March 29, 2011

DOOM! is a choice, not a destiny
— Monty

The optimists will say that there is no real debt problem at the federal and state level, that everything will work out fine. The public-sector pension and healthcare bomb is just a scare-tactic on the part of Republicans to score political points, they say. The federal government cannot go out of business, they say; neither can the states. Therefore, you cannot treat sovereign risk the same way you do that of private companies. It's virtually a certainty that all public debts will be repaid.

But then there are the dissenters (like me) who point out that sovereign states can and do go out of business all the time. Just read a history book. And this quite often occurs not because of invasion or plague, but due to internal factors like debt, debasement of the currency, and a failure of the economy to provide for the citizenry.

As the monk Cadfael often says in Ellis Peters' wonderful books, "Under the certainty of Heaven, nothing is certain".

The question that faces us as a nation now, really, is one of risk. Democrats (and even some Republicans) seem to think that we live in a "low to moderate risk" financial environment; the Tea Partiers, libertarians, many GOP freshmen, and me all think that we are living in a "moderate to high risk" environment. Our argument with each other is based less on dollars and cents than it is on questions of sustainability, viability, and funding -- particularly funding of our colossal welfare-state.

Many of us feel that the optimists are engaging in magical thinking -- that because we are the wealthiest and most powerful nation in the world, that this somehow insulates us from the more mundane realities that every other nation must deal with. Yet we only have to look to the cousins in England to find the answer to that fallacy: they were the mightiest empire the world had ever seen as recently as the 1880's. Now they are just another pauperized nation with an unsustainable welfare-state, a restive population, and no clear way forward out of the jam they find themselves in. How astonished a British subject of 1800 would have been to visit his country only two centuries later!

America may yet have its best days before it...if we act now to prevent this fiscal disaster from ruining us, and fracturing us into endlessly-arguing and bitter camps. E Pluribus Unum requires work and dedication; it won't just happen all by itself. A house divided against itself cannot stand, and right now we have two groups of people with very diametrically-opposed visions of what America is, and what it will be in the years ahead.

Nothing lasts forever -- not men, not institutions, not buildings or monuments. Even stones wear away in time. Nothing is forever. We would do well as a nation to remember that.
(Some NSFW language in this video.)

Posted by: Monty at 05:33 AM | Comments (260)
Post contains 496 words, total size 3 kb.

1 hmmmmmmmmm

Posted by: elspeth at March 29, 2011 05:38 AM (0AkWH)

2 Alas, regardless of their doom, the little victims play! No sense have they of ills to come, nor care beyond today.

Posted by: Thomas Gray at March 29, 2011 05:38 AM (tf9Ne)

3 Jesus and John Browning are my rocks in hard times.

Posted by: toby928™ at March 29, 2011 05:39 AM (GTbGH)

4 Nothing lasts forever -- not men, not institutions, not buildings or monuments. Even stones wear away in time. Nothing is forever. We would do well as a nation to remember that.

All we are is dust in the wind, dude.

Posted by: Ted Logan at March 29, 2011 05:41 AM (9hSKh)

5 Finally, now my day can start now that Monty's served up a proper cup o' DOOM!

This one was downright sunny, dangling the possibility of DOOM averted and all. 

Posted by: VA Gator at March 29, 2011 05:41 AM (SGgrv)

6 It is said an Eastern monarch once charged his wise men to invent him a sentence, to be ever in view, and which should be true and appropriate in all times and situations. They presented him the words: "And this, too, shall pass away." How much it expresses! How chastening in the hour of pride! How consoling in the depths of affliction!

Posted by: A. Lincoln at March 29, 2011 05:43 AM (GTbGH)

7

The OMB has reported that for FY2011, revenues wonÂ’t cover mandatory outlays, much less discretionary spending. If we taxed all income over $1 million at 100%, we would still have to cut about $400+ billion to zero the deficit (and still do nothing to help the debt).

Denial isnÂ’t a river in Egypt.

Posted by: Islamic Rage Boy at March 29, 2011 05:43 AM (tvs2p)

8 FINALLY! I WAS WAITING FOR MY DAILY DOSE OF DOOM!

Posted by: phoenixgirl at March 29, 2011 05:44 AM (eOXTH)

9 Yeey.  For the 46th time I was the 1,000,000 visitor to a web sight. Doom.  Hah.  It can't be cuz I win all the time./

Posted by: Meddler at March 29, 2011 05:45 AM (XDmNw)

10 For there is no remembrance of the wise more than of the fool for ever; seeing that which now is in the days to come shall all be forgotten. And how dies the wise man? as the fool. (Ecclesiastes 2:16)

Posted by: Monty at March 29, 2011 05:45 AM (FC+dS)

11 E Pluribus Unum stands in direct contravention to what our progressive betters have in store for us. Divide and conquer is what they are doing, and still succeeding at. As Buck Turgidson would say, "when the spaghetti hits the fan," it's gonna get ugly my friends.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at March 29, 2011 05:47 AM (wLpo0)

12 sight = site. Shit....more coffee.

Posted by: Meddler at March 29, 2011 05:47 AM (XDmNw)

13 Then he said, ‘This is what IÂ’ll do. I will tear down my barns and build bigger ones, and there I will store all my grain and my goods.  And IÂ’ll say to myself, “You have plenty of good things laid up for many years. Take life easy; eat, drink and be merry."

Posted by: a certain rich man at March 29, 2011 05:49 AM (GTbGH)

14 I've given up on trying to talk to other people. The ones I know just come back with moronic arguments that my 6th grader would laugh at.

The top headline on the local rag this morning says that the City of Cleveland wants to raise water rates by up to 82 percent in the city and up to 50 percent in the suburbs. This when we live by, you know, an enormous source of water. I'm so thankful that my small suburb has its own water and power plants. 'Cause Cleveland is pushing hard to become Detroit.

Posted by: Barb the Evil Genius at March 29, 2011 05:50 AM (MyByM)

15 So, it turns out I'm not the only one in my family considering what it would take to get the family farm working again.  Unfortunately, I was unaware of the state of disrepair into which it had fallen.

I talked to my dad about it this weekend, and here's basically what he said:

"Well, we'd have to redo the plumbing, and we think we'd need to run a new line out to the street.  Some of the fences need repairing, and the wiring needs to be updated.  Then the floors, walls, and roof need to be rebuilt..."

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at March 29, 2011 05:51 AM (8y9MW)

16 Nothing lasts forever -- not men, not institutions, not buildings or monuments.

I'm doing my very best to add capitalism to the dustbin of history!

Posted by: Barack "You Are Boned" Obama at March 29, 2011 05:52 AM (vbh31)

17 "Well, we'd have to redo the plumbing, and we think we'd need to run a new line out to the street.  Some of the fences need repairing, and the wiring needs to be updated.  Then the floors, walls, and roof need to be rebuilt..."

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at March 29, 2011 10:51 AM (8y9MW)

Raze it and put up a double wide. ;o)

Posted by: Tami at March 29, 2011 05:52 AM (VuLos)

18 >>Nothing lasts forever Herpes lasts forever. And ugly. Herpes and ugly last forever.

Posted by: JackStraw at March 29, 2011 05:53 AM (TMB3S)

19 'Cause Cleveland is pushing hard to become Detroit.

And what's wrong with that? We call that "social justice" in my administration.

Posted by: Mayor Frank Jackson at March 29, 2011 05:54 AM (vbh31)

20 Posted by: Barb the Evil Genius at March 29, 2011 10:50 AM (MyByM)

It doesn't help Conservative arguments about water usage that there are people who do, so obviously, waste water.  Like the idiots who own the campus where my client does business- who are watering their lawns while it's raining.

I hate the stupid "Water: Nothing Can Replace It" billboards I see on the highway (of course, TX, NM, and AZ really do need to conserve water- but not because the earth is going to run out next Tuesday or anything), but any time I try to have an intelligent conversation about why worrying about water (for the rest of the country, and even parts of TX) is silly, I keep having to stop stupid lines of argument about people like that: Or who water when its freezing outside, or whatever.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at March 29, 2011 05:54 AM (8y9MW)

21 Sometimes, a building gets so decrepit the best you can do is raze it, and build anew.

I suspect we may be to that point.

Posted by: AoSHQ's worst commenter, DarkLord© at March 29, 2011 05:54 AM (GBXon)

22 Join us at Borders this Saturday from 12pm - 2pm. Famous children's author Monty will be there for a reading and to sign his new book, The Boy Who Died Cold and Hungry: An American Tale.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at March 29, 2011 05:55 AM (+61wI)

23 Vital numbers:
- the CBO said the fiscal 2011 deficit will hit $1.48 trillion or $1480 billion
- extending the Bush tax cuts will cost roughly $3.312 trillion over 10 years
- extending the upper-income provisions to cost $679.6 billion over 10 years

$1480 - $68 = $1412 billion deficit if upper-income provisions not extended
$1480 - $331 =
$1149 billion deficit if  all income provisions not extended
(they're probably higher because they will be lower the first few years)

Posted by: Islamic Rage Boy at March 29, 2011 05:55 AM (tvs2p)

24 The Earf is down to it's last 100 gallons of water!!1!1!

Posted by: AlGore at March 29, 2011 05:56 AM (vbh31)

25 Posted by: Tami at March 29, 2011 10:52 AM (VuLos)

That's been discussed, actually.

My parents have somewhat seriously considered getting an RV and setting up there to live in while the farmhouse is rebuilt.

In West Texas farmland, a double-wide isn't the best permanent structure.  It would do fine for a while, but wind storms, sand storms, tornadoes, and thunderstorms all conspire to make them less than ideal.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at March 29, 2011 05:56 AM (8y9MW)

26 The Left built a social security system that premised on population growth maintaining a larger working pool paying benefits to the smaller retired class, and then engaged in Zero Population Growth hysteria and abortion on demand.

The Left premises their social spending on taxing producers to pay for non-producers, making the role of non-producer more attractive and the role of producer less so.

The Left fucks its great plans all by itself.

Posted by: nickless at March 29, 2011 05:57 AM (MMC8r)

27 That video clip made me smile. Now thats pragmatism.

Posted by: maddogg at March 29, 2011 05:57 AM (OlN4e)

28 I've decided to invest most of my money into beenie babies. They will become our new currency when the dollar collapses.

Posted by: Ben at March 29, 2011 05:58 AM (wuv1c)

29 A quick question for the "optimists" (fantasists, really) who think this can last forever - don't you think that's precisely how felt the average Roman citizen around, oh, say 350 A.D.?

And as a follow-up, how did that work out for they and their children, eh?

But yeah, the British example is a good one.  France as well.  And why is it again that most of "Latin America" actually speaks a dialect of Portuguese or Spanish?  How are they doing these days?

Posted by: DocJ at March 29, 2011 05:58 AM (dt6br)

30 Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at March 29, 2011 10:51 AM (8y9MW)

or, you could knock it down and put in a pre fab house.

Posted by: curious at March 29, 2011 05:58 AM (k1rwm)

31 Many thanks, sir.  I was beginning to worry that there wouldn't be any DOOM today.

Posted by: KinleyArdal at March 29, 2011 05:58 AM (WvFvd)

32 29 I've decided to invest most of my money into beenie babies. They will become our new currency when the dollar collapses.

No, no.  Invest in gold! 

Posted by: G. Gordon Liddy at March 29, 2011 05:59 AM (9hSKh)

33 Monty's Doom and Gloom DOES last forever ! And a day.

Posted by: wildwood at March 29, 2011 05:59 AM (VSWPU)

34

We did it once, we can do it again.

Posted by: The Republic of Texas at March 29, 2011 06:00 AM (dYKl3)

35 Damn, do I miss Deadwood. 

Posted by: Damn at March 29, 2011 06:00 AM (QQn2V)

36 No cat?  Someone is gonna get a beating, and it ain't gonna be deadwood cat.

Posted by: Fritz at March 29, 2011 06:00 AM (GwPRU)

37 Raze it and put up a double wide. ;o)

No reason to raze the old farmhouse just put the double-wide next to it. The house will make a great chicken coop.

Posted by: Buzzsaw at March 29, 2011 06:00 AM (tf9Ne)

38

There is a "clear way forward" if you look at history instead of PC crapthink.  In this country we can produce lots more oil than we do.  Solves a few problems right away for maybe a hundred years while we get the bugs worked out of batteries.  Or replace them with something better.

And now is the time.  Takes years to get the production up and demand is spiking globallly. 

There is a huge laundry list of economy boosters to which Ds are morally opposed.  "Cheap energy bad!"  "Corporate tax good (unless you're an avid Donk supporter)!"  "Volumes of confusing regulations good!"  

Don't you love hearing about "unregulated" industries the Dems talk about all the time?  Yeah, no such animal in this country.  Hasn't been for a century or so.   Usually dozens of agencies and departments specialize in regulating your business.  Not to mention other sovereigns.

I was in the back of a Walmart picking up something huge in a box and while waiting counted 40, 4-0, licenses just to allow them to carry on the various things which went on in Walmart.  That's the smallest tip of the iceberg regulation-wise.        

Posted by: Beagle at March 29, 2011 06:01 AM (sOtz/)

39 because we are the wealthiest and most powerful nation in the world, that this somehow insulates us from the more mundane realities that every other nation must deal with.

I'm not certain that this is true anymore. Basically we're living inside a vast illusion.

As my accountant father used to say of people who liked to display their "wealth" by driving fancy cars and living in big homes ...

Remember, you're only seeing the assets side of the ledger. People aren't as eager to show you the liability side. Don't assume the guy with the Lexus is wealthier than you. He may have greater income, but if he's swimming in debt, then you're better off than he is.

Us morons are staring at the liability side of the balance sheet and freaking out. Not only is our big national income not enough to sustain our spending -- thanks to the productivity sucking power of President Motown's bullshit healthcare mandates, drilling bans, and onerous EPA regulations -- our earning power is actually declining.

 The average idiot sees none of this. They can still "afford" fun toys like iPads and smart phones so they think that all this "wealth" is real. They're in for a rude awakening.

My father, by the way, lives in a trailer and is worth a hell of a lot of money.

Wealth isn't built by buying crap. It's built by producing something of value, being frugal, and investing wisely.

Posted by: Warden at March 29, 2011 06:01 AM (gYx8r)

40 It doesn't help Conservative arguments about water usage that there are people who do, so obviously, waste water.

Yes, there are people here who waste water. However, this doesn't seem to be why the city is raising rates: "To address falling revenues and declining consumption, the water department is proposing to make the bulk of the increase a fixed fee charged to all customers regardless of how much water they use." Water use is going DOWN but prices are going UP. Not to mention Ohio, and Cleveland, are bleeding jobs and citizens already.

Posted by: Barb the Evil Genius at March 29, 2011 06:03 AM (MyByM)

41 7 It is said an Eastern monarch once charged his wise men to invent him a sentence, to be ever in view, and which should be true and appropriate in all times and situations. They presented him the words: "And this, too, shall pass away." How much it expresses! How chastening in the hour of pride! How consoling in the depths of affliction!
_______

A friend of mine, a logic professor, once asked me to write him a program that would make everything he writes true. I offered to make him one that inserted ", or maybe not" whenever he typed a period.

Posted by: Anachronda at March 29, 2011 06:04 AM (6fER6)

42 The land of the free and the home of the boned.

Posted by: Soap MacTavish at March 29, 2011 06:07 AM (vbh31)

43 7 It is said an Eastern monarch once charged his wise men to invent him a sentence, to be ever in view, and which should be true and appropriate in all times and situations. They presented him the words: "And this, too, shall pass away." How much it expresses! How chastening in the hour of pride! How consoling in the depths of affliction!

Posted by: A. Lincoln at March 29, 2011 10:43 AM (GTbGH)


Sic transit gloria mundi ?

Posted by: DiogenesLamp at March 29, 2011 06:07 AM (/G5LI)

44

We have so many resources in this country. Just imagine how well off we would all be if there government intervention was minimal.

Imagine all the oil we would be producing from drill, shale and sands. The coal, Iron Ore, REM, and Uranium we would be mining.  The natural gas we would be producing.

We're an energy powerhouse but we're not allowed to touch most of it.

I too believe know that the only way we get back on sound fiscal footing is by cutting back on entitlements or eliminating them all together. However, as Warden mentioned above, that's just eliminating some of the liability side of the ledger. We have so many assets we are not utilizing that its sickening.

We've chosen decline. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

We have the resources, the man power, the geography(warm water ports on the Pacific and Atlantic), and the know how, but government and an entitlement/green mindset is preventing us from being all that we can be.

Posted by: Ben at March 29, 2011 06:08 AM (wuv1c)

45 As long as the Fed can create dollars out of thin air this will never stop .

Posted by: Bill D. Cat at March 29, 2011 06:08 AM (npr0X)

46 I was recommending monty's threads to a co worker and PA's threads too.  We had been talking about the economy and the tea party, in general terms.  I was sort of taken aback when she said "how old is this country?" and then said "well, we're due for a revolution aren't we?"   I have to say I said "I guess so" and was thrilled to be called by my assistant.  I really wimped out but I was so shocked.

Posted by: curious at March 29, 2011 06:08 AM (k1rwm)

47 Since the financial crisis consumer debt has declined all of 2%.  Is it any wonder $3.5 Trillion in free money Ben has showered on the world is now pumping commodities while the Yen and Euro,  currencies of the world's boom economies.

Posted by: gary gulrud at March 29, 2011 06:09 AM (/g2vP)

48

The left has inspired me!  Let's just all fill bankruptcy together. Everyone, all together now.  See, everyone wins, no one loses.  Being a liberal is so enlightening.

Posted by: Marie at March 29, 2011 06:09 AM (W7Seu)

49 In this country we can produce lots more oil than we do.

We *can* do it. But the important question is: will we?

Our main problem lies not in a lack of raw materials or technology or skill. It lies in our ideas, and in our culture. Our welfare state has infantilized us to a really astonishing extent, and made us wards of a fairly incompetent state apparatus from which we feel powerless to release ourselves.


Posted by: Monty at March 29, 2011 06:10 AM (FC+dS)

50 When will it fall? Weeks ... months ... years .... I want the boning to happen already so we can move on and fix the damn mess.

Posted by: mastour at March 29, 2011 06:13 AM (RKRXz)

51 it lies in lack of leadership monty......

Posted by: phoenixgirl at March 29, 2011 06:13 AM (eOXTH)

52 Posted by: Monty at March 29, 2011 11:10 AM (FC+dS)

And, on top of that, the ADA just changed the rules so that your employer has to prove that you're not disabled (as regards "reasonable accommodation") instead of you having to submit actual proof that you are.

Yay!

I don't think it can be said enough- until people face actual consequences for their choices and actions, personal responsibility won't return.  Until personal responsibility returns, we won't have the will to make the necessary choices that will lead this country out of the DOOM! into which it is spiraling.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at March 29, 2011 06:14 AM (8y9MW)

53 "Many of us feel"

Rather *feeley* today aren't we?

Posted by: jeannie at March 29, 2011 06:15 AM (GdalM)

54 Our main problem lies not in a lack of raw materials or technology or skill. It lies in our ideas, and in our culture. Our welfare state has infantilized us to a really astonishing extent, and made us wards of a fairly incompetent state apparatus from which we feel powerless to release ourselves.
Posted by: Monty at March 29, 2011 11:10 AM (FC+dS)


One of the things I advocate is to patronize the industry of those who agree with us and boycott the industry of those who do not.

I don't buy movies or go to the Movie theater. I don't watch ABC, CBS, MSNBC or CNN. If you have a choice, choose not to help those who aid our enemies. When buying online, I favor those states that more reflect my philosophy. If I have a choice between buying something from Texas or California, I buy from Texas.

Just Sayin.

Posted by: DiogenesLamp at March 29, 2011 06:15 AM (/G5LI)

55 Posted by: phoenixgirl at March 29, 2011 11:13 AM (eOXTH)

but no one is willing to step up.  How many wishy washy republicans are out there?  The poor freshman in congress and the tea party are being used by reid to masterfully blame them for all the problems in not compromising.  This isn't a compromising time, it's not an essay, it's a force choice test and someone has to grow a set and stick to their principals.  No one is willing to do this, they all stop short cause they don't want to be seen as being the one who isn't willing to "cross the damned aisle".  I'm sick of aisle crossing just do the job.

Posted by: curious at March 29, 2011 06:16 AM (k1rwm)

56 I don't think it can be said enough- until people face actual consequences for their choices and actions, personal responsibility won't return.  Until personal responsibility returns, we won't have the will to make the necessary choices that will lead this country out of the DOOM! into which it is spiraling.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at March 29, 2011 11:14 AM (8y9MW)


California elected Jerry Brown. They can't feel enough pain quickly enough in my opinion.

Posted by: DiogenesLamp at March 29, 2011 06:16 AM (/G5LI)

57

When will it fall? Weeks ... months ... years .... I want the boning to happen already so we can move on and fix the damn mess.

I'm not optimistic that rebuilding will be all that great.

If a collapse or correction happens, what makes everyone think that the average voting american will blame the appropriate parties?

Think of the left leaning and moderates people you know in your life. If we default, do you think they'll just turn into Mises, Hayek or Freidman?

Or will they blame capitalism?

I just don't see a major change in people's view if there is a collapse, correct, default.

Look at France, with every successive collapsing government in their history, it was replaced by a larger welfare state. Or England post WW2. It essentially bankrupted itself fighting the war and after the war went full socialist.

Posted by: Ben at March 29, 2011 06:17 AM (wuv1c)

58 Posted by: DiogenesLamp at March 29, 2011 11:16 AM (/G5LI)

Thank you for illustrating my point.

Consequence has been so absent from CA for so long that they were willing to re-elect Jerry Brown as Governor.  And, sadly, they probably won't face any consequences for that, either.  Not until and unless the other States all stand up and say, "If you try to use our money to bail out California, you'll find out what "secession" really means."

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at March 29, 2011 06:18 AM (8y9MW)

59 One of the problems with people feeling pain for their bad decisions is that usually the pain comes so long AFTER the bad decision that people can't see the connection.

It's like punishing a dog hours later for taking a poop. He doesn't understand WHY he's being punished, so he just thinks you're being mean.

Posted by: DiogenesLamp at March 29, 2011 06:19 AM (/G5LI)

60 O/T:  why don't they warn you so you don't take your car in?

So bill leaves harlem and BO makes a point of going there.  Wonder if he's trying to say something to bill.

Posted by: curious at March 29, 2011 06:20 AM (k1rwm)

61 it lies in lack of leadership monty......

I disagree. Leaders have always been a mixed bag. There is probably a troupe of chimps in some forest with a loser Alpha chimp who always gets them lost, who knuckles under to the bigger Alpha in a troupe in the next valley, who hogs all the good food and just sits around all day picking his ass. Bad leadership is a constant of the universe. We can't depend on "good leadership" to save us from every problem because good leaders are pretty rare.

For every Washington or Lincoln we have ten nothings like Fillmore or Buchanan. The Romans had Julius Caesar and Marcus Aurelius; they also had Nero and Caligula. The Brits got Winston Churchill; they also got a lot of idiots like Neville Chamberlain.

The strength of a country -- of a culture -- is the people, not the leaders. It's something that Mark Steyn calls "civilizational confidence". It bespeaks a culture of builders, of creators, of path-breakers and innovators. We used to be a country like that, but we're losing it, like air leaking out of a balloon.

Posted by: Monty at March 29, 2011 06:21 AM (FC+dS)

62 Thought for the day:  If people are the solution, doesn't it stand to reason that they are also, in great part, the problem?

Posted by: AoSHQ's worst commenter, DarkLord© at March 29, 2011 06:21 AM (GBXon)

63

"Nothing lasts forever -- not men, not institutions, not buildings or monuments. Even stones wear away in time. Nothing is forever."

 

inescapable truth...

Posted by: Shoey at March 29, 2011 06:21 AM (jdOk/)

64 So beck is "going to release something, that he thinks is just slightly terrifying" that he will release on either thursday or friday.

One of his researchers found this 5 weeks ago and it's really important so he wants you to watch tonight.

Posted by: curious at March 29, 2011 06:22 AM (k1rwm)

65 Posted by: Ben at March 29, 2011 11:17 AM (wuv1c)

Those aren't exactly the same.  Also, you're forgetting something: when people talk about "rebuild" no one (at least, no one I've talked to) thinks that there will be some new Constitutional Convention wherein a new Jefferson or Washington or Adams will lead us into the new promised land.

What I tend to think will happen is that we'll split based on regional differences.  There are lots of scenarios, there, but the meat is that your liberal areas will band together, and your conservative areas will band together.  Then, in about 20 years or so- when the liberal areas have nothing left but poverty and privation, they'll ask- very nicely- for the conservative areas to help them.

If the conservative areas are smart, they'll either say "no," or they'll say, "Sure.  Here's what you have to do, first..."

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at March 29, 2011 06:23 AM (8y9MW)

66 Even the weather speaks of DOOM.  There is snow on the ground in Iowa today.

Can I sue Michael Mann?

Posted by: AmishDude at March 29, 2011 06:23 AM (T0NGe)

67

So beck is "going to release something, that he thinks is just slightly terrifying" that he will release on either thursday or friday.

One of his researchers found this 5 weeks ago and it's really important so he wants you to watch tonight.

but first a message from our sponsor, food insurance. When the world is falling apart these people will totally deliver food to your house, even if oil is 10 bucks a barrell and inflation has sent the price of food skyrocketing.

Food Insurance, you can totally depend on it when you will need it most.

Posted by: Ben at March 29, 2011 06:23 AM (wuv1c)

68 So he "feels it's going to come crashing down quickly and most people won't have time to think"

great

Posted by: curious at March 29, 2011 06:24 AM (k1rwm)

69 One of his researchers found this 5 weeks ago and it's really important so he wants you to watch tonight.

Posted by: curious at March 29, 2011 11:22 AM (k1rwm)

I disagree, I think Beck wants us to never watch his show.  He would rather we watch cartoons.

Posted by: AmishDude at March 29, 2011 06:24 AM (T0NGe)

70 Our welfare state has infantilized us to a really astonishing extent, and made us wards of a fairly incompetent state apparatus from which we feel powerless to release ourselves.

Posted by: Monty at March 29, 2011 11:10 AM (FC+dS)

Agreed.  The Donks deny the problem.  Republicans don't want to take point knowing the D plan is to frag them the instant they propose real solutions. 

This really is Stuff Jefferson Said: The natural progress of things is for liberty to yeild, and government to gain ground.

The desire to use force to make eternal problems go away, benefit political patrons, and to get rich is just too much.  And then you reach now where government is hamstrung to do the things it must do because the obligation to write individual checks has become all that matters politically.   

Posted by: Beagle at March 29, 2011 06:26 AM (sOtz/)

71

Food Insurance, you can totally depend on it when you will need it most.

Posted by: Ben at March 29, 2011 11:23 AM (wuv1c)

And gold...dont forget about the gold

Posted by: Red Shirt at March 29, 2011 06:27 AM (FIDMq)

72

Food Insurance, you can totally depend on it when you will need it most.

Posted by: Ben at March 29, 2011 11:23 AM (wuv1c)

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Just do to lawyers what we do to bankers, doctors or other people who produce actual economic value in this society.

See how they like it.  The easiest way to ensure that a regulation never gets passed is to apply it to lawyers too.

Posted by: AmishDude at March 29, 2011 06:27 AM (T0NGe)

73 I think the internationalists are moving more boldly. I'm not talking about a conspiracy or some grand plan. Rather, I'm talking about lots of like-minded people all moving in the same general direction. Our Constitution has been the one thing that keeps the world from evolving into globalized collectivism, and I am sure that there are people all over the world whose waking thought each day is, "what can I do to undermine the US Constitution today?" The 52 put them in charge here.

Posted by: FRONT TOWARD LEFT at March 29, 2011 06:28 AM (Pzf4N)

74 Thread hijacking in progress...


Monty, on a completely different subject (but one which I believe is near and dear to your heart. Books and Abe Lincoln) Did you see the new book which purports Lincoln's very racist opinions regarding freed slaves?

Here's a quote from Yahoo.

"McLEAN, Va. – Abraham Lincoln's Gettysburg Address has inspired Americans for generations, but consider his jarring remarks in 1862 to a White House audience of free blacks, urging them to leave the U.S. and settle in Central America.

"For the sake of your race, you should sacrifice something of your present comfort for the purpose of being as grand in that respect as the white people," Lincoln said, promoting his idea of colonization: resettling blacks in foreign countries on the belief that whites and blacks could not coexist in the same nation.""



Been wanting to ask you about this, but hadn't had the opportunity before. Kind of a bombshell about Lincoln.


Posted by: DiogenesLamp at March 29, 2011 06:28 AM (/G5LI)

75 I'll tell you how fucked up this country is ...

We're sitting on top of a goldmine. One we could use to utterly break the back of the Mideast terrorist states while dramatically driving down energy costs and jump starting the economy.

It's called natural gas. And we have it in abundance. If we had spent all the money President Motown Night wasted on his "stimulus" building the infrastructure necessary to transport natural gas and fuel consumer vehicles with it ... we'd be halfway out of this mess.

The stuff burns cleaner and is far cheaper than oil. We have shitloads of it and have access to more every day thanks to new horizontal drilling techniques.

But we don't take advantage of it. We let it sit there while gas prices skyrocket.

Posted by: Warden at March 29, 2011 06:28 AM (gYx8r)

76 One of the problems with people feeling pain for their bad decisions is that usually the pain comes so long AFTER the bad decision that people can't see the connection.

 Bullcrap.  That may be true of children (and, indeed, we've made many adults into children, and prevented many children from ever growing up), but Adults are supposed to have a longer view.  It's not hard at all for me to associate the 6.5% I pay on my mortgage to bad decisions I'd made previously.  Indeed, it's kind of instinctive for me.

I have to say this occassionally, and I don't know why it isn't just burned into peoples' minds... dogs aren't people.  A dog, at best, is like a child.  And, yes, they have to be punished immediately for bad behavior.  But even a child can begin to understand a punishment hours later is tied to earlier misbehavior.  Adults can, if they're required to, see how something bad now is because of something they did days, weeks, months, or even years ago.

We, as a society, just don't make them do that.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at March 29, 2011 06:28 AM (8y9MW)

77 >>It's built by producing something of value One of the greatest myths that continues to endure is the idea that we can't manufacture in this country anymore because our labor costs are too high. False. We can't manufacture competitively anymore because of the mountains of government regulations and restrictions at both the local and federal levels. My little company is forced to spend a ridiculous amount of time and money working with various alphabet agencies including the DOT and ATF. Mindless exercises that none of our foreign competitors have to endure and it makes it increasingly difficult for us to expand our manufacturing here in the US. We're already looking at various overseas locations for expansion, not because we want to but because our own gov't is forcing us to do it to be competitive. At a time when the world is getting more competitive and countries around the world are doing whatever they can to make themselves more attractive to manufacturers the US is doing just the opposite and layering on more and more bureaucratic red tape. I'm sick and tired of liberals whining that evil corporations are moving jobs overseas while they support the very policies that force companies to do it for survival.

Posted by: JackStraw at March 29, 2011 06:30 AM (TMB3S)

78 Kind of a bombshell about Lincoln.

Not at all.  Lincoln was well-known as an advocate of resettlement.  Central America is news to me, though.  I always heard that he pushed for the west coast of Africa.

Posted by: AmishDude at March 29, 2011 06:31 AM (T0NGe)

79 Your average person is afflicted with what psychologists call "normalcy bias". Check it out on wikipedia. It is a powerful thing.

Posted by: navybrat at March 29, 2011 06:31 AM (glOq3)

80 What I tend to think will happen is that we'll split based on regional differences.  There are lots of scenarios, there, but the meat is that your liberal areas will band together, and your conservative areas will band together.  Then, in about 20 years or so- when the liberal areas have nothing left but poverty and privation, they'll ask- very nicely- for the conservative areas to help them.
If the conservative areas are smart, they'll either say "no," or they'll say, "Sure.  Here's what you have to do, first..."

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at March 29, 2011 11:23 AM (8y9MW)


More likely those people who caused the calamities in the Liberal areas of the country will come streaming into Conservative parts of the country as refugees, bringing with them the faulty thinking and bad ideology that wrecked the places where they come from.

Not sure if it wouldn't be kinder to all involved to turn them back at the border.


Posted by: DiogenesLamp at March 29, 2011 06:31 AM (/G5LI)

81

Warden,

And unlike rainbows, unicorns, solar, or wind you can run a car or truck larger than a bicycle shaped like a teardrop on CNG.  

Posted by: Beagle at March 29, 2011 06:32 AM (sOtz/)

82

I have to say this occassionally, and I don't know why it isn't just burned into peoples' minds... dogs aren't people.  A dog, at best, is like a child.  And, yes, they have to be punished immediately for bad behavior.  But even a child can begin to understand a punishment hours later is tied to earlier misbehavior.  Adults can, if they're required to, see how something bad now is because of something they did days, weeks, months, or even years ago.

We, as a society, just don't make them do that.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at March 29, 2011 11:28 AM (8y9MW)

 

i'll second that

 

Posted by: Shoey at March 29, 2011 06:32 AM (473WA)

83 It's something that Mark Steyn calls "civilizational confidence". It bespeaks a culture of builders, of creators, of path-breakers and innovators. We used to be a country like that, but we're losing it, like air leaking out of a balloon.

Steyn also likes to point out that the rise of the Western social welfare state is robbing people of the ability to act in defense (or defence, I guess) of their civilizations against existential threats like demographic implosion (Japan at lowest-low fertility rate and most of Europe below replacement rate) and multiculturalism (Eurabia).

A hot, steaming cup of DOOM!

Posted by: Andy at March 29, 2011 06:33 AM (5Rurq)

84 The reason I remain cautious but optimistic is because we do have the opportunity to change leadership every four years. And as I have quoted earlier, 'you can count on America to do the right thing after everything else fails'

Posted by: polynikes at March 29, 2011 06:34 AM (iRWGZ)

85 But its not Doom Doom...

Posted by: Whoopi Goldberg, Sooper Genius at March 29, 2011 06:34 AM (NtXW4)

86

In West Texas farmland, a double-wide isn't the best permanent structure.  It would do fine for a while, but wind storms, sand storms, tornadoes, and thunderstorms all conspire to make them less than ideal.

Yeh, I worry about my family in West Texas (mountains) in something that small. They get serious winds...

Posted by: Mama AJ at March 29, 2011 06:35 AM (XdlcF)

87 Posted by: DiogenesLamp at March 29, 2011 11:28 AM (/G5LI)

Lincoln was not the angel people would like to believe he was.  Lincoln really didn't care much about slavery itself, IIRC.  Though he, personally, opposed it, he didn't really set much store buy it as a political issue.  He only released the slaves as a war tactic (a quite good one, too).

In some ways, Lincoln was the very first neocon: putting his idea of American Greatness before and above the very Constitution which provided that greatness in the first place.

Which is not to say the Abolitionists were wrong, or that things didn't turn out for the better by having the United States in WWI, but let's not bestow sainthood on the man, either.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at March 29, 2011 06:35 AM (8y9MW)

88 85 The reason I remain cautious but optimistic is because we do have the opportunity to change leadership every four years. And as I have quoted earlier, 'you can count on America to do the right thing after everything else fails'

Posted by: polynikes at March 29, 2011 11:34 AM (iRWGZ)

LOL... I'm the type who expects everything to go wrong, so I can be pleasently suprised when things go correctly....

But then again, Murphys Laws of War don't just affect war.... and dam... thinking on it, my X wifes Maiden name was Murphy (asking for trouble with that one?).

Posted by: Romeo13 at March 29, 2011 06:36 AM (NtXW4)

89 It's called natural gas. And we have it in abundance. If we had spent all the money President Motown Night wasted on his "stimulus" building the infrastructure necessary to transport natural gas and fuel consumer vehicles with it ... we'd be halfway out of this mess.
The stuff burns cleaner and is far cheaper than oil. We have shitloads of it and have access to more every day thanks to new horizontal drilling techniques.
But we don't take advantage of it. We let it sit there while gas prices skyrocket.
Posted by: Warden at March 29, 2011 11:28 AM (gYx8r)


Amen! I am currently in the process of installing a CNG filling station on my property. The real impediment to conversion is the cost of an "official" conversion. $12,000.00 per vehicle.

It is my opinion that it should be possible to get conversion costs down to around $1,000.00 per vehicle, and at that time the idea becomes practical. Currently Natural gas is selling for @ $0.50 per gallon in my area.

I'm going to do everything I can to convince (and help) people to switch. F*ck the middle east!


Posted by: DiogenesLamp at March 29, 2011 06:36 AM (/G5LI)

90 Monty, on a completely different subject (but one which I believe is near and dear to your heart. Books and Abe Lincoln) Did you see the new book which purports Lincoln's very racist opinions regarding freed slaves?

Liberia was founded by freed American slaves in the 1820-1840 period. Lincoln, like many non-abolitionists who were nevertheless hostile to the "peculiar institution", based their disagreement with the practice not on any real love for the black man but rather on the moral repugnance of the practice itself. Lincoln's rationale for freeing the slaves was founded on his desire to win the Civil War -- it was a tool of statecraft, in other words, not a humanitarian gesture. (Which is not to say that Lincoln did not feel for the mistreated slaves. He did, deeply.)

Lincoln's views on blacks were more complex than both friends and foes realize, but he was certainly no cracker racist. For a man of his time, he was remarkably open-minded -- his suggestion to re-patriate slaves to Africa was very much in keeping with a lot of mainstream thought back in those days, as the founding of Liberia makes clear.

Posted by: Monty at March 29, 2011 06:37 AM (FC+dS)

91 Posted by: DiogenesLamp at March 29, 2011 11:36 AM (/G5LI)

If there were more CNG stations around me, my next vehicle would probably be a CNG vehicle.  But there aren't.  In fact, I only know of one in the entire Dallas/Fort Worth Metroplex.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at March 29, 2011 06:38 AM (8y9MW)

92

In West Texas farmland, a double-wide isn't the best permanent structure.  It would do fine for a while, but wind storms, sand storms, tornadoes, and thunderstorms all conspire to make them less than ideal.

Yeh, I worry about my family in West Texas (mountains) in something that small. They get serious winds...

Am I the only one who thinks this is a marvelously apt metaphor?

Posted by: AoSHQ's worst commenter, DarkLord© at March 29, 2011 06:38 AM (GBXon)

93 "Adults can, if they're required to, see how something bad now is because of something they did days, weeks, months, or even years ago. "We, as a society, just don't make them do that." It's worse than that. We, as a society, struggle to remove all sharp objects from the room.

Posted by: FRONT TOWARD LEFT at March 29, 2011 06:39 AM (Pzf4N)

94  Bullcrap.  That may be true of children (and, indeed, we've made many adults into children, and prevented many children from ever growing up), but Adults are supposed to have a longer view.  It's not hard at all for me to associate the 6.5% I pay on my mortgage to bad decisions I'd made previously.  Indeed, it's kind of instinctive for me.
Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at March 29, 2011 11:28 AM (8y9MW)

Victor David Hanson recently wrote an article asserting that America has become a nation of Adolescents. He is spot on. We HAVE become a nation of Children who do NOT take the long view, and DO NOT associate our bad voting decisions with the bad results that occur.

Sorry, but the 52% of voters that thought the Man Child was the answer were all incapable of thinking like an adult.

Posted by: DiogenesLamp at March 29, 2011 06:39 AM (/G5LI)

95 Somewhere I have a book made up entirely of correspondence between Abraham Lincoln and everyone from beggars to Jefferson Davis. Along with a lot of the well-known letters, I remember one about resettlement (I think written by a freed slave), that was really interesting. I will dig for the book, and if I can't find it right away I'll be sure to have it handy for the Book Thread.

Posted by: Lincolntf at March 29, 2011 06:40 AM (xMT+4)

96 So is going to war unconstitutionally, but what choice do we have?

Posted by: Chuckit at March 29, 2011 06:41 AM (s3mbn)

97 79 Kind of a bombshell about Lincoln.

Not at all.  Lincoln was well-known as an advocate of resettlement.  Central America is news to me, though.  I always heard that he pushed for the west coast of Africa.

Posted by: AmishDude at March 29, 2011 11:31 AM (T0NGe)


The Country of "Liberia" was formed by Freed slaves from America. So far it looks like they would have been better off staying here, Jim Crow and all.

Posted by: DiogenesLamp at March 29, 2011 06:41 AM (/G5LI)

98 Yes, there are people here who waste water. However, this doesn't seem to be why the city is raising rates: "To address falling revenues and declining consumption, the water department is proposing to make the bulk of the increase a fixed fee charged to all customers regardless of how much water they use." Water use is going DOWN but prices are going UP. Not to mention Ohio, and Cleveland, are bleeding jobs and citizens already.

Posted by: Barb the Evil Genius at March 29, 2011 11:03 AM (MyByM)

In Los Angeles, the Dept of Water & Power is full of cronies who are parked there after they've worn out their welcome in City Hall or LA County. DWP is a cash cow that covers a lot of LA's spending shortfalls... for now. Buy both DWP and LA have massive pension problems to say nothing of LA County. LA used to be cheap and pleasant. Now... well, you know.

Posted by: ExExZonie at March 29, 2011 06:41 AM (i0JDu)

99 Adults can, if they're required to, see how something bad now is because of something they did days, weeks, months, or even years ago.

We, as a society, just don't make them do that.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at March 29, 2011 11:28 AM (8y9MW)

But this is a learned behaviour, not one which is intrinisc to humanity.  Thus with some, punishment later will not do any good.  There are MANY people out there who think that no matter how truley justified, any punishment for THEM is just wrong (it wasn't my fault, someone talked me into it...)...

Just as there are many who do not understand the example when OTHERS are being punished, as they do not believe that it could happen to them...

But, much like Heilein, I believe it comes back to them no being adequately and immediatly spanked when warranted as children... respect for consequence is a LEARNED behaviour IMO.

Posted by: Romeo13 at March 29, 2011 06:41 AM (NtXW4)

100

If there were more CNG stations around me, my next vehicle would probably be a CNG vehicle.  But there aren't. 

We're getting a second one here.

 

Posted by: Mama AJ at March 29, 2011 06:42 AM (XdlcF)

101 I see the quite from Lincoln but I don't see any quote that supports the conclusion the author made at the end of the quote, is there a quote where Lincoln said whites and blacks could not coexist? I'd bet not.

Posted by: polynikes at March 29, 2011 06:42 AM (iRWGZ)

102
Coincidence?

More protests erupt against an anti-union bill, now in New Hampshire

Another Republican-controlled legislature faced massive protests against proposed legislation which would greatly limit collective bargaining rights for workers.  The movement which began in Wisconsin has now seemingly found a home in New Hampshire, where Republicans are considering a bill which could turn union employees into "at-will" employees of the state in future contracts.

Counterfeit bills passed at eight stores

PORTSMOUTH — Police issued an alert Thursday after a recent surge in reports of counterfeit $20 bills being passed at local businesses.

Police said eight businesses have been victimized in the past week, including convenience stores and fast food restaurants.

Coincidence or Cloward Piven strategy?

Posted by: Ed Anger at March 29, 2011 06:43 AM (7+pP9)

103 Nothing lasts forever, even cold November rain...or this box of Twinkies.

Posted by: Axl "Chunky" Rose at March 29, 2011 06:43 AM (v+QvA)

104 85 The reason I remain cautious but optimistic is because we do have the opportunity to change leadership every four years. And as I have quoted earlier, 'you can count on America to do the right thing after everything else fails'

Posted by: polynikes at March 29, 2011 11:34 AM (iRWGZ)


Changing ships captains won't do any good after one has steered the ship into an Iceberg. The argument is whether or not that collision is now inevitable or not.

Posted by: DiogenesLamp at March 29, 2011 06:43 AM (/G5LI)

105 I think Lincoln also advanced the idea of settling slaves in Cuba. (In fact a lot of escaped and freed slaves did go to Cuba, then and later. Cuba also received slaves from the French and English sugar plantations.) The Central America theory isn't that surprising -- it was very much a part of the gestalt of the times. There was even talk after the Civil War of annexing Cuba, but it never came to anything.

Posted by: Monty at March 29, 2011 06:43 AM (FC+dS)

106 Steyn also likes to point out that the rise of the Western social welfare state is robbing people of the ability to act in defense (or defence, I guess) of their civilizations against existential threats like demographic implosion (Japan at lowest-low fertility rate and most of Europe below replacement rate) and multiculturalism (Eurabia).

Posted by: Andy at March 29, 2011 11:33 AM (5Rurq)

Given that welfare pays poor people to breed like rats, I'd say it's a minor contributor to demographic collapse.  But regardless, demographic collapse is only bad in one case - when the "other" is allowed in.  Multiculti is the real problem.  If the Europeans had kept out the Muz, their declining numbers would not be that big a deal.  Yes - the economy would shrink.  But it would have fewer people to support, so that's really not a big deal.  They'd still have plenty of people to farm, run utilities, etc.  As for Japan, they could use some population reduction.  It's a crowded place.  People practially live on top of each other over there.  Americans would hate it.  If Japan survives to see a lower population it will probably be just fine.  They'll enjoy cheaper housing, less strain on the infrastructure, and probably cheaper food as well. 

Western civilization did just fine with a smaller number of people.  The population has grown quite a lot in the last hundred years.  The problem is the growth in ENEMY populations.  That's what needs to be worried about.

Posted by: Reactionary at March 29, 2011 06:43 AM (xUM1Q)

107

O/T, but actually the theme of DOOM! being a choice, not a destiny, is correlated here. 

Geert Wilders gave quite a good speech in Rome last Friday about the failure of multiculturalism and specifically the incursion of Islamism into Europe.  He compared it (aptly, IMO) to the freezing of the Rhine that aided the Germanic barbarians in their eventual invasion of Rome back in the fifth century.

You could easily replace every reference to Islamism and multiculturalism in Mr. Wilders' speech with "entitlement mentality" and get a fair refutation of the welfare state and entitlement attitudes in general.  They really are two sides of the same coin.

"I am here today to talk about multiculturalism the entitlement mentality. This term has a number of different meanings. I use the term to refer to a specific political ideology. It advocates that all cultures are economic results should be equal. If they are equal it follows that the state is not allowed to promote any specific cultural values economic and social system as central and dominant. In other words: multiculturalism the entitlement mentality holds that the state should not promote a leitkultur merit- and performance-based system for success, which immigrants entitlement-minded brats have to accept if they want to live in our midst move out of their parents' basement.

It is this ideology of cultural relativism social justice which the German Chancellor Angela Merkel recently referred to when she said that multiculturalism the welfare state has proved 'an absolute failure.'"

Posted by: MWR at March 29, 2011 06:44 AM (4df7R)

108 Posted by: DiogenesLamp at March 29, 2011 11:39 AM (/G5LI)

I disagree.  I don't think they're incapable.  I just think they don't.  Those are two different things.  I'm perfectly capable of doing construction work for a living.  I choose not to.

If we took away the safety nets.  If we, as FTL pointed out, quit removing the sharp objects from the room, that 52% would figure it out pretty quickly.  The problem, of course, is that 52% gets to vote, and they'll never vote to put the sharp objects back in.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at March 29, 2011 06:44 AM (8y9MW)

109 Lincoln was not the angel people would like to believe he was.  Lincoln really didn't care much about slavery itself, IIRC.  Though he, personally, opposed it, he didn't really set much store buy it as a political issue. 

No.  He opposed slavery and campaigned on it.  What he wasn't was some sort of advocate of racial equality.

In some ways, Lincoln was the very first neocon: putting his idea of American Greatness before and above the very Constitution which provided that greatness in the first place.

Fort Sumter was an unprovoked attack, Lincoln was not salivating for war.  The slave states knew that the jig was up. The Republican party would ensure that new territories would be free states, the Senate would have a majority of free state Senators and the uneasy compromises would end.

Posted by: AmishDude at March 29, 2011 06:44 AM (T0NGe)

110

But, much like Heilein, I believe it comes back to them no being adequately and immediatly spanked when warranted as children... respect for consequence is a LEARNED behaviour IMO.

Posted by: Romeo13 at March 29, 2011 11:41 AM (NtXW4)

Amen.  9 out of 10 child discipline problems can be solved with judicious applications of beatings.  Lack of ass whippings is what makes the current crop of kids so insufferable.

Posted by: Reactionary at March 29, 2011 06:45 AM (xUM1Q)

111

Posted by: DiogenesLamp at March 29, 2011 11:36 AM (/G5LI)

Gemany has a Volkswagon which can burn either Petrol, or CNG... and changes with the flip of a switch, but Washington will not allow it to be imported.

Technology is there, but the folks controlling the media do not want to even talk about it.... even Fox (but just how much Saudi money is now invested in Fox?).

Posted by: Romeo13 at March 29, 2011 06:46 AM (NtXW4)

112 We're due for a world war to go with our depression.  When you get too far behind in the game, someone will always kick the board over.

It's tradition.

Posted by: toby928™ at March 29, 2011 06:46 AM (GTbGH)

113 >>respect for consequence is a LEARNED behaviour IMO A generation that was raised by people who thought every kid should get a trophy just for participating is coming into power. A generation which believes in the guarantee of outcome not opportunity. Yeah, that's probably not a recipe for success.

Posted by: JackStraw at March 29, 2011 06:47 AM (TMB3S)

114 The problem, of course, is that 52% gets to vote, and they'll never vote to put the sharp objects back in.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at March 29, 2011 11:44 AM (8y9MW)

Yep.  The curse of universal suffrage.  That's the true root of the DOOM.  It's a destroyer of nations and cultures. 

Posted by: Reactionary at March 29, 2011 06:48 AM (xUM1Q)

115 Another Republican-controlled legislature faced massive protests against proposed legislation which would greatly limit collective bargaining rights for workers.

State workers.  State workers.

Although I think all people who are enslaved by their rich lawyer union masters should be freed, this is just another example of media bias.

Note that Cuomo's huge budget slashes don't get a peep from the libs.  It's almost like they're nothing but partisan slobs.

Posted by: AmishDude at March 29, 2011 06:48 AM (T0NGe)

116 A generation that was raised by people who thought every kid should get a trophy just for participating is coming into power. A generation which believes in the guarantee of outcome not opportunity.

Yeah, that's probably not a recipe for success.

Posted by: JackStraw at March 29, 2011 11:47 AM (TMB3S)

Not to mention a Generation who elected a President, who had never done anything of worth in his life.... because he spoke well, and was black...

Posted by: Romeo13 at March 29, 2011 06:49 AM (NtXW4)

117 Note that Cuomo's huge budget slashes don't get a peep from the libs.

Is he slashing services to the taxpayer, or money to the unions?

Posted by: toby928™ at March 29, 2011 06:50 AM (GTbGH)

118 Lack of ass whippings is what makes the current crop of kids so insufferable.

My mom had no qualms about busting my ass in public if I got out of line. One time she whacked me for acting up in a store, and some lady gave her the stink-eye and said, "How can you do that to a child?"

My mom raised her open palm and shot back: "With this right here."

Posted by: Monty at March 29, 2011 06:50 AM (FC+dS)

119 Lincoln's views on blacks were more complex than both friends and foes realize, but he was certainly no cracker racist. For a man of his time, he was remarkably open-minded -- his suggestion to re-patriate slaves to Africa was very much in keeping with a lot of mainstream thought back in those days, as the founding of Liberia makes clear.

Posted by: Monty at March 29, 2011 11:37 AM (FC+dS)

Like a lot of people his views became less scientific (here accepted science = racism) with time after he met more black people.  The ones who died honorably at, eh, with you know Major Matthew Broderick...  Fort Wagner! were one example which resonated with people of the time.  Frederick Douglas...    

Anyway, many Americans had similar transformations from Ben Franklin to Lincoln.  Ironically, thinking of people as individual races instead of the human race with some minor variations mostly based on latitude is the foundation of racism.  So modern anti-racism is laying a firm scientific foundation for the new racism.   

Posted by: Beagle at March 29, 2011 06:50 AM (sOtz/)

120 Well they do have the story today down in Florida where the 17 year old daunted pistol whipped her mom and forced her to buy her a car. Surprise ! The mother did not want to press charges. Seems like this sweet kid had opportunity to go to an ivy league school and charges would mess that up.

Posted by: polynikes at March 29, 2011 06:51 AM (iRWGZ)

121 Lincoln was not the angel people would like to believe he was.  Lincoln really didn't care much about slavery itself, IIRC.  Though he, personally, opposed it, he didn't really set much store buy it as a political issue.  He only released the slaves as a war tactic (a quite good one, too).
In some ways, Lincoln was the very first neocon: putting his idea of American Greatness before and above the very Constitution which provided that greatness in the first place.
Which is not to say the Abolitionists were wrong, or that things didn't turn out for the better by having the United States in WWI, but let's not bestow sainthood on the man, either.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at March 29, 2011 11:35 AM (8y9MW)


I have evolved a completely different take on Lincoln that the one I grew up with. He started the war because his ego couldn't stand the thought of being rebuked by the secessionists, and he pursued it primarily for that same reason. He intentionally provoked the war in a calculated and manipulative manner because he never envisioned it becoming as bloody and horrible as it turned out to be. He thought the South would take it's spanking and then get back in line.

Lincoln was the first of U.S. Government Supremacists that established the principle of Federal Authority. Much of the disaster we face now of excessive Federal intervention is the Results of Lincoln's breaking of the original relationship between the Federal and the State.


In other words, he was the first Big Government "progressivist."  


Posted by: DiogenesLamp at March 29, 2011 06:51 AM (/G5LI)

122 "Police say the mother doesn't want to press charges because her daughter has been accepted to several Ivy League schools."

had a more detailed link to this last night in the ONT but I can't find it so I'll use this one.

It seemed to fit in with the "personal responsibility" idea

Posted by: curious at March 29, 2011 06:54 AM (k1rwm)

123 Come on ace unban me! I can't type on this iPhone for shit.

Posted by: polynikes at March 29, 2011 06:55 AM (iRWGZ)

124 HA Headlines has a link to Michael Yon calling BS on Rolling Stone's story...

Posted by: Mama AJ at March 29, 2011 06:55 AM (XdlcF)

125 I can't see getting through to any of the people I know. As I said above, they have the reasoning abilities of a six-year-old. I'm slowly realizing, though, that most of them have Mommy and Daddy backing them up to some extent. They've probably never had to deal with real life so they don't know anything about consequences.

Posted by: Barb the Evil Genius at March 29, 2011 06:56 AM (MyByM)

126 When the scene outside looks like Cormac McCarthy's The Road, I'll want Ian Fucking McShane in my foxhole with me.

Posted by: High Dollar Moron at March 29, 2011 06:57 AM (4sQwu)

127 If there were more CNG stations around me, my next vehicle would probably be a CNG vehicle.  But there aren't.  In fact, I only know of one in the entire Dallas/Fort Worth Metroplex.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at March 29, 2011 11:38 AM (8y9MW)


I'm putting mine on farm land outside the borders of a city. (Lawton/Ft.Sill) Less trouble that way. Perhaps you should consider putting in your own station if you've got the funds to do it? I managed to acquire the equipment i'm buying for $20,000.00  It's not a big system, but for the initial demand i'm expecting it ought to be big enough. If demand exceeds my systems capacity, I count that as a GOOD thing!  

60 Gallons of Storage with a 10 gallon / hour recovery rate.


Posted by: DiogenesLamp at March 29, 2011 06:57 AM (/G5LI)

128 I'm pretty sure DOOM is not an choice.

Posted by: Dr. Heinz Doofensmirtz at March 29, 2011 06:58 AM (jGsK9)

129 Perhaps you should consider putting in your own station if you've got the funds to do it?

Nope, I'm a city-slicker.  No place to put one up.

If we do get the farm working again, I'll probably push for converting the old diesel tank into a CNG tank.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at March 29, 2011 06:59 AM (8y9MW)

130 HA Headlines has a link to Michael Yon calling BS on Rolling Stone's story...

Posted by: Mama AJ at March 29, 2011 11:55 AM (XdlcF)

Morlock not an actual human being but mysterious futuristic monster?

Posted by: Beagle at March 29, 2011 06:59 AM (sOtz/)

131 Posted by: Dr. Heinz Doofensmirtz at March 29, 2011 11:58 AM (jGsK9)

Probably correct.  DOOM! isn't a choice, it's a consequence.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at March 29, 2011 06:59 AM (8y9MW)

132 Cuomo for president and I'm only half kidding.

Posted by: Palerider at March 29, 2011 07:00 AM (vL0Nv)

133

The most pressing issue for our time is the economy and national debt, but the most pressing political issue is immigration.

In the last thirteen years, the nonwhite share of the electorate has grown from 13% to around 26%. By 2020, the nonwhite share of the electorate will be nearly 35%. This doesn't presume any increase in immigration just the aging of the population that is in the US at this time. Nearly all of this increase is due to higher fertility among Hispanics and immigration from Mexico, Central America, and South America.

How exactly does the Republican party as it exists win an election in 2020? What about 2016? What about 2012?

This to me is the real DOOM. There are no long-term prospects for a conservative, Republican party.

 

 

Posted by: Paper at March 29, 2011 07:01 AM (VoSja)

134

" He started the war because his ego couldn't stand the thought of being rebuked by the secessionists, and he pursued it primarily for that same reason. "

 

What kind of half-assed psychoanalysis is that? His ego? Good lord, no wonder people are so confused about Lincoln.

Posted by: Lincolntf at March 29, 2011 07:02 AM (xMT+4)

135
If we took away the safety nets.  If we, as FTL pointed out, quit removing the sharp objects from the room, that 52% would figure it out pretty quickly.  The problem, of course, is that 52% gets to vote, and they'll never vote to put the sharp objects back in.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at March 29, 2011 11:44 AM (8y9MW)


And thus the rub. My conclusions? Democracy is an unworkable Idea. The founders DETESTED Democracy (in the original meaning, rule by people.) The founders believed that only those who contribute to the well being of the nation (by owning land and paying taxes) should have a say in who should be elected in this country.


The founders regarded Democracy as the opposite extreme of Monarchy.

Posted by: DiogenesLamp at March 29, 2011 07:03 AM (/G5LI)

136 So modern anti-racism is laying a firm scientific foundation for the new racism.

Posted by: Beagle at March 29, 2011 11:50 AM (sOtz/)

Actaully, I believe there is a Natural drive to see YOUR Genetic structure thrive... its most powerful with you, but then encompases your immediate family, then extended family, then 'tribe' (closely realted familys), and eventualy gets to race....

Problem is that we don't recognize this instictive drive and so don't compensate for it on THAT level...

Note, that even in the melting pot of America today, almost every city self segregates by racial division. Note groups such as the Black Panthers, or La Raza, or Congress's Black Caucus... or Dearborn Michigan?

Once we understand that this is a natural part of man, to think this way, we can then understand the drive, instead of just condemning somthing NOT understood...

Posted by: Romeo13 at March 29, 2011 07:04 AM (NtXW4)

137 OT: The mom jeans are staying home.....

President Obama will not throw out the ceremonial first pitch at the Washington Nationals's opening day game on Thursday.

The 44th president participated in the long-standing tradition last year, when he stepped on the mound at Nationals Park donning a Nats jacket and the cap of his favorite team, the Chicago White Sox.

Obama's pitch, as the great Bob Uecker would say, was "just a bit outside."

The president's participation in sports-related events, like his televised NCAA tournament picks, has led to criticism from opponents, who say he is not focusing closely enough on issues like the unrest in the Middle East and the nation's fiscal woes.

http://tinyurl.com/4a4fleo

Posted by: Tami at March 29, 2011 07:04 AM (VuLos)

138
HA Headlines has a link to Michael Yon calling BS on Rolling Stone's story...

Posted by: Mama AJ at March 29, 2011 11:55 AM (XdlcF)

Instapundit does, too. I'd rather give Insty a click.

Posted by: Ed Anger at March 29, 2011 07:04 AM (7+pP9)

139

Posted by: Tami

 

In other words, Obama's reputation can't take another spate of the blogosphere calling him a rag-armed fairy in Mom jeans.

Posted by: Lincolntf at March 29, 2011 07:07 AM (xMT+4)

140

The WSJ: "Govt Shutdown Grows Likelier"

If they're actually going to do it, I hope they get their budget out their 1st.

Posted by: Miss'80sBaby at March 29, 2011 07:07 AM (UO6+e)

141 The founders regarded Democracy as the opposite extreme of Monarchy.

So that means I'm being boned by my lessers instead of my betters?

Kinda hurts the same hard to tell the difference.

Posted by: Buzzsaw at March 29, 2011 07:07 AM (tf9Ne)

142 Diogenes is just pissed Lincoln never proved his log cabin where he was supposedly born was indeed in Illinois.

Posted by: polynikes at March 29, 2011 07:07 AM (iRWGZ)

143

In other words, Obama's reputation can't take another spate of the blogosphere calling him a rag-armed fairy in Mom jeans.

Posted by: Lincolntf at March 29, 2011 12:07 PM (xMT+4)

Yeah, pretty much.

Posted by: Tami at March 29, 2011 07:08 AM (VuLos)

144 Posted by: DiogenesLamp at March 29, 2011 12:03 PM (/G5LI)

True.  Which is why we're crafted as a Republic.  Unfortunately, we lost that fight quite some time ago.  So, we either need to re-fight it (with all the damage it would cause in various arena) or we need to figure out some way around it.

The more I think about it, the more I think the economic DOOM! is the little issue- however big it seems.  We can't address the economic situation with our current political landscape.  So the big issue- the one that needs most urgent addressing- is the political.  We need a re-enlightenment of Republicanism- and a case for why true Republicanism (that is- no freeloaders get to vote, Federalism, and a variety of other things) is actually preferable to our current pseudo-democracy.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at March 29, 2011 07:08 AM (8y9MW)

145 143 The founders regarded Democracy as the opposite extreme of Monarchy.

So that means I'm being boned by my lessers instead of my betters?

Kinda hurts the same hard to tell the difference.

Posted by: Buzzsaw at March 29, 2011 12:07 PM (tf9Ne)

Well... its the difference between gettin boned by lots of little dicks, or one big dick...

Posted by: Romeo13 at March 29, 2011 07:08 AM (NtXW4)

146 Satan's cock has two barbs. He calls one "moral hazard" and the other "tragedy of the commons." The enemy within has been sharpening those barbs for nearly 100 years. The 52 voted to upgrade those barbs with carbide tips. Our chitterlings are well on their way to being an excellent low-carb substitute for capellini pasta.

Posted by: FRONT TOWARD LEFT at March 29, 2011 07:09 AM (Pzf4N)

147

I'm used to the Howard Zinn-ing of Ol' Abe. The Lefties started it and subsequently attracted a sub-group of "the South will rise again"-types. (The "Lincoln was Gay" meme was big a few years ago but I think that one finally faded away.)

 

Posted by: Lincolntf at March 29, 2011 07:10 AM (xMT+4)

148
Lincoln and the Republicans of the day were the first nanny staters, sticking their noses into everybody's business. That made The War of Northern Aggression inevitable.

Posted by: Ed Anger at March 29, 2011 07:11 AM (7+pP9)

149
Fort Sumter was an unprovoked attack, Lincoln was not salivating for war.  The slave states knew that the jig was up. The Republican party would ensure that new territories would be free states, the Senate would have a majority of free state Senators and the uneasy compromises would end.

Posted by: AmishDude at March 29, 2011 11:44 AM (T0NGe)


From what I have read, and what my friend the History Major has told me, Lincoln intentionally provoked the Secessionists into attacking Ft. Sumter in a shrewd and calculated manner. He wanted an excuse to "spank" them, but he didn't want to be seen as having initiated the conflict. His Officers had informed him of a plan to resupply the fort by sea, that would have prevented any hostilities from occurring, but he intentionally provoked the hostilities by sending word that a supply convoy was being sent to resupply the fort, more or less daring them to attack it. Lincoln knew the hot headed secessionists could not help but take the bait, even though cooler heads among them advised them not to.

Lincoln then trumpeted the attack (which he expected and counted on.) amongst the Northern newspapers. He likewise dispatched Federal troops to Maryland to arrest the legislature and prevent them from voting on secession.

The American age of tolerance for later Federal excesses started there.

Posted by: DiogenesLamp at March 29, 2011 07:11 AM (/G5LI)

150

"His Officers had informed him of a plan to resupply the fort by sea, that would have prevented any hostilities from occurring, but he intentionally provoked the hostilities by sending word that a supply convoy was being sent to resupply the fort, more or less daring them to attack it. "

 

Citre please.

Posted by: Lincolntf at March 29, 2011 07:12 AM (xMT+4)

151 65 So beck is "going to release something, that he thinks is just slightly terrifying" that he will release on either thursday or friday.

One of his researchers found this 5 weeks ago and it's really important so he wants you to watch tonight.
_________

Well, not tonight-tonight. Tonight he's talking about Israel. Wouldn't want to interrupt that for terrifying stuff he found 5 weeks ago.

Posted by: Anachronda at March 29, 2011 07:13 AM (IrbU4)

152

ooops, I meant "cite'.

And I really do like to see the sources, not because I reject critiques of Abe, but because I've read about a billion Lincoln books and it's hard to remember which "facts" are actually facts and which ones are historical revision and just plain myths.

Posted by: Lincolntf at March 29, 2011 07:15 AM (xMT+4)

153
If we do get the farm working again, I'll probably push for converting the old diesel tank into a CNG tank.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at March 29, 2011 11:59 AM (8y9MW)


CNG is stored at pressures around 4000 psi. You HAVE to buy special tanks to handle that pressure. The pressure needed for adequate storage is the primary difficulty in making these systems popular.

CNG tanks also have expiration dates.

Posted by: DiogenesLamp at March 29, 2011 07:16 AM (/G5LI)

154 If one wants to know what Lincoln was actually all about with all of the myths that have grown up around him read this book.

The Real Lincoln


Lincoln and Clay were the major advocates of the "American System". A form of mercantilism that believed it was the purpose of a strong central government to tax the citizens, engage a central banks, and use the funding to make "civic improvements". This system had first been advocated by the Federalists, then the Whigs, and then the radical Republicans lead by Lincoln.

In fact he did manage to get it set up to a large extent in Illinois driving the State to the brink of bankruptcy. Then system always broke down into "friends of the administration" getting all the money and the unfavored people getting all the taxes.

It was no wonder that after the evil war when the system was put into place it became the most corrupt and crooked government that ever existed in the United States.

Posted by: Vic at March 29, 2011 07:16 AM (M9Ie6)

155 His Officers had informed him of a plan to resupply the fort by sea, that would have prevented any hostilities from occurring, but he intentionally provoked the hostilities by sending word that a supply convoy was being sent to resupply the fort, more or less daring them to attack it.

He sent non-lethal foodstuffs by ship, and informed the secessionists that it was only food and not arms or reinforcements, and defied them to deny "Food to hungry men".  

It was a shrewd move to force the secessionists to open hostilities rather than to let them take over Federal property without a fight due to privation.

Posted by: toby928™ at March 29, 2011 07:16 AM (GTbGH)

156

I have been talking to my Doomster friends, and point out two things:

1. The US is taxing its citizens at 16-19% of GDP, far lower than most of the industrialized world, which is why the ROW is still willing to let us borrow - they figure if worst comes to worst, the US will punitively tax their citizens to pay back the loans.

2. While the US is in terrible shape, every other country is in worse shape.  If you were a multimillionaire investor, or ran a soverign wealth fund, where else are you going to invest?

Posted by: Vashta Nerada at March 29, 2011 07:17 AM (SNs7J)

157
What's a chitterling?


Posted by: Soothsayer3P0 at March 29, 2011 07:20 AM (uFokq)

158

 

What kind of half-assed psychoanalysis is that? His ego? Good lord, no wonder people are so confused about Lincoln.

Posted by: Lincolntf at March 29, 2011 12:02 PM (xMT+4)


It's what appears to be left after i've looked at other possibilities that simply don't pan out. Lincoln could have simply told the troops at Ft. Sumter to march north to Washington and abandon the fort as they had abandoned the one they left earlier.

The South's argument was that they were a separate nation, and they did not want a fortress manned by a foreign nation on their soil. (The same argument we used on the British.)

It is Ironic that the Gettysburg address references 1776 (four score and seven years ago.) and the start of American independence from Britain, when the Federal forces were cast in the role of the British trying to stop it's colonies from seceding. 


Posted by: DiogenesLamp at March 29, 2011 07:20 AM (/G5LI)

159 chitlins

Posted by: toby928™ at March 29, 2011 07:21 AM (GTbGH)

160

This country does not have the collective political will to do the right thing about our impending financial doom. The matter is in the hands of politicians whose main concern is promising the moon to voters in order to be re-elected.

No, I'm afraid the whole thing will have to come crashing down first.

At that point, I will have a surprise for all the faux anarchist poseurs out there. I will show them what real anarchy looks like.

Posted by: Jones at March 29, 2011 07:21 AM (cUNcx)

161 Honor's Voice (out of print, I believe) by Douglas Wislon gives deep insight into Lincoln's character and how it was formed. Check your library or used books stores.

Posted by: Lincolntf at March 29, 2011 07:21 AM (xMT+4)

162 He sent non-lethal foodstuffs by ship, and informed the secessionists that it was only food and not arms or reinforcements, and defied them to deny "Food to hungry men".

Actually the history books I have read said he sent troops and arms as well. But what actually had more impact was before that when one part of the adm (Seward) kept telling the confederate peace commission that Lincoln was willing to listen to them to avoid war and Lincoln kept repeatedly rebuffing them.

Their opionion was that the entire Lincoln administration was comprised of dishonorable liars and crooks and that they were bent on war to force the South back into the union.Since Lincoln at the time was jailing thousands of people without trial or charges at the time they were correct. 

Posted by: Vic at March 29, 2011 07:22 AM (M9Ie6)

163
chitlins, whiskey, and skirt?



Posted by: Soothsayer3P0 at March 29, 2011 07:22 AM (uFokq)

164 Nearly all of this increase is due to higher fertility among Hispanics and immigration from Mexico, Central America, and South America. How exactly does the Republican party as it exists win an election in 2020? What about 2016? What about 2012? Because they tend to infest the inner cities of large metro areas, like fucking rats. Concentrating them in a relatively few states diminishes their impact in Congressional elections. Look at an electoral map by county. Look at a demographic map of the U.S. They'll stay in their fucking cesspools, because that is where the free shit is: housing, clinics, welfare agencies, public transportation, etc. If they were moving out to the rural or suburban areas, that would require a degree of self sufficiency and ambition. If they were self-sufficient, they wouldn't be fucking subhuman parasitic liberals. They'd be what I like to call "people.". They'd be us.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at March 29, 2011 07:23 AM (+61wI)

165 But what actually had more impact was before that when one part of the adm (Seward) kept telling the confederate peace commission that Lincoln was willing to listen to them to avoid war and Lincoln kept repeatedly rebuffing them.

Yep.  IIRC, Seward actually attempted, on his own authority, to divert the resupply of Sumter to Fort Pickens.  Lincoln slapped him down over that.

Posted by: toby928™ at March 29, 2011 07:24 AM (GTbGH)

166 Awesome!  A P-3C got to fire mavericks in the Gulf of Sidra at a Libyan ship.

Posted by: CDR M at March 29, 2011 07:24 AM (JSetw)

167 they were bent on war to force the South back into the union.

Keeping the South in the Union was their stated goal so it wasn't a secret or anything.  Whether through diplomacy and compromise, or war.

Posted by: toby928™ at March 29, 2011 07:26 AM (GTbGH)

168 As for Doom there is only two things that are going to stop all the proliferate spending by both Washington and the States. The preferable action would be to repeal the ill-advised 24th amendment and make the right to vote conditional on paying taxes. That would effectively kill the Democrat Party so that will never happen which will bring about the second solution.

The entire system will collapse on it own weight and chaos and anarchy will reign until a "leader for life" emerges.

Posted by: Vic at March 29, 2011 07:29 AM (M9Ie6)

169 His ego? Good lord, no wonder people are so confused about Lincoln.

Posted by: Lincolntf at March 29, 2011 12:02 PM (xMT+4)

As if Lincoln's personality was even relevant.  The issues were insoluble and war was inevitable.   The South had a legitimate constitutional argument defending an abominable institution which they wanted to expand elsewhere.  I can't believe anyone has to step up to defend Lincoln.    

Posted by: Beagle at March 29, 2011 07:29 AM (sOtz/)

170 GOLD!

I put my trust in GOLD, and you should too!

Posted by: Gordon Liddy at March 29, 2011 07:30 AM (JpFM9)

171 CDR M, Sweet. You know you wish that was you.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at March 29, 2011 07:31 AM (OW0nw)

172 What's to worry, we got the solution!

Posted by: Weimar Republic at March 29, 2011 07:31 AM (JpFM9)

173
Awesome!  A P-3C got to fire mavericks in the Gulf of Sidra at a Libyan ship.

Posted by: CDR M at March 29, 2011 12:24 PM (JSetw)

So Ghadaffy has flying ships?

Posted by: Ed Anger at March 29, 2011 07:32 AM (7+pP9)

174 CDR M, did they sink the ship? Is it going to need a new coat of paint and a shitload of screen doors?

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at March 29, 2011 07:33 AM (OW0nw)

175 Keeping the South in the Union was their stated goal so it wasn't a secret or anything.

Yes, but it was also common knowledge at the time among all the States that they did have the right to secede. In fact the NE has made a push in that direction first during the Hartford Convention over the war of 1812.

The powers in the North wanted to maintain the South in the union for two major reasons both of which were economic. One the South was paying almost all of the federal taxes (one of the major causes of animosity) and two the NE was terrified that with the South independent and without the huge tariffs that New Orleans and Charleston would get all of the foreign trade and their ports and industries would fail.

Posted by: Vic at March 29, 2011 07:33 AM (M9Ie6)

176 Sweet. You know you wish that was you.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at March 29, 2011 12:31 PM (OW0nw)

Hell yeah I wish I was in the seat for that!  Haven't seen the video yet.

Posted by: CDR M at March 29, 2011 07:34 AM (Mv/2X)

177 168 Awesome!  A P-3C got to fire mavericks in the Gulf of Sidra at a Libyan ship.

Awesome what maintaining a No-Fly Zone entails.  Pretty much you can do whatever you want!

Posted by: Kratos (Ghost of Sparta) at March 29, 2011 07:34 AM (9hSKh)

178 Monty, please just announce your candidacy for the Presidency already. What this country needs is a candidate running on a sensible platform of DOOM! I think.

Posted by: Stu-22 at March 29, 2011 07:35 AM (pLTLS)

179 Looks like The One is upping the anti with some new fire power.  They're not needed in Afghanistan that's for sure, snark, so lets bring them over to Libya were they can get some good live fire practice.  The pilots will get to  bunk down in Italy with some good chow, that's a plus.  I am thinking a Warthog and a Spooky or two will get Quacky's attention.

Over the weekend U.S. Air Force A-10 Thunderbolt aircraft, designed to provide battlefield support to friendly ground forces, flew attack missions for the first time in this conflict. The Pentagon also disclosed Monday that Air Force AC-130 gunships, low-flying aircraft armed with a 105mm howitzer and a 40mm cannon, had joined the battle

Posted by: Kemp at March 29, 2011 07:35 AM (JpFM9)

180 I feel cheated.  There was no 'Line of Death', that had to be crossed first.

Posted by: dogfish at March 29, 2011 07:36 AM (NuPNl)

181

We should have been backing out of the welfare state we foolishly created in the first place decades ago.

However, now we are really up fudge creek.  We can't just drop stuff, because our economy is so damn weak...and we can't just leave things the way they are, because our economy is so damn weak.  Not unless we want to risk a lot of social unrest and some generalized, possible really, really bad stuff.

Either we accept the fact that things are going to get worse and still go about backing out of the stupid things we put into place and propagated...and try to find a better way.  Or, we just sit back and watch the shtf.

The first would be nice; I'm reconciled to the latter though.

Posted by: unknown jane at March 29, 2011 07:38 AM (5/yRG)

Posted by: Dallaz ISD at March 29, 2011 07:39 AM (kb0wl)

183
Obama is going to end up obliterating Libya just so he keep his promise of no boots on the ground.

Which is fine with me for two reasons. It'll be fun to watch him and the Left spin it, and I don't want to shed a drop of American blood for the Libyans.


Posted by: Soothsayer3P0 at March 29, 2011 07:39 AM (uFokq)

184  Air Force AC-130 gunships, low-flying aircraft armed with a 105mm howitzer and a 40mm cannon, had joined the battle

Posted by: Kemp at March 29, 2011 12:35 PM (JpFM9)

Ive heard some nasty accounts of the aftermath of one of those.  Some boots on the ground from Vietnam said could have used a squeegee to clean up...absolute destruction and shreddage

Posted by: Red Shirt at March 29, 2011 07:39 AM (FIDMq)

185 175
Awesome! A P-3C got to fire mavericks in the Gulf of Sidra at a Libyan ship.

Posted by: CDR M at March 29, 2011 12:24 PM (JSetw)

So Ghadaffy has flying ships?

Posted by: Ed Anger at March 29, 2011 12:32 PM (7+pP9)

Well, he apparently already has Flying Tanks... and didn't even hire me! Bastard...

Posted by: Col. Alois Hammer at March 29, 2011 07:40 AM (NtXW4)

186 Tami, no baseball throw, but isn't he throwing out the tip off for the Kansas game in the final four? 

What, Kansas isn't in the final four?  WTF didn't they know Barry picked them to win?

Guess this calls for an Executive Order placing them in the final four five.

Posted by: Kemp at March 29, 2011 07:40 AM (JpFM9)

187 This morning's doom was kind of cheerful as far as doom goes. I didn't like it. I want my doom doomier.

Posted by: ParanoidAnxietyGirlInSeattle at March 29, 2011 07:41 AM (RZ8pf)

188
So Ghadaffy has flying ships?

Either that or "the rebels" are in a rowboat "protesting" the Kaddafi regime.


Posted by: Soothsayer3P0 at March 29, 2011 07:41 AM (uFokq)

189 176 CDR M, did they sink the ship? Is it going to need a new coat of paint and a shitload of screen doors?

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at March 29, 2011 12:33 PM (OW0nw)

The article did say that the Vittoria (Libyan ship) was rendered ineffective and was beached.  An A-10 took out one small boat and damaged another with it's 30 mike mike.

Posted by: CDR M at March 29, 2011 07:41 AM (cqZXM)

190 Over the weekend U.S. Air Force A-10 Thunderbolt aircraft, designed to provide battlefield support to friendly ground forces, flew attack missions for the first time in this conflict. The Pentagon also disclosed Monday that Air Force AC-130 gunships, low-flying aircraft armed with a 105mm howitzer and a 40mm cannon, had joined the battle

Posted by: Kemp at March 29, 2011 12:35 PM (JpFM9)

Yes, because we all know that P-3s, AC-130s and A-10s are Air Superiority Fighters, used to support the No Fly Zone!

Posted by: National Security Advisor at March 29, 2011 07:42 AM (NtXW4)

191 Portugal and Greece are no longer even B-pluses.

S.&P. Downgrades Portugal and Greece Again

Posted by: Kratos (Ghost of Sparta) at March 29, 2011 07:42 AM (9hSKh)

192 Well, I'm not feeling all that gloomy today.. so, I say horseshit!

We're going down the tubes here while we send hundreds of billions of dollars to fucking China and Saudi Arabia.  WTF?  And then we sit here crying in our fucking beers... boo-fucking-hoo.

All we need is the will, as a nation, to get ourselves outta this mess.  Cut spending?  Sure.. that's a given.  But let's think about the revenue side.. you boost that.. you put people back to work making things that Americans want to buy.. you start drilling oil like fucking crazy.  Tax revenues soar.  And I'm not opposed to some new taxes either.. tax financial transactions at a fraction of a cent each.. you know those transaction those pricks on Wall St make where they keep the "security" for like 11 seconds?

I tell ya.. I'm sick of this sad sack shit. Let's get off our asses and get to work.

Posted by: Chi-Town Jerry at March 29, 2011 07:43 AM (f9c2L)

193 122 Well they do have the story today down in Florida where the 17 year old daunted pistol whipped her mom and forced her to buy her a car. Surprise ! The mother did not want to press charges. Seems like this sweet kid had opportunity to go to an ivy league school and charges would mess that up.

Posted by: polynikes at March 29, 2011 11:51 AM (iRWGZ)

Great, another Ivy League sociopath.  Reminds me of...someone...can't quite put my finger on it...

Posted by: Insomniac at March 29, 2011 07:43 AM (v+QvA)

194 Bah. DOOM isn't really doomy enough without a DOOOOOM kitty, preferably one that looks like it's been though a wash cycle.

Posted by: joncelli at March 29, 2011 07:43 AM (RD7QR)

195 Another good source of real (written during Lincoln's lifetime or by people who knew him personally) information on Abe is his law partner/biographer William Herndon.  "Herndon's Lincoln, the True Story of a Great Life" is where to start, but the guy (Herndon) gave so many interviews and was quoted so widely you can find him in just about every Lincoln book.

Posted by: Lincolntf at March 29, 2011 07:45 AM (xMT+4)

196 DOOM! One lump or two, sir?

Posted by: BackwardsBoy at March 29, 2011 07:45 AM (d0Tfm)

197 "because we are the wealthiest and most powerful nation in the world, that this somehow insulates us from the more mundane realities that every other nation must deal with." A more sophisticated argument is that, as a sovereign issuer of a fiat currency that is also a reserve currency, the US federal government can't go broke. The usual rejoinder is that rising debt will lead to high inflation, which will make the currency increasingly worthless. So far, though, this isn't happening. Despite a big increase in the national debt since 2008, interest rates have remained low, and inflation (excepting oil prices) has also remained under control. Presumably some level of debt will trigger higher inflation and interest rates, but we aren't there yet. It's important to realize that federal debt equals private surplus. Zeroing out the debt is neither practical nor desirable. A certain level of government debt is essential to a growing economy. The question is, how much debt? The answer is not as clear as it might seem. But what about the PIIGS?! Well, as one writer puts it: "The Europeans are in a fundamentally different situation to the U.S. or Britain because of the currency issue. Spain does not have a sovereign currency. Ireland does not have a sovereign currency. This makes them users of currency and beholden to market liquidity." http://tinyurl.com/4hstecc

Posted by: sauropod at March 29, 2011 07:45 AM (zmwmc)

198 Some of his planes are taxiing down highways to get away!

That is why we need Warthogs that only fire air to ground missiles.

Yeah, that's it. No fly, No taxi zone!

Posted by: Da One at March 29, 2011 07:47 AM (JpFM9)

199  Air Force AC-130 gunships, low-flying aircraft armed with a 105mm howitzer and a 40mm cannon, had joined the battle

There is some great night scope video of an AC130 attacking a mosque complex with the howitzer and the 40mm on youtube.  Which I can't get here at work to link for you gouys, but you can probably search it out.

You can run, but you just die tired.

Posted by: toby928™ at March 29, 2011 07:47 AM (GTbGH)

200 The AC-130 is an all-weather, rough-field capable air-superiority fighter originally fielded in the late 1960s to counter the emerging threat of Middle Eastern jetpack-borne infantry.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at March 29, 2011 07:48 AM (TATbF)

201 I tell ya.. I'm sick of this sad sack shit. Let's get off our asses and get to work.

Posted by: Chi-Town Jerry at March 29, 2011 12:43 PM (f9c2L)

And economy is driven by the simple idea of taking raw materials, and turning them into finished goods, which are then consumed...

Problem is that our government no longer allows us our OWN Raw Materials... and so we buy those goods from foreign sources.

Rare Earths is a perfect example.  The US was the largest exporter of Rare Earths, until the Government shut down all the mines due to 'environmental' concerns... then we had to buy from Red China.

When your own Government stops the People from using their OWN resources, you have a problem which can only be fixed by changing said government (like Obamas defacto drilling embargo, which is STILL in place).

Posted by: National Security Advisor at March 29, 2011 07:49 AM (NtXW4)

202 Did anyone axe for some war pron, Spooky at work!

http://tinyurl.com/c59bsg

Posted by: Kemp at March 29, 2011 07:51 AM (JpFM9)

203 You know what else isn't destiny? A new thread.

Posted by: The Mega Indepedent at March 29, 2011 07:54 AM (AS/Dg)

204 I had a bit a good news this morning.

I have been saving money every month (and giving it to my dentist so I don't spend it) to get two root canals and two crowns.

My insurance only pays 50% and since they are front teeth, they are more expensive.  I've already used up most of my insurance when I slipped on a patch of ice and cracked a tooth in Jan.

Anyway, I go in today to start the work, knowing that I still have 3 weeks after 1st appt. to come up with the extra money I still owed, when my billing lady at the dentist tells me I'm paid in full.

I told her she made a mistake and she better check again because I still owe $250.  She said that my dentist told her I would argue with her, and to show her my bill.

My dentist, his assistant, etc., all agreed to waive their fee. 

How amazing is that?!

I argued that they shouldn't do that, but they held strong.  They said that they saw all the things I donated to their collection for a family of 6 that lost their home to a fire.

Man, it is awesome to experience kindness in this bleak Obama world.

I am on cloud nine today I tell ya

Posted by: momma at March 29, 2011 07:55 AM (penCf)

205

189 On top of all the global economic woes we have Iran exhorting the muz to get more violent globally...and then there are those global natural disasters.

Oh, and Justin Bieber?  Still alive and still making the news, now with even more of his tunes.

How's that?

Posted by: unknown jane at March 29, 2011 07:57 AM (5/yRG)

206

Here comes the pain!

Posted by: Carlito at March 29, 2011 07:58 AM (BXc/3)

207 Speaking of Lincoln, didn't the Emancipation Proclamation only free Southern slaves? (There were slaves in border states) and wasn't it thought at the time that the slaves would revolt and cause the South problems?

Wonder why that didn't happen, or that many Blacks fought for the South?

Posted by: Kemp at March 29, 2011 07:59 AM (JpFM9)

208 The conversion for propane or CNG is not complicated on the simpler engines.  Lots of cars do it after-market in Brazil -- some even have triple settings Ethanol, Gasoline, and CNG (or propane).  People switch based on cost and performance requirements.

Posted by: Jean at March 29, 2011 07:59 AM (WkuV6)

209

Good for you, Momma. Karma isn't always a bitch after all.

I had the pleasure of calling a son of one of my co-workers and telling him that I was giving him a free car the other day. Good kid, in the NG, taking some technical courses somewhere out of town and he has no car. Turns out that I'm being "gifted" with a car that's better than mine so I figured I'd pass the good fortune along. The kid is thrilled, as is everyone who's been helping him out with rides for a year or two. 

Posted by: Lincolntf at March 29, 2011 08:00 AM (xMT+4)

210

momma, you just made me tear up a little. How kind of you for your donations to the family who lost their home in the fire. And how kind of your dentist to waive his fees. It is nice to know there are sitll people out there with a strong moral compass.

Posted by: ParanoidAnxietyGirlInSeattle at March 29, 2011 08:00 AM (RZ8pf)

211

It is a well known fact that after the Ft. Sumpter attack Lincoln went on TV and stressed the importance of the attack on his efforts to preserve the union.  He also did a special on don't ask, don't tell on NPR I believe.

Posted by: Professor J Biden at March 29, 2011 08:01 AM (yQWNf)

212 205 You know what else isn't destiny? A new thread.

Posted by: The Mega Indepedent at March 29, 2011 12:54 PM (AS/Dg)

We do lunch till 2 PM, then it's siesta time.  We're Spanish so fuck off. See you around 3 PM.


Posted by: Ace's new co bloggers at March 29, 2011 08:01 AM (JpFM9)

213

Oh, and Justin Bieber?  Still alive and still making the news, now with even more of his tunes.

And he's dating Selena Gomez. Yep, that's some good DOOM.

Posted by: ParanoidAnxietyGirlInSeattle at March 29, 2011 08:02 AM (RZ8pf)

214 Posted by: Lincolntf at March 29, 2011 01:00 PM (xMT+4)

That's awesome.  I figure it all works out in the end.  If not in life, surly at the Pearly Gates, right?!

Posted by: momma at March 29, 2011 08:02 AM (penCf)

215 I am becoming addicted to the news of DOOM.  Not sure it thats good or bad.

Posted by: Guy Fawkes at March 29, 2011 08:04 AM (Z1jiu)

216

momma

 

That's how I figure it.

Posted by: Lincolntf at March 29, 2011 08:04 AM (xMT+4)

217 Today's evidence that we've chosen DOOM:
NATO commander: Signs of al-Qaida in Libyan rebels

Posted by: pitythefool at March 29, 2011 08:05 AM (BjQSh)

218

WAR COST: $600 MILLION, IN 6 DAYS...

this is going to adversely affect the hi speed rail initiative

Posted by: White House Office Of Communications at March 29, 2011 08:06 AM (cUNcx)

219 If you were a multimillionaire investor, or ran a sovereign wealth fund, where else are you going to invest?

Singapore, Canada, ...

Posted by: Jean at March 29, 2011 08:06 AM (WkuV6)

220 If you were a multimillionaire investor, or ran a sovereign wealth fund, where else are you going to invest?

Singapore, Canada, ...

Posted by: Jean at March 29, 2011 01:06 PM (WkuV6)

I'd add India to your list.

Posted by: Tami at March 29, 2011 08:08 AM (VuLos)

221 Wonder why that didn't happen, or that many Blacks fought for the South?

For a real answer to your question...

1) Most slaves weren't the abused picture everyone has from Roots.  Many, many more of them were more like the House Slave in Glory.  Even the ones who worked out all day in the fields were relatively well cared for and not treated especially harshly- especially by the standards of the time.  Slavery was seen by many as more of a form of permanent indentured servitude than it was Slavery.  Of course, they often overlooked that whole "owning another human being" part of it.

2) General Pat Cleburne convinced the Confederacy also to free their slaves- I've seen the letter, but basically he makes the point that if they're claiming not to be fighting FOR slavery, they really couldn't insist on forcing the institution to continue.  And that Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation would be a PR disaster if they didn't follow suit.

As with many of the soldiers in the South, Cleburne was much more concerned about the over-reach of Federal authority than he was about keeping slavery around.

Posted by: AllenG (Dedicated Tenther) at March 29, 2011 08:08 AM (8y9MW)

222 All these comments and I didn't see a B.O.N.E.D. (Brackets Ofeckless Needs Extra Debt)

The frickin dems think that a $20 billion dollar cut and nothing more is a good offer.

It sure seems this country has chosen doom.

Posted by: Guy Fawkes at March 29, 2011 08:11 AM (Z1jiu)

223 Posted by: ParanoidAnxietyGirlInSeattle at March 29, 2011 01:00 PM (RZ8pf)

I felt so badly for that family.  It could happen to anyone, and I always try to give when the people on the receiving end are trying. 

My son and daughter earned $3.oo each for doing odd jobs around the neighborhood (we didn't charge, we were just being nice, but my neighbors insisted on paying them something).  They went right home and gave it to my sick neighbor because she doesn't have insurance and needed heart medication (her husband drives a truck all week).

See, Obama can never destroy America, because we are America.

Posted by: momma at March 29, 2011 08:11 AM (penCf)

224
right now we have two groups of people with very diametrically-opposed visions of what America is

Yes. Sadly, one group believes America to be an unending gravy train of goodies. The other is providing for that gravy train of goodies.

For a voluntary solution to be agreed upon, the first lot has to give up their gravy train. The Book of Proverbs provides the most likely answer (30:15):

The leech has two daughters. ‘Give! Give!’ they cry.

As much as we give, it is never enough. So at some point the giving will stop, the solution will be imposed, and we'll just have to suck it up.

Posted by: I R A Darth Aggie © at March 29, 2011 08:11 AM (1hM1d)

225 Great stories momma and lincoln -- my story for the day: After 8 years of marriage, I have finally lost all operational control over the closets.  Might as well leave my suits at the cleaners.

Posted by: Jean at March 29, 2011 08:13 AM (WkuV6)

226 If you were a multimillionaire investor, or ran a sovereign wealth fund, where else are you going to invest?

Singapore, Canada, ...

Posted by: Jean at March 29, 2011 01:06 PM (WkuV6)

I'd add India to your list.

 

Japanese construction firms?

Posted by: White House Office Of Communications at March 29, 2011 08:13 AM (cUNcx)

227 Out damn sock!  Out, and be done with you, thou villainous hedge-born poltroon!

Posted by: Jones at March 29, 2011 08:14 AM (cUNcx)

228 Japanese construction firms?

At the rate they are working, they will have that mess cleaned up by mid-summer.

Posted by: Jean at March 29, 2011 08:15 AM (WkuV6)

229

#166

Yep. There is a reason why the Republicans did better in the House than in Senate elections. Toomey and Kirk barely won their states, and other states that should have swung didn't (e.g. Colorado, Nevada).

The Presdential election is built on state level elections, not the House elections that Republicans have an easier time winning in this environment. It will only get harder.

Posted by: Paper at March 29, 2011 08:15 AM (VoSja)

230 Assad meets all their criteria for intervention also.  Is Bam going to start another war?  And are the libs going to keep following their war-mongering Peace Prize winner?  Hell, is Bam going to start another war without Congressional approval, THEN go to Congress and ask for approval for the first one he started?  Or is he going to stick with the UN approval?

Bam is living in interesting times.


Posted by: FUBAR at March 29, 2011 08:16 AM (McG46)

231 227 Great stories momma and lincoln -- my story for the day: After 8 years of marriage, I have finally lost all operational control over the closets. Might as well leave my suits at the cleaners.

Posted by: Jean at March 29, 2011 01:13 PM (WkuV6)

LOL... Do what I did...

X was not interested in what I did in the Garage, so I started to build a BIG tool cabinet... and when she asked what I was doing? I told her it was for my clothes since I did not have room in the closets in the house anymore....

She got the hint...

Posted by: Romeo13 at March 29, 2011 08:19 AM (NtXW4)

232

 E Pluribus Unum requires work and dedication; it won't just happen all by itself. A house divided against itself cannot stand, and right now we have two groups of people with very diametrically-opposed visions of what America is, and what it will be in the years ahead.

That reads like an invitation to McCain-style aisle reaching. We clearly are a divided house, but a House United in the glory of socialism, or in the everso unsatisfying negotiated glory of compromise, cannot avoid debt-pocalypse.  And a house united in anti-socialism means total defeat for a large and power segment of the population and hence cannot be obtained through negotiation.

So, how do "we" avoid the collapse, if we are unwilling to force our socialist neighbors and friends to do it our way against their will? To my feeble way of thinking, avoiding the crash means saying goodbye (in a political sense) to the above referenced friends and neighbors. Do one last "reach across the aisle" for the road, divide up the china, wish them well, and redraw our borders and institutions.

Its a peaceful separation or a ride to Davy Jones' locker with the socialists, no?

Posted by: brobdingnagian at March 29, 2011 08:21 AM (K/USr)

233 "The reason I remain cautious but optimistic is because we do have the opportunity to change leadership every four years."

Never take this for granted,  This, too, can be taken away.

Posted by: Rayj at March 29, 2011 08:25 AM (2oRAd)

234 The real impediment to conversion is the cost of an "official" conversion. $12,000.00 per vehicle.

Meh. That's the cost of compliance with bullshit government regulation.

The real cost is a fraction of that, but as usual, the government artificially drives up costs and fucks everyone over.

Posted by: Warden at March 29, 2011 08:26 AM (fVIlG)

235

Well, the best thing might be to just let the shtf; certainly better than revisiting Ukraine in the 30s...come to think of it, mine will likely make out ok if it did (there are advantages to living with people who know how to scrounge and get by and knowing which of them is most likely trustworthy; there are big advantages to being the person with a unique skill set among people who know how to scrounge and get by).

Wasteland?  Ha, bring it.

Posted by: unknown jane at March 29, 2011 08:26 AM (5/yRG)

236 Today's evidence that we've chosen DOOM:
NATO commander: Signs of al-Qaida in Libyan rebels

Posted by: pitythefool at March 29, 2011 01:05 PM (BjQSh)

The Libyan rebels seem a lot like Obama to me--basically we don't know who they are or what they stand for.  May be that's why we are intervening there and not anywhere else!

Posted by: Hrothgar at March 29, 2011 08:29 AM (DCpHZ)

237 So that means I'm being boned by my lessers instead of my betters?
Kinda hurts the same hard to tell the difference.

Posted by: Buzzsaw at March 29, 2011 12:07 PM (tf9Ne)

Well... its the difference between gettin boned by lots of little dicks, or one big dick...

Posted by: Romeo13 at March 29, 2011 12:08 PM (NtXW4)


One of the founders said "I'd rather be ruled by 1 King ten-thousand miles away, then ten-thousand Kings one mile away! "

Posted by: DiogenesLamp at March 29, 2011 08:35 AM (/G5LI)

238

"His Officers had informed him of a plan to resupply the fort by sea, that would have prevented any hostilities from occurring, but he intentionally provoked the hostilities by sending word that a supply convoy was being sent to resupply the fort, more or less daring them to attack it. "

 

Citre please.

Posted by: Lincolntf at March 29, 2011 12:12 PM (xMT+4)


Sorry. Don't have one any more. Haven't studied this stuff in years. I just remember what I learned WHEN I was studying it.

Posted by: DiogenesLamp at March 29, 2011 08:39 AM (/G5LI)

239 Posted by: Hrothgar at March 29, 2011 01:29 PM (DCpHZ)

did you hear rush say some top military honcho testified to congress that they are there, with the rebels and then hillary comes out in England and says "we have no evidence" that the rebels are with al k da.

I mean you seriously can't make this stuff up.

Posted by: curious at March 29, 2011 08:41 AM (k1rwm)

240

And I really do like to see the sources, not because I reject critiques of Abe, but because I've read about a billion Lincoln books and it's hard to remember which "facts" are actually facts and which ones are historical revision and just plain myths.

Posted by: Lincolntf at March 29, 2011 12:15 PM (xMT+4)


And that could also be true. Nowadays people want to rewrite the past to suit them, but THAT particular bit of information I recall getting from my friend the History Major (who happens to be Black) when he was telling me how cleverly Lincoln manipulated the rubes into attacking Ft. Sumter.

I also recall seeing it elsewhere when I later researched it. 

Posted by: DiogenesLamp at March 29, 2011 08:42 AM (/G5LI)

241 The Museum of the Great plains is an official repository of Civil war documents, so I could probably research this better than most, but it is not something high on my list of priority. Whatever the cause, the situation we find ourselves in now needs to be addressed in the here and now.

Posted by: DiogenesLamp at March 29, 2011 08:44 AM (/G5LI)

242 Vic you're rewriting history. Lincoln did not suspend Habeus Corpus until after the attack on Ft Sumpter.

Posted by: polynikes at March 29, 2011 08:44 AM (iRWGZ)

243 Posted by: Jean at March 29, 2011 01:15 PM (WkuV6)

they don't have unions and everyone is cranking stuff out at full capacity.  I was told the architects and engineers are working to make things better able to withstand earthquakes and tsunamis of a greater magnitude than the one they just got and that the road workers and builders are proud to implement their upgrades and fixes quickly.   It is a model of team.   We study team building here.  But it can't seem to work when applied.

Posted by: curious at March 29, 2011 08:44 AM (k1rwm)

244 Keeping the South in the Union was their stated goal so it wasn't a secret or anything.  Whether through diplomacy and compromise, or war.

Posted by: toby928™ at March 29, 2011 12:26 PM (GTbGH)


Keeping the colonies under British rule was the stated goal of His Majesty King George III.

Same shit different day.

Posted by: DiogenesLamp at March 29, 2011 08:48 AM (/G5LI)

245 I mean you seriously can't make this stuff up.

Posted by: curious at March 29, 2011 01:41 PM (k1rwm) 

Like SecDef Gates clearly stating that the US has is NOT of vital national interest to the United States, (but we can p**s away a 100 million $ a day on an adventure that is designed to give ) some street cred).


Posted by: Hrothgar at March 29, 2011 08:50 AM (DCpHZ)

246

Like SecDef Gates clearly stating that the US has is NOT of vital national interest to the United States, (but we can p**s away a 100 million $ a day on an adventure that is designed to give ) some street cred).


Posted by: Hrothgar at March 29, 2011 01:50 PM (DCpHZ)

And putting it on our KIDS Credit Card...

Posted by: Romeo13 at March 29, 2011 08:52 AM (NtXW4)

247 Oops! What the keyboard screwed up was
Like SecDef Gates clearly stating that the US has NO  vital national interest in Libya, (but we can p**s away a 100 million $ a day on an adventure that is designed to give ) some street cred).

Posted by: Hrothgar at March 29, 2011 08:53 AM (DCpHZ)

248

And putting it on our KIDS Credit Card...

Posted by: Romeo13 at March 29, 2011 01:52 PM (NtXW4)

that, along with a LOT of other bribes, kickbacks, and assorted payoffs to the "right" people.

Posted by: Hrothgar at March 29, 2011 08:54 AM (DCpHZ)

249 245 Vic you're rewriting history. Lincoln did not suspend Habeus Corpus until after the attack on Ft Sumpter.

Posted by: polynikes at March 29, 2011 01:44 PM (iRWGZ)


Correct. The attack was used as justification to implement all sorts of dictatorial acts.

Posted by: DiogenesLamp at March 29, 2011 08:57 AM (/G5LI)

250
Man, it is awesome to experience kindness in this bleak Obama world.

You cast your bread on the waters, momma, and it came back to you, as promised.

Posted by: toby928™ at March 29, 2011 09:00 AM (GTbGH)

251

Well, Diogenes, if your only source of info. is some guy you used to know, then maybe you shouldn't be so sure of yourself. There is no shortage of contemporaneous info. from the Lincoln era so there is really no reason to rely on half-remembered hearsay if you really care about the issues.

I (try to) avoid ever making blanket statements about Abe because it's impossible to know what he said/wrote/did for every day of his life, but one can certainly draw conclusions from the available info.

Posted by: Lincolntf at March 29, 2011 09:09 AM (xMT+4)

252

Keeping the colonies under British rule was the stated goal of His Majesty King George III.  Same shit different day.


Yep.  In the end, might makes right, and the victors write the history.

Ought and is have barely a nodding acquaintance.

Posted by: toby928™ at March 29, 2011 09:13 AM (GTbGH)

253 Vic you're rewriting history. Lincoln did not suspend Habeus Corpus until after the attack on Ft Sumpter. Posted by: polynikes at March 29, 2011 01:44 PM (iRWGZ)

My point was not the "order" in which it occurred, although they are so close together it is virtually immaterial. My point was that after the failure of the peace commission and the duplicity of Seward and Lincoln the whole administration was viewed as dishonorable liars. The arrests that occured were just one more example of that.

Posted by: Vic at March 29, 2011 09:17 AM (M9Ie6)

254

Well, Diogenes, if your only source of info. is some guy you used to know, then maybe you shouldn't be so sure of yourself. There is no shortage of contemporaneous info. from the Lincoln era so there is really no reason to rely on half-remembered hearsay if you really care about the issues.

I (try to) avoid ever making blanket statements about Abe because it's impossible to know what he said/wrote/did for every day of his life, but one can certainly draw conclusions from the available info.

Posted by: Lincolntf at March 29, 2011 02:09 PM (xMT+4)


It is good enough to convince me, but I wouldn't blame you for not being convinced, I wouldn't be either. The difference is the fellow who told it to me was a good and dear friend, and he went on for hours (apparently having just learned it.) about how CLEVER Lincoln was in manipulating his enemies.

He claims that Lincoln was so sure of his plan that he sent word to the commander of the fort to expect to be attacked, with orders to hold the fort for one day, taking all reasonable precautions to guard against loss of life, then surrender the fort after one day.


Funny thing was, the only casualties which occurred were the result of the surrender ceremony. (a cannon blew up.)


Posted by: DiogenesLamp at March 29, 2011 09:23 AM (/G5LI)

255 I'll do a scan of my resources for Sumter-specific information. Hopefully within the next few days I'll be able to have evidence one way or another. If your friend was right I should probably be able to find it. The problem with so much Lincoln history is that billions of publishing dollars have been spent on the subject and every single author needed something "new" to get his slice of the pie. Leads to lots of Zinn-isms.

Posted by: Lincolntf at March 29, 2011 09:33 AM (xMT+4)

256 The "Howard-Zinning" of Lincoln began within hours of his death.

Posted by: Vic at March 29, 2011 09:45 AM (M9Ie6)

257

Governments can't go out of business?

Marie Antoinette was unavailable for comment.

Posted by: KB at March 29, 2011 10:10 AM (YeiuA)

258

It's depressing that no one, not even Scott Walker, is talking about actually cutting govt pensions and govt. salaries at the state, federal or city/county levels, or raising the retirement age of govt pension recipients to match that of social security. We've got tons of govt employees who can retire young in their 40's and 50's with full pension benefits, usually 70% - 90% of their highest years salary based on their overpaid salaries.. starting the day they retire. It's a marxist transfer of wealth scheme in which non-govt workers are being forced to pay for these lavish gold-plated pension retirements given to govt. workers.. Worse, the unfunded pension liabilities are off-budget. It would be one thing if govt workers were paid 30% less than their private sector counterparts rather than more than private sector counterparts as is the case now. Or if they had to wait until age 62 or 65 to begin collecting their pensions instead of receiving full pension retirement benefits starting in their 40's or 50's. But it's the opposite - politicians raise the salaries of workers way beyond what they're worth, and up until very recently, kept sweetening their pensions to an extreme level. Cutting pensions and salaries is NEVER suggested as a possible solution to budget shortcomings. They fire new hires working on the front lines while refusing to cut the fat pig pensions and salaries.

Here in Houston, you'd be hard pressed to find a HISD school principal paid under $100,000/yr for a 9 or 10 month work year (some paid close to $150k/yr), and that doesn't include the lavish pension and health benefits which no one in the private sector receives, or their annual ASPIRE bonuses in which 88% of those eligible get bonuses with an average of over $3k bonus for teachers each year and average $6k bonus for principals. The average HISD principal is paid equal to, and in some case MORE than the mechanical engineering managers or structural engineering manager at a multi-national companies like Fluor or Bechtel in which the the enginering mgr is expected to manage 100+ engineers and designers plus deal with clients.. with no summer breaks like school principals. Payrolls for govt workers has spiraled way, way out of control. Cuts must be made there just like in the private sector.

Posted by: Mook at March 29, 2011 12:16 PM (ue7R1)

Posted by: jack at March 29, 2011 08:50 PM (wQj1+)

260 Nice post,the day is so beautiful~

Posted by: USA top sellings at March 31, 2011 11:05 PM (v1AgO)

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