February 28, 2015

Fundamental Concepts - Molon Labe [Weirddave]
— Open Blogger

In 480BC, Xerxes of Persia demanded that the Greeks under King Leonidas of Sparta surrender their weapons. King Leonidas responded with a laconic "Molon labe", which translates as "Come and take them" and a legend was born. Even though the Greeks lost the Battle of Thermopylae that followed, King Leonidas' stirring phrase has echoed with defiance down through history. The phrase has a rich history in America, too. From Fort Morris, Georgia, to Gonzales, Texas to Second Amendment defenders today, "Come and Take It" resonates in American hearts.


Gonzales1.jpg.jpg

With the disturbing news this week about BATF's attempt to ban M855 NATO Ball ammunition, the internet has been alive with people swearing fealty to the idea of molon labe. I approve. However, talk is cheap they say, and internet talk is cheaper than most. Anyone who considers themselves a patriot needs to take a good long moment of quiet reflection and ask themselves, honestly, what does molon labe mean? More specifically, they need to ask themselves what are the ramifications of defiantly proclaiming "Come and take them" if the authorities say "OK".

The ramifications are simple: YOU ARE GOING TO DIE.

This isn't universally true, of course, but in order for molon labe to mean anything, in order for it to be effective, you have to accept that it IS true. If we ever get to the point where the authorities are attempting to forcibly disarm the population at large, the only way to prevent it from happening is to meet force with force. If it comes to this, you will lose. Every time. Even if you are armed, ready, and respond instantly to aggression by the authorities, there are a whole lot more of them than there are of you. You might kill one, or even several, but they will keep coming and they will bring resources to bear that you can not hope to match. Officers. SWAT teams. Snipers. Air cover. Drones. They WILL take you down, and that's not all. No, you have to accept something else too:

YOUR FAMILY IS GOING TO DIE TOO.

Think I'm talking crazy talk? Ask Vicki Weaver. Ask Sammy Weaver. I'll wait.

Do I have your attention yet? Good. This is deadly serious. In a worst case scenario like I'm outlining, with a government in armed insurrection against its citizens, lots and lots of people are going to die. It isn't a joke, it isn't faux tough guy posturing, it's a life and death situation.

So what's the point? Is it hopeless? We either roll over like sheep or die in a futile display of defiance?

No.

Should these events come to pass, it will not be the first time in history than men have faced such a choice, nor will it be the last. 239 years ago a different group of men faced a similar choice, and they came up with something quite remarkable. You may not be familiar with it, it isn't taught much in schools anymore, but if you can get your hands on a copy of the document they produced, it's a good read.


And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.


They pledged their lives, and nine of them had to make good on that pledge. The first of them to die, John Morton of Pennsylvania, said on his deathbed about the Declaration "they will live to see the hour when they shall acknowledge it to have been the most glorious service that I ever rendered my country." Many lost their fortunes. Here in Baltimore, you might find yourself driving down Paca Street. Not one person in a hundred could tell you that it is named after William Paca, signer of the Declaration who spent his entire fortune outfitting and supporting troops for the Continental Army. None of them lost their sacred honor. Not one of the fifty-six men turned their coats (from our POV. I'm sure the British would classify all fifty-six as turncoats).

I used this as an example to illustrate that while fifty-six men pledged their lives, only nine had to relinquish theirs. The same would be true in a molon labe scenario. Most disarmament raids would succeed. The result of these raids would probably range from simple confiscation of weapons to perhaps arrest. No fatalities. Others would result in only the deaths of civilians, If firing breaks out, a Ruby Ridge scenario(standoff, deaths on both sides) might be the best result that could be hoped for. Sometimes, however, it would be the authorities who died, and for all of the advantages that they have in any individual situation, they have a huge weakness too.

There are a lot more of us than there are of them.

At its peak, the SS only numbered one million men. That's a formidable force, and it rounded up some twenty million people and sent them to the camps. If only one in ten had been able to successfully resist ("success" being defined as taking at least one SS man with them), half of the people who wound up in concentration camps would have been spared.

This post is a lot more sober than most of my usual Fundamental Concept threads. It's meant to be. It's easy to brag "They can have my gun when they take it from my cold, dead hands", or to joke about canoe accidents or to slap a molon labe sticker on the back of the minivan. The reality is that those things only mean something, really mean something, in the context of a hot Civil War. A hot Civil War means that the country we love is (temporarily? One would hope) dead, and everything we believe in has been destroyed. It seems to me that it would be in all of our best interests to do everything humanly possible to prevent that from coming about. If our Representatives aren't representing, elect new ones. Donate money. Donate TIME. Talk to friends, talk to relatives, talk to strangers. Old Glory may be faded and tattered, but she's got a lot of life left in her. It's up to us to nurture that life. Many of us seem to have given up and sunk into apathy, or resigned ourselves to hunkering down and awaiting the burning times. Hopefully I've inspired you to take a long hard look at just what that would entail, and hopefully a long gaze into that abyss will motivate you to redouble your efforts to avoid it at all costs. If not, however, then only one question is left, and only you can answer it:


Posted by: Open Blogger at 05:32 AM | Comments (234)
Post contains 1127 words, total size 7 kb.

1 mmmm red meat! Thanks WierdDave! (now to read it)

Posted by: JDub at February 28, 2015 05:38 AM (X3xYu)

2 Good post Dave

Posted by: Village Idiot's Apprentice at February 28, 2015 05:38 AM (WpgvJ)

3 Deep thoughts, Weirddave.

I'm not sure what I would do if push came to shove. I like to think I would fight back, but my major concern is whether or not I would recognize a governmental assault before it was too late. Normalcy bias is a powerful thing, and if they came on slowly enough, I might not realize what was happening.

Posted by: right wing whippersnapper at February 28, 2015 05:39 AM (ThxKk)

4 Thank you.

Posted by: NJRob at February 28, 2015 05:39 AM (f+G+N)

5 Molon labe, bitch. Works better.

Posted by: eman at February 28, 2015 05:40 AM (MQEz6)

6 This is why I finally gave up on Limbaugh. Fixing the problems we face with an out of control government is going to take more than words. Unfortunately, my age and poor health mean that words are all I have left.

Posted by: Economics Loo at February 28, 2015 05:40 AM (mi0R9)

7 3 Deep thoughts, Weirddave. I'm not sure what I would do if push came to shove. I like to think I would fight back, but my major concern is whether or not I would recognize a governmental assault before it was too late. Normalcy bias is a powerful thing, and if they came on slowly enough, I might not realize what was happening. Posted by: right wing whippersnapper at February 28, 2015 10:39 AM (ThxKk) You mean like the federal income tax and automatic withholding and Social Security and Medicare?

Posted by: eman at February 28, 2015 05:41 AM (MQEz6)

8 Unfortunately, my age and poor health mean that words are all I have left. There is a power in having nothing to lose

Posted by: Tmitsss at February 28, 2015 05:42 AM (Tt6V6)

9 We're far more likely to be forced to resistance than to revolution, with all the horror that implies. Revolution can be a straight up fight, resistance is simply murder.

Posted by: at February 28, 2015 05:42 AM (u3dUK)

10 They are already scared

Posted by: Tmitsss at February 28, 2015 05:43 AM (Tt6V6)

11 You mean like the federal income tax and automatic withholding and Social Security and Medicare?

Posted by: eman at February 28, 2015 10:41 AM (MQEz6)


Something like that. Modern Americans endure daily assaults on our personal freedoms that would have the Founding Fathers shooting a long time ago.

Posted by: right wing whippersnapper at February 28, 2015 05:45 AM (ThxKk)

12 Molon labia!

Posted by: Hillary! at February 28, 2015 05:45 AM (AVWYi)

13 When your Congressman returns home and says "Fuck it, it's hopeless" then it's on.

Posted by: eman at February 28, 2015 05:45 AM (MQEz6)

14 Warsaw Ghetto uprising. Unarmed civilians held off the best units of the German army for thirty days.

Posted by: Economics Loo at February 28, 2015 05:47 AM (mi0R9)

15 When your Congressman returns home and says "Fuck it, it's hopeless" then it's on.

Posted by: eman at February 28, 2015 10:45 AM (MQEz6)

All seven of my congresscritters are Dems. They'll never say 'it's hopeless'.

Posted by: right wing whippersnapper at February 28, 2015 05:47 AM (ThxKk)

16 So, storm the ballot box?

Posted by: the 52% at February 28, 2015 05:48 AM (+kznc)

17 They can have my gun when they pry it from my warm, living hand with a polite request!

Posted by: FireHorse at February 28, 2015 05:48 AM (8dNrT)

18 In a weird way, I like it when they go after guns.  It seems to wake conservatives up more than any other issue Ive seen.

Posted by: Kal at February 28, 2015 05:49 AM (+pyjd)

19 Ammo? what Ammo?

Posted by: Nevergiveup at February 28, 2015 05:50 AM (rDqRv)

20 LIV are more dangerous than any Gov Order or Rule

Posted by: Nevergiveup at February 28, 2015 05:51 AM (rDqRv)

21 I pray for the strength. Mind, Character, Spirit.

Posted by: nip at February 28, 2015 05:51 AM (jI23+)

22 I am reporting you bitter clingers for terrorism.

Posted by: Jeh Johnson at February 28, 2015 05:52 AM (Y92Nd)

23 "Warsaw Ghetto uprising. Unarmed civilians held off the best units of the German army for thirty days. " But to be fair, those Jews knew that at the end of the fight, there was freedom or death. For most of us, it's more the creeping surrender of incremental freedoms. Give me liberty, or give me death in many cases has been replaced by "You want me to trade liberty, and the risks that come with it, for the security of my government providing for all my needs?" At the end of the day, if we don't resist, other then individual freedoms, what has been lost...compared to the Warsaw Jews. I hope I'm getting the idea across well enough.

Posted by: Village Idiot's Apprentice at February 28, 2015 05:52 AM (WpgvJ)

24 First thing I thought of while reading this was the overwhelming government force unleashed on Cliven Bundy. In what universe was that an appropriate response to overdue grazing fees?

Everything we've seen from this admin, from Dept of Ed having SWAT teams to NOAA purchasing millions of rounds of ammo, is that *they* are preparing themselves. Which just seems so unreal.

Posted by: Lizzy[/i] at February 28, 2015 05:52 AM (lHHyw)

25 I am reporting you bitter clingers for terrorism. Posted by: Jeh Johnson at February 28, 2015 10:52 AM (Y92Nd) Yeah Ok, but remember I called top bunk

Posted by: Nevergiveup at February 28, 2015 05:53 AM (rDqRv)

26 I agree with the whole post. More and more every day I wish Joe McCarthy had succeeded. The enemy is so far within, people don't see it anymore.

Posted by: Lincolntf at February 28, 2015 05:53 AM (2cS/G)

27 Molon labia! Posted by: Hillary! at February 28, 2015 10:45 AM (AVWYi) -------------------- Hear, hear! From my cold, dead pants!

Posted by: transgendered quokka at February 28, 2015 05:53 AM (3F6F8)

28 "It seems to me that it would be in all of our best interests to do everything humanly possible to prevent that from coming about. " Those on the left would say all you have to do to stop the collapse of this nation is to surrender to their ideals of our country, and all our guns. Is that part of the "do everything humanly possible" options we should consider?

Posted by: Daisy Cutter at February 28, 2015 05:54 AM (myGBe)

29

The ramifications are simple: YOU ARE GOING TO DIE.

YOUR FAMILY IS GOING TO DIE TOO.



Which is why South American countries end up with death squads on both sides, with both sides killing opponents and their families. In the brutal calculus of struggle, it makes sense: they figure that there's no point fighting by Marquis of Queensbury rules if your opponent does not.

Posted by: Jay Guevara[/i][/b][/s][/u] at February 28, 2015 05:55 AM (oKE6c)

30 28-No

Posted by: Nancy R at February 28, 2015 05:55 AM (jI23+)

31 Well said, Weirddave.

Posted by: Piercello, on the road at February 28, 2015 05:56 AM (vVaDF)

32 FWIW, I love the movie 300. I know it probably has zero basis in reality, but the bad-assedness gets me every time. Even my wife, who isn't into gore, likes that flick.

Posted by: Brave Sir Robin at February 28, 2015 05:56 AM (5buP8)

33 So, storm the ballot box? Posted by: the 52% at February 28, 2015 10:48 AM (+kznc) Doesn't work when you end up electing liars and cowards. Good Post Dave. I don't know what to do, it sure does feel like none of the normal courses of action are working. Maybe we should start with some good old fashioned protests, who knows, maybe get behind a strong conservative with our time and money? Something has to be done, because I think you're right a lot of us feel defeated and have resigned ourselves to no longer having a voice

Posted by: spypeach at February 28, 2015 05:57 AM (/vbEv)

34 Vic can testify to the historical fact that what Leonidas actually said was: "Come and take them, but first you will blow me."

Posted by: Sharkman at February 28, 2015 05:57 AM (72D6h)

35 I may be the phrase's staunchest supporter, but I always understood "Molon Labe" to mean "Yessir, is there anything you would like?" You guys make it sound like something only meanies would say.

Posted by: John Boehner at February 28, 2015 05:58 AM (FcR7P)

36

Yeah Ok, but remember I called top bunk

 

Posted by: Nevergiveup at February 28, 2015 10:53 AM (rDqRv)

 

So we'll bury you 5 1/2 feet under.

 

Or so we'll tell your next of kin before we kill them.

Posted by: Jeh Johnson at February 28, 2015 05:58 AM (cL79m)

37 Grim food for thought, but accurate. When you have men with guns with the force of the state behind them, who have no problem flash-banging toddlers, shooting 7 year old girls in the head, killing pets for the fun of it, and have been indoctrinated to believe they are literally at war with the citizenry, it will get bloody.

Posted by: Insomniac at February 28, 2015 05:58 AM (AVWYi)

38 34 Vic can testify to the historical fact that what Leonidas actually said was: "Come and take them, but first you will blow me." Posted by: Sharkman at February 28, 2015 10:57 AM (72D6h) Persians weren't his type.

Posted by: Insomniac at February 28, 2015 05:59 AM (AVWYi)

39 Part of the problem of resistance is that when you can't tell the difference between the designated enemy and your own side it is awfully hard to lay down your life and your money in support.

When this band of thieves, murderers and criminals orders you to fight that band of thieves, murderers and criminals it gets complicated. 

Of course, with William Wallace and such you could appeal to nationalism and the fact that all the guys on your side are just like you.  Nowadays? Multiculturalism anyone? Relative Values anyone? 

I do think the center will hold, but only because of shared goals, beliefs and background.  I also think the progs see that strength as an existential threat and are trying to destroy it at every turn.

Posted by: Kindltot at February 28, 2015 05:59 AM (t//F+)

40 Great post, Weirddave!

I also think that Obama has been working hard to foment violence amongst citizens, such as with his race-baiting and opening up the southern border to criminals, MS-13 gangbangers, and cartels. Sure makes it easier when you have uppity citizen fending off multiple threats so they can't focus their attention on what the federal government is doing to them.

American Thinker had a post about this last summer:
http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2014/07/    importing_revolution.html

Ugh.


Posted by: Lizzy[/i] at February 28, 2015 06:00 AM (lHHyw)

41 "If only one in ten had been able to successfully resist ("success" being defined as taking at least one SS man with them), half of the people who wound up in concentration camps would have been spared."

This is a flaccid and silly analysis of the Holocaust.

The SS weren't the only troops actively enagaged in the murder of the untermenschen (primarily Jews). Regular German army units were used, and many partisans and conscripts all over Europe enthusiastically participated in the roundup and slaughter of Jews and others.

The German high command new full well that one of the primary goals of the Nazi effort was the destruction of European Jewry, as the use of huge amounts of war materiel and personnel will attest. If "one in ten" had resisted, then their tactic would have changed immediately. Say what you will, but the Nazis knew what they were doing, and unfortunately did it very well.

It is an insult to the memory of the millions of victims of the Nazi slaughter that they might have survived had they only been tougher.

Tell that to my 90-year old great-great-grandmother who was tossed into a firepit in western Russia by the Nazis.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 28, 2015 06:00 AM (Zu3d9)

42 Thanks for the reminder that it's the little day-to-day actions that can keep us out of a crisis situation. "Old Glory may be faded and tattered, but she's got a lot of life left in her. It's up to us to nurture that life."

Posted by: KT at February 28, 2015 06:00 AM (qahv/)

43 If someone takes your firearm(s), it really is easy to get more.

Posted by: Fritz at February 28, 2015 06:00 AM (UzPAd)

44 I am reporting you bitter clingers for terrorism. Posted by: Jeh Johnson We are already on the lists. I look forward to when they have to go thru every single sock that has been used. "...And which one of you is Mary Poppins' Perfectly Pierced Clitoris?"

Posted by: t-bird at February 28, 2015 06:01 AM (FcR7P)

45 LIV are more dangerous than any Gov Order or Rule Posted by: Nevergiveup at February 28, 2015 10:51 AM (rDqRv) ------------------------ This cannot be overemphasized enough. This current disaster, this giving away of our birthright for a mess of pottage, the blatant lues and corruption are only possible because of them.

Posted by: transgendered quokka at February 28, 2015 06:01 AM (3F6F8)

46 It probably won't come to violence. Rather it will be war by process server. There will be a notice to appear show up in your mailbox and you'll be told you will get your day in court to tell your side of the story. If you don't appear, you are then subject to arrest, at a traffic stop, at the drive thru window at McDonalds, at the grocery. It will be something innocuous like unpaid taxes, an invalid (or missing) permit, an expired license, or not having health insurance and not paying the 'fine'. Some simple little thing for which you might have a defense, presuming you can afford legal representation. Once you have surrendered, other, more serious violations will come to light. False news stories will fill the news media about you, and your reputation will be destroyed. Half the people who notice will think you are guilty. It will end, not with a bang, but with a sigh of resignation.

Posted by: Economics Loo at February 28, 2015 06:02 AM (mi0R9)

47 And how we burned in the camps later, thinking; What would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, would be uncertain if he would return alive and had to say goodbye to his family? Or if during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling in terror with every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood that they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand? After all, you knew ahead of time that those bluecaps were out at night for no good purpose. And you could be sure ahead of time that you'd be cracking the skull of a cutthroat Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

Posted by: kbdabear at February 28, 2015 06:02 AM (GrXXa)

48 This is just one scenario.

http://tinyurl.com/bbj9te6

Posted by: thatcrazyjerseyguy at February 28, 2015 06:03 AM (TPimP)

49 Until his PR performance got the worst of him, Cliven Bundy had much of the nation rallying to him, and the govt on the defensive. It just takes someone with balls to stand up, and many of us who maybe are made of less stern stuff will rally to the cause.

Posted by: Mark in Portland at February 28, 2015 06:03 AM (kbr2E)

50 If it comes to the point that they are making raids, I will not wait for them. I will pick my own battlefield. One lesson of the Spartans is to make every Spartan life very, very costly.

Posted by: adolfo_velasquez at February 28, 2015 06:03 AM (Z+7WE)

51
   Interesting question.

  Been on the very tip of that spear, and it's not an experience I'd really care to repeat.

  BUT--the oath I (and countless others ) swore has no expiration date.

   So come try and take them.

Posted by: irongrampa at February 28, 2015 06:04 AM (jeCnD)

52 Kdba That quote is the first thing I thought of reading this post.

Posted by: Typo dynamofo at February 28, 2015 06:05 AM (i7JE3)

53 well, well, I am sure dhs is downloading this thread. some one in a sub sub basement office is apopletic.

Posted by: yankeefifth at February 28, 2015 06:05 AM (gsfK5)

54 O/T : The "No-Shit-Sherlock" award of the day goes to Breitbart news. They are fracking shocked, SHOCKED! That Big Media is ignoring the Clintons illegal/corrupt/shady/immoral fund raising scheme/scam. News flash: Billy Jeff was visiting "Pedofile Isle" multiple times, and no one is touching that story either.

Posted by: Brave Sir Robin at February 28, 2015 06:06 AM (5buP8)

55 The last remaining Jews of the Warsaw Ghetto, alone, with virtually no food and only a few pistols and Molotov Cocktails were able to hold off the Schutzpolizei and then Waffen SS itself for several weeks before being bombed by aircraft, tanks and then gas and flamethrowers. Only pistols and Molotov cocktails.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at February 28, 2015 06:07 AM (CMkNk)

56 well, well, I am sure dhs is downloading this thread. some one in a sub sub basement office is apopletic.

Posted by: yankeefifth at February 28, 2015 11:05 AM (gsfK5)


Or rubbing their hands together and cackling with glee, "Yes! We've got them now, those horrible, freedom-loving, bitter clingers!"

Posted by: right wing whippersnapper at February 28, 2015 06:08 AM (ThxKk)

57 Nicely written and useful article. I have to say I was feeling a wee bit smug as I started your article thinking you had missed by starting with molon labe since the base upon which that rests is lives fortune and sacred honor, which you got to.

Posted by: yankeefifth at February 28, 2015 06:09 AM (gsfK5)

58 F***. I've reached the point where my gallows humor is accompanied by tears. I gotta get off this thread. Maybe I'll go to the gym and get some exercise. bbl

Posted by: right wing whippersnapper at February 28, 2015 06:10 AM (ThxKk)

59 "...And which one of you is Mary Poppins' Perfectly Pierced Clitoris?" Ok, that's pretty funny.

Posted by: Brave Sir Robin at February 28, 2015 06:10 AM (5buP8)

60 “Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!” - Patrick Henry

Posted by: toby928(C) at February 28, 2015 06:11 AM (rwI+c)

61 Posted by spypeach: "...Maybe we should start with some good old fashioned protests..." This. We need to stop being the refined, erudite thinkers who go to work and don't have time for protests. I believe there are more of us than 'them', but we just don't show our numbers because protesting is so dirty.

Posted by: Daisy Cutter at February 28, 2015 06:11 AM (myGBe)

62 Which is why South American countries end up with death squads on both sides, with both sides killing opponents and their families. In the brutal calculus of struggle, it makes sense: they figure that there's no point fighting by Marquis of Queensbury rules if your opponent does not.

Posted by: Jay Guevara at February 28, 2015 10:55 AM (oKE6c)


**********************


Much too complex a subject to cover in a short post. However, I think it far more likely that we devolve into outright gang rule, and ultimately warlordism, in the inner cities than that the Feds come after the blue-state suburbs. Not that they don't want to go after the suburbs, but the gang/warlord threat to the regime will prove more problematic than any middle class guy with a shotgun and 9mm at home, and they will be forced to deal with that threat because it threatens the tax base. They do not have enough men who can be trusted to be loyal (especially if, as Jay notes, those men have a real fear of reprisal) to go after the red state suburbs or rural areas anywhere, except beyond isolated symbolic actions. If the rule of law continues to degenerate to a point where the law is widely ignored, it will be in the inner cities first, especially as the money starts to run out (see the Chicago bond rating article posted by Vic). The tipping point is not that far away, and the time will come where the nation needs its producers more thn its leeches. It will be a tough next decade or so, but in the end we are going to come out of it with a renewed sense of federalism and some correction to the idiocy of the last generation.

Posted by: Caesar North of the Rubicon at February 28, 2015 06:11 AM (5f5bM)

63 FWIW, I love the movie 300. I know it probably has zero basis in reality, but the bad-assedness gets me every time. Even my wife, who isn't into gore, likes that flick.
Posted by: Brave Sir Robin at February 28, 2015 10:56 AM (5buP


300 was based on (a very small part of) Herodotus's Histories.  It is an interesting read.

No rhinoceroses were involved in the battle of Thermopylae.

Posted by: Kindltot at February 28, 2015 06:11 AM (t//F+)

64 CBD: I just saw your comment and believe me, I agree and mean absolutely no disrespect of your ancestors. One cannot rewrite or replay history with other factors, i.e. an armed Jewish populace. What the point is, I think, is that if we are to take heed of the lesson of the Shoah and the Ghetto, we are to be fully prepared as best we can be in order to try and prevent violence unless and until every possible other nonviolent avenue of protest and redress of grievances is exhausted. The only question is the temperature on the frog in the hot water is being turned up and our rights and freedoms eroded bit by bit by bit. When DO we take a stand? And how do we take a stand to stop this? The elections are meaningless now with a non-opposition party and a leftist leviathan that will just grind us to dust with the very law they seek to usurp/ignore/overrule.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at February 28, 2015 06:12 AM (CMkNk)

65 That we'll have to answer the question (and not in a hypothetical way) is inevitable. The only question is whether we'll have to answer it before November 2016 or very shortly after November 2016.

Posted by: steveegg at February 28, 2015 06:12 AM (cL79m)

66 Persians weren't his type. Posted by: Insomniac at February 28, 2015 10:59 AM (AVWYi) True, but of course the point of him saying it would be to have Xerxes on his knees first if he wanted Leo's weapon. Much the same way this fucking government had better be on its knees before it is able to take ours.

Posted by: Sharkman at February 28, 2015 06:13 AM (72D6h)

67 I'm not so such it will be bloody, but somethings coming and it won't be good.

Imagine for a minute that by some miracle we elect, a Walker/Cruz/Jindel to the Presidency and we retain congress.  Does anyone think the political atmosphere will change enough that the GOP leadership will tell the people that the only way to save ourselves economic collapse is to start eliminating entire cabinet departments, drastically change our entitlement system, strip the federal government down to the bare bones, etc. then actually do it? Not going to happen.

Our political class will play around the edges till our fiscal policies lead us to ruin. That's when actually change will come, probably a break down of the union. I just don't see it staying intact.

Posted by: lowandslow at February 28, 2015 06:13 AM (0KY4M)

68 Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take but as for me, give me liberty or give me death - PH Posted by: toby928 ever since I read your quoted lines in second grade they have given me goose bumps, always will.

Posted by: yankeefifth at February 28, 2015 06:14 AM (gsfK5)

69 This blog needs its own space program. Why not? We can pick up some surplus rockets for cheap. Which one of you morons wants to volunteer to be on our first moroned space flight?

Posted by: Bruce J. at February 28, 2015 06:14 AM (iQIUe)

70 Whether you are interested in the Burning Times or not, the Burning Times are interested in you. 

Posted by: Ricardo Kill at February 28, 2015 06:14 AM (rtx5c)

71 If the breaking point comes, it will come suddenly.

Posted by: toby928(C) at February 28, 2015 06:15 AM (rwI+c)

72 The only nonviolent avenue left to us is an Article V Convention to propose amendments that restore the power back to the States. That's the only way forward. And if we do restore what was destroyed and the Feds STILL ignore the rule of law, then - and only then - all bets are off.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at February 28, 2015 06:15 AM (CMkNk)

73 Bear in mind that Tories made up nigh unto half of the population back in the Revolutionary days. Neighbors and friends of the Sons of Liberty. What do you guys talk about at neighborhood barbecues?

Posted by: I lurk, therefore I amn't at February 28, 2015 06:16 AM (TqyFL)

74 It's happy thoughts like this that make me glad: 1) I never applied for CC. 2) My Father in law had a FFL, and he left all of his gear to me. As far as the Man knows, I am in possession of 1 pump action 12 gauge. And that was lost in a boating accident and resides at the bottom of Tablerock Lake.

Posted by: Brave Sir Robin at February 28, 2015 06:16 AM (5buP8)

75 It is an insult to the memory of the millions of victims of the Nazi slaughter that they might have survived had they only been tougher.

It wasn't my intention to imply that at all, and in most cases the victims of the Holocaust didn't have the means at hand to resist anyway. It is also beyond the scope of my post to do a detailed analysis of manpower use in Nazi Germany, regular wermacht troops may have been employed in the genocide, but SS troops weren't used only for rounding up people either. My point was simply to try and make people think about the ramifications of the Second Amendment. We all know that it's there to give Americans the ability to resist a Holocaust type situation, but few bother to think through what that actually means.

Posted by: Weirddave at February 28, 2015 06:16 AM (WvS3w)

76 "ever since I read your quoted lines in second grade they have given me goose bumps, always will." These words are no longer taught in any public school curriculum. But, We can spend three weeks in eighth Grade, talking about the struggle of Trayvon Martin against the racism inherent in the judicial system.

Posted by: Village Idiot's Apprentice at February 28, 2015 06:16 AM (WpgvJ)

77 The basic premise of 'What I Saw at the Coup' is that LEOs, unlike the SS, have a lot less enthusiasm for showing up for work when hostile reprisal is likely.

Posted by: Zap Rowsdower at February 28, 2015 06:17 AM (MMC8r)

78 I think one of the problems with dealing with the commie left in these matters is that as Giuliani pointed out about obama, they do not love America. Since they do not love America anything they can do to wreck it is a net gain for them whether they chop a piece off the foundation or bring the whole tower down. If you love America it is much more difficult to protect America and fend off the communists without damaging America.

Posted by: yankeefifth at February 28, 2015 06:17 AM (gsfK5)

79 Keep in mind that proggies and socialists, even the "money is evil" Occupoopers are deeply passionately madly in love with their OWN money. It takes a lot of resources to oppress people, and everyone wants to get paid. The government lives on borrowed and printed money that fears the day when people no longer trust the promise on the promissory notes or that if the dollar is no longer worth the paper or binary digits that it consists of. Right now all of us have something to lose, it's when people have nothing to lose that it's game over for the oppressors. All in all, the end will be brought about not by internal opposition, but by circumstances beyond the control of the elite who control the government. It won't be pretty and painless for anyone, but that's how history goes.

Posted by: kbdabear at February 28, 2015 06:18 AM (GrXXa)

80 Civil disobedience is a long American tradition, starting with Thoreau. I think that's more likely than a violent civil war. Leftists would have a hard time fighting back against it because they've elevated people like Gandhi and Martin Luther King to sainthood. The large numbers of people who've not registered their guns and magazines in NY are a good example for the rest of us to follow.

Posted by: adolfo_velasquez at February 28, 2015 06:19 AM (Z+7WE)

81 ever since I read your quoted lines in second grade they have given me goose bumps, always will." These words are no longer taught in any public school curriculum. But, We can spend three weeks in eighth Grade, talking about the struggle of Trayvon Martin against the racism inherent in the judicial system. Posted by: Village Idiot's Apprentice at February 28, 2015 11:16 AM (WpgvJ) Oddly I read those words in a book my mom bought and insisted I read. Go Mom!

Posted by: yankeefifth at February 28, 2015 06:19 AM (gsfK5)

82 I can't really take any more today. With due respect to Joey Choo Choo Bidet, (that is to say, none) I'm off to play with my trains. Take care kids.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at February 28, 2015 06:20 AM (CMkNk)

83 I think there could be a couple of wild cards that I hope and pray might be in our favor.

1.  The US military
2.  Some of the ATF and other agencies personal might be on our side.


We can't stand alone against the government.  Not to sound to crazy, we need to organize morons who think like us, or start thinking tribal.  My family already has a ground zero plan, and thank God we live in an area we can hide and defend.  Yes we will probably die.

Posted by: midwest at February 28, 2015 06:20 AM (dMB3r)

84 It is also beyond the scope of my post to do a detailed analysis of manpower use in Nazi Germany, regular wermacht troops may have been employed in the genocide, but SS troops weren't used only for rounding up people either. --- If you don't have time to thoroughly research an example, perhaps use another one.

Posted by: Y-not at February 28, 2015 06:20 AM (9BRsg)

85 False news stories will fill the news media about you, and your reputation will be destroyed. Half the people who notice will think you are guilty. It will end, not with a bang, but with a sigh of resignation. Posted by: Economics Loo The New Fascism is already here. The guy from the EPA looking into your company's stormwater permit. Land regulations. Really instrusive building code inspections. Annual auto inspections to keep your car registered to drive. Home Owner's Associations. Deed restrictions. The Fascism won't wear jackboots and snappy Hugo Boss black uniforms. They'll wear polo shirts, drive drab government issue Chrysler 200's, and pester you to madness with regulations. And your kids in school will be fed a lot of stupid drivel written to make their minds mush, and to learn to hate reading because the books they read celebrate some Lesbian heroine and her dildo. Most of the drones in government loathe the private citizen at some level, just as they quietly loathe their jobs and themselves. We have traded freedom, liberty and our self respect for a handful of magic beans, empty promises and belief in "social security" in a Great Society.

Posted by: Bossy Conservative....in the bleak midwinter at February 28, 2015 06:21 AM (+1T7c)

86 Another grand slam into the upper deck, Dave. ___ "And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand?. . . The Organs would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt! If. . . if. . . We didn't love freedom enough. And even more -- we had no awareness of the real situation. . . We purely and simply deserved everything that happened afterward." ~ Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn --- The lesson there is that patriots should be doing research on the individuals who will come to kick in our doors, noting their home addresses and the names of their wives and children for the purpose of retaliation. They can't attack us and defend their families at the same time. Yes, that's ugly as shit, but that's what happens in a real civil war.

Posted by: rickl at February 28, 2015 06:21 AM (sdi6R)

87 71 If the breaking point comes, it will come suddenly.

Posted by: toby928(C) at February 28, 2015 11:15 AM (rwI+c)




Safest prediction on three planets.

Posted by: Jay Guevara[/i][/b][/s][/u] at February 28, 2015 06:21 AM (oKE6c)

88 The large numbers of people who've not registered their guns and magazines in NY are a good example for the rest of us to follow. Posted by: adolfo_velasquez at February 28, 2015 11:19 AM (Z+7WE) Yeah well that's fine and dandy, but some of us have to much to lose over a felony arrest

Posted by: Nevergiveup at February 28, 2015 06:21 AM (rDqRv)

89
It takes a lot of resources to oppress people, and everyone wants to get paid. The government lives on borrowed and printed money that fears the day when people no longer trust the promise on the promissory notes or that if the dollar is no longer worth the paper or binary digits that it consists of.


And widespread civil unrest, particularly among the non-poor class for a change, makes economic flow very difficult.

Posted by: Zap Rowsdower at February 28, 2015 06:21 AM (MMC8r)

90 I would love an Article V convention but not now. We can not even fully leverage control of two branches of the government. If conservatives were involved in a convention now the bill of rights would be replaced with a bill of obligations.

Posted by: yankeefifth at February 28, 2015 06:22 AM (gsfK5)

91 A few years ago they were having teach ins in public schools about Tookie, so maybe trayvon is a step up.

Posted by: Bruce J. at February 28, 2015 06:22 AM (iQIUe)

92 I had a small argument with someone yesterday about respecting gun laws, specifically here in Maryland. Her position was that her son should not do anything that is against the law, that that is not what she is teaching him. I said 'which law' are you teaching him, the one where Maryland says who can and who cannot own a gun, or the one that is written on parchment Dec. 15th 1791?

Posted by: Daisy Cutter at February 28, 2015 06:22 AM (myGBe)

93 I personally don't believe that most aren't prepared nor will resist confiscation done GRADUALLY.

And that's the key. If they try an en masse confiscation they will excite and receive an en masse reaction. I think they will do it gradually and with plenty of "justification" using the Government Media to make sure the false reasons are presented as true.

It will take someone innocent (and probably more than one)dying or an egregious action that rouses sufficient revulsion and anger that enough might stand up and say "enough" and mean it.

I have doubts this will happen due to the fact that as you enunciated, the first will die and so will the second. Only until enough stand up together will it become dangerous for them to act but they still have options we don't.

We're too well fed, comfortable and have not yet completely lost hope yet that we can change the paradigm (it's only two more years some will say) and the costs are very large. (we can't even agree that Obama isn't stupid and that he's doing all this as a planned action and/or that he's a Muslim and doing this as a way to destroy the US even though it's imminently obvious to any objective viewer.)

It's hard to predict what people will do in certain situations but I see that those with the will and determination are spread out and those with the numbers don't have the will nor the organization.

This is why the move on bullets. Make them illegal and places like Walmart will do the heavy lifting of taking the ammo off the shelves.

Raise the price of ammo and the states and other law enforcers will put it upon the merchants to be the front line.


Remember; leftists are nothing if not cowards and sneaks. They will not stand and face anyone and fight "fair".

They never have and they never will.

Posted by: Bitter Clinger and All That at February 28, 2015 06:22 AM (zRby/)

94

The only nonviolent avenue left to us is an Article V Convention to propose amendments that restore the power back to the States.

 

That's the only way forward. And if we do restore what was destroyed and the Feds STILL ignore the rule of law, then - and only then - all bets are off.

 

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at February 28, 2015 11:15 AM (CMkNk)

 

That's a matter of WHEN the Feds ignore (or more properly, usurp) the rule of law.  Do remember that it is Congress who determines who sits on the Article V Convention as the calling authority - the states are merely petitioners.

Posted by: steveegg at February 28, 2015 06:23 AM (cL79m)

95 Crap. I've fallen, so... molon labe!

Posted by: Hillary at February 28, 2015 06:23 AM (FcR7P)

96 >>The basic premise of 'What I Saw at the Coup' is that LEOs, unlike the SS, have a lot less enthusiasm for showing up for work when hostile reprisal is likely.

The LEOs have an additional dilemma in that Obama and many blue state government have effectively turned on them, instead supporting the Ferguson protesters over their own police. De Blasio is just the biggest example, but here in Denver the chief of police ordered his own officers to stand down while a rioting crowd dumped red paint on the fallen officers memorial. He was later backed up by our Mayor.

So...whose side are the LEOs on when it all goes down?

Posted by: Lizzy[/i] at February 28, 2015 06:24 AM (lHHyw)

97 If you don't have time to thoroughly research an example, perhaps use another one. Posted by: Y-not at February 28, 2015 11:20 AM (9BRsg) Y-not, Weirddave isn't saying more Jews and other victims of the Holocaust might have survived if they'd been "tougher". He's saying that if everyone had been armed, and only a few people had resisted (the average percentage of resisters even in a tough-talking AoS thread would probably only be one or two percent) then the SS would have got the message and perhaps Hitler, too. I don't think Dave really meant to imply that every Jew had to be superman and "take one with him" in order for half the people who were murdered to survive. Just my take. I don't find what he's written to be offensive, just true. Mass murder almost always only happens where a population is unarmed.

Posted by: Sharkman at February 28, 2015 06:24 AM (72D6h)

98 What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family?


This brings out a crucial distinction: the people being arrested are fighting for their lives, and have nothing to lose. Those carrying out the arrests are working for a paycheck, and have everything to lose. When some among them start losing everything, the paycheck doesn't look so attractive anymore.

Posted by: Jay Guevara[/i][/b][/s][/u] at February 28, 2015 06:25 AM (oKE6c)

99 We've run out of squirrels, bring out the llamas!!

Posted by: The MSM at February 28, 2015 06:25 AM (GrXXa)

100 What really sucks is all this could be stopped in it;'s track and completely turned around in a couple elections..  Around 50-60% of the electorate takes part in presidentioal alections and only 30% or less in congressional elections.  Tens of millions of those NOT voting are conservatives/libertarians who are too busy, don't really care etc...  All they have to do is dedicate one hour every couple of years and that would stop all this.  But so many just don't pay much attention just like the LIV's.  Actually they are LIV's, but with a conservative viewpoint.  But they are just as poorly informed. They don't like where we are going but don't know how bad things are  because they too rely on the MSM and swallow so many of their lies. They are unaware how bad things are and true danger we are in.  I know more than a few. And just like most of America they think and know  more about professional sports, latest styles, new reality TV show, vacation hot spots etc... than politics. And fail to vote.

Posted by: George Orwell de Leon at February 28, 2015 06:26 AM (1BQGO)

101 77 The basic premise of 'What I Saw at the Coup' is that LEOs, unlike the SS, have a lot less enthusiasm for showing up for work when hostile reprisal is likely. Posted by: Zap Rowsdower at February 28, 2015 11:17 AM (MMC8r) And I wonder if the response of LEOs would instead to become even more violent. I think it would be a mixed bag.

Posted by: Insomniac at February 28, 2015 06:27 AM (AVWYi)

102 This brings out a crucial distinction: the people being arrested are fighting for their lives, and have nothing to lose. Those carrying out the arrests are working for a paycheck, and have everything to lose. When some among them start losing everything, the paycheck doesn't look so attractive anymore. Posted by: Jay Guevara at February 28, 2015 11:25 AM (oKE6c) I think it is something of an aberration but we saw in new orleans how much a pay check was worth after katrina.

Posted by: yankeefifth at February 28, 2015 06:27 AM (gsfK5)

103 the SS would have got the message and perhaps Hitler, too.

Posted by: Sharkman at February 28, 2015 11:24 AM (72D6h)

Total crap. This flies in the face of millions of pages of scholarship on the issue.

Hitler was willing to jeopardize the Nazi war effort to kill the Jews. Do you honestly think that even significant resistance would have changed his mind?

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 28, 2015 06:28 AM (Zu3d9)

104

Civil disobedience is a long American tradition, starting with Thoreau. I think that's more likely than a violent civil war. Leftists would have a hard time fighting back against it because they've elevated people like Gandhi and Martin Luther King to sainthood.

 

The large numbers of people who've not registered their guns and magazines in NY are a good example for the rest of us to follow.

 

Posted by: adolfo_velasquez at February 28, 2015 11:19 AM (Z+7WE)

 

Civil disobedience works only when the oppressors have a soul.  The modern Left has no soul.

Posted by: steveegg at February 28, 2015 06:28 AM (cL79m)

105 Her position was that her son should not do anything that is against the law Her son, if he's keenly observant, will learn not to do anything against the lawmakers. Everyone breaks the law under the Administrative State, but all is forgiven if you're part of that State.

Posted by: t-bird at February 28, 2015 06:29 AM (FcR7P)

106 This is why I like the story of Custer's last stand. The vainglorious s.o.b. had it coming.

Posted by: navybrat at February 28, 2015 06:29 AM (JgC5a)

107 And I wonder if the response of LEOs would instead to become even more violent. I think it would be a mixed bag.

Posted by: Insomniac at February 28, 2015 11:27 AM (AVWYi)



The wild card here is the ghettos. If authorities go after productive citizens in a big way, they leave the ghettos to their own devices. We can easily predict what will happen there. Now while the ghettos are economically worthless, widespread rioting and looting there will constitute a real problem for the authorities, and will spread if not contained.

Posted by: Jay Guevara[/i][/b][/s][/u] at February 28, 2015 06:30 AM (oKE6c)

108 I wish someone would explain how donating money to any political cause will further that cause. The usual response is that the money allows the cause to "get the word out." Today, most of the "word" getting out about causes is through the internet (exactly why the government wants to control it) and most donations of money are not used for the purpose the donor is told it will be used (e.g., Chris McDaniel's legal challenge that never really materialized because he filed outside the limitations period - purposefully, in my opinion).

Posted by: jumpininhere at February 28, 2015 06:30 AM (gs1Pm)

109 "Remember; leftists are nothing if not cowards and sneaks. They will not stand and face anyone and fight "fair".
They never have and they never will."

Historically I wouldn't call them cowards, but their culture made them kindof ruthless. Today's culture in the American left isn't ruthless when in comes to using violence to get what they want.  Some Twitter rant or a heated discussion at the local coffeeshop ain't going to cut when the shit hits the fan.  That's why I think it isn't going to be violent revolution.

Posted by: lowandslow at February 28, 2015 06:30 AM (0KY4M)

110 >>> I love the movie 300. I know it probably has zero basis in reality, No, quite real, but all the good Laconic quotes were not necessarily from that event. As Leonaides said to the non-Spartan leader, "See, I have brought more soldiers than you." They were mean, hard bastards and they killed a lot of Persians.

Posted by: fluffy at February 28, 2015 06:30 AM (Ua6T/)

111 Civil disobedience works only when the oppressors have a soul. The modern Left has no soul. I think they have souls, but those souls are twisted, evil ones that would have them grinning from ear to ear as they rounded their political enemies onto the cattle cars.

Posted by: Insomniac at February 28, 2015 06:31 AM (AVWYi)

112 If we are going to deal with the communists we have to stop being reasonable. We spend way too much time with a businessman's mindset of lets be reasonable and see how we can get to a win-win solution. Communists are not looking for a win win solution, they are playing a zero sum game, politics, not business. If we start with something along the lines of "we are never going to deport 11 million" we are losing from he beginning. We should seriously be considering how to get as many of the 11 million out of here whether it is self deportation or rounded up and frog marched back in the heat of the day.

Posted by: yankeefifth at February 28, 2015 06:32 AM (gsfK5)

113 >>Now while the ghettos are economically worthless, widespread rioting and looting there will constitute a real problem for the authorities, and will spread if not contained.

And yet this seems to be what Obama wants. He is all about whipping up outrage over Trayvon, Brown, Garner, etc. and then lecturing us that we just have to accept the inconvenience as the crowds block bridges and shoot policemen. Same goes for OWS.

Posted by: Lizzy[/i] at February 28, 2015 06:32 AM (lHHyw)

114

I think they have souls, but those souls are twisted, evil ones that would have them grinning from ear to ear as they rounded their political enemies onto the cattle cars.

 

Posted by: Insomniac at February 28, 2015 11:31 AM (AVWYi)

 

Point well-noted.

Posted by: steveegg at February 28, 2015 06:33 AM (cL79m)

115 8 There is a power in having nothing to lose Posted by: Tmitsss at February 28, 2015 10:42 AM (Tt6V6) Indeed. Patriots who are diagnosed with terminal cancer might think about what they can do to make their last days meaningful.

Posted by: rickl at February 28, 2015 06:33 AM (sdi6R)

116 I think it is something of an aberration but we saw in new orleans how much a pay check was worth after katrina.

Posted by: yankeefifth at February 28, 2015 11:27 AM (gsfK5)




The issue turns on commitment. If those doing the arresting are committed, true believers, that's one thing. If they're just thugs, glorified day laborers working for a paycheck, that's another.


(Btw, I characterize them as "those doing the arresting" because I doubt that most LEOs would participate. More likely would be taking on ghetto thugs to do the dirty work and get back at whitey at the same time. Forging them into a disciplined, organized force would be a Sisyphean task.)

Posted by: Jay Guevara[/i][/b][/s][/u] at February 28, 2015 06:34 AM (oKE6c)

117
And I wonder if the response of LEOs would instead to become even more violent. I think it would be a mixed bag.


They might.  But it's worth noting that:

"On October 31, 2013, a total of 35,344 people worked for the FBI, including 13,598 special agents and 21,746 professional staff. Among our employees are 15,296 women, 8,650 minorities, and 1,302 persons with disabilities.

Reference: www.fbi.gov/about-us/faqs"

Add to that state and local law-enforcement, and it's still very few people intended to control society.  They really need society to think they're on their side, or they're vastly outnumbered.

On the converse, the NRA has what, more than 5 million members?

Posted by: Zap Rowsdower at February 28, 2015 06:35 AM (MMC8r)

118 When will the public have a public figure openly defy the tyranny of BO? At least the Russian dissidents are willing to die. The present state of Americans, especially the younger age, are content with the lose of their freedoms as long as it does not disrupt their ability to surf the net, secrecy, question the color of a celebrities dress, hit Starbucks. What is happening in Russia under Putin, the random murder of those who defy Puutin, will most likely start in the US, being described either as the acts of right wing extremists , work place violence or unemployed jihadist. There needs to be a open defiance by the people, the States but just don't see it happening unless there is a event that solidifies the public against BO, the Feds. BO knows, given the current malaise of the GOP, there is no hinderance to his actions and whims. Hell bent on destroying the country much to George Soros glee.

Posted by: Hoping at February 28, 2015 06:35 AM (SNqwm)

119 And yet this seems to be what Obama wants. He is all about whipping up outrage over Trayvon, Brown, Garner, etc. and then lecturing us that we just have to accept the inconvenience as the crowds block bridges and shoot policemen. Same goes for OWS.

Posted by: Lizzy at February 28, 2015 11:32 AM (lHHyw)



Yeah, but the circumstances differ. Now the Reds want disorder because it serves their purposes. At the point where they start rounding up loyal Americans, disorder impedes them from their purposes. If the Reds seize real power, the OWS assholes will be among the very first in the cattle cars, because they're worthless pains in the ass, and will have served their purpose.

Posted by: Jay Guevara[/i][/b][/s][/u] at February 28, 2015 06:37 AM (oKE6c)

120
  I still hold that our problem should be resolved peacefully.


   If this turns out to be completely impossible then I'll pick up the weapon and there will be no quit until either I or my enemy is dead.

  And for now I wish not to discuss this further.

Posted by: irongrampa at February 28, 2015 06:37 AM (jeCnD)

121 The Soviet Union wasn't brought down by defeat in war or by internal revolution, it was brought down by apathy of Russians who weren't getting paid by a bankrupt government and who no longer paid attention to the propaganda machinery of the Kremlin. The pronouncements of "ever glorious revolution" was met with the Russian equivalent of "yeh, whatever". The most common joke of the Russians in the 80s was "they pretend to pay us, we pretend to work" The EU citizens have happy face socialism, but even their allowance of sexual liberties have bored the people to the point where they no longer even have interest in reproducing. They're going through the motions, not really aspiring to much other than hoping their next holiday brings some excitement. Without freedom, the citizenry becomes lethargic and unproductive, the society withers and dies.

Posted by: kbdabear at February 28, 2015 06:38 AM (GrXXa)

122 Way off topic here... but I think its worth noting anyway. Loaded up my u-verse app this morning like i normally do. Most channels unavailable and for fun checked msnbc. Working just fine. Curious and has never happened before. Tinfoil hat placed firmly on head.

Posted by: STB applauding... at February 28, 2015 06:38 AM (qby7P)

123 I'm trying to watch season 3 of House of Cards but find it very boring. What's up with this stupid 40k job program?

Posted by: Bruce J. at February 28, 2015 06:39 AM (iQIUe)

124 I disagree that leftists have no souls. The leaders of the left are ruthless, but the average left-leaning LIV still doesn't like to see commando squads killing old men because they won't give up their land.

Posted by: adolfo_velasquez at February 28, 2015 06:40 AM (Z+7WE)

125 Here's the calligrapher who prepared the Book of Hours for Wolf Hall: http://goo.gl/5Imko9 It's a cute scene where Cromwell's little daughter uses her finger to trace each illuminated picture and runs around wearing angel wings.

Posted by: Bruce J. at February 28, 2015 06:42 AM (iQIUe)

126 Posted by: kbdabear at February 28, 2015 11:02 AM (GrXXa) This. Sooner or later, they must fear for their lives.

Posted by: wisenheimer at February 28, 2015 06:42 AM (qnhj2)

127 I'm not so sure that a few people on the left dying when they come to take our weapons would stop the whole thing rather quickly. Leftists aren't very brave. Government leftists are cowards that depend on our civility to live.

Posted by: Jukin at February 28, 2015 06:43 AM (WGm5T)

128

If the Reds seize real power, the OWS assholes will be among the very first in the cattle cars, because they're worthless pains in the ass, and will have served their purpose.

 

Posted by: Jay Guevara at February 28, 2015 11:37 AM (oKE6c)

 

Sort of like the SD, then.

Posted by: steveegg at February 28, 2015 06:43 AM (cL79m)

129

I disagree that leftists have no souls. The leaders of the left are ruthless, but the average left-leaning LIV still doesn't like to see commando squads killing old men because they won't give up their land.

 

Posted by: adolfo_velasquez at February 28, 2015 11:40 AM (Z+7WE)

 

Who said that would be publicized?  Remember, the ObamiNation controls the Internet now, and their Presstitute Organs can be relied on to jizz only on command.

Posted by: steveegg at February 28, 2015 06:45 AM (cL79m)

130 Don't forget, it was the colonials who refused to pay taxes, and harassed the King's tax collectors that led the King to declare the colonies in rebellion. Then he send in the military to protect the tax collectors and court functionaries. That was what the TEA party was all about. They weren't going to pay the tax on that tea. It was 'no go zones' for the Kings tax collectors, and customs inspectors.

Posted by: Economics Loo at February 28, 2015 06:45 AM (mi0R9)

131 Total crap. This flies in the face of millions of pages of scholarship on the issue. Hitler was willing to jeopardize the Nazi war effort to kill the Jews. Do you honestly think that even significant resistance would have changed his mind? Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 28, 2015 11:28 AM (Zu3d9) Well, given the fact that I haven't had time to read said millions of pages of scholarship on this particular issue, I guess my opinion is based on what I know about human nature and about the history of dictatorships, which happens to be a fucking shit-ton. My opinion is based on the fact that Hitler and the Germans' persecution of the Jews and the building of the concentration camp system started slow and took many years to get to the point where millions were herded into cattle cars and exterminated. Had people had the means to defend themselves AT THE START, and had done so, even if only a small percentage, then perhaps Hitler and the SS would have taken a different direction. Dachau, the first German "concentration camp" per se, was opened in March of 1933, 6 years before "the war effort" started with the invasion of my home country, Poland (which was effectively destroyed in WWII, so I have a few relatives who were murdered, too, just like a lot on this thread). The Wannsee Conference, which was where the formal decision to exterminate the Jews was taken, occurred January 30, 1942. That conference may never have taken place had the victims been able to defend themselves a full 9 years earlier. But, of course, they had no idea what was coming. Which is the entire fucking point of the population being armed. Had the first SS prick through the door paid the ultimate price, in 1933, or even earlier, then the Holocaust would never have happened. That's my opinion, and it has nothing to do with how "tough" the Jews were, nor whether Hitler was an incompetent military commander. It has to do with human nature. We never know what insanity will become politically popular. Better to be armed and ready to defend yourself right from the start, and crack the head of the first prick who thinks he can break the law, then in the long run the entire populace has a better chance of survival. Don't need to read millions of pages of scholarship to reach that conclusion.

Posted by: Sharkman at February 28, 2015 06:45 AM (72D6h)

132 Most excellent post.  You know this will be classified as "hate speech" and the Feds mind control group will be labeling the HQ a threat.



Fcuk, so be it.  Sadly I fear we have become a nation of sheep.  Just make sure my TV works, and don't disturb me.


Big Brother, aka The One, will look after us.


Bring that orgamatron over, I need a hit


http://tinyurl.com/l5cuqvv

Posted by: Nip Sip at February 28, 2015 06:47 AM (0FSuD)

133 When freedom is all you have left to lose, then you fight until you die.

I have long held the belief I will not live to see the end of the war but I can safely say I have the tools available to make it extremely nasty for the goverment agents.

Posted by: Gmac- Pulling in feelers in preperation... at February 28, 2015 06:47 AM (74McK)

134 Er, SA, or Sturmabteilung.

Posted by: steveegg at February 28, 2015 06:48 AM (cL79m)

135 131 Totally agree...

Posted by: Hoping at February 28, 2015 06:49 AM (SNqwm)

136 Molon llabe, eh. So be it.

Posted by: ATF at February 28, 2015 06:49 AM (kSFil)

137 Solzhenitsyn had some relevant opinions on the subject.

It took a few years locked up in the gulag to arrive at them, but he did.

Google "and how we burned".

Posted by: Jack at February 28, 2015 06:49 AM (4HYng)

138 Bravo Dave, bravo! It's is about survival. The jews of France, England, Sweden, Belgium, Turkey, everywhere need to listen to this. The Jews here It is imperative to fight for the right to defend yourself because one way or another it is up to you

Posted by: ThunderB, Shapeshifter at February 28, 2015 06:50 AM (Sh0n/)

139 134 Er, SA, or Sturmabteilung.

Posted by: steveegg at February 28, 2015 11:48 AM (cL79m)




It's cool. I knew what you meant, and I agree.

Posted by: Jay Guevara[/i][/b][/s][/u] at February 28, 2015 06:50 AM (oKE6c)

140 The orgasmatron in Barbarella was better.

Posted by: Economics Loo at February 28, 2015 06:51 AM (mi0R9)

141 71 If the breaking point comes, it will come suddenly.

Posted by: toby928(C) at February 28, 2015 11:15 AM (rwI+c)


I agree.  I see ISIS setting off a dirty nuke bomb, Obama declaring martial law and suspending elections.


Just saying, he has the power now to do that in a "national emergency"

Posted by: Nip Sip at February 28, 2015 06:53 AM (0FSuD)

142 There is one huge wild card; The dollar is the world's reserve currency because the world believes that the USA is stable and built on the rule of law. If the whims of a prissy dilettante who does what he wants become the norm, then the big money starts to doubt the stability of the USA and the dollar. Obama's lust for grabbing other peoples money (other than big money patrons like Soros) has even led them to force the Swiss to welch on their own privacy laws. The Swiss banks did this under threat of being cut off from foreign exchange reconciliation. Sooner or later, the big money keeping the Federal Reserve ponzi going are going to start looking for alternatives

Posted by: kbdabear at February 28, 2015 06:53 AM (GrXXa)

143
"Then we shall fight in the shade..."

Posted by: Jack at February 28, 2015 06:54 AM (4HYng)

144 The translator is a traitor because it's impossible to convey everything in the language A properly in language B. (No criticism of translators - I certainly couldn't do that, in any language - but a recognition of the difficulty.) "Molon Labe" = "Come and take them" is such a lovely phrase that I've read commentary on the translation. "Come and take them" accurately depicts the pithiness and the gist of the instructions. The tense isn't the same, but we don't use the tense in English (Literally, "Having come, take (them).") What English can convey - but not without losing the lovely succinctness - is that Leonidas was speaking to Xerxes personally; the conjugation used was second person singular. So the meaning was "You (singular) come (here), then (indicated in the verb tense) take (them)."

Posted by: Elizabeth Creegan at February 28, 2015 06:55 AM (R7Z09)

145 It's important not to simply count noses as a basis for deciding who will win. Look at the holy hell even small Red cells (e.g., Baader-Meinhof, Red Army Faction) have raised. When the Soviets invaded Afghanistan I thought that they didn't have a chance; use an army of 100,000 to control 23 million people living in mountainous territory, 23 million who really do not want to be controlled? Good luck to you, I thought. In that circumstance, the best you can do is hold some cities. That's it. And even that can become problematic.

Posted by: Jay Guevara[/i][/b][/s][/u] at February 28, 2015 06:56 AM (oKE6c)

146 Luckily for us, Attorney General Eric Holder only called us cowards and left it at that.

Posted by: Fritz at February 28, 2015 06:57 AM (UzPAd)

147 For my measure, if things ever get hot, I'm not going down without a fight, and I intend to try to take some of the enemy (whomever that might be) with me. My thinking is these bastards don't get to destroy the greatest country in the world, don't get to eradicate opportunity for me and mine that I thought I was born into....they don't get to do that and then go live comfortably and happily. That would be my end goal should things ever get unpleasant. Remove the ability of at least one of them to live comfortably. What comes of that for me and mine shall come of it.

Posted by: Hawkins1701 at February 28, 2015 06:57 AM (fCohL)

148 Don't need to read millions of pages of scholarship to reach that conclusion.

Posted by: Sharkman at February 28, 2015 11:45 AM (72D6h)

Read Mein Kampf.

The destruction of European Jewry began long before Wansee, and was in full swing by the time they had their meeting....which was more planning than anything else.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 28, 2015 06:57 AM (Zu3d9)

149 The government relies on two things and two things only: tax revenue and enforcement. If the revenue stream is affected, then the enforcers will no longer be paid, and then they will decide all they want to do is go home. But where is home? It's right next to the neighbor whom he was enforcing a revenue violation, and he won't enjoy living right next to the guy whose life he has ruined. Unless all government employees live in a secured compound, they will have to go home after work, and they will not be well received when they do.

Posted by: Daisy Cutter at February 28, 2015 06:58 AM (myGBe)

150 I am under no illusion that I will survive a civil war *when*, not *if* it starts. I'm getting older and I don't have much chops when it comes to fighting. I just hope I can make a decent account of myself and take at least one or two of the bastards with me. If enough people do that, we will win, because we outnumber them. And I am dead certain that civil war is inevitable. The Left must be destroyed, and we have reached the point where that can only happen with violence. It would have been good if we had executed thousands of Communists in the 50s, 60s, and 70s, but we didn't, because we were too civilized. We thought the main thread was external. They are not civilized in any sense that we understand, and will stop seeking power only when they are dead.

Posted by: rickl at February 28, 2015 06:58 AM (sdi6R)

151 Have a lake home in Canada which is cared for over the winters by an ex Pole who escaped during Russian rule. Just mention the USSR and he's ready to grab his rifle. Hates communists, the political Left in the U.S. and Canads.

Posted by: Hoping at February 28, 2015 06:59 AM (SNqwm)

152 Literally, "Having come, take (them)." In effect, From my cold dead hand.

Posted by: toby928(C) at February 28, 2015 07:00 AM (rwI+c)

153 "From the graves of patriot men and women spring living nations..."  -- Patrick Henry Pearse

Posted by: Guy who quotes Executed Irish Patriots/Terrorists at February 28, 2015 07:00 AM (4HYng)

154 The dollar is the world's reserve currency because the world believes that the USA is stable and built on the rule of law. If the whims of a prissy dilettante who does what he wants become the norm, then the big money starts to doubt the stability of the USA and the dollar.


You mean like downgrading our credit rating?


If the dollar loses its status as the world's reserve currency (which it is bidding fair to do, thanks to the Marxist Mahdi), the price we pay for oil will fluctuate even more wildly, whipsawed not only by supply and demand for oil, but supply and demand for dollars (i.e., the exchange rate) too. That, in turn, makes for yet more economic instability, and leads to further political instability as well.

Posted by: Jay Guevara[/i][/b][/s][/u] at February 28, 2015 07:00 AM (oKE6c)

155 There's another question: suppose it comes to blows, and we win. What do we do with/about the surviving leftists?

Posted by: Jay Guevara[/i][/b][/s][/u] at February 28, 2015 07:01 AM (oKE6c)

156 threat, not thread

Posted by: rickl at February 28, 2015 07:02 AM (sdi6R)

157 There is some serious "Sheehan" going on around here. All based off of missing a point. Enough, fuck.

Posted by: nip at February 28, 2015 07:02 AM (jI23+)

158 Knew a Russian ex-pat who came to the U.S. after 1991.  Said his fondest wish in life was to someday return to Russia ... at the controls of a B-52.

Funny guy.

Posted by: Kenny at February 28, 2015 07:02 AM (4HYng)

159

The government relies on two things and two things only: tax revenue and enforcement.

 

If the revenue stream is affected, then the enforcers will no longer be paid, and then they will decide all they want to do is go home.

 

But where is home? It's right next to the neighbor whom he was enforcing a revenue violation, and he won't enjoy living right next to the guy whose life he has ruined.

 

Unless all government employees live in a secured compound, they will have to go home after work, and they will not be well received when they do.

 

Posted by: Daisy Cutter at February 28, 2015 11:58 AM (myGBe)

 

That assumes the neighbors aren't carted off.  Carting off the opposition is one of the first things totalitarians do precisely because of that scenario.

Posted by: steveegg at February 28, 2015 07:03 AM (cL79m)

160 155 There's another question: suppose it comes to blows, and we win. What do we do with/about the surviving leftists?

Posted by: Jay Guevara at February 28, 2015 12:01 PM (oKE6c)


Ship em to Cuba. 

Posted by: Nip Sip at February 28, 2015 07:03 AM (0FSuD)

161 Sooner or later, the big money keeping the Federal Reserve ponzi going are going to start looking for alternatives Posted by: kbdabear ------------------------ They will make the pivot in Nov 2016. For who will cover their a$$ets.

Posted by: Roy at February 28, 2015 07:04 AM (fWLrt)

162 The Wannsee Conference, which was where the formal decision to exterminate the Jews was taken, occurred January 30, 1942. That conference may never have taken place had the victims been able to defend themselves a full 9 years earlier. Posted by: Sharkman at February 28, 2015 11:45 AM (72D6h) It was a conference to stream line the murder of jews. The Einsatzgruppen and their local associates had already murdered about a million Jews before Wannsee.

Posted by: Bruce J. at February 28, 2015 07:05 AM (iQIUe)

163 How are you going to go?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiQoq-wqZxg

Posted by: Anon Y. Mous at February 28, 2015 07:06 AM (IN7k+)

164 @144 "Once you're here, take them." I agree; furthermore so do the case and number. The besieged at Gonzales were not the upper crust, with a lot of historians and classics profs hanging about (although one supposes there was plenty of pipe-smoking, and leather patches on elbows). And yet someone in the ladies' sewing circle that sat up all night to stitch up a flag quick knew a quotation from Herodotus. That right there should give us goose-bumps.

Folk etymology, it may also be the root of the legendary Texan chuck wagon dinner call, "Come and get it." Pace Alberta Oil, the first chuck wagon was a Studebaker.

Posted by: [/i][/b]Stringer Davis at February 28, 2015 07:06 AM (xq1UY)

165 So the meaning was "You (singular) come (here), then (indicated in the verb tense) take (them)."
Posted by: Elizabeth Creegan at February 28, 2015 11:55 AM (R7Z09)


"since you came all this way, let's dance"?

"You came this far to talk?"

"Nuts!"

Posted by: Kindltot at February 28, 2015 07:07 AM (t//F+)

166 Read Mein Kampf.

The destruction of European Jewry began long before Wansee, and was in full swing by the time they had their meeting....which was more planning than anything else.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 28, 2015 11:57 AM (Zu3d9)


I did read Mein Kampf, and I don't remember anything about that. Recall it was written in a prison cell in 1923, ten years before its author came to power. There's no love for Jews in it, God knows, or for Marxists either (which the author pretty much equates to Jews), but I don't remember anything explicit in it about extermination.


Recall also that at one juncture (somewhere in the late 1930s, before the war started, IIRC) the Nazis were considering deporting German Jews to Madagascar, IIRC.

Posted by: Jay Guevara[/i][/b][/s][/u] at February 28, 2015 07:07 AM (oKE6c)

167 The Battle of Machias took place on June 12, 1775! The Foster Rubicon predates the Declaration of Independence by over a year. http://machiasprivateer.blogspot.com/2007/02/foster-rubicon-plaque.html After the battle, the Royal Navy no longer ruled the waves of Downeast Maine.

Posted by: MachiasPrivateer at February 28, 2015 07:08 AM (EMi53)

168 155 There's another question: suppose it comes to blows, and we win. What do we do with/about the surviving leftists? Posted by: Jay Guevara at February 28, 2015 12:01 PM (oKE6c) I gave my answer in #150. They want me dead; I want them dead.

Posted by: rickl at February 28, 2015 07:10 AM (sdi6R)

169 141 Would not be surprised if that event occurred under the guise of BO orders, to set the excuse for martial law into play. So simple to blame it on s random act of work place violence by Muslim patriots.

Posted by: Nuts at February 28, 2015 07:10 AM (SNqwm)

170 I other news a Smart Military Blog, The Ace of Spades, run by an ewok, described by his followers as The Prophet Ace,  today called for armed insurrection against the ATF and Obama.




The FBI and NSA are working on neutralizing the threat and all the participates in the organization, called "The Horde" are under sealed indictments.



Moar news at 11.

Posted by: MSNBC at February 28, 2015 07:10 AM (0FSuD)

171 "127 I'm not so sure that a few people on the left dying when they come to take our weapons would stop the whole thing rather quickly. Leftists aren't very brave. Government leftists are cowards that depend on our civility to live."

Unfortunate it won't be MSM talking heads or  activists from the Center for American Progress  that will be on the front lines. It will be local cops, who may or not be leftists and/or federal agents, all who are just following orders.. One thing they do not tolerate is the slightest resistance to a command.  Being slow in answering your door will result in it being kicked in. Or maybe tear gas. Then your house will be ransacked by armored uniformed govt security  agents searching for guns.  And your children seized and sent to Child Protective Services.. 

This is what we will be up against at some point. That is a lot different than facing down the latte sipping hippie liberal making this scenario possible.  They will be safe in their liberal enclaves, far from the unpleasantness. The only news they will hear about it will be some right wing extremist was killed while  defying first responders  executing a lawful search warrant

Posted by: George Orwell de Leon at February 28, 2015 07:10 AM (1BQGO)

172 See: Atlanta Fire Chief

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at February 28, 2015 07:12 AM (vPh3W)

173 "When some among them start losing everything, the paycheck doesn't look so attractive anymore."

===

This cannot be stressed too much.  They typical IUPA paycheck collector is not going to have much appetite for gunning down his neighbors.

History teaches that totalitarian regimes usually fall quite quickly, often when the security apparatus realizes that they despise the regime just as much as the people do.  Insty has written about this.

http://tinyurl.com/6oa78tw

Posted by: Dienekes at February 28, 2015 07:12 AM (4HYng)

174 Posted by: Sharkman at February 28, 2015 11:45 AM (72D6h) It was a conference to stream line the murder of jews. The Einsatzgruppen and their local associates had already murdered about a million Jews before Wannsee. Posted by: Bruce J. at February 28, 2015 12:05 PM (iQIUe) True. Yet my point remains: Had the Jews and every other victim of the Holocaust had the means to defend themselves in 1933 when Hitler took power, I don't believe that the Holocaust would have occurred. And this has nothing to do with what Hitler wrote in 1923 in Mein Kampf, whether the Jews and other victims were "tough", or whether Hitler was a shitty military commander. My point is based on human nature, the nature of dictatorships and the people who do the "dirty work" in those dictatorships, and the effect that an armed populace has on dictators. And my point is relevant to WD's post.

Posted by: Sharkman at February 28, 2015 07:15 AM (72D6h)

175 Our fourth annual Constitution Bee is tomorrow in Manhattan, Kansas. Yes, in the snow. Link in nic. The Bee gives $5,750 in scholarships to the top three winners. It can be used for any post secondary education, including tech schools. We teach the Constitution to high school students and the other attendees. We are not theater majors, but we fund this with our sweat equity and put on a good show. We use a lot of Americana.

Posted by: NaCly Dog at February 28, 2015 07:19 AM (u82oZ)

176 Nice post, WeirdDave, and some nice comments, too. Words are easy to spew, especially on a keyboard. It's much different to actually put yourself mentally in a position of backing them up, and realizing the probable outcomes. One night a few years ago, over several beers, Ok, many many beers, friends and I gamed out potential scenarios, and what it would mean to us. It's not much fun. So sobering in fact that it was good beer wasted.

Posted by: OneEyedJack at February 28, 2015 07:19 AM (XmOA9)

177 In April, 1775, this nation was founded by people who hid their ammunition from tyrants determined to confiscate it. (ball and powder, ironically)   Fitting symmetry should it end that way.

Posted by: Dienekes at February 28, 2015 07:20 AM (4HYng)

178 177 In April, 1775, this nation was founded by people who hid their ammunition from tyrants determined to confiscate it. (ball and powder, ironically) Fitting symmetry should it end that way.

Posted by: Dienekes at February 28, 2015 12:20 PM (4HYng)




End, or be reborn.

Posted by: Jay Guevara[/i][/b][/s][/u] at February 28, 2015 07:22 AM (oKE6c)

179 The point is about the right to bear arms. Jews just show this right is a matter of life and death. As for the finl solution read Hitlers Willing Executioners. Hitler didn't invent jew hatred, he manipulated it. There were literally thousands of small camps. Run in small towns. By small town folk. I don't know if armed jews would have been able to stop thier execution. I like to think they would have, at least in some instances. But it is better to fight.

Posted by: ThunderB, Shapeshifter at February 28, 2015 07:22 AM (Sh0n/)

180 Re 165 Hence why the translator *must* be a traitor; you can either translate "Molon labe" as "Come and take them" (the spirit of the Greek and the gist of the Greek accurately represented in English) or "Come, take" (which is equally short but sounds too much like an invitation rather than a challenge) or "Having come, take" (still pithy, and as close as we can come to a literal translation, but not good English) or "You yourself come over here and take them" (which translates the gist and conveys the personal challenge, but loses the pithiness.) The Greek means "(You yourself) come (then) take (them)" where the parentheses indicate words which don't need to be explicit in the Greek but in English.

Posted by: Elizabeth Creegan at February 28, 2015 07:23 AM (R7Z09)

181 177.  You don't seem to appreciate that people today have a lot more to lose than did a a Concord farmer, a Lexington tavern keeper or a Boston silversmith in 1775.

Posted by: Reieu at February 28, 2015 07:25 AM (4HYng)

182 If conservatives would just start cheating on their taxes en masse, the government would probably collapse in a matter of months.  That's a lot less violent than trying to start an armed rebellion.

Posted by: Kal at February 28, 2015 07:25 AM (+pyjd)

183 @181 You're joking, right?

Posted by: [/i][/b]Stringer Davis at February 28, 2015 07:26 AM (xq1UY)

184 171: "This is what we will be up against at
some point. That is a lot different than facing down the latte sipping
hippie liberal making this scenario possible. They will be safe in their liberal enclaves, far from the unpleasantness. The only news they will hear about it will be some right wing extremist was killed while defying first responders executing a lawful search warrant."

Posted by: George Orwell de Leon at February 28, 2015 12:10 PM (1BQGO)


In a real revolution, you'll see the government act to arrest or kill anyone on the right seen as a leader or potential leader. The question is, will the right do the same to leftists. If so, you'll see citizens, who don't have the ability to stand up to cops or military personnel, eventually find themselves killing the prominent local leftists: media types, local government leaders, teachers, professors, clergy, union leaders, that loudmouth down the block who's always trying to tell everybody how to live their lives...

This is what I fear. Not cops barging in to swipe my daddy's old, shot out .38, but people on each side engaging in assassination, sabotage and acts of terrorism, leading up to pogroms and purges. It is the only way the right can win, and fully to be expected of the left.

I don't know everything about revolutions, but I know things will get out of hand, and quickly. The results will be horrible.

Posted by: Josef K. at February 28, 2015 07:28 AM (RcpcZ)

185 This is why I'm an Project Appleseed volunteer. We're "bailing the sinking ship" of the USA. Yes I teach people the basics of marksmanship, but as any long time Appleseeder will tell you that's the secondary mission. The primary mission is to get Americans to take an active part in America and her heritage. We just use marksmanship as the way to get people to participate. By participating in our unique American Heritage it opens the door for people to be more active in orther parts of being an American, like voting, jury duty, engaging people in discussions of the issues truly affecting us as a people. Maybe its a crazy idea and we're hopeless, but I'm not ready to hunker down and give up on the USA yet. Should I ever get to the point of needing to utter the words "Molon labe!" I've failed in my Appleseed mission and I expect that i may now have to die for my principles. I pray to God, we can turn this ship around before that happens.

Posted by: Janir at February 28, 2015 07:28 AM (rL0/u)

186 "If conservatives would just start cheating on their taxes en masse, the government would probably collapse in a matter of months." The IRS has this down to a science. They enforce selectively. They pick off a few salient cases, prosecute severely (and publicly) and then the rest of us fall in line. The exact same tactic could be used for illegal immigrants, but instead we hear "you can't deport 11 million".

Posted by: navybrat at February 28, 2015 07:29 AM (JgC5a)

187 True. Yet my point remains: Had the Jews and every other victim of the Holocaust had the means to defend themselves in 1933 when Hitler took power, I don't believe that the Holocaust would have occurred. And this has nothing to do with what Hitler wrote in 1923 in Mein Kampf, whether the Jews and other victims were "tough", or whether Hitler was a shitty military commander. Posted by: Sharkman at February 28, 2015 12:15 PM (72D6h) Most of the victims were very poor and lived in isolated villages. They did not have the ability to resist even with weapons. There was little ability to communicate.

Posted by: Bruce J. at February 28, 2015 07:33 AM (iQIUe)

188 What is sad is there are so many folks who will pledge to fight to the death if brownshirts come to seize therm or even just to seize their munitions. But suggest that producers should maybe decide on a few key points and be willing to go on strike for a week or three to get them and 99% have a list of reasons why they could not possibly do such a thing and interrupt their cash flow and even the most ardently conservative retirees quickly screech "I earned my SS don't you dare imperil it" rather than saying "bring it on, I can live on savings, stored food, and help from my offspring for a few weeks and we have got to knock some sense into the bureaucrats"

Posted by: PaleRider at February 28, 2015 07:34 AM (7w/kf)

189 184 In a real revolution, you'll see the government act to arrest or kill anyone on the right seen as a leader or potential leader. The question is, will the right do the same to leftists. If so, you'll see citizens, who don't have the ability to stand up to cops or military personnel, eventually find themselves killing the prominent local leftists: media types, local government leaders, teachers, professors, clergy, union leaders, that loudmouth down the block who's always trying to tell everybody how to live their lives...This is what I fear. Not cops barging in to swipe my daddy's old, shot out .38, but people on each side engaging in assassination, sabotage and acts of terrorism, leading up to pogroms and purges. It is the only way the right can win, and fully to be expected of the left. I don't know everything about revolutions, but I know things will get out of hand, and quickly. The results will be horrible. Posted by: Josef K. at February 28, 2015 12:28 PM (RcpcZ) You just described a civil war. The American Civil War, with standing armies duking it out on a battlefield, was an outlier and by no means typical. A real civil war involves neighbors killing neighbors. That's how every other country in the world understands the term. And that's what I see coming here. The red state/blue state maps are illusory. The Leftist enemy is in every community in the nation, and they're at least 50% of the population where I live.

Posted by: rickl at February 28, 2015 07:36 AM (sdi6R)

190 189 The Leftist enemy is in every community in the nation, and they're at least 50% of the population where I live.

Posted by: rickl at February 28, 2015 12:36 PM (sdi6R) 


Buy moar ammo.

Posted by: Josef K. at February 28, 2015 07:39 AM (RcpcZ)

191 A man's rights rest in three boxes: the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box. Lets try the first two before we move onto the third.

Posted by: Blueprop at February 28, 2015 07:40 AM (JPO7t)

192 The IRS has this down to a science. They enforce selectively. They pick off a few salient cases, prosecute severely (and publicly) and then the rest of us fall in line.

The exact same tactic could be used for illegal immigrants, but instead we hear "you can't deport 11 million". Posted by: navybrat

People are way more scared of the IRS then they should be.  Not only do most get away with it, unless you're part of some criminal enterprise, it's fines akin to a speeding ticket.

Posted by: Kal at February 28, 2015 07:42 AM (13G+x)

193 The IRS assumes that we conservatives are all criminals. Hello.

Posted by: navybrat at February 28, 2015 07:51 AM (JgC5a)

194 [THIS THREAD HAS BEEN CLOSED]

Posted by: Tom Wheeler at February 28, 2015 07:53 AM (SOf+k)

195 The Battle of Athens didn't have any casualties. Depends how hard we bring it.

Posted by: S at February 28, 2015 07:54 AM (NhLdG)

196 [THIS THREAD HAS BEEN CLOSED]
 
Posted by: Tom Wheeler at February 28, 2015 12:53 PM (SOf+k)

Says you.

Posted by: right wing whippersnapper at February 28, 2015 07:54 AM (ThxKk)

197 Just think, it those businessmen that captured Caesar and had him in prison had just killed him like Allente, how much better Venezuela would be today.


No balls.

Posted by: Nip Sip at February 28, 2015 07:54 AM (0FSuD)

198 The sentiment is entirely mutual.

Posted by: navybrat at February 28, 2015 07:54 AM (JgC5a)

199 Just remember, the most wicked opponent we face isn't going to be any of the Federal Alphabet Agencies. (but they're plenty bad enough) Or mortal enemy is the Media. "News Reader" should become a high-risk occupation, immediately upon the commencement of hostilities. Jim Sunk New Dawn Galveston, TX

Posted by: Jim at February 28, 2015 07:55 AM (RzZOc)

200 199 "News Reader" should become a high-risk occupation, immediately upon the commencement of hostilities. Jim Sunk New Dawn Galveston, TX Posted by: Jim at February 28, 2015 12:55 PM (RzZOc) This short story by Matt Bracken always warms the cockles of my heart: https://tinyurl.com/mzohe6b

Posted by: rickl at February 28, 2015 08:02 AM (sdi6R)

201 "YOU ARE GOING TO DIE."

Dave a newsflash for you? They want us dead.

Look at Obama's buddy Bill talking about reeducation camps. Commies will be commies.


Posted by: gdonovan at February 28, 2015 08:05 AM (Ipxoj)

202 If I remember correctly, VC primary chore was to attack low level community organizers and avoid contact with mainline security forces. Theory was control of local communities by terror undermined indigenous security forces indirectly by removing taxes and information flow from the population. Incredibly violent. Last resort. Pray it does not come to this.

Posted by: Man from Wazzustan at February 28, 2015 08:08 AM (uPxUo)

203

 

kind of ignores the real possibility that the troops sent to disarm fellow americans or even their neighbors would refuse to do so

Posted by: kj at February 28, 2015 08:12 AM (lKyWE)

204 202 Theory was control of local communities by terror undermined indigenous security forces indirectly by removing taxes and information flow from the population. Posted by: Man from Wazzustan at February 28, 2015 01:08 PM (uPxUo) As the character O'Brien said in Orwell's "1984": "The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. " So, by extension, "The object of terror is terror."

Posted by: rickl at February 28, 2015 08:22 AM (sdi6R)

205 If you have not already had the discussion with your family, you are a piker.

It goes like this............under these conditions I will kiss you and the kids goodbye.  I will take my gobag and leave everything I own and everyone I love to go fight for what is left of liberty and freedom in this country.  This may happen in a matter of minutes.  There will be no discussion then.  The discussion is being had now.

If you own guns and have not had this discussion, you are a collector.  Like someone who collects beanie babies or pottery.  If you own guns and have talked with your family about why you own guns, then you are a patriot in waiting.

Posted by: Big Al at February 28, 2015 08:48 AM (LQUXn)

206 We've donated time.  We've walked and phone banked and voted to candidates and parties who claimed to be on our side. We've donated money.  We've stood up and spoke out.

We've been laughed at, lied to, scorned and conned...even by the people who claim to represent us.

What net?

Posted by: Richard McEnroe at February 28, 2015 08:50 AM (XO6WW)

207 181 177  Like what? Our cell phones, our affordable internet?  We're already in danger of losing our health, our livelihoods and the food on our plates.  The Founders could not have lost more.  If we continue we are in danger of the State turning our own children against us, Mao's dream, and something the Founders could never have imagined.

Posted by: Richard McEnroe at February 28, 2015 08:57 AM (XO6WW)

208 #191  We've BEEN trying the first two.  Howz Mitch McConnell working out for you? Marco Rubio?  Johns McCain and Boehner?

Posted by: Richard McEnroe at February 28, 2015 08:59 AM (XO6WW)

209 Blueprop, There are actually four boxes of democracy, The Soap box, the ballot box, the jury box ,and that other one. And on a national level, three haven't worked, as Richard McEnroe has pointed out. Seems like it's just becoming a nervous waiting game, huh?

Posted by: Thread Killer at February 28, 2015 08:59 AM (XmOA9)

210 If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.

Posted by: Samuel Adams at February 28, 2015 09:19 AM (WvS3w)

211 208 #191 We've BEEN trying the first two. Howz Mitch McConnell working out for you? Marco Rubio? Johns McCain and Boehner?

I agree. The whole point of this thread is to contemplate how horrible the alternative would be. We've had some success. We have Cruz, Lee, Gohmert, Sessions, some others in place. If we send more of this type, the point will come when a McConnell or Boehner won't be elected to leadership. Pray that point it comes before revolution.

Posted by: Weirddave at February 28, 2015 09:23 AM (WvS3w)

212 The numbers are on our side. Larry Correia mentioned this in his brilliant Opinion on Gun Control column a few years back: http://monsterhunternation.com/2012/12/20/an-opinion-on-gun-control/ If there are an estimated 80 million gun owners in this country and even just 10% of them decided to fight an armed resistance, that's 800,000 instant American freedom fighters (or insurgents, to use the MSM's terms). To put that in perspective there are an estimated 700,000 police officers in this country. And how many of those police officers and military members would take our side in a fight?

Posted by: Hudson21 at February 28, 2015 09:26 AM (tt+yC)

213 Long before they come to your house your driver's license and car registration will be suspended and unable to drive without being stopped. Are you going to storm the DMV, or lose your license? You will have penalties assessed by the IRS and your bank accounts will be seized, you will be unable to use your credit cards. Your internet service will be cut off. Your health insurance will be cancelled. Etc etc This is, by the way, very parallel to the Jews of Europe. Most today think that Jews were all fine until one day the SS took them away. No, the typical pattern was first to be made a 2nd class citizen for years. Have your work taken away, be ineligible for government service or services. Your local storekeepers wouldn't see to you. You had to wear a badge of self humiliation. Long before they took most to the camps the victims had already been subjugated by years of abuse by the State and their all too willing neighbors. We have given so many levers of coercion to a centralized Leviathan that I think they would hardly have to break your doors down to ruin your life by degrees and starve you out. I fervently hope we may avert the burning times. But I fear that unless we turn this ship around via the ballot box (Convention of the States?) we will more likely enter into quiet, self-subjugation because the will to resist will not survive a thousand bureaucratic cuts. Death camps in the US? I doubt it. Death of liberty? Anyone's call.

Posted by: NYC Parent at February 28, 2015 09:33 AM (5PvRS)

214 I would love an Article V convention but not now.
Posted by: yankeefifth at February 28, 2015 11:22 AM (gsfK5)
************************

To the folks who call for an Article V convention, I would like first to see who you have in mind to represent you/us. Can you come up with 50 names to whom you would trust this Nation's future? Lots of stars and comets populating the political sphere today, but I would trust precious few of them with having a vision that would endure for the next 200 years.

Posted by: LCMS Rulz! at February 28, 2015 09:45 AM (TqyFL)

215 If you have not already had the discussion with your family, you are a piker.

It goes like this............under these conditions I will kiss you and the kids goodbye. I will take my gobag and leave everything I own and everyone I love to go fight for what is left of liberty and freedom in this country. This may happen in a matter of minutes. There will be no discussion then. The discussion is being had now.


And this will work great if the British move on Concord. In a scenario like we're discussing here, where are you going to go?

Posted by: Weirddave at February 28, 2015 09:53 AM (WvS3w)

216 "YOU ARE GOING TO DIE."
Dave a newsflash for you? They want us dead.

Posted by: gdonovan at February 28, 2015 01:05 PM (Ipxoj)
*****************

But they don't want to be dead in the process. When met with resistance, they generally run to a safe have and bitch a lot.

Posted by: LCMS Rulz! at February 28, 2015 09:55 AM (TqyFL)

217 Back before the Feinstein bill was public I had a similar conversation on confiscation with a friend that commanded an elite Army unit. He commented about how many of his guys privately owned ARs and said he had no idea whose side they would be on.

Posted by: Wensteph at February 28, 2015 10:00 AM (7lv4h)

218 We are all gonna die it's just a mater of timing and style.

Posted by: Steve Adams at February 28, 2015 10:10 AM (JHMYd)

219 attention gun nuts. They will not come for your guns they will ask you to turn them in. those who don't will be criminals. and like child porn they will use stings and normal police operations such offering rewards to turn people in. the die hard gun nuts will say I will hide my gun where they will never find it! which is fine because the gun will be of little threat. bend over and kiss your gun good bye.

Posted by: captain*arizona at February 28, 2015 10:11 AM (DycgJ)

220 Flintlock arms belong only in the hands of soldiers on the field of battle.

My soldiers.

Posted by: Barack the Mad, 1772 at February 28, 2015 10:12 AM (SOf+k)

221 The statists don't care about the damage to the Constitution and the written law. 
They will eventually attack us, probably under a false flag action.  The headlines will say something like "white guy plumber who works 65 hours a week fixing toilets is actually a felon that is conspiring to overthrow the Federal Government was killed yesterday in a raid of patriot warrior police".

When the police ignore the laws they are sworn to uphold, and do it with more regularity, the time is near.  Flashbanging babies in their cribs and then absolving any responsibility by the state is just one example.  Someone should have been jailed for what happened.  Instead nobody is responsible.

The first few raids will be a slaughter of citizens. 

We will strike back by killing their families instead of trying to take them on directly.

Eventually, they will realize why their families are being killed and abandon the state raiding forces.  Then the statists will become desperate and the game will really be on.

Just a couple of hundred dead families should be enough for them to see the light.

Me?  I'm probably dead anyway.  Hang on, we are in for a bumpy ride.

Posted by: George Mason at February 28, 2015 10:13 AM (/WaV2)

222 Strategy and Tactics to Win and Survive!

When the SWAT team is kicking in your door - IT IS NOT THE TIME TO FIGHT (If you are home with your family) [If it is a set up ambush - that is another story]

GUERILLA WARFARE

Posted by: KUETSA at February 28, 2015 10:16 AM (0111r)

223 If you are fighting the enforcers of unconstitutional laws - your primary targets must always be the makers of those laws!

Posted by: KUETSA at February 28, 2015 10:20 AM (0111r)

224 As far as retribution is concerned, it should be directed at those issuing the orders, not those on the front line.

In fact, open civil war is a bad idea.

Too bad our security community has refused to do it's sworn duty over the last 5 years.

Posted by: Grad School Fool at February 28, 2015 10:53 AM (A9KzJ)

225 Which side do you belong to? The US Constitution & Bill of Rights are trampled. But do not be scared of the other side though they have MRAPs, tactical vests, M-4s, flash-bangs, etc.

Posted by: Mario V. Albano at February 28, 2015 11:30 AM (zqQMo)

226 The country is already dead. Keep score ......

Posted by: Trump at February 28, 2015 11:57 AM (mctSY)

227 I have a very apropos comment but I don't need my name on yet another FBI watchlist. 

Posted by: Tonic Dog at February 28, 2015 12:56 PM (X/+QT)

228 Dave's is but one opinion. There are others.

Posted by: Bob Owens at February 28, 2015 03:11 PM (XqknC)

229 If you want a first-hand account of how it went under the Third Reich, read "I WILL BEAR WITNESS: A Diary of the Nazi Years," by a Jewish professor, Victor Klemperer.

He kept a secret diary in Dresden, Germany, from 1933 to 1945: recording the inch-by-inch stripping of his rights, his car, his job, his home, his cat (Jews were forbidden to own pets), his food ... year by year, it got worse. Klemperer was determined to "bear witness," to record how it is that tyranny breaks you down piece by piece.

Chilling reading. Each new edict was incremental; the people groaned, and most adjusted to the fresh hell. It was only incrementally worse. . . .

The only ones who survived were the "paranoid" ones who saw which way the wind was blowing and got the hell out in the early 1930s. Of course, Hitler banned exit visas for Jews in 1938.

The stages of persecution were:
Identification.
Isolation.
Concentration.
Annihilation.

This is a brilliant paper on the process: http://preview.tinyurl.com/p8x7yve

Posted by: beverly at February 28, 2015 03:37 PM (CZ19u)

230

have a very apropos comment but I don't need my name on yet another FBI watchlist.

 

Posted by: Tonic Dog at February 28, 2015 05:56 PM (X/+QT)

 

I would have put on the FBI sock to respond, but I'll stick with my regular nom-de-blog to drive home the point.

 

TOO LATE!

Posted by: steveegg at February 28, 2015 04:59 PM (cL79m)

231 I worry about this, but then I imagine the phone call where the President tries to convince the Louisiana State Police, the Swamp Dog Parish Sheriff's Department, and the Fer-de-Lance City Police to come and take my guns. 

Posted by: hurricane567 at February 28, 2015 06:55 PM (XbuHM)

232 112 Google "operation wetback"

Posted by: Feral Cat Feeding Mumble Bum at March 01, 2015 03:34 AM (aXCDY)

233 155 There's another question: suppose it comes to blows, and we win. What do we do with/about We exile them to Mother Russia, or kill them. Their choice. Along with most if not all those living on the east and west coasts. They cannot say they didn't have a choice.

Posted by: Jimmygee at March 01, 2015 07:01 AM (gM/n2)

234 I think the progs plan to use the inner city denizens as their cannon fodder.  No need to send popo into the suburbs to confiscate boomsticks.  The gov will just say "Your EBT cards stopped working?  I know where there's plenty of free shit for the taking."

Posted by: butch at March 01, 2015 01:06 PM (HLx1C)

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