April 30, 2013

Horrifying 747 Crash in Baghram Caught by Dashcam Video
— Ace

From the sidebar, a horrific crash of a chartered cargo plane.

Although the plane usually only has two pilots as crew, this flight had an additional five people aboard. All are sadly dead.

Posted by: Ace at 10:17 AM | Comments (174)
Post contains 51 words, total size 1 kb.

1 First to watch the horror.

Posted by: Chuck Choomer at April 30, 2013 10:18 AM (73IHh)

2 First to watch the horror. Pregnancy photos are on the previous thread.

Posted by: fluffy at April 30, 2013 10:19 AM (JgpDI)

3

What the hell happened??

Posted by: Cheri at April 30, 2013 10:20 AM (G+Wff)

4 It just stalled and crashed?

2 + 2 = Booosh Lied!

Posted by: Michael Moore at April 30, 2013 10:20 AM (rCS6C)

5 I wonder if the families of the victims will be getting a personal phone call from the CinC.  Doubtful.

Posted by: runningrn at April 30, 2013 10:20 AM (MZrpY)

6 Jezzuz--do we know anything about who was operating this plane?

Posted by: tasker at April 30, 2013 10:22 AM (r2PLg)

7 Early reports are the load shifted, pushing the airplanes Center of Gravity aft to a point where the crew simply couldn't recover.

Posted by: xbradtc at April 30, 2013 10:22 AM (+FFD7)

8 It's too early to know exactly what happened, but they were carrying military vehicles and they could have possibly shifted to the rear of the aircraft causing the CG to go too far aft. That stalled the aircraft and the pilots could not recover.

One of the most terrifying crash videos i have ever seen.

RIP crew

Posted by: loneduck at April 30, 2013 10:23 AM (n+hGq)

9 False flag. FBI was behind it.

Posted by: scofflawx at April 30, 2013 10:23 AM (hcgfJ)

10 I wonder if the families of the victims will be getting a personal phone call from the CinC. Doubtful.

Posted by: runningrn at April 30, 2013 03:20 PM (MZrpY)

 

He'll be too busy giving a shout out to Jason Collins, who's also flaming.

Posted by: Insomniac at April 30, 2013 10:23 AM (DrWcr)

11 That is so horribly and devastatingly sad.  R.I.P. 

Posted by: runningrn at April 30, 2013 10:23 AM (MZrpY)

12 Tasker, operator was a cargo line called National Air Cargo.

Posted by: xbradtc at April 30, 2013 10:23 AM (+FFD7)

13 Wow

Posted by: Vic at April 30, 2013 10:24 AM (53z96)

14 Don't think I care to watch that. Not today, anyway. Not in the mood.

Posted by: Skandia Recluse at April 30, 2013 10:24 AM (DOGzs)

15 This is sickening

Posted by: vinman at April 30, 2013 10:25 AM (nEvyg)

16 Prayers to their families.

Posted by: KG at April 30, 2013 10:25 AM (p7BzH)

17 May they rest in peace, and may their families find comfort.     Just awful.

Posted by: MWR, Proud Tea(rrorist) Party Assault Hobbit [/s][/i][/u][/b] at April 30, 2013 10:26 AM (4df7R)

18 12 Tasker, operator was a cargo line called National Air Cargo. Posted by: xbradtc at April 30, 2013 03:23 PM (+FFD7) ************** Thanks. Did the military load the thing? Or did their people? You would think the military....

Posted by: tasker at April 30, 2013 10:26 AM (r2PLg)

19 Should have traveled by boat.

Posted by: Leviathan Warships at April 30, 2013 10:26 AM (8wqqE)

20

Tough to watch.

Imagine that coming down right in front of you!!!

I think if the video came from my vehicle, there would've been some expletives...poor folks, God bless them.

Posted by: Uncle Jefe at April 30, 2013 10:26 AM (25KoS)

21 In all seriousness, that's just horrible.  I wonder what caused the plane to just fall like that.

Posted by: Insomniac at April 30, 2013 10:26 AM (DrWcr)

22 No audio from the cameraman? (no, no conspiracy. Just odd, maybe they were in awe) Prayers.

Posted by: Random 5 yr. old boy or girl at April 30, 2013 10:27 AM (fWAjv)

23 Damn. Horrible to watch

Posted by: Velvet Ambition at April 30, 2013 10:27 AM (R8hU8)

24 21 gravity

Posted by: Isaac Newton at April 30, 2013 10:27 AM (rpOAQ)

25 Classic load shift accident. May God bless their souls.

Posted by: SARDiver at April 30, 2013 10:27 AM (yrHY5)

26 Just a terrible terrible accident. Prayers to those poor lost souls and their families. God be with all of them.

Posted by: imp at April 30, 2013 10:27 AM (UaxA0)

27 I don't know anything about flying, but why was the plane floating before it hit the ground and not hard crashing? Were those our guys? A tragic loss of life.

Posted by: L, elle at April 30, 2013 10:27 AM (0PiQ4)

28
"How many free-throws do you get for a hate foul now in the NBA?"

-- Howie Carr, just now

Posted by: soothsayer at April 30, 2013 10:28 AM (052zE)

29 there was also an approaching storm, so wind shear/micro bursts could have been a factor.

this is all speculation, so I don't know how much truth there is to that.

Posted by: loneduck at April 30, 2013 10:28 AM (n+hGq)

30 YOu can see him try to turn when he lost all forward speed, 747 cargo can hump a lot of cargo, but it has to balance, and be still.

Posted by: CSMBigBird at April 30, 2013 10:28 AM (jsWA8)

31 God speed to them and prayers for their loved ones.

Posted by: Tilikum The Killer Assault Whale at April 30, 2013 10:28 AM (uhftQ)

32 /sock

Posted by: RWC at April 30, 2013 10:28 AM (fWAjv)

33
Prayers for all.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at April 30, 2013 10:29 AM (jKWYf)

34 Oh fuck. The way they are ----sure as hell looks like things are sliding around from one side to the other in the cargo. Looks like the pilot corrects for the first slide--but that sends the weight towards that correction, and he can't overcome that. Ugh.

Posted by: tasker at April 30, 2013 10:29 AM (r2PLg)

35
I don't know anything about flying, but why was the plane floating before it hit the ground and not hard crashing?

Because it literally fell out of the sky.

It didn't plummet with velocity, it just stopped flying, and fell.

Posted by: soothsayer at April 30, 2013 10:30 AM (39q3n)

36 prayers.

Posted by: willow at April 30, 2013 10:30 AM (nqBYe)

37 Repeating from the other thread. Bagram VHF had crew reporting load shift. 75 degree nose up condition before the stall. The ascent out of Bagram just complicates it.

RIP guys. They were one of the best crews out there and veterans of many battle zones.

Posted by: Marcus at April 30, 2013 10:30 AM (GGCsk)

38 747?

Posted by: Charlie Gibson at April 30, 2013 10:30 AM (uvaJ1)

39 27 I don't know anything about flying, but why was the plane floating before it hit the ground and not hard crashing?

Were those our guys? A tragic loss of life.

Posted by: L, elle at April 30, 2013 03:27 PM (0PiQ4)

Because the engines were steadily losing the battle in the stall.

Posted by: KG at April 30, 2013 10:30 AM (p7BzH)

40 Posted by: L, elle at April 30, 2013 03:27 PM (0PiQ4) It's called 'pancaking'. Not enough forward airspeed to generate enough lift. Not enough surface area to be a parachute... Pretty sobering video.

Posted by: cato the elder at April 30, 2013 10:30 AM (4BWSM)

41 God bless and keep the crew, goddamn the loaders.

Posted by: sven10077@sven10077 at April 30, 2013 10:31 AM (LRFds)

42 Load shift?

Posted by: Washington Nearsider at April 30, 2013 10:31 AM (fwARV)

43 >sure as hell looks like things are sliding around from one side to the other in the cargo. <

Cargo was vehicles. That's what caused the load shift.

Posted by: Marcus at April 30, 2013 10:31 AM (GGCsk)

44 Terrible, terrible.  Hate seeing that knowing people were on board. 

Posted by: Heralder at April 30, 2013 10:31 AM (+xmn4)

45 May Their Souls and All the Souls of the Faithful Departed through the mercy of God, rest in peace.  Amen.

Posted by: Caustic at April 30, 2013 10:31 AM (/b8+5)

46 37 Repeating from the other thread. Bagram VHF had crew reporting load shift. 75 degree nose up condition before the stall. The ascent out of Bagram just complicates it. RIP guys. They were one of the best crews out there and veterans of many battle zones. Posted by: Marcus at April 30, 2013 03:30 PM (GGCsk) ************ Does it look like the load shifts towards the back initially, then side to side?

Posted by: tasker at April 30, 2013 10:31 AM (r2PLg)

47 3 Cheri,

Marcus in the last thread said that Bagram VHF said it was cargo shift...

those birds have a center of balance most people can't grasp the fragility of...

you shift even 1200 pounds 6 feet at low speed you can fall tail first...


Posted by: sven10077@sven10077 at April 30, 2013 10:32 AM (LRFds)

48 Thanks for the answers, flyboys. That looked recoverable. I get why it wasn't.

Posted by: L, elle at April 30, 2013 10:32 AM (0PiQ4)

49 43 Marcus,

You deflate the tires and tamp it ddown hard an it shouldn't have been a huge issue.....

someone got lazy and it killed crew.

Posted by: sven10077@sven10077 at April 30, 2013 10:32 AM (LRFds)

50 I don't know why the heck I am asking that, but I am wondering if they had problems gaining altitude? You would think the force of take off would slam it all towards the tail initially.

Posted by: tasker at April 30, 2013 10:33 AM (r2PLg)

51  
What the hell happened??

Posted by: Cheri at April 30, 2013 03:20 PM (G+Wff)

In my non-moron life, I am an airline pilot. An airplane has both a maximum weight that it can carry and a range of center-of-gravity that it will operate under. In very simple terms, imagine a canoe: if you load too much in the boat, it will sink. Also, if you place your load on one end of the canoe, even if below the maximum, it will sink as well. So too is it with a plane. The speculation in our world is that the load broke loose, or wasn't secured in the first place, and on takeoff the c/g shifted aft, which caused the nose to pitch up to the point that the plane stalled.

Those guys you see throwing your luggage on a plane aren't just throwing your luggage....they're also placing the weight in the proper distribution to allow the airplane to fly.

Posted by: azlibertarian at April 30, 2013 10:33 AM (HiC+5)

52 God help the Loadmaster if he/she was not on that bird!

Posted by: Old Dog at April 30, 2013 10:33 AM (tQYJH)

53 37 Marcus,

They were Mil?

Shit...

screw it I don't know enough details to be super angry I'll wait for the NTSB report...

Air Cargo is a hard business where mistakes kill I meant no offense.

Posted by: sven10077@sven10077 at April 30, 2013 10:34 AM (LRFds)

54 Wow.  That pilot really screwed up, or that plane should've never taken off.

Posted by: Sponge at April 30, 2013 10:35 AM (xmcEQ)

55 >Does it look like the load shifts towards the back initially, then side to side? <

Pure speculation but based on ground reports it probably shifted aft contributing to/initiating the stall condition. Combined with Bagram's ascent it was a fatal combo.

THe roll was probably the result initially of stall but load shift complicates it. You can see in the video pilot flattens it out but altitude is NOGO.

Posted by: Marcus at April 30, 2013 10:35 AM (GGCsk)

56 Could have been MRAP's, they have a very high C/G, and are a bitch to secure.

Posted by: CSMBigBird at April 30, 2013 10:35 AM (jsWA8)

57 51 azlibertaria,

Yup...

as a ground dog who worked K loader and bellies, did some load planning and grapsed physics I just want you to know when i had the headset on ground guiding first thing I always did when i pulled the plug was pray for you air crew.

Posted by: sven10077@sven10077 at April 30, 2013 10:35 AM (LRFds)

58 I can't watch it.

Posted by: Margarita DeVille at April 30, 2013 10:35 AM (C8mVl)

59 The time-stamp on the video suggests this happened in January or Febuary.

Posted by: Soona at April 30, 2013 10:35 AM (uISkR)

60 56 CSMBigBird,

or Foxes....all the anti-mine crap is a bunch of wobbly goblins....

we had a komatsu heavy drive shaft slide and wreck a bird

Posted by: sven10077@sven10077 at April 30, 2013 10:36 AM (LRFds)

61 It's like watching a slow-motion skid.

Posted by: zsasz at April 30, 2013 10:36 AM (MMC8r)

62 Terrible, indeed. But let's not lose sight of the fact that, all in all, this is been a really good war!

Posted by: andrew breitbart at April 30, 2013 10:36 AM (gc102)

63 58 Margarita DeVille,

then don't ma'am don't mean you're weak...

I wish I hadn't...I almost started rage crying

Posted by: sven10077@sven10077 at April 30, 2013 10:37 AM (LRFds)

64 and on takeoff the c/g shifted aft, which caused the nose to pitch up to the point that the plane stalled ************ Ya--holy gawd that looks like just the first "variable".

Posted by: tasker at April 30, 2013 10:37 AM (r2PLg)

65 Look at the port wing before it swung over to starboard

Posted by: Vashta Nerada at April 30, 2013 10:37 AM (aq5Dc)

66 62 Andrew breitbart,

go fuck a chainsaw dickhead

Posted by: sven10077@sven10077 at April 30, 2013 10:37 AM (LRFds)

67 There's no way to really diagnose that at this point. Things break and sometimes lead to these accidents. Those guys were some of the best pilots/crew around. So I won't indict anyone yet.

Possible with vehicles that somebody missed something? Yes. But like I said, I will wait and see.

Posted by: Marcus at April 30, 2013 10:38 AM (GGCsk)

68 59 The time-stamp on the video suggests this happened in January or Febuary.

Posted by: Soona at April 30, 2013 03:35 PM (uISkR)


Different date format. A lot of the rest of the world switch the month and day digits.

Posted by: KG at April 30, 2013 10:38 AM (p7BzH)

69 WTH?

It looked like it just dropped out of the sky like a stone. One second it looks like it's making its ascent (I assume this was shortly after take off) and the next it's just falling.

Horrific is right.

Posted by: The Obsidian Owl at April 30, 2013 10:38 AM (tWmgi)

70 That was a Mercenary Aircraft that crashed and I had nothing to do with this. This flight was planned when Bush was POTUS, so do not except any responsibility. As punishment for the survivors of the aircrew tthat made me look bad, I will raise their taxes......................

Posted by: Barry O. at April 30, 2013 10:38 AM (IkHXL)

71 You would think the military....

Posted by: tasker at April 30, 2013 03:26 PM (r2PLg)

Weight and balance is obviously the most important thing. Securing cargo is such a no-brainer that I can't imagine that it wasn't done. Perhaps a lash-point failed......

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at April 30, 2013 10:38 AM (/WLC3)

72 Ugh between this and the story about the russian's having their baby taken from them on the blaze, it all sucks.

Posted by: Caustic at April 30, 2013 10:38 AM (/b8+5)

73 54 sponge,

the entire field is a majesty that can be undone by ants....tiny little ants that lead to a series of minor unconnected events that kill you

Posted by: sven10077@sven10077 at April 30, 2013 10:38 AM (LRFds)

74 erg even trollin' this. Sure sign he's got nothin'.

Posted by: zsasz at April 30, 2013 10:38 AM (MMC8r)

75 No storm, no wind shear, no bird threats were reported at the time of the crash.

Not saying it couldn't have been birds taking out multiple motors, but that is not a threat at OAIX (Bagram), unlike the AWACS that shelled all 4 motors on takeoff out of Elmendorf several years ago. Also, zero evidence of any enemy action involved.

I was working at the command center at the time of the mishap.

Airfield was ops normal and operations were resumed within an hour of the crash.

The turn you saw was just an effect of being in a deep stall. All flight controls are ineffective at that point.

If it was an AMC contracted mission I would know more, but, as I mentioned over at Xbrad's place, it was an ISAF contracted cargo mission, so CENTCOM had C2.

Posted by: Phat at April 30, 2013 10:38 AM (NBYrS)

76 66 marcus,

it's a sore spot with me marcus...

you'll note I am not cryptic at all about it?

When I first saw "castaway" I had to go throw up I had nightmares of DC-8 motors after all

Posted by: sven10077@sven10077 at April 30, 2013 10:39 AM (LRFds)

77 Boy, the guy with the dashcam seems really calm about it all.

Posted by: BeckoningChasm at April 30, 2013 10:39 AM (P7hip)

78 I talked with an Air Force loadmaster (C-5 Galaxy), and he said that he had absolute veto authority, even overriding the aircraft commander, when it came to declaring the aircraft prepared for departure.

Specifically because even those huge and powerful air freighters are fatally vulnerable if the weight/balance are wrong from the start, or if the cargo isn't solidly secured. This goes double for heavy military cargoes like armored vehicles.

He said that he had once exercised his prerogative to down the jet and leave it sitting on the flight line, when he wasn't sure about the rigging of some exceptionally big cargo, and the aircraft commander was not at all pleased with his call (under serious chain of command pressures to move the load pronto).

Later, the rigging failed when tested on the ground. When the A/C saw the results, he turned ghost white, realizing they all would have died, and apologized profusely to the loadmaster for having bitched him out.

Safety rules are written in blood.

It'll be a source of considerable anger if it turns out that unqualified civilians had been put in charge of securing the load on this lost flight. Get the people who know what they are doing. Period.

Posted by: torquewrench at April 30, 2013 10:40 AM (gqT4g)

79 Don't think I care to watch that. Not today, anyway. Not in the mood. Amen. R. I. P. to the crew. Prayers to the families.

Posted by: rickb223 at April 30, 2013 10:40 AM (GFM2b)

80 Wow... like others have said, looks like the load shifted and the crew tried to correct it... laziness on loading the cargo.

Good analogy about a plane being like a boat when you load it... learned all about CG and metracentric height while in the Navy.

Posted by: Mjolnir, Banhammer from the Gates of Hell at April 30, 2013 10:40 AM (Jls4P)

81 73 Zsasz,

These fucking flea asshole trools got their dope smoking Chicago jesus elected on shitting themselves on the fucking war and they STILL SNARK about our fucking dead.

This nation can't split soon enough

Posted by: sven10077@sven10077 at April 30, 2013 10:41 AM (LRFds)

82 Stall. To much climb, too little thrust. Bad piloting. You only get to do that once.

Posted by: Billy Bob, pseudo intellectal at April 30, 2013 10:41 AM (wR+pz)

83 Let Them In, Peter http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=2jq9eFhOqo8#! ~David Wilcox

Posted by: artisanal 'ette at April 30, 2013 10:41 AM (XYSwB)

84 Crazy that a cargo shift can alter your course so significantly. It almost looked like it was trying to do a barrel roll (not a Star Fox joke, I assure you).

Posted by: The Obsidian Owl at April 30, 2013 10:41 AM (tWmgi)

85 Good sign? -jury asks Judge Minehart for definition of infanticide.

Posted by: RWC at April 30, 2013 10:41 AM (fWAjv)

86 76 beckoning chasm,

they're dead bud....

end of story I'd have gone to the thermal pocket probably and started praying....

that's it...

Posted by: sven10077@sven10077 at April 30, 2013 10:41 AM (LRFds)

87 go fuck a chainsaw dickhead

Posted by: sven10077@sven10077 at April 30, 2013 03:37 PM (LRFds)



My favorite is from that video of the guy lashing out at the media douche in Boston where he told him to "drink a dick."

Posted by: Sponge at April 30, 2013 10:41 AM (xmcEQ)

88 Bad piloting. You only get to do that once.

Posted by: Billy Bob, pseudo intellectal at April 30, 2013 03:41 PM (wR+pz)


I take it you haven't read the comments...

Posted by: KG at April 30, 2013 10:41 AM (p7BzH)

89

Any plane that large, whether loaded or not, will not recover from a 75 degree nose-up  on takeoff.   Cargo shift will be the main culprit.

 

I think a cargo plane did the same thing in Atlanta many years ago, but that was attributed to the pilot having the trim set too high.

Posted by: Soona at April 30, 2013 10:42 AM (uISkR)

90 Weight and balance is obviously the most important thing. Securing cargo is such a no-brainer that I can't imagine that it wasn't done. Perhaps a lash-point failed...... Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at April 30, 2013 03:38 PM (/WLC3) *************** Ya, I wonder how often that company was used.

Posted by: tasker at April 30, 2013 10:42 AM (r2PLg)

91 I take the date is wrong on the camera and this just happened yesterday. I was wondering if this happened back in February and did not even hear about it until now.

As they are in country on military service could/would the pilots and crew get any posthumous civilian awards and the family gets a simple token form letter from O.

Posted by: Trevor (@tjexcite) at April 30, 2013 10:42 AM (CdeLs)

92 yeah, whoever filmed this, mustuv been stoned or didn't give a shit. weirdly and unnaturally calm he was.

Posted by: L, elle at April 30, 2013 10:43 AM (0PiQ4)

93 >Bad piloting. You only get to do that once. <

Let me make this clear. No fucking way.

Two of the top guys were at the controls. Most guys would not have even gotten the bird that flat before it hit.

Posted by: Marcus at April 30, 2013 10:43 AM (GGCsk)

94 So this was February 1 or January 2? Not sure how the date is arranged on the camera but it looks like this happened a while ago, no?

Posted by: The Obsidian Owl at April 30, 2013 10:43 AM (tWmgi)

95 Gd Bless them and their families.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at April 30, 2013 10:44 AM (piMMO)

96 God Bless...

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at April 30, 2013 10:44 AM (piMMO)

97 Hey Erg, did you see the plane fall into the volcano?

Posted by: johnd01 at April 30, 2013 10:44 AM (ukNFU)

98 Wings don't always stall evenly, and one wing will drop first. I doubt they were trying to turn, since that only increases stall speed.

Posted by: SARDiver at April 30, 2013 10:44 AM (Whcm/)

99 L,elle it's a dash cam.  From the antenna, security maybe?

Posted by: CSMBigBird at April 30, 2013 10:44 AM (jsWA8)

100

Pallets on rollers and the stop bar(s) breaks loose. Bad day at the base.

 

That always worried me, even on the low angle climb our Electra did. Shudder.

 

Posted by: tlc, no really at April 30, 2013 10:44 AM (sSU2k)

101 "Combined with Bagram's ascent [load shift] was a fatal combo."

When you say, "Bagram's ascent", do you mean the altitude of Bagram, or a more aggressive than customary departure profile to get above ground fire risks, or both?

Posted by: torquewrench at April 30, 2013 10:44 AM (gqT4g)

102 For all those who think only the Military in intense combat are heroes ( I am specifically talking about that dick who said most Military do NOT deserve Military Funerals) any one who serves especially in a combat zone dealing with heavy dangerous equipment or people whether they are actually Military or Civilian helpers put their lives at risk and I tip my hat to all of them.

Posted by: Nevergiveup at April 30, 2013 10:44 AM (9Bj8R)

103 Correct me if I am wrong, but don't these planes also have a more dangerous or complicated take off trajectory in order to avoid potential enemy fire? 

Posted by: polynikes at April 30, 2013 10:45 AM (m2CN7)

104 91 elle,

Fatigue and there are guys who are just supremely zen in the USAF game and I do not levy that as an insult....

ma'am you watch 4500 pounds get jerk lifted off the ground and t-boning a nacelle you either find God or are a serious non believer.

Posted by: sven10077@sven10077 at April 30, 2013 10:45 AM (LRFds)

105 Yeah somebody done goofed.

I hope I don't die from someone else's fuckup.

Posted by: Professor eleven E.P. (expert professor) at April 30, 2013 10:45 AM (KXm42)

106 @81 Hadn't read comments. I think cargo shift has to be the problem. Still, unless you have a Mt in front of you, there is no need to climb ASAP. Pilot had to know weight load to figure fuel and climb.

Posted by: Billy Bob, pseudo intellectal at April 30, 2013 10:46 AM (wR+pz)

107 The 747-400F has a visor nose.  So a K-loader can match with the cargo deck of the 747.  Crew push the pre-built pallets, base Aerial Port does this,  which roll along the floor until the pallets reach where the pallet is supposed to go.  Each Aerial Port has software that allows them to arrange pallets to conform with each specific model of plane, you load a 747-400F way different than say a C-17.  That CG thing.

Not sure if the 747-400F has the automated floor locking system of a C-17.  So that means each pallet once in its pre-planned position must be secured with chains and cargo-straps by the loading crew.

And we may never really know if a chain popped which caused other restraints to fail progressively faster.    Or a strap latch was tied to a bad floor point. 

But yes the plane did stall on take-off.  Pitch up steeply.  Then before they could regain control, it stalled out at low altitude.  The right wing lost lift first and that is why the plane fell off the way it did.  Then impact.

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at April 30, 2013 10:46 AM (1zr4/)

108 Tell ya what troll. If it wasn't for the military crew on board and that was AF-1, I wouldn't shed a f *ckin tear.

Posted by: Hanoverfist at April 30, 2013 10:46 AM (HiKk0)

109

@84 Good sign?

-jury asks Judge Minehart for definition of infanticide.

-------------------------

Maybe, maybe not.  I suspect you're right.  I can't think of a way that nit-picking the definition of infanticide might help the defense in this case.  But it could also mean that one of the jury members is bound and determined to find Gosnell "Not Guilty", and is pulling stupid nit-pick nonsense to justify it.

 

The question could be due to 11 exasperated jury members making a useless bid to try and persuade a hold-out by showing that at least one of the hold-out's arguments is wrong.

 

Posted by: junior at April 30, 2013 10:46 AM (UWFpX)

110  yeah, whoever filmed this, mustuv been stoned or didn't give a shit. weirdly and unnaturally calm he was.

Posted by: L, elle at April 30, 2013 03:43 PM (0PiQ4)

 

 

--------------------------------------

 

 

I take it you've never been in a war zone.  Emotions are a tricky thing in a war zone.

Posted by: Soona at April 30, 2013 10:46 AM (uISkR)

111 99 TLC,

the industry was/is pondering installing bulkhead point stabilization up to mid height on small sub 50 pound light cargo netted freight....

if they didn't have the chains taught and one went whee it was over in about 3/4s a second.


Posted by: sven10077@sven10077 at April 30, 2013 10:47 AM (LRFds)

112 Tell ya what troll. If it wasn't for the military crew on board and that was AF-1, I wouldn't shed a f *ckin tear.


If only.

Posted by: Professor eleven E.P. (expert professor) at April 30, 2013 10:47 AM (KXm42)

113 Yeah somebody done goofed. I hope I don't die from someone else's fuckup. I pray to God that I don't goof & cause someone to die.

Posted by: rickb223 at April 30, 2013 10:47 AM (GFM2b)

114 Dear God. 

Posted by: Jane D'oh at April 30, 2013 10:47 AM (lVPtV)

115 > a more aggressive than customary departure profile to get above ground fire risks<

This^.

But keep in mind elevation is about 1,500 meters.

Posted by: Marcus at April 30, 2013 10:48 AM (GGCsk)

116 I pray to God that I don't goof & cause someone to die.


Right?

Posted by: Professor eleven E.P. (expert professor) at April 30, 2013 10:49 AM (KXm42)

117 there is no need to climb ASAP. Pilot had to know weight load to figure fuel and climb. Posted by: Billy Bob, pseudo intellectal at April 30, 2013 03:46 PM (wR+pz) Ground fire?

Posted by: RWC at April 30, 2013 10:50 AM (fWAjv)

118 115 Prof 11 Ep,

Aviation is the ultimate team sport my friend as the military is to normal ones...

one bad day can murder the guy who bought you coffee....

pray hard

Posted by: sven10077@sven10077 at April 30, 2013 10:50 AM (LRFds)

119

When you take off, depending on climbout ROE/obstacles, you can hit some pretty decent pitch angles.  For a heavy, 20 and up is significant.  When the deck hits those angles, and if the load breaks, well, you can imagine all that stuff heading towards the back.  Aircraft are pretty fragile creatures, and you have to "balance" them on the center of lift that runs from wingtip to wingtip.  Imagine it balancing on a 2x4 or something.  If you keep the load within a certain "CG" -center of gravity-the aircraft can compensate and indeed, moving CG around is something heavy guys mess with constantly in order to have the aircraft fly as efficiently as possible.  But, if the load breaks free, the aircraft falls off the 2x4, and unless you have scads of altitude to pull it out of the stall, get the CG under control, and secured, your just dead.

I think it stalled, rolled left, and as there was little, if any aerodynamic controls left, the rotation of the engines rolled them to the right; as the nose came down, it gathered enough speed for the rudder/ailerons to become effective-not the same as flying-to get wings level.

But they were dead as soon as the cargo broke free at that angle.

 

God bless them.

Posted by: MikeB at April 30, 2013 10:51 AM (QSvuk)

120 The one wing dropped before the other because stalls are almost always asymetrical. Especially at that high angle of attack.

Posted by: xbradtc at April 30, 2013 10:51 AM (+FFD7)

121 Just to be clear, no way density altitude was a factor. It was not these guys first rodeo.

Posted by: Marcus at April 30, 2013 10:51 AM (GGCsk)

122 Maybe, maybe not. I suspect you're right. I can't think of a way that nit-pickingthe definition ofinfanticide might help the defense in this case.But it could also mean that one of the jury members is bound and determined to find Gosnell "Not Guilty", and is pulling stupid nit-pick nonsense to justify it. The question could be due to 11 exasperated jury members making a useless bid to try and persuadea hold-out by showing that at least one of the hold-out's arguments is wrong. *** I asked on twitter how many charges the jury has to consider. Shannon Bream came back and said nearly 300. 300!

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at April 30, 2013 10:52 AM (piMMO)

123 Nothing says fun like doing an assault profile landing or take-off.

Was doing an assault landing in SouthCom one time in a C-130.  We were 30+ pax and three pallets.  Still doing the 60 degree bank circling in for the tattered macadam of a jungle airstrip when lighting reached out and zapped one of the engines.  Suddenly it was 30+ pax, three pallets and only three engines.  With Howard being over 5 hours away.

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at April 30, 2013 10:52 AM (1zr4/)

124 Prayers for the crew and the love ones left behind.

Posted by: Hanoverfist at April 30, 2013 10:52 AM (HiKk0)

125 From both my daughter been in combat landings and take offs and seeing the training here at the Base with C17s and C5s, that looks scary, even empty. And whoever the loadmaster is on that plane, it's his or hers responsibility to make sure the load is not only correctly distributed but also has to make sure it is secured. Somebody is in a world of hurt right now

Posted by: Ma Bell at April 30, 2013 10:52 AM (RLdcX)

126 Ground fire? Posted by: RWC at April 30, 2013 03:50 PM (fWAjv) hmm, never thought of that. Might be protocol to get the fuck up as fast as you can. Still seems like the fucker was overweight on take off. I blame it on the sequester! Trying to lift too much shit with too little fuel.

Posted by: Billy Bob, pseudo intellectal at April 30, 2013 10:53 AM (wR+pz)

127 Is it a shorter than normal runway?

Posted by: tasker at April 30, 2013 10:53 AM (r2PLg)

128 Threads like this, with all the brainiacs and aviation experts (but I repeat myself) always teach me something while making me feel very, very small.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at April 30, 2013 10:53 AM (piMMO)

129 RIP crew.    Scary how easy it would be to wreak havoc by sabotaging tie down equipment although I know this is probably just a chain of small errors.

Posted by: palerider at April 30, 2013 10:54 AM (dkExz)

130  Prayers for the crew and the love ones left behind.

Posted by: Hanoverfist at April 30, 2013 03:52 PM (HiKk0)

 

 

-------------------------------------------

 

 

There was also a puppy on board.  It  was in the sidebar of the original blog.

Posted by: Soona at April 30, 2013 10:55 AM (uISkR)

131 I wonder if obama will have the same time to call these aircrew's families that he had to call that gay basketball player? Yeah I doubt it

Posted by: Nevergiveup at April 30, 2013 10:55 AM (9Bj8R)

132 They actually had the filthy abortion table in the courtroom. Defense obviously asked for permission to cover it.

Posted by: RWC at April 30, 2013 10:55 AM (fWAjv)

133 NDH. The HQ is a good learning place. In spite of the Valu rite.

Posted by: Billy Bob, pseudo intellectal at April 30, 2013 10:55 AM (wR+pz)

134 >122 Nothing says fun like doing an assault profile landing or take-off.<

Ever been to Hong Kong before the new airport was built?

Posted by: Marcus at April 30, 2013 10:56 AM (GGCsk)

135 New thread up

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at April 30, 2013 10:57 AM (piMMO)

136 @133 Fuck yeah. Ever flown into the old Kingsport/Bristol airport?

Posted by: Billy Bob, pseudo intellectal at April 30, 2013 10:57 AM (wR+pz)

137 Daughter the younger just said there were 4 Airmen from Beale AFB CA on board

Posted by: Ma Bell at April 30, 2013 10:58 AM (RLdcX)

138 Retired for the day - no verdict

Posted by: RWC at April 30, 2013 10:59 AM (fWAjv)

139 136 Ma Bell,

Thoughts and prayers...

Please oh God protect the pilots and crew your sky is so wide and the plane is so narrow.

Posted by: sven10077@sven10077 at April 30, 2013 11:00 AM (LRFds)

140 Camp Shelby in south Mississippi has an assault landing strip.  C-17s and C-130s use it all the time to practice.

An assault landing profile means waiting until last possible moment and then put the plane in a tight and rapid spiral down. Give Taliban Johnny and his golden BB gun the least amount of time to take a shot.

Which means if you are a passenger, you get one of the most thrilling rides ever.  Especially in a C-130 or C-17 and you are sitting along one of the sides of the fuselage.  You are looking at the other side or a tall pallet secured in front of you.  If you can see the other side of the plane, in the C-130s because they have more windows, you may get to see the tops of trees as they get closer and closer with each spiral.

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at April 30, 2013 11:00 AM (1zr4/)

141 101---" For all those who think only the Military in intense combat are heroes...any one who serves especially in a combat zone dealing with heavy dangerous equipment or people whether they are actually Military or Civilian helpers put their lives at risk and I tip my hat to all of them." Posted by: Nevergiveup at April 30, 2013 03:44 PM (9Bj8R) -------------------- AMEN. It's too bad that I ( and many others, I'm sure) ignore their efforts until something awful like this happens to wake us up. God bless them all.

Posted by: Margarita DeVille at April 30, 2013 11:00 AM (C8mVl)

142 Nothing says fun like doing an assault profile landing or take-off.<

Ever been to Hong Kong before the new airport was built?

Posted by: Marcus at April 30, 2013 03:56 PM (GGCsk)

 

 

---------------------------------------

 

 

Back in the day when ex-fighter pilots would fly for the airlines, on my trip to Vietnam on Flying Tigers Airline we came in very very  very  steep into Yakota Air Base.  The pilot came on the intercom and said, very calmly, "No folks, we're not going to crash.  We've just been given an expediant approach to avoid  going around for traffic".

Posted by: Soona at April 30, 2013 11:02 AM (uISkR)

143 Engine failure? It sure looks like it's yawing hard, then correction is applied before it yaws the opposite direction for good. Taliban, somehow, is claiming responsibility so maybe there was sabotage.

Probably a load strap that failed and sent cargo back though.

Posted by: Cashin at April 30, 2013 11:02 AM (TYEu4)

144 I talked with an Air Force loadmaster (C-5 Galaxy), and he said that he had absolute veto authority, even overriding the aircraft commander, when it came to declaring the aircraft prepared for departure. Those guys are hard asses....and understandably so. It's a pain in the ass to load large vehicles anyway, and regardless how tiring it is, if the loadmaster is not happy, then no one is going anywhere until things are fixed to his or her satisfaction. Once in the air though, they mellow out.

Posted by: Sticky Wicket at April 30, 2013 11:02 AM (eyJh9)

145 Sticky Wicket, the 747-400F has no loadmaster. Only two pilots.

Posted by: Anna Puma (+SmuD) at April 30, 2013 11:03 AM (1zr4/)

146 143 Sticky Wicket,

Hell I told my funniest joke once and got the guy to go from scowl to simple grimace...

(just kidding Chiefs Run the Ramp)

Posted by: sven10077@sven10077 at April 30, 2013 11:04 AM (LRFds)

147 Its said nose heavy planes fly shitty, tail heavy planes fly once.

Posted by: @PurpAv at April 30, 2013 11:05 AM (/gHaE)

148 144 Anna Puma,

it can be configured via jump seats to carry crew but yeah.  i used to be a hazmat on board if they were nervous about an incident in the jump seat...it is why Castaway gave me the shakes the first time....

Posted by: sven10077@sven10077 at April 30, 2013 11:05 AM (LRFds)

149 146 Purp Av,

"assume the glide dynamic of a brick" is one of my lines

Posted by: sven10077@sven10077 at April 30, 2013 11:06 AM (LRFds)

150 @ AnnaP:

Had a question for you in the previous thread - how did Miles Browning almost cost us Midway?  

Posted by: ConservativeMonster at April 30, 2013 11:10 AM (sGtp+)

151 That really looked like a change in CG (center of Gravity). Maybe a load broke loose, who knows. It would happen to us skyvers occasionally when we would move to exit the plane in mass. It can get ugly, even at 13,000 Feet.

Posted by: Oldsailors Poet is no longer shamelessly hawking his book Amy Lynn available on amazon. at April 30, 2013 11:13 AM (XIxXP)

152 This makes me sad.  Sobering reminder that the laws of physics are a bitch.

So can drones be programmed to carry cargo, or is there too much stuff going on during takeoffs/landings to control remotely?

Posted by: HeideRadieschen at April 30, 2013 11:13 AM (/kI1Q)

153 That look like an like a real steep take off for a fully loaded plane.  I realize taking off from Afghanistan you want altitude as quickly as possible.  As fully packed as they must be, a load shift, breaking restraints ...????

Posted by: Paladin at April 30, 2013 11:14 AM (ExWNO)

154 Different date format. A lot of the rest of the world switch the month and day digits.

Posted by: KG at April 30, 2013 03:38 PM (p7BzH)


True, but 2-1 or 1-2 is not 3-29 when it happened.  That's why he said January or February,  The dashcam must have had the wrong date/time.

Posted by: Zombie John Gotti at April 30, 2013 11:16 AM (Gkhxf)

155 Somebody mentioned 4 Airmen from Beale killed. Pure speculation, but that probably is in reference to the four killed when the Air Force lost an MC-12 Liberty the day before the 747 crash. No word yet on why the MC-12 crashed.

http://tinyurl.com/d8mq9vz

Posted by: xbradtc at April 30, 2013 11:16 AM (+FFD7)

156 Sticky Wicket, the 747-400F has no loadmaster. Only two pilots. Anna, that was a response to an earlier post about C5's.

Posted by: Sticky Wicket at April 30, 2013 11:17 AM (eyJh9)

157 Horrible to see. R.I.P. Thinking of you and your families with sorrow and respect.

Posted by: RM at April 30, 2013 11:21 AM (/Frlf)

158 "Eternal Father" hymm, aviation verse: Lord, guard and guide all who fly Through the great spaces of the sky Be with them on their lonely flights Through darkening day and endless nights O hear us as we lift our prayers For those in peril in the air. "it can bust at any seam." ----Tom Wolfe, "The Right Stuff"

Posted by: T. at April 30, 2013 11:22 AM (KeICE)

159

torquewrench at April 30, 2013 03:40 PM (gqT4g)

No, torquewrench, he doesn't.  No more than any other crew can say that there is an unacceptable risk.

The Aircraft Commander is just that.  It would be a foolish one who disregarded a wise loadtoad.  But there is one aircraft commander.

And they have the final flight authority.  The load doesn't have to go, and you'll probably wind up in the DO's office, but the

Of late, the CRM stuff empowered the other crew members to speak up and be heard.  But a plane ran by committee is more dangerous than one ran well by a good AC.

I dunno if the pilot screwed up, other than failing to catch a mistied strap or a chain that wasn't secured properly.  Thats the A/Cs responsibility too.

Caught an unsecured chain on a major piece of equipment once; when I asked the load about it, he just went white.  A small oversight, but he knew the ramifications. I never had to talk to him about it again.  Was one of the best crew dogs after that....

But once that load broke loose, no pilot in the world could've saved it.

 

Posted by: MikeB at April 30, 2013 11:24 AM (N8Ijm)

160

A theory:

Departing hostile territory so you need max climb at best angle to safe altitude. Distraction and failure to monitor airspeed up to onset of stall. The reaction of the aircraft to control inputs lags the input on jets this size. The onset of the stall is recognizable from drop in the left wing. The pilot lowers the nose and kicks right rudder to use the aircraft in order to recover airspeed and aileron control. The aircraft yawed in response but when it does the inside wing slows down and aileron authority is lost on that side. As the rudder is straightend out and the aircraft regains wings level attitude it is too slow to fly. Except to the crash site.

 

 

Just my observations.

Posted by: CrotchetyOldJarhead at April 30, 2013 11:31 AM (vzfrq)

161 Guys,

Lots of speculation here (as is our moron-given right), but listen to azlibertarian and me when we say this was in all probability a load shift or CG error.

To answer a couple of queries in earlier comments:

-Yes the SID (standard instrument departure) does call for a high climb rate, but it is in mountainous terrain and there is still a ground-based threat.

-The long runway at OAIX is over 11,000 ft and the 'short' one is around 9,000 (going off old memory here). 

-Those of us who have had the pleasure of being deployed to A-stan know that it is common to have mortar rounds land inside the wire on an almost daily basis. Usually just one or two before they bug out because the SF quick reaction guys are there very fast. I attribute the lack of commentary by the dash cam guy to the fact that (scary as it is to civilians) seeing shit blow up really isn't that unusual in A-stan.

-The company operating the charter, National Air Cargo, has been doing this for a long time and this is a regular route for them.

I was a C-5 pilot before my airline career roller coaster started and I jumped back into the Reserves, and that video scares the crap out of me.

I know these guys had full forward yoke and were running the trim but still couldn't stop the nose up attitude.

That CVR is going to be very hard to listen to.

Posted by: Phat at April 30, 2013 12:08 PM (NBYrS)

162

RIP Air Crew- be you Civilians or Military.

Center of Gravity is a Demon.

Once I slept underneath a Hmmwv (Humvee) that was strapped in the belly of a C-130 inbound to Honduras/Nicaragua. I figured if the chains popped I wouldn't care about getting rolled over...because the Center of Gravity shift would kill me anyway.

and it was more comfortable than the mudholes I slept in later, near the Nicaraguan border.

Posted by: USMC8541 at April 30, 2013 12:16 PM (IrbU4)

163 oh my god ;/

Life seems quite bleak after watching tragedy as horrify as this.

Posted by: 13times at April 30, 2013 12:29 PM (h6XiD)

164

I can only echo the many expressions of sadness for these brave people and their families.  Maybe a "There I was..." story will help.  Many years ago I was riding in the back of a C-141 making a super-steep combat type approach.  I was in the last row of temporary palleted seats which faced aft, so I was looking right at the front of the cargo.

 

In fact if I loosened my seatbelt, I could stretch out my hand and touch the blade of what had to be the biggest fucking bulldozer in the world.  About halfway down, something gave a loud pop and the dozer moved forward about 6 inches.  I was scared shitless, and I mean nearly literally so.

Posted by: Ray Van Dune at April 30, 2013 12:30 PM (bCSgp)

165 I think I have had that exact nightmare. The silence was eerie.

Posted by: elliot at April 30, 2013 12:34 PM (NCkFb)

166 163

whoa.

Posted by: 13times at April 30, 2013 12:35 PM (h6XiD)

167 "...any one who serves especially in a combat zone dealing with heavy dangerous equipment or people whether they are actually Military or Civilian helpers put their lives at risk and I tip my hat to all of them." -Nevergiveup Amen! The thread is maybe cold and long, but I wanted to remark... and so I will. Hard as that was to watch personally, I was clinically intrigued by the six or eight frames showing the pancaking of the plane before the explosion. After 9/11, what happens upon impact to those fragile little tubes was much discussed, and although I understood the physics of collapse and disintegration, this vid was a demonstration of how, under the right force, there's not much left.

Posted by: mindful webworker grieving forensically at April 30, 2013 12:37 PM (U13jb)

168 Late to the party but you have had two airline pilots (azlibertarian and Phat) give you good info. As another former military cargo pilot (C-141) and current airline pilot, I'l repeat what they said - everything points to a load shift. Regardless of a required steep ascent (not an assault takeoff but probably as close as a 747 can get to one), the crew is not going to inadvertently rotate to 75 degrees nose high. This happened fast - probably as soon as they rotated the load broke free and they were fighting for their lives. They never got the gear up - that's how busy they were trying (and failing) to keep the nose down. Truly awful to watch - this is a nightmare scenario for anyone who has ever flown cargo.

Posted by: pilot141 at April 30, 2013 03:16 PM (unkLq)

169 He over-rotated, either the weight and balance was waaay off or he panicked because he was running out of runway and pulled the nose too high, The starboard (right) wing stalled first, dropped and there wasn't enough altitude to recover. As horrible as that is to watch, it could have been carrying 400-500 passengers.

Posted by: Boxy Brown at April 30, 2013 03:58 PM (OgpUV)

170 Why does everyone assume the date is set correctly in the camera?

Posted by: Anon at April 30, 2013 04:30 PM (qjFNd)

171 @Boxy Brown. A couple of things. Weight and balance and performance calculations are very precise. The crew of that 747 knew how much runway was available to them. Even if they got to the end and "panicked", they would not rotate up to 75 degrees nose high. That is radical maneuver that would never be initiated by the crew voluntarily. Also how it could have been much worse with 400-500 passengers on board. This (load shift) type of accident could not happen on a passenger aircraft. You can't get 100,000 lbs of passengers to suddenly all run to the back of the airplane right at rotate. A misloaded passenger airplane has caused crashes in the past, but they were almost exclusively small turboprops. To cause a large jet like a 747 to nose up like that the CG has to be WAAY out of whack, and with most of the fuel in the wings (near the center of lift) passengers just don't have enough mass to cause that. Again any cause is speculation, but some of us have years and years of experience doing this exact thing. Prayers to the families of the crewmembers lost.

Posted by: pilot141 at April 30, 2013 05:12 PM (unkLq)

172 I know nothing about flying except what I've read on the internet, but my gut says if this had happened 1000ft higher we'd be oohing and aahing about the pilot who got out of a deep stall by doing a hammerhead in a 747.

Posted by: schizoid at April 30, 2013 05:44 PM (+3ib/)

173 You know what's weird? The video kind of faked me out - I have cell service via T-Mobile and while watching the video, at 1:47, I heard that dut-dudut-dut-dudut sound that's usually audible in a radio or computer speakers whenever a GSM phone is nearby. I thought it was my phone doing that, so I took a look at it, saw nothing, rewound the video to about where the dog squeals and not long after, presto, the sound again. After a second rewind I figured out the sound was in the clip, and it wasn't my phone doing that...

Posted by: Blacque Jacques Shellacque at April 30, 2013 08:39 PM (0mFz1)

174

#170 - pilot141

Yes it has happened to a passenger plane. Metro Detroit, Northwest 255 in 1987.

200 hundred people died, except a 4 year old on the plane. Crashed onto the highway killing 5 people on the ground.

NTSB claims it was flaps and slats, but I had cousins on the ground crew who pulled up the cargo lists and it shows the plane was loaded incorrectly, cargo probably shifted and caused the crash.

Posted by: Bowlnduo at May 01, 2013 05:17 AM (t/TeH)

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