December 29, 2010

FYI: The US Spends More On Each Student K-12 Than Any Other Country, Except Switzerland
— Ace

Which doesn't translate into better performance.

This is a whoopsie post. I meant this and the last one for the sidebar, but I posted them here, so I'll make them into mini posts.

Posted by: Ace at 10:26 AM | Comments (116)
Post contains 63 words, total size 1 kb.

1 Yup.  $$ != smart.

Posted by: tangonine at December 29, 2010 10:28 AM (x3YFz)

2 I recently left a six figure job, by choice.  Wife asked me if I would consider teaching...high school.  We laughed and laughed...

NFW.

Posted by: tangonine at December 29, 2010 10:29 AM (x3YFz)

3

And.... your point?

Look, our kids can spell Farmville.

Can you really ask for anything more?

Posted by: laceyunderalls at December 29, 2010 10:29 AM (pLTLS)

4

Morons spend more time on this blog than they do on their online classes at the University of Phen, Fen, Pheonix. 

Posted by: Big Fat Meanie at December 29, 2010 10:32 AM (3iMgs)

5 Had a discussion with a friend a while back about this very topic.  She was bemoaning how little Utah spent compared to the rest of the country.  For some reason, she couldn't get it through her head that the appropriate measure is what the kids are learning.  It boggles my mind that there are people out there who really think the measure of a school system is how much money is being spent, not what/if the kids are even learning.

Posted by: J. Random Dude at December 29, 2010 10:33 AM (72afg)

6 To be fair, very little of that money goes to the student's education.

Most of it goes to pay our teachers' exorbitant salaries and to the constant building of new and unnecessary schools.


Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at December 29, 2010 10:33 AM (TpXEI)

7 The day I knew there was no fixing public education was the day I learned that they were trying to teach children to "think critically" specifically about the Revolution.  Pull quote from my brother (then a teacher, now an assistant principal): "Well, did they really have to fight the war?  Canada got its independence without one."

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at December 29, 2010 10:33 AM (8y9MW)

8 My point? Or Ace's?  My point is:  LMFAO 

I don't work for useless unions who get to dictate how I do my job, steal my money and give it to commie shitbags, and then tell me how I need to vote.

Want to improve education in this country?  Eliminate the DoE.

Posted by: tangonine at December 29, 2010 10:33 AM (x3YFz)

9 Full employment for teachers.

Yeah, I know, back earlier than I expected.  Not rid of me that easily!

Posted by: AoSHQ's DarkLord© at December 29, 2010 10:33 AM (GBXon)

10 I'm getting the impression Ace is phoning it in on the title of his posts.

Posted by: Dr Spank at December 29, 2010 10:33 AM (1fB+3)

11 Is there anyone other than a libtard who did not already know that?

The States that spend the MOST per student usually have the worst performing students. If we applied "scientific method" a study of that we wold be led to the3 conclusion that spending money on education harms education.

Let them put that in their globull warming pipe and smoke it.

Posted by: Vic at December 29, 2010 10:35 AM (M9Ie6)

12 Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at December 29, 2010 03:33 PM (TpXEI)

This.  And "updated" math and history books.

Updated?  Did history from 1630 - 1885 change while I wasn't looking?  And are there suddenly new laws of algebra?

I get that the books get old, or lost, or damaged and need to be replaced: but constantly updating information that hasn't changed for a couple of centuries?  Really?

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at December 29, 2010 10:35 AM (8y9MW)

13 Why is feeding children left to the parents, but educating them is left to governments?

Posted by: eman at December 29, 2010 10:35 AM (ZTPeW)

14

It boggles my mind that there are people out there who really think the measure of a school system is how much money is being spent, not what/if the kids are even learning.

Damn, you guys are so picky.

The people that have the mentality described above  can 'gaze follow'. Don't you know how important a 'skill' this is?!?

Posted by: laceyunderalls at December 29, 2010 10:36 AM (pLTLS)

15 Cut a check only redeemable by educational facilities. Add a form and test for homeschoolers.

Posted by: Al at December 29, 2010 10:36 AM (MzQOZ)

16 For some reason, she couldn't get it through her head that the appropriate measure is what the kids are learning.

I heard this all the time during the renovation of our kid's high school. 
The classrooms now have 56" flat screens!   Learning will spike!  Of course it didn't, and there are multiple flat screens in the cafeteria showing nothing of interest, and they are routinely ignored by the students. 

Posted by: pep at December 29, 2010 10:36 AM (8lSIO)

17 Posted by: eman at December 29, 2010 03:35 PM (ZTPeW)

It's not.

Posted by: Michelle Obama at December 29, 2010 10:36 AM (8y9MW)

18

Posted by: J. Random Dude at December 29, 2010 03:33 PM (72afg)

This is a mini post.  Please limit your comments to 25 words or less.

Posted by: Cicero at December 29, 2010 10:36 AM (QKKT0)

19

Posted by: tangonine

You're speaking my language.

Posted by: laceyunderalls at December 29, 2010 10:36 AM (pLTLS)

20 4

Morons spend more time on this blog than they do on their online classes at the University of Phen, Fen, Pheonix. 

Posted by: Big Fat Meanie at December 29, 2010 03:32 PM (3iMgs)

Associate of mine made the mistake of getting his degree from there.  He took the GRE for grad school and failed miserably.  If you get a degree from someplace like that you're going to be severely fucked when it comes time to get hired or get a real graduate degree.

My wife works for a company that refuses to even recognize "feenix"  Their standing position is you have a BS in BS from a school that specializes in BS.

Posted by: tangonine at December 29, 2010 10:36 AM (x3YFz)

21 You should see what they spend per student up here. More money does not equal smarter students but for some reason that doesn't compute.

Posted by: Bosk at December 29, 2010 10:37 AM (pUO5u)

22 My son graduates High School this year.

He has seen an inconvienent truth about 6 times.  If they would just stop the BS and teach the actual things they need.. we would be fine.

Posted by: Timbo at December 29, 2010 10:38 AM (ph9vn)

23 Timbo, is he in the six-letter mega-school starting with the letter "C" and ending in "L"?

Posted by: laceyunderalls at December 29, 2010 10:39 AM (pLTLS)

24 They're not spending it on the students, they're spending it on administrative costs.

Posted by: pajama momma at December 29, 2010 10:39 AM (+6OZ7)

25 "Well, did they really have to fight the war?  Canada got its independence without one."

I actually wouldn't have a problem with this, since one needs critical thinking skills and probably needs to start slowly.  That is to say, I wouldn't have a problem with this if there were also questions like:
Why are there public employee unions?
How can racially discriminatory government policies ever be justified?

You get the idea. 

Posted by: pep at December 29, 2010 10:39 AM (8lSIO)

26 Our students are too stoned to follow the teacher's gaze cues.

Posted by: toby928™ at December 29, 2010 10:39 AM (S5YRY)

27 BRB.  Day trading and my stocks just went apeshit!  Bling$$

Posted by: tangonine at December 29, 2010 10:39 AM (x3YFz)

28 Exactly why the DoE needs to be disbanded, schools privatized and the taxes for schools completely killed.

Or not......

Posted by: Sponge © at December 29, 2010 10:40 AM (UK9cE)

29 ¡Gracias, idiotas!

Posted by: Mexico at December 29, 2010 10:40 AM (GwPRU)

30 Just proof we aren't spending enough money on education!

Posted by: blaster at December 29, 2010 10:40 AM (MrMxG)

31 I'm in San Diego, each high school has several vice principals making $100,000 a year AND a principal making who knows what, but obviously more than $100,000.

Posted by: pajama momma at December 29, 2010 10:41 AM (+6OZ7)

32 If it was left up to me I would return education in this country to the same methods used in the early 1800s.

That would be to eliminate all public education and the Federal Government's roll in it at the time of ratification of the Constitution? - ZERO

Has anyone else noticed that corollary? The more the feds got involved the worse it became.

Posted by: Vic at December 29, 2010 10:41 AM (M9Ie6)

33

One could lurk around this blog and learn more about the world than one could from reading Jane Austen in high skool (nothing against The Jane, but WTF did I care about early 1800s English society when I was a 15-year old). 

E.g., I just learned that Cleopatra was Greek.  You should offer college credits here, Ace.   

Posted by: Big Fat Meanie at December 29, 2010 10:41 AM (3iMgs)

34 Are bastard children still lead the world in dumnfuckedness. Pull the plug and start over.

Posted by: FlaviusJulius at December 29, 2010 10:42 AM (SJ6/3)

35

"The more the feds got involved the worse it became. "

Working as intended?

Posted by: Bosk at December 29, 2010 10:42 AM (pUO5u)

36 FYI: The US Spends More On Each Student K-12 Than Any Other Country, Except SwitzerlandWhich clearly shows we need to spend more. More the children.

Oh my kids? No they go to private school - do you think I am stupid or something?

Posted by: Some Teachers Union Thug at December 29, 2010 10:43 AM (7BU4a)

37 I think humans evolved to learn on a one-on-one basis or as close as possible. I bet those systems quickly sorted folks into doers, teachers, leaders, followers, etc. and did not waste time and energy bludgeoning a deceased equine. Make education private so that it can get as inexpensive, effective, and individualized as possible.

Posted by: eman at December 29, 2010 10:43 AM (ZTPeW)

38 I think Groundskeeper Willie should be teaching French. 

Posted by: Big Fat Meanie at December 29, 2010 10:43 AM (3iMgs)

39 Yeah, that Phoenix University is bullshit. Jeff D. - Dean's List, The Nick Randazzo School of Medicine and Diesel Maintenance, 2003

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at December 29, 2010 10:43 AM (FePvp)

40 Money in the school systems now go to feed illegals and build oversized stadiums.

Posted by: dogfish at December 29, 2010 10:44 AM (ELN//)

41 Posted by: pep at December 29, 2010 03:36 PM (8lSIO)

My brother (same one) keeps talking about how awesome Promethean Boards (apparently a 'smart' whiteboard) are and how they should be required for class rooms.

I really want to say to him, "Yeah, those regular chalkboards and overhead projectors really ruined us, huh?"

Teachers are worse than IT Geeks when it comes to thinking that new toys will fix all their problems.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at December 29, 2010 10:44 AM (8y9MW)

42 31 I'm in San Diego, each high school has several vice principals making $100,000 a year AND a principal making who knows what, but obviously more than $100,000.

Posted by: pajama momma at December 29, 2010 03:41 PM (+6OZ7)

About 3 years ago I read an article regarding CA schools, it centered on "white flight," the fact that white families were pulling their kids out of the schools because the asian kids were kicking their asses on every academic level.  The white families were worried that their kids wouldn't do well enough vs. the competition so they bailed.


Still true?

Posted by: tangonine at December 29, 2010 10:44 AM (x3YFz)

43 Waste of money. I don't think the fry machines or registers are that hard to operate.

Posted by: FlaviusJulius at December 29, 2010 10:44 AM (SJ6/3)

44 My kids go to a school with a full technological supply - Smart Boards and computers in every classroom, etc. I don't know that it makes them any better than the overhead projectors and chalkboards of my day. What matters is what they are taught. Three R's without all the enviro-propaganda would be good.

Posted by: blaster at December 29, 2010 10:47 AM (MrMxG)

45 "Well, did they really have to fight the war?  Canada got its independence without one."

A major reason for Canadian Independence was the US, and its millions of battle hardened combat veterans, starting to look northward like a lion gazing upon a herd of gazelle.

Posted by: toby928™ at December 29, 2010 10:48 AM (S5YRY)

46 Hell.  I have a degree in physics and can barely add.

Posted by: tangonine at December 29, 2010 10:48 AM (x3YFz)

47 If the kids learn the basics of math and science, how are we going to convince them about stuff like Global Warming when they grow up?

Posted by: Thoughtful Liberal at December 29, 2010 10:48 AM (471nn)

48 Posted by: eman at December 29, 2010 03:43 PM (ZTPeW)

Then why is Japan (class size around 150% of ours) kicking our collective rears in education?

You know what humans "evolved" (I could have that argument, too) to learn by?  Pain.  The turning point in when a child can really be taught is when psychological pain (your dad saying "I'm disappointed") is as, or more, effective than physical pain.

We've taken the pain out of education.  I'm talking (exclusively) about corporal punishment, either.  Schools are moving away from ranking students, teachers are told they can't have intra-classroom competitions, etc.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at December 29, 2010 10:48 AM (8y9MW)

49 But FYI: The US Spends Less On Each Student K-12 Than Any Other Country, Including Switzerland is at 80 on InTrade.

Posted by: The Mega Independent at December 29, 2010 10:50 AM (471nn)

50

My brother (same one) keeps talking about how awesome Promethean Boards (apparently a 'smart' whiteboard) are and how they should be required for class rooms.

I hate those things.  50% of the time they malfunction.  It was bad enough when my schools went from chalkboards to whiteboards when I was still in middle/high school, but now this?  Let's go back to paper and pencil, thank you very much.  I'd like future generations to be able to form letters with writing instruments like pencils, not just hitting keys on a keyboard.

Posted by: MWR at December 29, 2010 10:50 AM (4df7R)

51 I'm disappointed you flinched when I biffed you across the head. 

Posted by: Big Fat Meanie's Dad at December 29, 2010 10:50 AM (3iMgs)

52 Oregon public schools spend about $12,000 per student per year and there are some good students there but they mix in complete assholes with the good ones.  My daughters private school costs $3500 per student per year and the average student there is in the 90th percentile nationally in just about every subject.

Posted by: Lemmiwinks at December 29, 2010 10:50 AM (54F2e)

53 I still have to laugh every time I see the hordes of troglodytes trudging into the local community college for some "book larnin'." Why don't you go to a REAL school? Jeff D., Starbucks barista - 1996 graduate, NYU Film School, Double B.A. in Art History and Ethnic Studies

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at December 29, 2010 10:51 AM (FePvp)

54 A child's cellphone has more computing power than it took to land the Apollo mission.  They don't need laptops and Powerpoint.  Kids can't do math and science because they don't pay attention. 

That's just the technical subjects.  The issue gets more... fun... when it comes to the more liberal arts stuff, like literature and history.  That's where the teachers are really screwing over the kids. 

Posted by: shillelagh at December 29, 2010 10:52 AM (Oz4Bj)

55 If it was left up to me I would return education in this country to the same methods used in the early 1800s.

I bet those systems quickly sorted folks into doers, teachers, leaders, followers, etc. and did not waste time and energy bludgeoning a deceased equine.

We've taken the pain out of education.  I'm talking (exclusively) about corporal punishment, either.  Schools are moving away from ranking students, teachers are told they can't have intra-classroom competitions, etc.

These are all variations on a theme.  In the old days, it was okay to recognize that not everyone was gifted, not everyone was above average, and no, not everyone will benefit from schooling, at least not the traditional model.  Until we are willing to recognize that basic fact and quit teaching to the low performers, our educational system will continue to degrade.

Posted by: pep at December 29, 2010 10:52 AM (8lSIO)

56 Allen, it's cultural.  Our culture doesn't reward brilliance, it rewards what makes the news (e.g. Paris Hilton).  Sure, brilliant people find a way to succeed, but in general, the things we value as a culture (American Idol? wtf?) run at a right angle to the perseverent study of an art or science.

In short, humans won't be going to the stars.  Too busy buying shoes and blowing each other up.

Posted by: tangonine at December 29, 2010 10:53 AM (x3YFz)

57 Then why is Japan (class size around 150% of ours) kicking our collective rears in education?

In Japan they still have this thing called discipline

Posted by: Lemmiwinks at December 29, 2010 10:53 AM (54F2e)

58 I heard this all the time during the renovation of our kid's high school. 
The classrooms now have 56" flat screens!   Learning will spike!  Of course it didn't, and there are multiple flat screens in the cafeteria showing nothing of interest, and they are routinely ignored by the students. 

Posted by: pep at December 29, 2010 03:36 PM (8lSIO)

Only El Ed majors could make TV watching too boring for kids.

Posted by: Oldcat at December 29, 2010 10:56 AM (z1N6a)

59 Schools are moving away from ranking students, teachers are told they can't have intra-classroom competitions, etc.

None of that is true in the (public) schools my boys attend.  Despite their ridiculous inefficiencies, not all public schools are educational wastelands, staffed solely by gay communists and ALF shock troops.  Sure, some are, but not all of them.

Posted by: Ted Kennedy's Gristle Encased Head at December 29, 2010 10:56 AM (+lsX1)

60 Then why is Japan (class size around 150% of ours) kicking our collective rears in education? You know what humans "evolved" (I could have that argument, too) to learn by? Pain. The turning point in when a child can really be taught is when psychological pain (your dad saying "I'm disappointed") is as, or more, effective than physical pain. We've taken the pain out of education. I'm talking (exclusively) about corporal punishment, either. Schools are moving away from ranking students, teachers are told they can't have intra-classroom competitions, etc. Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at December 29, 2010 03:48 PM (8y9MW) Japan has a different culture and other nations often measure performance differently. I stand by my assertion that government education is inferior to private, market-driven education.

Posted by: eman at December 29, 2010 10:57 AM (ZTPeW)

61 My brother (same one) keeps talking about how awesome Promethean Boards (apparently a 'smart' whiteboard) are and how they should be required for class rooms.

I really want to say to him, "Yeah, those regular chalkboards and overhead projectors really ruined us, huh?"

Teachers are worse than IT Geeks when it comes to thinking that new toys will fix all their problems.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at December 29, 2010 03:44 PM (8y9MW)

Well I never missed a lesson due to the chalkboard locking up.

Posted by: Oldcat at December 29, 2010 10:58 AM (z1N6a)

62 53 I still have to laugh every time I see the hordes of troglodytes trudging into the local community college for some "book larnin'." Why don't you go to a REAL school?

Jeff D., Starbucks barista - 1996 graduate, NYU Film School, Double B.A. in Art History and Ethnic Studies

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at December 29, 2010 03:51 PM (FePvp)

Actually, community colleges in many states provide a really good, affordable way to knock out your first two years.  I started my trek through school (in the military) in nine different community colleges and had some amazing teachers.  Kept the cost down, I did my research and knew what the pre-requisites were for my BS, and those CCs prepared me well enough.

Very good option.

Had an Armenian astrophysicist for physics 1 and 2 at Pikes Peak Community College.  She was brilliant and I learned how to learn from her.  The guy that taught Diff EQ and Calc 3 was fantastic.

Don't be so quick to judge community colleges.


Posted by: tangonine at December 29, 2010 10:58 AM (x3YFz)

63

About 3 years ago I read an article regarding CA schools, it centered on "white flight," the fact that white families were pulling their kids out of the schools because the asian kids were kicking their asses on every academic level.  The white families were worried that their kids wouldn't do well enough vs. the competition so they bailed.


Still true?

Posted by: tangonine at December 29, 2010 03:44 PM (x3YFz)

I think the solution found was to not let Asian kids into California colleges.

Posted by: Oldcat at December 29, 2010 10:59 AM (z1N6a)

64 Don't be so quick to judge community colleges. Posted by: tangonine at December 29, 2010 03:58 PM (x3YFz) Agree. They are like a secure facility during a zombie apocalypse.

Posted by: eman at December 29, 2010 11:00 AM (ZTPeW)

65 Kids can't do math and science because they don't pay attention.

Kids can't do math and science because their teachers can't do math and science.  What the hell good does it do them to pay attention to those idiots?

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at December 29, 2010 11:01 AM (TpXEI)

66 Kids can't do math and science because their teachers can't do math and science. What the hell good does it do them to pay attention to those idiots? Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at December 29, 2010 04:01 PM (TpXEI) Yup. It's a runaway train.

Posted by: eman at December 29, 2010 11:02 AM (ZTPeW)

67

I'd venture to say that our cream of the intellectual crop self-select private education--therein lies a silver lining.  

As you're all aware the school districts that distort the spending-per-student figures are found within major cities (Chicago, DC, LA) that have awful track records.   

Posted by: Big Fat Meanie at December 29, 2010 11:03 AM (3iMgs)

68 63

About 3 years ago I read an article regarding CA schools, it centered on "white flight," the fact that white families were pulling their kids out of the schools because the asian kids were kicking their asses on every academic level.  The white families were worried that their kids wouldn't do well enough vs. the competition so they bailed.


Still true?

Posted by: tangonine at December 29, 2010 03:44 PM (x3YFz)

I think the solution found was to not let Asian kids into California colleges.

Posted by: Oldcat at December 29, 2010 03:59 PM (z1N6a)

The really bad thing is, I can't be sure you're joking...

Posted by: AoSHQ's DarkLord© at December 29, 2010 11:03 AM (GBXon)

69 Posted by: Ted Kennedy's Gristle Encased Head at December 29, 2010 03:56 PM (+lsX1)

This is true- but even in deeply conservative Texas this kind of thing started happening even before I graduated HS.  First, my HS only acknowledged the top 10 graduates (graduating classes around 300 - 400 each year).  Then they moved to top 25.  Then top 10%.  I was good with all of those- they kind of made sense: especially since, in Texas, being in the top 10% of your class means preferential treatment getting admitted to State colleges.  Then they went to top 25%.

Really?  You're acknowledging the top quarter of the graduating class?

Posted by: eman at December 29, 2010 03:57 PM (ZTPeW)

Indeed, and I did not mean to suggest that private education is merely equal, or even inferior to, public education.  My point was that public education would be much more adequate (and closer to equal) if we still upheld excellence and didn't mind shaming (not the best word, but I think you know what I mean) poor performance.

One reason private schools (and even "public" charter schools) are largely better than public schools is that the parents care.  But "the parents care" doesn't just mean asking if the kid has done his homework, it means grounding him when he comes home with a C (or, Heaven forbid, an F) instead of a B or better.  That is, the parents are willing to inflict some amount of pain when performance is not up to their required standards.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at December 29, 2010 11:04 AM (8y9MW)

70 A random remembrance

My son always tries to pair up with Mainland Chinese girls for labs.  Why?  I asks him.  Because they cheat, he tells me.  He elaborated, They come from a culture where, sure, it's best to succeed honorably, but it's better to succeed by cheating than to fail honestly.  Previous students tell the followers what questions professors are going to ask and what results they expect in the labs.

Posted by: toby928™ at December 29, 2010 11:04 AM (S5YRY)

71 70 A random remembrance

My son always tries to pair up with Mainland Chinese girls for labs.  Why?  I asks him.  Because they cheat, he tells me.  He elaborated, They come from a culture where, sure, it's best to succeed honorably, but it's better to succeed by cheating than to fail honestly.  Previous students tell the followers what questions professors are going to ask and what results they expect in the labs.

Posted by: toby928™ at December 29, 2010 04:04 PM (S5YRY)

The path of least resistance is also the path of least growth.

Posted by: tangonine at December 29, 2010 11:06 AM (x3YFz)

72 Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at December 29, 2010 04:01 PM (TpXEI)

And they're hard to fire, to boot.

My educator brother had a math teacher who couldn't properly work the example problems from her teacher's book.  It took him all year, and something like 4 or 5 separate "evaluations" to fire her.

If my boss watched me work one day and found out that I couldn't write a basic sort algorithm, I'd be fired in a minute- let alone cut & pasting code from an internet sample.

He's just lucky we're in Texas.  I can only imagine the trouble he'd have in a real union state.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at December 29, 2010 11:08 AM (8y9MW)

73 Re: 62 Posted by: tangonine at December 29, 2010 03:58 PM (x3YFz) Yeah, as I recall, PeePeeKaKa was a pretty decent place to get lower level stuff done. Took a few classes there before leaving Carson. I think there a plenty of CCs that do a bang-up job given their size and funding.

Posted by: Landshark at December 29, 2010 11:10 AM (CP8tM)

74 Kids can't do math and science because they don't pay attention.

Kids can't do math and science because their teachers can't do math and science.  What the hell good does it do them to pay attention to those idiots?

Let's not pretend the only problem is teachers.  A big problem?  Yes.  The sole cause of all bad things in America's school system?  Nuh-uh. 

A lot of kids are shitheads.  I went to a private Catholic school where there were some pretty decent teachers.  Even decent teachers can't polish a turd.  Besides that, smart kids will find ways to learn.  Smart people with drive to succeed find ways to succeed.  If you can sit down with a textbook and do your homework assignment, you can learn something despite your dipshit teacher. 

Don't get me wrong, the teacher's union and the DoE have done awful things to the education system.  One of those things is making people think that more money and gadgets will result in better educated children.  That is not true, because you need good teachers, but you also need good kids. 

Posted by: shillelagh at December 29, 2010 11:12 AM (Oz4Bj)

75 AP and Honors classes undermine our schools.  I'm serious.  If a student is smart enough to take college level courses by the time they are sixteen or seventeen, then they need to graduate high school by sixteen or seventeen and move on to taking courses at the local community college, or working to save up money before they continue their education.  Instead, I believe that honors and AP classes draw teacher's attentions away from the mass of students, by making them obsess over their "star pupils" and creating a fiction that somehow all students are capable of reaching that level, even though it's not true.

Posted by: Alex wishes that there was a HES group nearby... at December 29, 2010 11:12 AM (yY28H)

76 It was bad enough when my schools went from chalkboards to whiteboards when I was still in middle/high school, but now this?  Let's go back to paper and pencil, thank you very much.

If we can't eliminate public schools then about this:

Eliminate everything from the classrooms K-6 except pencil, paper, and chalkboard. Absolutely no laptops, calculators, and especially no cell phones allowed.

Restore reform school and common sense to discipline and eliminate the stupid zero tolerance policies. Allow/require corporal punishment. Severe disciplin problems and continued minor discipline problems result in expulsion with a parent/teacher conference required for return. Repeat problems result in expulsion to reform school. When age 17 is reached severe problems are booted to the street permanently.


Posted by: Vic at December 29, 2010 11:12 AM (M9Ie6)

77 Had an Armenian astrophysicist for physics 1 and 2 at Pikes Peak Community College. I'm not. I've been to night school for Accounting. Read the post again and concentrate on the signature. And hey! PPCC! I used to drive past there twice a day going in and out the B Street Gate. Small world! 

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at December 29, 2010 11:12 AM (FePvp)

78
Still true?

I don't know because where I live in San Diego, it's country, cowboy country. It's always been pretty white.

Posted by: pajama momma at December 29, 2010 11:13 AM (+6OZ7)

79 Those that can, do.  Those that can't, teach.  Those that can neither do nor teach become union reps.

Posted by: toby928™ at December 29, 2010 11:13 AM (S5YRY)

80 This should be a talking point for every Tea-Party member.  We spend $10,000 per student per year.  That means that a class of 30 sixth graders would have $300,000 to spend on a teacher, learning materials, and facilities every year.  If you were simply to give that money to 30 families, and let them organize a private tutor for their students, they would do a better job than the government does.

Posted by: Alex wishes that there was a HES group nearby... at December 29, 2010 11:14 AM (yY28H)

81 We're failing our children because we're wrapping everything in plastic and making it politically correct.  You take away 1st, 2nd and 3rd prizes, you take away the incentive to do better or try harder than the other guy.  You throw down an 'everybody wins' system, they all fail because they don't learn humility or the pride found in success. 

The thrill of victory and the agony of defeat is still one of the best learning tools there is.

Liberals have just fucked it up for everyone.

Posted by: Sponge © at December 29, 2010 11:16 AM (UK9cE)

82 also, because this is a live post and because it's been driving me crazy
My husband and I both attend that online university that everyone is so sure allows for rampant cheating, I just want to say real fast, that you have to either go to a testing center to take your tests, or you have to have a webcam on you, your mouse AND your keyboard while you're taking a test. They also measure your keystroke speed and style when you take your first test so they know how you type. They called my husband in the middle of a test to let him know they couldn't see his mouse and were going to suspend his test if it wasn't fixed immediately.

Ok, I'm happy now.

Posted by: pajama momma at December 29, 2010 11:17 AM (+6OZ7)

83 We spend $10,000 per student per year.

Maybe we should just give them a 120K grubstake and a hearty good luck.

Posted by: toby928™ at December 29, 2010 11:19 AM (S5YRY)

84 oh hell, I killed the damn thread

Posted by: pajama momma at December 29, 2010 11:19 AM (+6OZ7)

85 #80

To be even more Tea Party about it... how about instead of giving that money to families the government just not take it in the first place?

Posted by: shillelagh at December 29, 2010 11:19 AM (Oz4Bj)

86 Pajama momma, Can you take the test in your underwear?

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at December 29, 2010 11:21 AM (FePvp)

87 http://tinyurl.com/2emf66q

Posted by: liberal loon at December 29, 2010 11:23 AM (TX/Gk)

88 Can you take the test in your underwear?

That's a GREAT idea! I haven't taken my first one yet, but I'll let you know how that turns out. Maybe they'll be so distracted they won't notice the ginormous unfolded clean clothes pile on the couch behind me.

Posted by: pajama momma at December 29, 2010 11:24 AM (+6OZ7)

89 My wife took some online classes and did have to go to a monitored location, being a local library or learning center, to take her tests.  She had a time limit, was not allowed to use her own laptop nor have notes or books visible.

Webcam and possible nude distractions was not an option.

Posted by: Sponge © at December 29, 2010 11:26 AM (UK9cE)

90 Kids can't do math and science because their teachers can't do math and science.  What the hell good does it do them to pay attention to those idiots?

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at December 29, 2010 04:01 PM (TpXEI)

 

LOL... my last live in Girlfriend was a Middle School Math Teacher... was on the boards that wrote the standardized tests for the State here in Colorado.

She was continuously praising "discovery" learning.... where you "lead" them to discover how to do math themselves... yet could not figure out a 15% tip in her head....

Posted by: Romeo13 at December 29, 2010 11:28 AM (AdK6a)

91 To be even more Tea Party about it... how about instead of giving that money to families the government just not take it in the first place?

Well, of course.  Once you get them to agree that they could do a better job by simply receiving the money, then you can argue that we should simply cut taxes by that amount and let people keep their money to begin with.  The problem is that people believe this crock notion that education is underfunded.

Posted by: Alex at December 29, 2010 11:29 AM (yY28H)

92 I teach science in a poor achieving high school in L.A. (don't blame me, I just got here).  The big problem I see is a student body who come from a home culture where doing your best (at least in school) is not really important.  Even when you filter out the hard-core incorrigibles (gangbangers, the wannabes, etc.), most of the teachers (at least those who care) are appalled at the amount of apathy that the average student expresses towards their work.  Often, when a teacher or counselor calls home to talk about poor academics or behavior issues, we get no response, hang-ups or my favorite response, "he/she is your problem, don't bother me again".  The kids who do well seem to have one thing in common; parents/guardians (often we have students living with aunts/uncles, older siblings, etc) who care about how they do.  By the way, in my book a student doesn't have to be getting an "A" to do well, I want them to do their best and turn in all assignments.  If they do this, it doesn't matter what the grade is, they are being prepared to succeed in life.

By the way, I love technology in the classroom, as it can make my life easier (less time spent on entering grades, attendance, etc), and I do love the smart boards as I can use them as an extension of my white boards, allowing me to draw & diagram more without having to erase material that I want to save.  However, too often this equipment, along with computers, gets vandalized by my FFA (future felons of America) students and becomes worthless.

Posted by: Mr. Chips at December 29, 2010 11:32 AM (NxGAk)

93 #91

You say "of course," but there are way too many people, and many of them run the country, who would never think of cutting taxes.  Notice how easy it was to say "give that money to families."  It's just the way we say it.  But think about what that means versus "not take that money from families." 

Posted by: shillelagh at December 29, 2010 11:34 AM (Oz4Bj)

94 77 Had an Armenian astrophysicist for physics 1 and 2 at Pikes Peak Community College.

I'm not. I've been to night school for Accounting. Read the post again and concentrate on the signature.

And hey! PPCC! I used to drive past there twice a day going in and out the B Street Gate. Small world! 

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at December 29, 2010 04:12 PM (FePvp)

LOL all you army grunts have to come through Carson or Benning.  It's just a matter of setting the traps

Posted by: tangonine at December 29, 2010 11:36 AM (x3YFz)

95 She was continuously praising "discovery" learning.... where you "lead" them to discover how to do math themselves... yet could not figure out a 15% tip in her head....

God I hate that.  It's like the "Whole Word" reading crap that undermined my cousin early in his life.  I spend an hour teaching him phonetics and his reading went up a grade level (no, really).  Critical thinking is built upon an established body of knowledge.  In the case of mathematics, that is basic arithmetic and algebra. 

Posted by: Alex at December 29, 2010 11:36 AM (yY28H)

96 I do love the smart boards as I can use them as an extension of my white boards, allowing me to draw & diagram more without having to erase material that I want to save

I agree with you. The smart boards are a great, useful technology. I LOVE seeing them used in the classroom. They're a worthwhile investment.

Posted by: pajama momma at December 29, 2010 11:37 AM (+6OZ7)

97 The smart boards are a great, useful technology. I LOVE seeing them used in the classroom. They're a worthwhile investment.

I keep seeing that as Smart Broads, and nodding.

Posted by: toby928™ at December 29, 2010 11:40 AM (S5YRY)

98 You say "of course," but there are way too many people, and many of them run the country, who would never think of cutting taxes.  Notice how easy it was to say "give that money to families."  It's just the way we say it.  But think about what that means versus "not take that money from families."

I understand, and my choice of words was deliberate.  The first step is convincing people that they can't trust government to do a better job than they could on their own.  Unfortunately, too many conservatives, IMHO, act like everyone sees things their way.  The sad truth is that too many people are used to assuming that the government must be running things efficiently, and that any failure is due to poor funding / lack of power by school officials. 

Posted by: Alex at December 29, 2010 11:41 AM (yY28H)

99

When I went to school, the vietnamese boat people were entering our school. They formerly went to schools with dirt/wooden floors and air conditioning was unheard of. They knew almost no English when they arrived, but 4 years later they were Valedictorian/Honors students. Money has never equalled education. Studying and hard work = education. Get rid of video games, TV and now cell phones, and see if education scores get better and an added bonus for Moochelle, they will not be as fat.

Posted by: Schwalbe © at December 29, 2010 11:41 AM (UU0OF)

100 In the case of mathematics, that is basic arithmetic and algebra. 

Posted by: Alex at December 29, 2010 04:36 PM (yY28H)

Yep, I'm a proponent of Kill and Drill for math...

Heck, Navy Nuc School we used to do Mad Minutes, where they would give us sheets of basic math problems and you had a Minute to do as many as possible...

One thing I kept asking her, was it took a couple of thousand years of Math for Calculus to be discovered, but under her theory every student would have to basicly have to be as smart as Newton?? so they could "rediscover" it???

Posted by: Romeo13 at December 29, 2010 11:42 AM (AdK6a)

101 Ace, this is not true. Throwing money at US schools HAS produced superior performances.

Steve Sailer has broken out PISA scores by race, and compared them to foreign nations. So Asian students in the US outperform every nation except Shanghai-China (probably cooked that test). White kids in the US outperform ever European nation save Finland. Black kids outperform Trinidad-Tobago (no African nation took the test). Mexican kids in the US outperform ... Mexican kids in MEXICO!

All by considerable margins.

What we cannot do, and NO NATION HAS DONE, is close the Asian-White gap, the White-Mexican gap, and the Mexican-Black gap. NE Asian kids outperform White kids by significant margins, White kids outperform Mexican kids by larger margins, and Black kids by even larger margins.

In other news, no one who was not of West African descent has been a FINALIST in the Men's 100 Meter dash in the Olympics since the boycott Olympics in 1980. Wow, big surprise.

The US cannot turn Mexican and Black kids into Asian ones, who study all the time and hang out at the Library on a Saturday night. We cannot turn them even into White kids, who will occasionally visit a Library, and sometimes study.

This means if we want to increase educational effectiveness, we must limit Mexican kids entry into the US and get rid of as many as we can who are here now. Given that we are competing with China, Japan, South Korea, and Singapore. Mexican (and Black) kids are no more going to be competitive with the top cognitive global elite than peasants from Chiapas are going to be NBA Centers any time soon.

Duh, educational achievement is like athletic achievement. All the coaching and hard work mean nothing if you don't have the physical attributes required to be successful. John Wooden returned could not coach up a bunch of short, fat, unathletic kids into NCAA champs. Lane Kiffin and Sean Payton can't coach a bunch of short, fat, couch potatoes into football powerhouses. Spending money, time, and effort on education is worthwhile -- but only for those who have the cognitive ability to make the investment pay off. And just like athletic ability, cognitive ability is not evenly distributed among all groups.

Posted by: whiskey at December 29, 2010 11:44 AM (L03mw)

102 I keep seeing that as Smart Broads.....

Well we know that can't be right.

DOH!

Posted by: pajama momma at December 29, 2010 11:44 AM (+6OZ7)

103 Yes, but if we just paid teachers like we pay pro athletes and pro athletes what we pay teachers, everyone would be a big success and inequality would disappear forever.

Posted by: Warden at December 29, 2010 11:46 AM (HzhBE)

104 Yes, but if we just paid teachers like we pay pro athletes and pro athletes what we pay teachers, everyone would be a big success and inequality would disappear forever.

Oh and don't forget those nasty CEO's!

Posted by: pajama momma at December 29, 2010 11:48 AM (+6OZ7)

105

Yep, I'm a proponent of Kill and Drill for math...

Heck, Navy Nuc School we used to do Mad Minutes, where they would give us sheets of basic math problems and you had a Minute to do as many as possible...

One thing I kept asking her, was it took a couple of thousand years of Math for Calculus to be discovered, but under her theory every student would have to basicly have to be as smart as Newton?? so they could "rediscover" it???

HS students should take exit examinations their junior year (senior year would be a transitional year, with classes to prepare them for life as an adult), and the math portion would be 100 questions, randomly chosen from 1000 possible, covering basic algebra, arithmetic and geometry problems.  Maybe 20 of those would be story problems.  You'd have 50 minutes do do them, and would be required to get at least a seventy percent to pass.    


Posted by: Alex at December 29, 2010 11:48 AM (yY28H)

106 When I was in HS, many of our teachers were incredibly smart older women.  While they were capable of being CEOs or executives, they came of age when there were fewer respectable jobs for a smart woman.  Teaching was one that was.   Greater opportunity for women has hurt the chillin's in that regard.

Posted by: toby928™ at December 29, 2010 11:51 AM (S5YRY)

107 One thing that no one talks about when we see these reports, is that the US generally scores about 10-15% below the number one finisher.  This is not as awful a gap as people would have you believe, based on the raw scores.  If Hong Kong students score 600/1000, and US students score 500/1000, then I'm not particularly worried about how we're doing compared to the rest of the world.  Especially once you consider the social problems that many of these top performing countries face.  Asian countries in particular are rife with problems that can be traced back to this obsession with education performance and the pressure that it puts on students.

Posted by: Alex at December 29, 2010 11:53 AM (yY28H)

108 105
Here in California we have a HS exit exam.  We administer it starting in the 10th grade and students have until the end of their senior year to pass both parts (math & English).  Sounds good, until you consider that the test is written to about 8th grade level!  You see, during the development of the test, the state found out that if they tested high school level material, the pass rates were horrific, especially in certain subgroups of students (I will leave it to the readers to figure out what that means).  The test was progressively dumbed down to where it is today, and their are still folks who say it is an unfair test (by the way, that includes some teachers). 
By the way, please pay me like a pro athlete!  I went into teaching because I enjoyed teaching while in the Army, not for the money.

Posted by: Mr. Chips at December 29, 2010 12:00 PM (NxGAk)

109

Steve Sailer has broken out PISA scores by race, and compared them to foreign nations

Fascinating. I looked at the graph he created and you know what I found about U.S. PISA scores?

Asian kids perform worse than white kids in math, losing 512 to 506, but outperformed whites in reading by a significant margin, 541 to 525.

So much for that stereotype.

Posted by: Warden at December 29, 2010 12:00 PM (HzhBE)

110

She was continuously praising "discovery" learning.... where you "lead" them to discover how to do math themselves... yet could not figure out a 15% tip in her head....

Posted by: Romeo13 at December 29, 2010 04:28 PM (AdK6a)

Any teaching theory that denies that information should flows out from the one who knows it and then into the heads that don't is ipso facto garbage.

Posted by: Oldcat at December 29, 2010 12:27 PM (z1N6a)

111 And how many Finns or Swiss can you name that recently provided more in the way of science, math, or reading, than American students?   The OECD tests are taken in those countries by certain students, in our country we bribe inner city schools to take the tests to represent us.

Posted by: Doug at December 29, 2010 12:44 PM (gUGI6)

112 Posted by: Mr. Chips at December 29, 2010 05:00 PM (NxGAk)

We do the same thing here in Texas.

And, the thing is, I wouldn't mind that- IF we admitted that all public school was supposed to do was prepare you for a life of flipping burgers or stocking shelves.  Instead, we expect people who can only reliably be counted on to do 8th grade math to get Ph.D.s in Math.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at December 29, 2010 01:24 PM (8y9MW)

113 conservatives seem to never choose the teaching profession. They have abandoned our children to the liberals, how sad is that?

Posted by: archie bunker at December 29, 2010 01:30 PM (0YS61)

114

archie bunker at December 29, 2010 06:30 PM (0YS61)

Actually, my dad taught accounting for almost 40 years, jackass.

 

Oh, you meant teach all the bullshit classes like the sociology class you teach.

No, conservatives don't generally do that.

 

Posted by: Warden at December 29, 2010 01:33 PM (HzhBE)

115 "Here in California we have a HS exit exam. We administer it starting in the 10th grade and students have until the end of their senior year to pass both parts (math & English). Sounds good, until you consider that the test is written to about 8th grade level! You see, during the development of the test, the state found out that if they tested high school level material, the pass rates were horrific, especially in certain subgroups of students." My stepson is a recent immigrant from Taiwan. He was taking ESLl english and passed the English portion of that test. Idiotic test.

Posted by: sexypig at December 29, 2010 07:12 PM (UmEOs)

Posted by: ngekngok at December 31, 2010 06:52 AM (K///b)

Hide Comments | Add Comment

Comments are disabled. Post is locked.
144kb generated in CPU 0.14, elapsed 1.2129 seconds.
62 queries taking 1.112 seconds, 352 records returned.
Powered by Minx 1.1.6c-pink.