July 31, 2006

Future of Mel Gibson's ABC TV Holocaust Miniseries In Doubt
— Ace

Yeahhhh... I'd imagine so.

Gibson, who apologized Saturday for making "despicable" remarks in what was described as an anti-Semitic tirade after a drunk-driving arrest, in some ways now finds himself at the mercy of a Hollywood establishment that may or may not be inclined to extend forgiveness.

His most immediate issue is with Walt Disney, which is distributing Apocalypto and that also, through its ABC television network, has a development deal with his company to make a miniseries about the Holocaust.

Several prominent critics of The Passion already have stepped forward to suggest that Gibson, who denied there was an anti-Semitic undercurrent in his movie about the last hours in the life of Christ, has now shown his true colors.

"Mel Gibson's apology is unremorseful and insufficient," said Abraham Foxman, national director of the Anti-Defamation League, who added: "His tirade finally reveals his true self and shows that his protestations during the debate over his film The Passion of the Christ that he is such a tolerant, loving person, were a sham."

Foxman called on Hollywood executives to "realize the bigot in their midst" and "distance themselves from this anti-Semite."

Rabbi Abraham Cooper, associate dean of the Simon Wiesenthal Center, urged Gibson to drop the Holocaust project, saying it would be "inappropriate."

Particularly inappropriate, executives feel, is Gibson's proposed marketing campaign, which promises "the feel-good roller-coaster thrill-ride of the autumn!"

Yes, I kick men when they're down. That always seemed to me to be the best time to kick them. If you kick a man who's on his feet, you stand a very good chance of getting beaten senseless.

In all seriousness, though, the Gibson Holocaust minseries always seemed to be a bit of an attempt to molify Hollywood's Jewish community for perceived antisemitism in The Passion. Given Gibson's latest outburst, he can't mollify with such a project anymore.

You can't have a miniseries depicting the horrors of the Holocaust where you're wondering if the producer intends it as a cautionary tale for humanity, or a cautionary tale specifically for the Jews, "who start all the wars."

BTW, I've always been a huge fan of Gibson's -- I can quote just about all twenty of the spoken lines in Road Warrior -- and I defended him through what i believed was an unfair smear campaign during the days of The Passion, so I really take no special joy in running down a man I once thought was pretty damn cool and had a pretty good bead on things.

But the guy hates Jews. It's just the way it is.


Posted by: Ace at 08:32 PM | Comments (100)
Post contains 449 words, total size 3 kb.

1 Jews killed Jesus.

It's true. The point being, Jesus was killed by his peers. The point being, Jesus was killed by "us", not "them".

Posted by: sandy burger at July 31, 2006 09:33 PM (zHO88)

2 Note to Mel Gibson's father:

That stupid crap you spouted at your son while he was growing up has just cost him his lucrative career. Nice going, jackass.

Posted by: sandy burger at July 31, 2006 09:35 PM (zHO88)

3 he's obviously a bigot, but i don't know about hating Jews. does he personally hate every Jew he comes across?

not that that changes the fact that he's antisemitic. but you can have irrational, bigoted views of a religion/race/whatever without hating everyone who belongs to it.

Posted by: Trey Stone at July 31, 2006 09:53 PM (P7Apl)

4 though i can definitely see OBL releasing a new tape going, "Mel Gibson, an American but one I agree with..."

like he did with William Blum before.

Posted by: Trey Stone at July 31, 2006 09:56 PM (P7Apl)

5 Gibson is reputed to be worth $850 million. I would still trade his life for mine.

Posted by: shawn at July 31, 2006 10:08 PM (gIhLq)

6 Given Gibson's latest outburst, he can't mollify with such a project anymore.

What Would Chris Klien Do?

Posted by: VRWC Agent at August 01, 2006 12:15 AM (Z3AmO)

7 Of course, as men who live the Ace of Spades Lifestyle, we must also admit - after grappling with a bottle of tequila, *all* of us say things we don't really mean, ranging from our past exploits, to our careers, to what we would or would not do if a particular lady agreed to join us alone. This could have just been a vapor

Posted by: Deep Thought at August 01, 2006 12:48 AM (U2bNV)

8 Talk about a chip on the shoulder, people who can't accept an outright apology have more than a problem as they re-create muck so as to disallow resolution. "Me, me, it's all about me" is as sick as it gets in this world of blatant self interest. We all had parents, and while growing up, we all said to ourselves, "I'll never be like that." After we "grow up" we manage to get over most of our parents' hang-ups and deal with life on our own footing. But put heavy drinking into life's recipe, and you have your old man coming out of your mouth while you're in a drunken stupor. As far as Gibson's concerned, he's dealing with his own hang-ups and anyone who says that they are more righteous than that is just another bigot. It is the people who won't admit their faults that you have to shun, the ones throwing rocks from their self-perceived pedestals. To vindicate one's inability to accept an apology by thinking "I'd never say that" doesn't much matter when there are worse things that one does in anger or indignation such as to never forgive another's stupidity.

Posted by: Lynn at August 01, 2006 12:59 AM (RqXgS)

9 "Jews killed Jesus."

And what about the Romans? You know, the ones who nailed Him down, the ones whose method of execution crucifixion was. What were they, chopped liver?

Damn Jews. Always stealing the limelight. And secreting it away in their gold-filled secret offshore bank accounts.

Posted by: Andrea Harris at August 01, 2006 01:29 AM (3mOj2)

10 And to think if Gibson had just said "neocon" instead of "Jew," the left would have embraced him. Air America would have invited him on to speak. Heck, Hollywood would have greenlighted a whole movie called Air America with Gibson as the star.

Posted by: caspera at August 01, 2006 01:32 AM (jylGY)

11 Sorry, but Gibson's flirted with anti-Semitism for some time now; it's only recently that he's made his true feelings clear.

His apology was pretty lukewarm, at best, and didn't specifically mention the Jew-hating stuff. If the anti-Semitism was really off the mark, it would've done him some good to have addressed it in his apology. He didn't.

Sometimes, just saying "I'm sorry" doesn't entirely cut it. Perhaps when Gibson attacks self-righteous scolds in his next tirade, he'll get a bit more condemnation from Lynn, but right now, he's playing in the anti-Semites' backyard.

Posted by: Dave D at August 01, 2006 01:55 AM (kiwGd)

12 I was just perusing the morning paper, and came across a column by Liz Smith, reporter extraordinaire, who said that this wouldn't hurt Gibson's career because all of the right-wing Christian's who loved POTC wouldn't be bothered by Gibson's anti-semtisim.

So, apparently, horrible comments about Jews = bad.

Horrible comments about Christians all being anti-semetic = acceptable.

Posted by: Scout at August 01, 2006 02:29 AM (TYNA0)

13 The irony here is that he was all worried about how his career would be affected by a drunk driving arrest ("I'm so f'n dead", "this is gonna kill me" etc) - and then midway through said arrest started spewing anti-semitic remarks.

All he had to do was limit the dumb comments to "sugar tits" and such, and there would have been no harm to his career... I mean it's not like he drives for a living, or that he would have been the first celebrity to behave like a cad during a DUI - in fact if he just could have restrained the jew remarks it probably would have been a net gain what with the extra exposure it would have gotten him on Vanity Fair.

If he has a sickness I don't think alchoholism is the "biggie"; I'm guessing maybe terets (sp?)

Posted by: Scott at August 01, 2006 02:29 AM (f8958)

14 Everyone here does understand Jesus "laid down His life", right?

Posted by: Chris at August 01, 2006 02:32 AM (sI5dK)

15 I certainly can't speak to Gibson's true feelings, but he did cowboy up and gave a real apology. It's funny how Hollywood will forgive all types of bad behavior from drug use to unprofessionalism to wife beating, as long as it comes from the right star. Gibson basically told Hollywood to go screw when he made his movie, so they hate his guts. Now what he did was indefensible, but we've seen equally bad behavior out of some movie stars before. It's only now that the movie business is going to tear someone apart.

Posted by: UGAdawg at August 01, 2006 02:36 AM (9DumO)

16 Anyone else flashing on Elvis Costello and the "Ray Charles" incident?

Posted by: Knemon at August 01, 2006 02:38 AM (myKow)

17 Good comments on this post:

His father helped him to be an idiot bigot, but now that he's a man, it's all him.

I still think he was unfairly attacked about "The Passion."

All kinds of associations will come out of the woodwork now to make comments, get in the press, and collect money.

When you're worth like, $1B, get a driver already.

Yeah, the South Park boys have everyone's number; Gibson is a weirdo. I believe you must be an a**hole to be successful in Hollywood, but with so many Jewish power brokers there, he'll catch some heat. They've heard it all before though and worse. You don't play for the big money and have a thin skin.

I don't think this will hurt his career.

Posted by: Jim at August 01, 2006 02:50 AM (g8n7f)

18 His apology was pretty lukewarm, at best, and didn't specifically mention the Jew-hating stuff.

Lukewarm?

"I did a number of things that were very wrong and for which I am ashamed."

"I acted like a person completely out of control when I was arrested and said things that I do not believe to be true and which are despicable...”

“I am deeply ashamed of everything I said.”

"I disgraced myself and my family with my behavior and for that I am truly sorry."

Somehow, I don't think he meant that the female deputy doesn't have sweet tits. Which pretty much leaves the Judenhass, no?

Say what you want about his sincerity, but the apology was pretty straightforward.

Posted by: Pablo at August 01, 2006 02:57 AM (4dm7X)

19 If Jews were more christian like -they would forgive Mel - instead of crucifying him-no?

Posted by: splashtc at August 01, 2006 03:04 AM (zlay8)

20 I used to think he was so sexy back in the Mad Max days.

I gave him the benefit of the doubt when Abe Foxman and the MSM gave him grief over his Jesus movie. Abe Foxman gives everyone grief if they don't toe the ADL party line, and the MSM is antireligious anyway, so I was willing to overlook both of them. Even when they dredged up Mel's father's stupidity, I thought it was no indication of Mel's personal views.

Now it turns out that Mel was lying about his personal views the whole time, and was simply putting on a charade. He's a good actor, I'll give him that. Not a wonderful human being, but a good actor.

Posted by: Sue Dohnim at August 01, 2006 03:05 AM (rE+jU)

21 I've posted this elsewhere but isn't ironic that most mainstream conservative sites correctly defend Israel and condemn anti semetic comments vigorously but that 80% of the Jewish voting public is Democrat.

Posted by: roc ingersol at August 01, 2006 03:15 AM (m2CN7)

22 Interesting that Hollywood is so angry. Isn't he expressing how they really feel?

Posted by: pajama momma at August 01, 2006 03:22 AM (42nqg)

23 "Jew hating" makes me sad.

I know that's not terribly deep. But I'm a moron.

Posted by: Dave in Texas at August 01, 2006 03:36 AM (pzen5)

24 I've posted this elsewhere but isn't ironic that most mainstream conservative sites correctly defend Israel and condemn anti semetic comments vigorously but that 80% of the Jewish voting public is Democrat.

And roc, it drives me insane.

You'd think that when this generation's grandparents fled Russia they would have been drawn to the idea of keeping government out of your life and gun ownership.

Posted by: Gordon at August 01, 2006 03:38 AM (GzHh/)

25 pajama momma: you nailed it. Brilliant. If Gibson had said that Israel instead of Jews are responsible for, say, the troubles in the ME, a lot of lefties would be praising him today.

Posted by: Ed Snate at August 01, 2006 03:43 AM (SMsv7)

26 But ... he did say that Jews were responsible. What a creep.

Posted by: Ed Snate at August 01, 2006 03:45 AM (SMsv7)

27 I take no joy in Mel's demons; I hope he can sort out his drinking problem and his anti-semitism out of the limelight. I simply don't think Gibson wants to believe he's an anti-semite, but its so engrained in his mind because of his father, he just shoves it out of view.

Posted by: Greg at August 01, 2006 03:49 AM (Bvj6p)

28 I don't give a shit about Mel's demons. That anti-Semitic jackass is worth close to $1 billion. Screw him, he'll do just fine.

Posted by: Ed Snate at August 01, 2006 04:03 AM (SMsv7)

29 Well, Gibson's career is certainly cooked. He'll have a hard time getting distribution of his new film and people will either refuse to work with him or not want to be associated with him. He's persona non grata.

Also, this event doesn't remotely prove that the Passion is, indeed, anti-semitic. I'm not even a Christian, but I know that Jesus' antagonists were a specific group of Jews with whom he disagreed theologically. That can only be contrued as 'anti-semitic' by a large, unthinking stretch of the imagination.

Now, it's reported that Gibson's been suicidal for a while. (?) His personal quest for meaning has reaped him nothing. That's sad. Apparently, happiness costs much more than $850 million.

I like him and I'll continue to like him just as I'm not throwing away any of my Wagner recordings or selling my Da Vinci sketch. Art is art and has a life of its own beyond that of its creator.

Posted by: ahem at August 01, 2006 04:12 AM (vLn6E)

30 ahem,

You make a good point. But I've found that even though the life of art is autonomous my feelings about it are not always so. I thought The Passion was a worthy effort although I had the same problems as Ace with respect to the violence and gore. And I don't feel that the film is in the leastways anti-Semitic. But I won't ever be able to watch it again without thinking of Gibson's recent anti-Semitic outburst. The same thing happens when I listen to Wagner, whom I also admire as an artist. For that reason, although I haven't and won't throw away my Wagner CDs, I rarely listen to them any more. Because every time I do listen to them I can't help thinking, in a corner of my mind, about what a virulent anti-Semite Wagner was. Such thoughts usually turns out to be buzz-kills in terms of enjoying his music. The more so now that our civilization is at war with Islamic forces that are hell-bent (literally) on killing Jews.

Posted by: Ed Snate at August 01, 2006 04:25 AM (SMsv7)

31 Heck, Hollywood would have greenlighted a whole movie called Air America with Gibson as the star. - The Devil you say!

The hypocricy of Hollyweird still knows no bounds - I mean, yeah, clearly the guy is a Jew-hater, and that pisses me off, mostly because I liked a lot of his movies, but as long as it's just words it means he's an asshole with an asshole opinion, which is still legal last I looked. The DUI is, of course, a crime, but a tragically common one On the other paw, Hollywood emraces, nay deifies, a child rapist (Roman Polansky) and a murderer (Tookie Williams) - kind of puts Mel's "crime" of Jew-hatred into perspective. Doesn't mean I'll be shelling out for any of his movies any time soon though...

Posted by: holdfast at August 01, 2006 04:32 AM (Gzb30)

32 All he really has to do to pull his career out of the gutter is start marketing his films in the Middle East, just like Michael Moore did.  There are plenty of customers over there who "won't mind" his viewpoint.

Posted by: jhc at August 01, 2006 04:33 AM (nzK2x)

33 If Gibson is an anti-semite, you wouldn't know it from listening to a horse's ass such as Abe Foxman. Foxman thinks that Papa Smurf is an anti-semite...


/"boy who cried wolf", anyone?

Posted by: OregonMuse at August 01, 2006 04:35 AM (jqv3S)

34 Since arrest reports are prepared to aid in the prosecutiton of crimes and anti-semetism is not a crime, I'm not sure why it included 8 pages of Sgt Kike Sugar Tits. They had their BAL and it's not the type of case that was going to be challenged in court. So, what was the point but to destroy the man?

I believe Gibson is a raging alcoholic who fell off the wagon. I do not necessarily think he is anti-semetic. Lots of crap flows from people's mouths when they are angry or drunk and it does not necessarily reflect the true person. You -know-who went all cunt ballistic last week. Does that make him mysoginistic?

Posted by: shawn at August 01, 2006 04:51 AM (gIhLq)

35 OM, you're right, he alway has his outrage meter set to "hypersensitive".

But he's right that the Smurfs are anti-semetic.

Who's the Villain? Gargamel. Notice the last syllable "el", Hebrew for God. Hmmm?

Even more obivous is the evil cat's name, Azrael. Sound like someplace you know? Someplace Semetic?

And what do our antagonists want of the Smurfs? He wants to eat them. Smacks of Blood Libel, no?

No need to thank me, I'm just doing my job.

Posted by: Gordon at August 01, 2006 04:53 AM (GzHh/)

36 Mark Shea has some interesting comments on Gibson.

http://markshea.blogspot.com/2006_07_01_markshea_archive.html#115436209155685314

"If you believe Freud, then Gibson is a liar when he says he does not believe what he said, because only the subrational outbursts of the drunk, the panicked, and enraged can be regarded as Truly Revelatory. We must see through the Mask of the "person" supposedly "made in the image of God" to the subrational beast composed of tangled desires, fears, hatreds, and appetites beneath. This is, of course, a measure we would not want anybody to apply to us, considering the horrible things we've caught ourselves thinking in unguarded moments (you know what I mean, don't try to kid me). In our own lives, we are deeply grateful for the fact that nobody, including God, measures us by the chaotic and selfish impulses scrambling around down there in the id, but instead respects us enough to know that it is what we choose that matters."

Posted by: Guy T. at August 01, 2006 05:00 AM (j02xJ)

37 Yes it's sad about the anti-semetic stuff but Sugar-tits is COMEDY GENIUS and i don't think even ace could top that during in a high stress situation such as a dwi arrest. btw, is it sugar-tits or sugar tits? the msm seems divided on this one.

Posted by: rb at August 01, 2006 05:00 AM (KCK7p)

38 Eh, I dunno. Sometimes people deserve the benefit of the doubt. I'll wait and see because of the quality of The Patriot and The Passion and a host of others.

I know the scale is different, but just because you think Cleevon Little's joke in Blazing Saddles is funny doesn't make you a member of the clan or rascist.

[FYI: "One more move and the n***er gets it!"]

Posted by: John at August 01, 2006 05:06 AM (30uPm)

39 Not to mention gargamel has a big hook-nose and originally wanted to turn the Smurfs into gold.

Posted by: Henry at August 01, 2006 05:10 AM (/hs21)

40 Does anyone know where the Jews have hidden my car keys?

Posted by: Reddish Jode at August 01, 2006 05:13 AM (KeOQp)

41 "start marketing his films in the Middle East"

Well, he already did that with Passion ... hmmm ...

Posted by: Knemon at August 01, 2006 05:32 AM (myKow)

42 Let's see:

Gibson gets drunk, and his lone remaining active brain cell emits a bunch of racist crap his dad hammered into him at a tender age. He apologizes the minute he's sober. Consequence: His career is over.

Ted Kennedy gets drunk, leaves a woman-not-his-wife at the bottom of a river, and spends the next 10 hours trying to cover his tracks. Consequence: He is elected Senator-for-Life.

Conclusion:
Mel Gibson should run for office in Massachusetts.

Posted by: Rittenhouse at August 01, 2006 05:51 AM (go2A+)

43 Mel should donate say five million to a top notch ad agency to put Israel in the running of the media luv blitz for terrorists.

Posted by: jane at August 01, 2006 06:01 AM (fKHJG)

44 http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/wireStory?id=2260807

A second apology. This one's a bit more specific.

Posted by: Knemon at August 01, 2006 06:12 AM (myKow)

45 I think Pat Buchanan is more of an anti-Semite than Mel Gibson. Get a little wine in Pat, and I bet it wouldn't be pretty if the subject of Jooooos came up.

Read his latest?

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2006/08/the_moral_culpability_for_qana.html

Posted by: Mark at August 01, 2006 06:18 AM (QE/AK)

46 Say what you want about his sincerity, but the apology was pretty straightforward.

Then why the second apology?

Posted by: Dave D at August 01, 2006 06:18 AM (kiwGd)

47 What does a second apology have to do with the first being straightforward? While the second may be more specific, the first wasn't a hedge job.

What part of "I disgraced myself..." and "I'm deeply ashamed..." do you find to be squishy?

Posted by: Pablo at August 01, 2006 06:35 AM (4dm7X)

48 "Foxman called on Hollywood executives to 'realize the bigot in their midst' and 'distance themselves from this anti-Semite.'"

If they all followed this advice generally, how much of Hollywood would be left?

Posted by: Scotian at August 01, 2006 06:45 AM (FP5y4)

49 "I think Pat Buchanan is more of an anti-Semite than Mel Gibson."

Well, sure, but that's setting the bar kind of high ...

*

"What part of "I disgraced myself..." and "I'm deeply ashamed..." do you find to be squishy?"

The part where he refers to saying "things" that he didn't agree with.

Obviously Gibson, either on his own or at the prompting of others, felt the first apology - while honorable in its specificity about insulting the cops - was lacking something.

So he made this second statement.

Posted by: Knemon at August 01, 2006 06:57 AM (myKow)

50 Excerpted from an article by Jack Dunphy in National Review Online:

"Things have reached a pretty pass when reports of a celebrity’s drunken misbehavior and anti-Semitic rants are treated as bigger news than an actual war in Israel. But there you have it, life in America in 2006, and for the moment Mel Gibson’s encounter with a deputy from the Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Department is The Story. Tel Aviv could be in flames and I’m not sure it would push Gibson’s sordid little tale off the front pages."

Full article at: http://article.nationalreview.com/

Posted by: Ed Snate at August 01, 2006 07:01 AM (SMsv7)

51 No offense Ace, but you're sounding like your favorite person again, Randy Andy Sullivan. Abe Foxman. give me a break. He wants a Soviet Style show trial for Gibson. Why doesn't that surpise me. Bottom line, if Hollywood can do business with a convicted child rapist Roman Polanski, it surely can tolerate Mel Gibson. After all, what's worse, a drunk Mel Gibson saying some stupid things about Jews or giving a standing ovation to man at the Academy Awards who when he was 44yrs old was sleeping with a 13yr old girl.

Give it up Ace.

Posted by: JimBob at August 01, 2006 07:01 AM (XxBtk)

52 Give what up? He hates Jews. That's a fact. I don't need Abe Foxman to tell me that. Gibson told me that with his own mouth.

This does get into really deep and difficult questions about, inter alia, whether thought crimes should be punished at all through social ostracism, whether an apology can actually wipe away lifetime held odious beliefs, whether we're all not more or less bigoted, and some of us (like me) are using Gibson as a scapegoat to carry away our own sins, etc.

I'd write that essay, but frankly, it seems like such a chore.

The American Spectator takes a stab at it, from a pro-Gibson POV.

I really don't know if I'm comfortable taking away a man's entire career, and condemning him as a Nazi, based upon a thought crime, or a drunken outburst. I don't know precisely what the penalty should be for deep-rooted bigotry. I really don't. And I don't know if it can all be "fixed" by some "counselling" with Rabbis and the inevitable Diane Sawyer interview.

There are a lot of tricky questions here. Some may disagree.

One question I don't think is especially tricky, though, is whether Gibson hates Jews, and blames them for "starting all the wars."

Posted by: ace at August 01, 2006 07:13 AM (h7Mal)

53 "I know the scale is different, but just because you think Cleevon Little's joke in Blazing Saddles is funny doesn't make you a member of the clan or rascist. "

They're completely different. One was said as a joke, the other was said in purple rage.

Unless you think Gibson was telling knock-knock jokes.

Knock, knock.

Who's there?

A fucking Jew.

A fucking Jew who?

A fucking Jew who starts all the wars, that's who.

Posted by: ace at August 01, 2006 07:16 AM (h7Mal)

54 "The part where he refers to saying "things" that he didn't agree with."

Do you mean when he said "I acted like a person completely out of control when I was arrested and said things that I do not believe to be true and which are despicable..." Is that the statement you find squishy?

I can't find the part where he refers to sayings things he "doesn't agree with".

Posted by: Pablo at August 01, 2006 07:24 AM (4dm7X)

55 I should also note that I've defended Gibson without reservation throughout The Passion controversy. And, as a recent post notes, it's kind of hard to make a film about Jesus' death without implicating the Jewish priests/Jewish rabble in it at all. You can't just edit that part out in the interests of interfaith amity.

However, this recent outburst does throw additional light upon some of the aesthetic choices he made. As Krauthammer noted, Satan is depicted multiple times gliding in an out amidst Jewish faces.

I didn't think much of that at the time, given that Jesus did, in fact, live almost entirely amidst Jews (and was a Jew himself, as were all of his disciples). Who else would Satan glide in and out between? The Serbs? The Soviets? Imperial Stormtroopers?

True, there could have been a bit more emphasis placed on the Romans... but then, there actually was a lot of emphasis placed on that. The Roman legionaires seemed to relish torturing Jesus. And yet no one found that particuarly anti-Italian.

Anyway, while Gibson's aesthetic choices seemed, to me, to be perfectly defensible before, his Jew-hatin' ways do seem to open them up for futher scrutiny.

And PS, while I defended all of Gibson's choices, I have to say I didn't much like the movie. It didn't even feel like a movie. Then again, I'm a heathen.

Posted by: ace at August 01, 2006 07:24 AM (h7Mal)

56 JimBob -

I don't want some show trial, but I don't plan on seeing anymore Gibson movies. Am I permitted that reaction to his bigotry?

I also don't give two shits for his apology, although I will concede that he manned up more than is typical in these type of celebrity gone wild incidents.

Posted by: steve_in_hb at August 01, 2006 07:27 AM (Wrfzz)

57 I suppose no one here has ever said something they regretted and hurt someone when either drunk or in a rage. My point is that we all have done or said something we were sorry for and forgiveness seems scarce in today's world. The guy's a drunk with a demon on his back. Fallible like all of us, capable of directing a great movie and spouting off like a jackass the next.

The point is that we all have been guilty of this in one form or another and wrong is wrong. We attribute levels of how bad it was but at the end of the day whether you've said something and hurt one person or a a whole ethinicity, it's nitpicking to say there's a difference.

And Jesus did allow himself to be crucified - no one made him do anything. However, it was the Pharisees who wanted him killed because of the threat he posed and his blasphemy but it was the Romans that carried it out.

Posted by: Pixelflash at August 01, 2006 07:27 AM (O+1/6)

58 Well lets phase the question in a different way shall we Ace. Does Hollywood hate Christianity. I don't think you'll even dispute the fact that Hollywood puts out lots of filth about Christianity. And as American Spectator editor Ben Stein writes, "Is Hollywood controlled by Jews? You bet it is and what of it" As Bill Donahue said yesterday

"But Mel’s enemies will never cut him a break. Their real goal is to discredit ‘The Passion of the Christ,’ and that is why their propaganda machine is in full gear. Never mind that Mel has said that ‘Anti-Semitism is not only contrary to my personal beliefs, it is also contrary to the core message of my movie.’

"How ironic it is to note that the core message of his film —forgiveness — is sorely lacking in his critics.

"In 2003, Roman Polanski, the convicted child rapist, received a standing ovation when he won an Oscar for ‘The Pianist.’ Nice to know what really offends Hollywood.”

Yes, it nice to know what really offends Hollywood

Posted by: JimBob at August 01, 2006 07:28 AM (XxBtk)

59 I agree with Steve on the apology. It was, I agree, more contrite and accepting of responsibility than most.

However, he also offers the booze excuse -- the booze, apparently, caused him to say things he'd never before thought, and never agreed with -- and has already hit Step One of the Celebrity Rehabilition Playbook, Check Thyself Into Rehab.

Further, an apology really only holds water if one believes someone's truly contrite about what they did.

The trouble with Gibson is that -- just my assumption here; your mileage may vary -- I believe he's thought these things his whole life. When he apologizes, I really don't expect him to change his entire worldview.

Even if he attempted to do so-- I'm not sure it's possible.

there are cases of truly reformed bigots, but that takes a lot of work and a lot of counseling and a lot of rethinking of lifelong held prejudices. I don't know if "I'm sorry, what I said was dispicable" is really enough work to overcome such hatreds.

Posted by: ace at August 01, 2006 07:32 AM (h7Mal)

60 "Is that the statement you find squishy?"

Squishy, maybe not the word. Vague, yes. In the first statement, he went into detail about the offense to cops (good), the anti-semitic stuff is just "things."

Again, why would he have made this second statement if the first one had been sufficient?

Posted by: Knemon at August 01, 2006 07:32 AM (myKow)

61 PixelFlash -

If he had been in a drunken arguement with a Jew and let lose with anti-semitic epithets I could more clearly see your point. Instead he was drunk and introduced his feelings about Jews in to a situation that had nothing to do with Jews. That's pretty telling.

I have said and done things when drunk that I regretted. But everytime it was a case of me doing what I really wanted to do, saying what I really think, or revealing perosnal secrets about a close friend/lover. Not creating somethign objectionable out of thin air.

Posted by: steve_in_hb at August 01, 2006 07:34 AM (Wrfzz)

62 Also remember, Gibson couldn't even find a distributor for The Passion of the Christ. So in a way, Hollwood had already tried to bring him down.

Posted by: JimBob at August 01, 2006 07:38 AM (XxBtk)

63 Damn, this is a good discussion. I keep going back and forth depending on what the posts say. I do know I've said a lot of vile things in the heat of anger that I later, sometimes immediately, regretted. I did this just last night at a family gathering, which always seems to bring out the worst in me (brothers, argh!). Does the worst of define who I am? What about the good things I've said (and meant, and felt).

In Cook County (Chicago and near suburbs) the judicial system and much of city government is controlled / dominated by the Irish. A Jewish friend who's a lawyer once complained to me about this. I pointed out that her tribe had Hollywood, and we both laughed.

Now I don't know what to think, the sign of a good discussion. I guess the least that could be said: If Hollywood is dominated by Jews--and it is (but so what?)--then for Mel Gibson to make anti-Semitic remarks is a very, very poor career move.

Posted by: Ed Snate at August 01, 2006 07:46 AM (SMsv7)

64 Again, why would he have made this second statement if the first one had been sufficient?

It's more specific, which again doesn't make the first one "lukewarm".

Are you saying that he can't apologize for comments without repeating them? Is the second apology sufficient?

Posted by: Pablo at August 01, 2006 07:49 AM (4dm7X)

65 I do know I've said a lot of vile things in the heat of anger that I later, sometimes immediately, regretted.

Ed Snate -

That was my point when I said I could understand and dismiss the significance if his comments occurred during a arguement with a Jew. In anger saying anything to hurt the person you are fighting with happens. Instead, he was going through an unpleasant situation and immediately started lashing out at Jews for no reason.

Posted by: steve_in_hb at August 01, 2006 07:55 AM (Wrfzz)

66 I have said and done things when drunk that I regretted. But everytime it was a case of me doing what I really wanted to do, saying what I really think, or revealing perosnal secrets about a close friend/lover. Not creating somethign objectionable out of thin air.

Son, you're leaving a rich source of humor lying right on the table in front of you. I would encourage you to give this namby-pamby, no-making-up-shit-and barking-it-while-lit-up policy a second look.

Posted by: spongeworthy at August 01, 2006 08:01 AM (uSomN)

67 The first apology was "lukewarm" because it didn't specifically address the nature of the offense committed. A general apology is pretty meaningless if it doesn't acknowledge the wrongdoing in question. Otherwise, it's easy to just throw around apologies everywhere while acting like a complete asshole. While I understand that contrition is in the eye of the beholder, I also see that there are plenty of us out there who have deep-seated warm-fuzzies about Mel Gibson. That's fine, but I reserve the right to characterize a general, self-serving apology from him as "lukewarm." And now I've explained it. It's pretty obvious from the fact that he made a second apology that either Gibson himself or his agent understood that his first was pretty "lukewarm."

Posted by: Dave D at August 01, 2006 08:08 AM (kiwGd)

68 sponge -

I have more than enough grist for the mill without resorting to fiction. I can barely edit myself when sober, as soon as I'm drunk unvarnished, vulgar truth and cutting insults come out.

Tell mixed company of 20 people about my "minute man" performance in a Hawaiin strip club/brothel? Sure why not.

Posted by: steve_in_hb at August 01, 2006 08:10 AM (Wrfzz)

69 Tell mixed company of 20 people about my "minute man" performance in a Hawaiin strip club/brothel? Sure why not.

I'm waiting....

Posted by: Feisty at August 01, 2006 08:14 AM (G//s0)

70 Feisty -

I won't make you wait long, about a minute - HAHAHAHA.

Wasn't the dog cage story enough?

Posted by: steve_in_hb at August 01, 2006 08:18 AM (Wrfzz)

71 My last comment on this, lest I be seen as a Gibson-defender; people can say things while drunk that they don't believe. One of my best friends is a recovering alchoholic. When sober, he is thoughtful, smart, and riotously funny. When drunk, he was an out of control jerk-off. I once knocked him unconscious just so he would go to sleep. He would sometimes say cruel things that he regretted deeply when he sobered up. So it happens, is all I'm saying.

Posted by: UGAdawg at August 01, 2006 08:30 AM (9DumO)

72 I remember feeling that an argument was not over until I heard things the way I wanted. Sometimes the way I wanted to hear things still wasn't good enough because I wasn't in the right mood to listen or forgive. Many people want to hear a specific word or phrase in an apology and refuse to accept what is sincerely offered as "not good enough". It wouldn't matter to those people for what Gibson apologizes. He was a drunken mean fool, full of shit. Obviously his hate was sparked by the frustrating terror of our current events. So in his drunken stupor he made ugliness, but did not hold to his stupidity when he sobered. He disclaimed his despicable, undeserving words that should never have been spoken. He was ashamed of himself and sorry for having been so hurtful. Apology accepted. Regardless of your own particular brand of fault, no one reading this is blameless. So quit playing the better than thou game 'cause you aren't better, only different.

Posted by: Lynn at August 01, 2006 08:33 AM (RqXgS)

73 "Regardless of your own particular brand of fault, no one reading this is blameless. So quit playing the better than thou game 'cause you aren't better, only different."

Shorter Lynn:

"everybody does it; it's time to move on; he's amazing at 'compartmentalizing' his Jew-hatred from his actual job-related duties"

Posted by: ace at August 01, 2006 09:04 AM (h7Mal)

74 I think most of the people who were dissatisfied with the first apology at least see the second one as much *better,* right?

Posted by: Knemon at August 01, 2006 09:09 AM (myKow)

75 Even shorter Ace: "Cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt. Cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt. Cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt."

Posted by: shawn at August 01, 2006 09:16 AM (BePg9)

76 Is that to the tune of "Spam spam spam spam ..."

?

Posted by: Knemon at August 01, 2006 09:21 AM (myKow)

77 What shawn said.

Posted by: Ed Snate at August 01, 2006 09:33 AM (SMsv7)

78 I mean, Ace goes batshit nuts, repeatedly calls a guy a cunt and generally comes across like ... a drunken asshole.

Like Mel Gibson, actually.

Except Mel Gibson apologized. Twice.

You may not think that calling someone a cunt is the same as uttering anti-Semitic remarks. But that's not the point.

Posted by: Ed Snate at August 01, 2006 09:42 AM (SMsv7)

79 "Paul, are you a cunt?

Fucking cunts start all the wars in the world!

My blog is fucked ..."

Posted by: Knemon at August 01, 2006 09:52 AM (myKow)

80 And for the record, I have said more than my fair share of highly regrettable things, too. Oy!

Posted by: shawn at August 01, 2006 10:07 AM (BePg9)

81 "This cop most likely wasnt a jew."

I don't know what Podhoretz' source is here (he gives no link), but the cop may have, in fact, been Jewish.

Whether this makes Gibson's outburst better or worse is debatable.

*

I AM GUILTY OF JEWISH STEREOTYPING [John Podhoretz]

I made a joke earlier about how a Jew is as likely to be a Shiite sheikh as a Malibu cop. Oops. Turns out Mel Gibson's arresting officer is Jewish. Which actually makes Mel's remarks even worse.

Posted by: Knemon at August 01, 2006 10:10 AM (myKow)

82 Let me clarify: it certainly doesn't excuse it, but it *explains* why the subject of The Tribe came up.

But in a way it makes it worse, because it is no longer just random mouth-flatus; it fits in with Gibson's larger purpose, which was to threaten the cop personally ("I own Malibu, I'll destroy you ... are you a Jew? I knew it! Fucking jews" etc)

Posted by: Knemon at August 01, 2006 10:15 AM (myKow)

83 "Ace was just calling a spade a spade. . . etc."

As I said, that wasn' my point. My point is, repeatedly calling someone a cunt as way of arguing with someone makes the speaker sound like a stupid, knuckledragging, low-class moron. I'm pretty sure Ace is not that kind of person. Which means his ugly rhetoric is not and should be taken as indicative of who he is.

Same goes for Mel Gibson.

Posted by: Ed Snate at August 01, 2006 10:19 AM (SMsv7)

84 I just heard a cop call up Medved and say the one of the usual reactions to arresting a drunk for a dui is rage against the arresting officer. Therefore, anything they can find to say to you in an attempt to get under your skin, they will use. It may have been the or one of the reasons why Gibson let out this filth because he knew the cop was jewish. Again, I have seen a lot of alcoholics arrested and making much worse statements than Gibson. It did not reflect the person they were when they were sober.

Posted by: shawn at August 01, 2006 10:20 AM (BePg9)

85 As I said, that wasn' my point. My point is, repeatedly calling someone a cunt as way of arguing with someone makes the speaker sound like a stupid, knuckledragging, low-class moron.

My point is that it makes one sound misogynistic.

Posted by: shawn at August 01, 2006 10:23 AM (BePg9)

86 I wasn't drunk when I wrote that, so I can't just go to Rehab for Absolution.

I'm not especially proud of that, but really, there's a difference between name-calling and deep-seeded bigotry.

And the analogy is kinda flawed, because despite the crudeness of the language, I really believe(d) that. As I imagine Gibson does, as well.

It's in the category of things I shouldn't have said, and yet believe.

Had Gibson managed to do what I should have done -- not said it -- we still would have both believed in the things we wanted to say but did not.

Posted by: ace at August 01, 2006 10:25 AM (h7Mal)

87 In other words: Not really sure how that gets Gibson off the hook.

Posted by: ace at August 01, 2006 10:26 AM (h7Mal)

88 Ace,

Can't agree with you. Suggest you read that article in today's online American Spectator about Gibson that I linked to in the later thread about artists being assholes.

There's nothing more I can say. You believe that Gibson's comments showed him as the man he truly is. I can't be so sure about that. Perhaps it's the certainty of your belief that makes you able to sling around words like "cunt" when you normally wouldn't do so.

Posted by: Ed Snate at August 01, 2006 10:38 AM (SMsv7)

89 Also, I know you (Ace) can be a pretty fearsome person when you're pissed off. You can and do use words to hurt. Do you always believe fully in the things you say when you employ fearsome powers? Or do you sometimes look back on what your wrote and think, damn, that was a mistake.

Posted by: Ed Snate at August 01, 2006 10:43 AM (SMsv7)

90 It's in the category of things I shouldn't have said, and yet believe.

You believe women are "cunts" and it is an acceptable slur to use against anyone - man or woman, if you dislike them?? Nice to know!

Posted by: shawn at August 01, 2006 10:45 AM (BePg9)

91 Gibson is given a free pass because he said anti-Semitic comments to one Jewish person while he was being hauled off to jail by that person.

That makes him an asshole and it might affect his career. It doesn't really affect Jews. The reason racist/bigotted comments are considered bad is because they are meant to bring the person who is receiving them down. I'm rather certain the cop isn't so much of a pussy as to be brought to his knees over drunk movie star commentary.

Posted by: Feisty at August 01, 2006 11:01 AM (G//s0)

92 Ace, Ace, Randi Andy Sullian

http://time.blogs.com/daily_dish/2006/08/the_passion_of_.html

Posted by: JimBob at August 01, 2006 11:56 AM (XxBtk)

93
Again, why would he have made this second statement if the first one had been sufficient?




Because there is a strict quota system on these things. Trent Lott hasn't finished his ongoing run. Only his irrelevence let's him off the hook every now and then. Chris Dodd gave a half-assed, rather joking apology, and he's all set.

Which brings up a question: Who gets to decide when enough is enough?



Taken on its own, is The Passion... an anti-semitic movie, and does this episode cause you to change your mind?

Posted by: Tom M at August 01, 2006 01:37 PM (ARXgj)

94 I hope we can agree on one thing:
Take the man's keys away. They didn't with that Kennedy boy, and bad things will happen - mark my words.

Posted by: Tom M at August 01, 2006 01:38 PM (ARXgj)

95 How on earth is the Passion remotely anti semetic?

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at August 01, 2006 04:54 PM (FuM7z)

96 In vino veritas: the point that everyone keeps skirting is that it is precisely because he was drunk that his comments are important. Thoughts like these don't spring to mind and come out of your mouth from nowhere. Anti-semitism wasn't in the alcohol he drank. It's an odd coincidence that James Mee, the deputy who pulled him over, happens to be Jewish. But how did the handwritten copy of the arrest report make its way into the hands of Harvey Levin, the reporter who broker the story on his web site? And why? If I were the cop who pulled this guy over, and I had been subjected to Gibson's abusive behavior, only to find that the Powers That Be were reporting that Gibson was arrested without innocent, I damn well would have made sure that the unexpurgated report found its way into the hands of a reporter, but I am willing to bet that Mee had no idea of the uproar that leak would create. Of course, this is just speculation on my part, but it stands to reason that Mee was one of three or four people who had access to the original report, and the only one who had a reason to leak it to the press.

In the rush to "crucify" Gibson, no one seems to be asking the question about how the original arrest report was leaked. Arrest reports are public documents, so leaking one isn't a crime. Harvey Levin would know that, since he is a member of the Bar in California.

My conclusion is that there are a lot of people in Hollywood, Jews and non-Jews, who don't like Gibson personally, and don't like what he stands for, and now Gibson has given them all the ammunition they need to poke holes in his halo.

Posted by: alan milner at August 02, 2006 12:07 PM (Js6aF)

97 Mel Gibson is a wonderful actor and director and family man. He has a disease called alcoholism ( Mel Gibson & his wife & children are the ones that deal with his disease daily not the public) I really don't get the high and mighty Hollywood crowd and their Judgements against Mr Gibson. A comment made while intoxicated hardly defines who that person is or what they really believe or don't believe. Screw ABC if they drop Mr. Gibsons and screw Hollywood if they ban him. Have these so called Hollywood Stars that are speaking out against him are -Drug addicts,Drunks, whore mongers, whores, liers, thiefs, alcoholics , self absorbed, self rightous, husband -wife exchanging, pediphiles,
bigots, that there only claim to contribution to the world is that they made a movie and now have some money -so they think they can sit in judgement of everyone else. GET OVER YOURSELFS - The man got drunk and made a comment. The world has enough really serious problems
lets waste energy on a comment.
Mr Gibson good luck on you treatment-One Day at a Time!

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