S citizens to take the it's over there, attitude about terrorism. This was much closer to what I imagined could happen: attack while people slept. Beslan made such an impact because it seemed too close to home to imagine sending your children to school...children...and having the most innocent and defenseless be attacked.

Imagine what an armed gang could do to the psyche of Americans should a similar attack happen here, at the Waldorf, or worse, at a Holiday Inn. Worse, I say, because the average American also assumes that it's the greedy capitalists which are despised, not the average mom and pop working nine to five.

Worst of all, what if these bastards were to deploy similar tactics in a town such as Boise, ID, or Gainesville, FL, or in Hamlet, NC? What if they did it in a msall rural community? No longer would it be the other guy that they're attacking.

What if everyone was afraid to sleep at night or afraid to send their children to school? This country would come to a standstill if everyone awoke to the fact that IT IS THEY who the bastards seek to destroy.

Oh shit.

I think I'll load up the high-capacity magazine before I go to sleep this evening.

Posted by: jmflynny at November 29, 2008 12:38 PM (nhdXr)

29 GREENWALD WHINERS WOULDN'T KILL TO DEFEND THE USA OR OUR WAY OF LIFE/CONSTITUTION,

BUT THEY WOULD LET THEMSELVES BE KILLED BY ENEMIES OF IT, RATHER THAN SEE THE CONSTITUTION ADJUSTED A LITTLE DURING WARTIME TO DEFEAT ITS ENEMIES.

SMART.

Posted by: reliapundit at November 29, 2008 12:45 PM (Hhqr7)

30 If this is true, it's pretty shameful:

But what angered Mr D'Souza almost as much were the masses of armed police hiding in the area who simply refused to shoot back. "There were armed policemen hiding all around the station but none of them did anything," he said. "At one point, I ran up to them and told them to use their weapons. I said, 'Shoot them, they're sitting ducks!' but they just didn't shoot back."

Posted by: mesablue at November 29, 2008 12:48 PM (5yNaE)

31

Maybe Bollywood isn't placing blame but Deepak Chopra's finger is pointing back at the US and W

Deepak Chopra can suck my white American imperialist cock.

 

Posted by: chemjeff at November 29, 2008 12:52 PM (VLxln)

32 NVG even w/IR assist suck for CQB indoors, esp. with mixed lighting conditions.  The resolution of the photon multiplier tubes are designed for generic environment (50 to 150m) and the widest FOV possible.  Additionally, the changing ambient light (blooming) make hard ID (shoot/no shoot) difficult.

Laser assited SWIR is the way to go (or some of the new hybrid CCDs) - good resolution and little ambient effects indoors - shame even our guys don't have them yet.

Don't piss on the Indians - its a tough scenario never realistically practiced.  Lots of connecting rooms, passageways, closets, drop ceilings, elevators, stairwells, smoke, risk of a big bang or fire racing thru the old structure, booby trapped doors, civilians, etc. 

I would have literally punched a series of parallel corridors - room to room - with cutting charges, but it's not my national heritage site.  Not sure I would do that at Monticello.

Posted by: Jean at November 29, 2008 12:52 PM (HVRSA)

33

A couple of points-

As for the “slow response” by the Indian police, Bill Roggio points out at Long War Journal that the first stop for the shooters was the closest police station where the shot the counter terrorism commander and stole a police van. That one event may have caused the police response to be uncoordinated.

The second point on if it were to happen here. The current law enforcement philosophy is to mount up teams of officers immediately and start hunting bad guys. This is done to get inside the bad guys OODA loop and make them react to the cops versus just killing innocent civilians. The model of surround the problem and wait for SWAT is not workable in an environment like Mumbai, if you wait it is too late.

Just saying…

Posted by: Big Bob at November 29, 2008 12:56 PM (U4Gmm)

34 Drew,

A few years back, I was in a Vegas Hotel when the cops came and evacuated the casino level in about 5 minutes.  They had shut down the entrances, stopped the elevators, blocked the stairs and locked everyone into their rooms or controlled them in the parking lot.

It seems a guy got drunk and went up to the cashier cage with his finger in his pocket, joking that this was a hold up.  Then he went into a hallway and fell asleep.

The point is that there were 50 police cars there in just a matter of minutes with a well coordinated, practiced response.  There is so much cash in those casinos that hotel security and the police have to be formidable.  I have no doubt they could have had SWAT and/or helicopters there if they needed them.

I agree that a terrorist could get lots of people on the strip in just a few minutes, but we would be lucky if they chose that place rather than some others.  Don't mess with Vegas, even if you're a terrorist.

Posted by: Robert at November 29, 2008 01:14 PM (VotgB)

35 <blockquote>"Even if a group of terrorists encountered some armed citizens -- the citizens would not be acting as a coordinated group and would be out-gunned in any event."</blockquote>
Perhaps.  But by getting the enemy reacting to a threat against themselves and not just merrily carrying out their plan is pretty standard for any tactical operation.  A distributed response by reasonably well-trained (ie, they know the basics of cover, and how to actually hit what they shoot at) citizenry augmented by common sense would certainly give them something to think about. 
Sure beats the hell out of doing nothing, anyway.

Posted by: Flubber at November 29, 2008 01:16 PM (UDqSH)

36 And of course Big Bob made my important points while I was typing.
(And apparently blockquote tags don't work here.)

Posted by: Flubber at November 29, 2008 01:18 PM (UDqSH)

37 Lets break this down a little:

1.  Recruiting 10-20 motivated yahoo's in Southwest Asia; Easy, Low Risk
2.  Scouting locations; Easy, Low Risk
3.  Practicing maritime and small boat skills; Easy, Moderate Risk
4.  Maritime Operations (Transit, Hijacking, Embarking on Small Boats, Small Boat landings, planning for tides/currents/lighting etc.); Difficult, High Risk **
5.  Initial Assault on Police Station; Difficult, High Risk (lots of cops)
6.  Teams on foot, move out and navigate city; Hard*, Moderate Risk
7.   Acquiring Vehicles for other teams; Hard*, High Risk* (random)
8.   Leopold Cafe assault; Easy, Low Risk
9.   Taj Assault; Easy, Low Risk
10.  Taj Control Scene/Hostages; Hard, High Risk (outnumbered)
11.  Taj Blow up hotel; Difficult, Low Risk
12.  Train Station assault; Easy, Moderate Risk (more cops)
13.   Narriman assault; Easy, Low Risk
14.   Oberlin Hotel assault; Easy, Low Risk
15.  Oberlin Control Scene/Hostages; Hard, High Risk (outnumbered)
16.  Shoot Senior Police Officers; Hard, High Risk*
17.  Other explosions, random street shootings; Easy, Low Risk

*  I believe these are only possible with on scene assistance
**  If some of dead don't have maritime experience, than somebody got away


Posted by: Jean at November 29, 2008 01:28 PM (HVRSA)

38

@29: jmflynny:

I'm with you on that score.  I've always figured if the terrorists really wanted to spread terror - as opposed to simply scoring headlines - they'd find some little town in middle America and kill everything there: people, pets, lawns, trees, etc. Just Carthagize the place.  Simple, effective message: NO ONE IS SAFE.

Posted by: Fa Cube Itches at November 29, 2008 01:29 PM (RWmCt)

39

Er, reply to 28

Me much goodly at kounting.

Posted by: Fa Cube Itches at November 29, 2008 01:30 PM (RWmCt)

40 Big Bob,

The things the Indians didn't do were lock down the cell phone nets, grid lock the streets, and establish their own movement corridors.  Executing the dispersed/dis-organized response requires a lot of well trained officers.  The Indian elite are as good as anybody, how far down the chain the level of expertise stays high I'm not sure.

Posted by: Jean at November 29, 2008 01:31 PM (HVRSA)

41

I've had this conversation with several of my law enforcement friends....a team of 10 people in a well planned out attack could hold down a very large area.....although you know that number is bs....from the reports of stolen tourist blackberries this was not well planned effort...how do you go in with no communication?

 

Posted by: P.E.B.O. at November 29, 2008 01:35 PM (2J+Vs)

42 A mall attack or a hotel attack or a school attack would personalize the war for many Americans in a way a collapsing building on TV never could. The threat would become less theatrical, in a sense, and much more immediate and mortal. Civilization would continue. People would continue to travel, go to school, take vacation. Society moves with a certain momentum it is hard to resist. What would occur would happen, suddenly, quietly, in our hearts. It might seem increasingly rational to hate one's neighbor.

Posted by: shropshirelad at November 29, 2008 01:37 PM (MKg7L)

43 I'm estimating between zero and enough.

Posted by: Crazy Joe Biden at November 29, 2008 01:47 PM (NLtVk)

44 Remember the DC sniper shootings?  No one really seems to for some reason, but that was just TWO guys who put the whole metro area near max-level paranoia.  Like a random mall shooting, it IS more personalized and less theatrical than a collapsing building on TV.  And if there were multiple attacks nationwide, then it would feel like it could happen ANYWHERE.

Posted by: Dave J at November 29, 2008 02:07 PM (qsGH+)

45 In DC it took hours for DCFD to get to an airplane crash because traffic was heavy and there was a previous subway derailment (minor injuries). (Palm 90) On Long Island when a 707 crashed short of JFK 22 paramedics and patients walked for miles to and from ambulances because FD and PD vehicles were completely blocking the access to the scene- where there was no fire. (Avianca 2) Two losers, one a kid, in a broken down Caprice stifled DC for a week and totally disrupted every local police department for fifty miles and several federal law enforcement agencies. Wasn't somewhere in Colorado that two terrorists were able to hold off police and whole high school full of people for hours, including one hour or more after the terrorists were stone dead? In New Orleans they knew a hurricane was coming for several days before evacuating, then didn't evacuate anyway because Bush had sabotaged the levies. Nagin had his head so far up his own ass that he couldn't see to unbutton his flies. I am sure the intent is for dead terrorists, deranged teenagers (foreign and domestic), and disgruntled divorced men not to be able to hold off police for long periods of time in the future, but I will be pleasantly surprised if the local responders are able to work more quickly than the Indian police were when confronted with special forces of Pakistan or Egypt or KSA, or whatever country or non-state agent, has organized these folks. Response is going to vary by local officials's varied competences. If terrorists hit the US (and Bombay may have been a rehearsal for that) by striking at multiple locations in one metro area where the citizens are not armed, it will be a goat screw of epic proportions.

Posted by: Potosi Joel at November 29, 2008 02:16 PM (TPRbZ)

46

I think this is just the beginning on AQ's new tactics. Small groups of well trained and armed guys hitting major cities. Think about Times Square on New Years eve. Mass casualities in only a couple of minutes, worldwide coverage as it happens.

Just ordered a couple of high capacity mags and signed up for a concealed carry class/permit.

Posted by: TC at November 29, 2008 02:34 PM (G3Wx0)

47 This was basically Beslan or the Ma'allot massacre on a larger scale.  There will be a lot more of this, very probably in the USA too, and soon.  The answer is both an armed and alert citzenry and a national policy of massive retaliation.

Posted by: BattleofthePyramids at November 29, 2008 02:50 PM (TrHPJ)

48 What we have failed to do is to provide proportional retaliation.  By that I mean the simplicity of numbers.  You kill one of ours, we kill 100 of yours...you bomb one of our buildings, we take out ten of your cities.  That is the only thing that these terrorists and terrorist supporting nations understand. 

Syria and Iran by all accounts should be a wasteland by now and the tribal area in Pakistan near the Afghan border should be a vegetation free open fire zone.  I though maybe we were getting there when Bush scared the shit out of Libya, but we didn't seem to follow through.

Posted by: rls at November 29, 2008 02:59 PM (k4h7p)

49

IR illuminators like the PEQ-2A or PEQ-15 are useful with PVS-14 night vision goggles, but if I'm clearing rooms, I want a SureFire tac light on the end, preferably at least a 120 lumen. That's what I mounted on both my Iraq tours, I hardly ever used the IR laser.

As for how much damage a heavily armed platoon-size element (35-40) can do against soft targets, well, remember that Klingon proverb. "A thousand throats may be cut in one night by a running man."

Posted by: SGT Dan at November 29, 2008 03:03 PM (Q6BTe)

50 If I'm a terrorist plotting an equivalent of Mumbai on the U.S., I'd now look at Chicago being a primary target. Relatively easy access for Canadian jihadis arriving by ship or boat to shoot up the Magnificent Mile before falling back to make a last stand at Grant Park, where Obama gave his victory speech. All sorts of rich symbolism there. From a success standpoint, the Chicago citizenry is effectively disarmed thanks to Daley and Obama and other Democrats ,and the CPD is not as well armed and trained as the NYPD for this kind of scenario. Also, there is an outside possibility that Bill and Bernadine and other Obama mentors may launch a second front out of solidarity with these "people of color." Hey, they did dedicate Prairie Fire to Sirhan Sirhan, so don't discount the possibility.

Posted by: Confederate Yankee at November 29, 2008 03:11 PM (HcgFD)

51 Do not be too quick to discount the numbers. Well trained people with set goals, practice, and complete understanding of their mission are going to be successful, no matter what it is. The guy's analysis that I read somewhere, I do not remember where, thought that they had been trained militarily. Military training usually means good planning, good tactics, good marksmanship, which in turn means a lot of damage will be inflicted. Maybe the Indians are good, maybe not. But don't blame them unfairly. They faced a difficult enemy.

Posted by: Harry at November 29, 2008 03:14 PM (fGO+E)

52 I'm pretty sure that the long-anticipated small-scale run-and-gun terrorist attacks on malls and theaters and even waterparks -- anywhere with large crowds of people -- just went from a possibility to a near-certainty.

Hello? Sudden Jihadi Syndrome

Small scale versions of this sort of shit have been happening semi-regularly for the past seven years, and each time it's occurred the cops have gone out of their way to downplay the incidents, or explain them away as a result of individual insanity...a bug, rather than a feature of radical Islam.

Apparently, it'll take a lot more to get Americans to wake up to the threat. 

Posted by: DelD at November 29, 2008 03:14 PM (FCXZo)

53

Okay, being a moron I don't know the details of the conventional and nuclear capabilities of either country but is it a standoff or could one country take the other if they were pushed hard enough? I'm thinking an Indian airstrike on key targets in Pakistan, ya know, kick them in the nuts hard enough to make them think twice. Or would it be over with one launch?

Posted by: ErikW at November 29, 2008 03:16 PM (UlY2R)

54

May I dump my two cents with a training scenerio from my last command? 

I was the watch commander for the base when with six people (training pukes) they took the armory, dispatch, and the main personnel.  We had 25 cops on duty, the only reason they didn't get me was I was checking the guys at the posts (okay, I was getting a caffe latte--get off me).

After an hour of running around we learned that we would had to get the local army involved and this is with the ability to forego hostages, oh, I assualted the armory first because I wanted my big guns back first, then dispatch for my comms, then admin (weenies).  By the way, all terrorists killed 8-)

Give me a dozen people with MP5s and I could easily take a mall and two hotels and the carnage would be easily hundreds killed in 10 minutes.  That is scary.  You can bet alot of police chiefs will be asking if it can happen to them and learning from the lessons.  Terrorist groups too.

Of course I don't have the SWAT/SEAL/ninja skills of Christoph but who does?

Posted by: navycopjoe at November 29, 2008 03:16 PM (xz/YV)

55

Navycopjoe,

Exactly. People with know how and want to are extremely dangerous.

The only reason we have not suffered more is because the people with the want to haven't had much know how. That was bound to change. Glad I was not around at the time.

Posted by: Harry at November 29, 2008 03:23 PM (fGO+E)

56
NVG even w/IR assist suck for CQB indoors, esp. with mixed lighting conditions.  The resolution of the photon multiplier tubes are designed for generic environment (50 to 150m) and the widest FOV possible.  Additionally, the changing ambient light (blooming) make hard ID (shoot/no shoot) difficult.

Laser assited SWIR is the way to go (or some of the new hybrid CCDs) - good resolution and little ambient effects indoors - shame even our guys don't have them yet.

Don't piss on the Indians...

Posted by: Jean at November 29, 2008 05:52 PM (HVRSA)
________________________________________________

Thanks for the comments, Jean. Words of wisdom from somebody actually knows what he's talking about!

There's a lot of blame being put on the Indian police/military for not acting quickly enough.  I also read , however, an article where the head of Israeli special operations criticized the Indians for acting too quickly while lacking necessary intelligence. He said the Indians should've cordoned things off and tried to determine who was where, etc. before acting -- the classic embassy takeover routine. We all remember how (not) well that worked at Columbine, but how it has also worked well in lots of other hostage standoffs.

But then you have to factor in all sorts of other things. The Jews were probably killed right away so any kind of planned response wouldn't have helped. I just hope the professionals learn useful lessons. from the attack.

The Monday-morning press sucks.

Posted by: Tinian at November 29, 2008 03:24 PM (Ohodx)

57 You have to pretty much allow that the people on the ground are trying to do the best they can. I can't see that it does much good to second guess them. Maybe they have no experience, maybe they have no training, maybe they aren't any good. But in the end, they are the ones that face the business end of the guns leveled on them. I am all for recognizing the bravery that they showed in facing this.

Posted by: Harry at November 29, 2008 03:34 PM (fGO+E)

58 Confederate Yankee, I don't know if you're from around Chicago, but I seem to remember that one of the first things their (I'm in the suburbs) new police chief did was replace the shotguns in the trunks of squad cars with some kind of assault rifle, on the theory that 'under certain circumstances the assault rifles are more accurate than [other arms available to the police].'  Mainly that's to deal with the gang/drug problem, but this seems an obvious other application.  And Daley is highly motivated by the Olympics bid.

Also, it's really easy in Chicago to take a wrong turn and get into that gang territory, which is full of people who won't appreciate having their hood disrespected.

Posted by: Methos at November 29, 2008 03:37 PM (dRS5E)

59 Methos, the CPD just ordered 275 S&W M&P15s (their branded version of ARs) this month after the bloodbath of this past summer, but I can't seem to find any evidence that patrol officers have been trained, or that these firearms have been delivered, much less deployed in squad cars.

Posted by: Confederate Yankee at November 29, 2008 03:54 PM (HcgFD)

60

I disagree that an attack like this in the US would be quickly handled by authorities. First responders would local cops, and they don't have the military type training required.  And the attackers would be savvy enough to choose a gun free zone- New York City, Chicago, etc. There won't be Americans shooting back.

I feel a Mumbai-style attack in the US would have a similar amount of casualties.

I'm sure President-elect Lightworker Chicago Jesus will see Mumbai as a pretext to attack our 2nd Amendment rights. 'Get guns off the streets, for the children', shit like that.

Posted by: Jones at November 29, 2008 03:56 PM (VkNlv)

61

Only CCW people defending their own lives will be able to stop this kind of thing. NY and DC better wise up. We need to be armed to the teeth like Isreal.

Especially with the muzzie loving keyan commie thug administration, no one is going to fear us but our own citizens.

Posted by: bob hussein dole at November 29, 2008 04:05 PM (yl9yA)

62

I know it's complicated with the Pakistan situation etc...etc...but part of me is still kinda thinking...had this happened here in the US this week, there would have been hell to pay no matter who, no matter what.  After 9/11, God help me, I was really glad when we went into Afghanistan and then Iraq and started root'n 'em out.  

  All those innocent deaths (a father and daughter in a bistro)-there would be some strong talkback to that---some outrage.   I'm still kinda hoping there will be some answer to this.       

 

Posted by: teri at November 29, 2008 04:26 PM (Bww2W)

63 Confederate Yankee, I sort of saw that report in passing and only noted it for the outrage expressed by the usual anti-police folk.  I was under the impression that the guns were already out in cars, but if your info is right, well, 275 doesn't cover a whole lot of CPD.  Whenever they arrive.


Posted by: Methos at November 29, 2008 04:35 PM (dRS5E)

64

 #46...

I don't know what state you're in but I'm in Florida and took my class about three weeks ago. All I have to do is send in my fingerprints at this point and I've just been dragging my feet because I've been so busy at work.

Anyway, there's a great guide that I picked up at the range that I would recommend to anyone looking to carry: Traveler's Guide to the Firearm Laws of the Fifty States, 2008. It has each state listed along with their specific ownership and carry laws and their laws regarding reciprocity.

For each state there's a sliding scale of 0-100 with 0 being 'total prohibition' and 100 being 'total freedom'. No surprise that MA, NJ, and DC have the most restrictive laws. The most freedom allowed is found in AK (no surprise) and VT (total surprise). In any case, it's a great handbook to have around if you're looking to travel by car and carry your gun with you.

Posted by: jmflynny at November 29, 2008 05:00 PM (nhdXr)

65 Times NOW TV network in India is reporting that post-mortem reports of the Israeli Rabbi and his wife reveal that they were torured before being killed Thursday night. I guess Amnesty International won't condemn the Islamic Terrorists (militants in Amensty's parlance) for not following the Geneva Convention.

Posted by: truth_teller at November 29, 2008 05:19 PM (ptxhg)

66 bob h dole, While I'd really like to believe you, i don't think rarely occurring civilians armed with small carry handguns are going to be any more of a threat too terrorists with automatic weapons and grenades that police patrol officers would be. There are about 6,500 of us with CCH permits in my county. I'm sure that far less than half carry on any given day, and probably less than a quarter. So there are maybe 1,500 armed citizens in a county-wide population of 832,000 on that day. There simply isn't enough of us to be a serious problem for a terror attack. Rifle and shotgun owning civilians in neighborhoods surrounding the mall would likely be more of a threat to terrorists than the CCH holders you're relying on.

Posted by: Confederate Yankee at November 29, 2008 05:24 PM (HcgFD)

67 #56 Tinian

Unfortunately, the Monday morning quarterbacks are going to pile this on the dead guy.  However, this link illustrates the depth of the issue http://tinyurl.com/65fn3j.

It is going to go political in India and have a measurable effect on our operations in Afghanistan.

Posted by: Jean at November 29, 2008 05:36 PM (HVRSA)

68 Hey Kemp #26, that little light on your NVGs is for reading maps and operating radios, not engagements.  Twice as an evaluator, I watched entire squad sized units try an use them in exercises - I believe some young sergeants were shitten' shoelaces for a week.  If the opposition has goggles, those little lights make a nice aimpoint.  Too many bad guys read the Cabelas catalog on the can to assume they don't have NVGs.

Posted by: Jean at November 29, 2008 05:42 PM (HVRSA)

69

>had this happened here in the US this week, there would have been hell to pay no matter who, no matter what

Wrong. First, it would be George Bush's fault for keeping Cheney on board despite his Halliburton ties. 2nd, President-elect Obama The Lightworker would remind Americans that we need to stand down and let the UN handle it.

Yeah- we're fucked.

Posted by: Jones at November 29, 2008 05:55 PM (VkNlv)

70

On 9/11, 19 terrorists killed 3,000.  This time, 40 terrorists killed only 150.  Furthermore, this happened in Bombay.  I've lived in India, and to me it's astonishing that the death toll was so low.  Two crowded busses colliding could produce a higher death toll.  Every year, there's some train derailment that results in hundreds of deaths.  The population density is so high, almost ANYTHING results in dozens of deaths.  It's a matter of scale: you know how an earthquake of 6.0 in the Richter scale will kill 20 people if it happens in California, but 2,000 if it happens in Indonesia or Iran?  Simply because the population is densely packed into flimsy buildings.  The same thing here.  Despite the slow and probably undisciplined response of the Indian police (and nothing is more believable) the death toll was still very low, compared to what happens regularly during natural disasters and straightforward accidents.

It seems to me that this was a very expensive, elaborately-planned and wasteful attack, that resulted in negligible damage.  Typical Mohammedans - going for the glamour and pursuing Hollywood-style "money shots".  Here's hoping their ridiculous ideas of glory left an evidence trail a mile wide.

Posted by: Dr. Mabuse at November 29, 2008 06:03 PM (AVYqB)

71

Cold-blooded Islamic killers:

"While his colleagues were executing hostages at the Taj, Kasab and Ismail first opened fire with their assault rifles at around 10.20pm, killing dozens of people standing at Chhatrapati Shivaji railway station.

Then they hijacked a police 4x4, killing the two officers inside. Kasab told investigators they continued their killing spree by attacking a petrol station and blowing up a taxi before being stopped.

‘I have done right,’ he told investigators. ‘I have no regrets.’

 One police source said: ‘He [Kasab] was telling our people this in a most dispassionate way and responded to the horror their faces betrayed by shrugging his shoulders, as if it was all of no real consequence.’"   http://tinyurl.com/6mq2vg

 

Posted by: truth_teller at November 29, 2008 06:12 PM (ptxhg)

72 I disagree about what would happen with such an attack in the United States. Here the armed forces are forbidden by law from law enforcement duties. The commandos we saw in operation in India do not exist in the civilian police forces. They have SWAT, but SWAT has become a way to serve warrants and shoot old ladies in their own homes.

No city has the hundreds or thousands of well trained anti-terrorist police necessary. Those forces only exist in the military. What we do have that the Indians did not are some technology and a working ability to create a unified command.

Room to room fighting in a hotel filled with hiding civilians and hostages is a slow, messy business and I do not believe that any police force in the United States could do it faster than the Indians did. In fact, since we tend to try to wait out hostage situations, an incident here would probably take much longer.

The attacks have several indications of al Qaeda. Similar attacks occurred against foreigner occupied apartment buildings in Saudi Arabia. The attackers sought out the small Jewish community in Mumbai. The attackers were well trained, well armed and the attacks seem to have been planned in advance. And, the attackers apparently had no demands but merely a desire to kill or be killed.

Posted by: Chuck Simmins at November 29, 2008 06:46 PM (X1w6y)

73

Jean,

Good points all, but all those points exist at a higher level than the average American street cop. What I was trying to say – poorly – was that the mindset in law enforcement is changing. That change has come in the aftermath of Columbine, Virginia Tech, etc. Cops are now going to go on the offensive and force the shooter to react to them, rather than to continue to kill civilians. The key difference is time – the first in cops are not going to set containment, lock down streets, establish a command post, jam cell freqs, no they are going to move to the sound of gunfire and start hammering the bad guys as quickly as possible. If the bad guys nut up and take hostages then it reverts back to the standard hostage scenario, with one contingency – if the bad guys start killing hostages before SWAT arrives the good guys go back on offense and put the bad guys down.

Posted by: Big Bob at November 29, 2008 07:42 PM (spTmt)

74

About the whole NOD (night vision goggles) thing; those are the last things you want to have if you are going to be clearing rooms. It looks really cool on TV, but as with most things on TV real life is more complicated. USE the NODs for an approach but once it is on you go off NODs and use weapon mounted lights and 1:1 optics. You have better visual acuity using white light – better to tell sheeple from wolves, you have better peripheral vision, the bad guys who have been sitting in the dark get blinded by the bright lights and that all combines to give you the tactical advantage when you go through the door.

Posted by: Big Bob at November 29, 2008 07:51 PM (spTmt)

75

My current neighborhood is pretty safe. I'm out in the boondocks away from post where my neighbors are all either heavily armed meth-cookers or very heavily armed retired NCOs. Either group would look at packs of brown people with Kalashnikovs to be self-propelled pop-up targets out along the road.

#68, Jean, SOP in my company was everyone below TL taped the IR illum on the goggles over to prevent accidental flashing. The big IR illums on the PEQ2A could be useful for some things, but for houses and bunkers the SureFires ruled. Once you've gone loud, light discipline is kinda superflous after all the muzzle flashes and banging, so anything that helps it end faster is a good thing.

#74, exactly.

Nothing like a thread like this to get all the professionals out of the woodwork.

 

Posted by: SGT Dan at November 29, 2008 09:17 PM (Q6BTe)

76

When I saw the Indian "commandos" rapping out of the Hip, I realized how fucked up they were - I've seen recruits move faster their first time on the tower (ok, some heperbole) - they were as slow as shit in molassas. 

I will give the NYPD this - they have structured their response so that it is rapid and distributed.  They have a lot of small and medium sized teams armed with M-14 and MP5, heavy armor and other gear and they exercise them regularly (I work right at a major target, so I get to see lots of these guys).  They're not perfect but they have a decent plan and a good attitude.

Posted by: Holdfast at November 29, 2008 10:03 PM (hDyHJ)

77
While cops in America would, hopefully, shut down this sort of an attack within (at most) a half an hour, the success of the terrorists in Mumbai only encourages fresh attempts at this sort of thing in our own country.


Ace, you're dreaming if you think it's going to be significantly better when it happens here.  Most cops aren't trained to fight this kind of threat.  The majority of cops that are trained, are trained for a very small number (one or two) of active shooters in a single location.  This type of attack would completely tax most LE agencies, even an agency like the NYPD, which is probably the MOST prepared agency in the U.S., which still isn't saying much.

If an attack like that happened here, it will be devastating.  The fact that many more U.S. citizens carry guns will make very little difference in the overall equation.

It will be bad.  Very bad.

Posted by: thebronze at November 29, 2008 10:54 PM (MQexC)

78
Apparently , many of the cops were too much of a pussy to shoot at the Terrorists.

Story here.

If this is true, they should be ashamed that they let people die, when they had the means to stop it.  Disgusting.

Posted by: thebronze at November 29, 2008 11:02 PM (MQexC)

79

#78, one reason so many foreign militaries are scared shitless of us is we tend to be way faster on the trigger than they are. We're the R-rated movies/violent video games, caffeine, and sugared cereals kinda kids.

Then after we finish shooting the fuck out of you, the digital photos and videos all end up on the Internet with us laughing in the background. It's really good psy-ops.

Apparently the Indian troops didn't have that preparation.

 

Posted by: SGT Dan at November 29, 2008 11:16 PM (Q6BTe)

80 "...the terrorists would not be hitting targets in rural Texas, but in areas like NYC or big suburbs which are unarmed."

A major part of the terrorists' criteria -- unquestionably -- would be the local gun laws.  As always, Darwinism is largely a matter of self-selection.

Posted by: Dave at November 30, 2008 02:23 AM (I0E2P)

81 The softest of all soft spots are elementary schools in vulnerable locations.

Ten squads of ten men simultaneously take over ten schools all across the fruited plain, and for numerous days children are used as hostages.

A Jewish school, a Catholic school, whatever, just limited by the malignant imagination of this "religion."

Ten Beslans are the worst nightmare in this brand of evil.

"Release all the prisoners from Gitmo!" they will squeal (or some equally pointless demand) ... and then watch what happens.                                          

Posted by: Tonawanda at November 30, 2008 04:00 AM (IA49+)

82 Confederate Yankee is right.  Cops in Chicago don't even have shotguns in their cars.  They are understaffed, morale sucks, and when the shooting starts they are going to be thinking that that fucker Daley has screwed us again.  You take over a Sears tower, Hancock, or WaterTower place and you have many thousands trapped.  Most SWAT teams are proficient in drug busts and shooting fleeing dogs.  I don't think anyone would be sweating Posse Comitatus(sp?) for long if the SHTF but help would be hours away.  Obamas hometown, Olympics 2016, 360 degrees ingress/egress, under armed Cops, no Coast Guard, no planning, shitty radios and vehicles and unarmed citizens= recipe for disaster.  The only guy who will be safe is Mayor Daley with his 20+ bodyguards.

Posted by: dan in michigan at November 30, 2008 04:46 AM (TXV+3)

83

But what angered Mr D'Souza almost as much were the masses of armed police hiding in the area who simply refused to shoot back. "There were armed policemen hiding all around the station but none of them did anything," he said. "At one point, I ran up to them and told them to use their weapons. I said, 'Shoot them, they're sitting ducks!' but they just didn't shoot back."

Not surprising really, if true it just screams Lack of Proper Training and not much else.  It takes alot of will power to engage a demostrably lethal threat.  It takes training to do so successfully.  In the absence of either most will opt to continuing doing whatever has kept them alive up to that point.

Posted by: ThomasD at November 30, 2008 05:44 AM (UK5R1)

84 For one thing, the civilians in the US, especially in a city that had been attacked before, would never blithely watch a bunch of men, with huge backpacks, come ashore in the dead of night without calling the police!!  Or taking them out themselves.

Those people on the beach confronted the terrorists and then just let them pass!  For crying out loud, don't they have 911 there?

Different civic culture, I guess.

Posted by: PJ at November 30, 2008 06:33 AM (GVdvM)

85
PJ, you're wrong.  Most people are sheep and they'll do nothing but look/walk the other way.

As evidenced by this video (there are many others), most people will do nothing because they're either too scared to act or too confused about what they should do.
And that doesn't matter where you're from.

Posted by: thebronze at November 30, 2008 09:52 AM (H5ZGb)

86 Yes, I've seen that video too.  I still believe that a landing party of young males would be reported.

Posted by: PJ at November 30, 2008 10:34 AM (GVdvM)

87
You may be right, but I doubt it.

Posted by: thebronze at November 30, 2008 12:07 PM (H5ZGb)

88

The NYTs the favotite news paper of the TELEBAN what is neded is aboycott of this dirty rag

Posted by: Spurwing Plover at November 30, 2008 05:07 PM (ObFiq)

89 India Times:  "About 50 policemen were in the immediate area of the rail station, most equipped with batons or WWI rifles."

Poor training, no equipment, no night vision and SWAT/commandos were 10 hours away.  Good grief, we are vulnerable to this type of attack but let's not compare our responders to that crap.

No wonder the Interior Minister resigned.

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