April 29, 2011

A Response To One Birther
— Ace

Over here. I keep seeing this guy cited authoritatively as an expert on the long form's falsity. He's an expert on Adobe photoshop and imagery analysis because he says so.

Now, "TechDude" and the other guy who claimed the original COLB was fake also swore they were experts, too, and every single thing they said, even the most basic stuff, turned out to be 100% false. Like saying the COLB should have a signature (it actually should be on the BACK of the document-- where it actually was), and a stamp (also on the back), and a watermark (zoom in, hoss, it's got that too).

So every single thing these experts said turned out to be 100% horseshit. Didn't stop them from further "investigation" into the matter, of course.

But that was then, this is now.

We have new "experts" telling us pretty much the same crap TechDude did three years ago.

So let's believe these guys. At least, they haven't been proven to be full of shit yet.

Let's skip past the beginning of MarketTicker's analysis and focus on a statement he makes, the reasonableness or unreasonableness of which can be easily determined without any of the "expertise" he claims for himself.


But let's look at why Denninger now thinks that might be real -- what he thinks is an odd "coincidence" -- that the time of birth (and now the certification dates) on the Kenyan punking match the ones on the long form?

Here is his cached, original version of the post. The version before he began rewriting it to edit out laughable errors once people had pointed them out.

Other curiosities include the fact that the time of birth is exactly the same on the (now-discredited – or is it?) Kenyan birth certificate that has been floating around the Internet. How did a purely fraudulent document in a foreign nation happen to wind up with the exact same time of birth as the alleged "real" certificate – if Hawaii never released that information until now?

First of all, let's just note that the "Kenyan birth certificate" appears fake. (Note: See correction at post's end.)

Is it a strange "coincidence" that the time of birth on the Long Form should match, precisely, the 7:24 time of birth on the Kenyan hoax? Really?

And does that odd coincidence tend to suggest the Kenyan hoax was real?

Really?

The short-form COLB which has been available on-line for coming on three years always showed the time of birth as 7:24.

So you tell me -- is this coincidence, suggesting an obvious hoax is real, or is this just the guy who made the hoax copying data from the COLB available online?

As to the next claim (which I think was added to cover up his previous illogic) that the COLB doesn't show the "certification dates" -- well, I see rather plainly an August 8, 1961 date of registration on the short form. Also long available.

So you tell me: If this guy takes a strange "coincidence," which is not a coincidence at all, but rather just a hoaxster copying a time of birth from a publicly available document, proves that hoax is actually genuine --

How much should I trust his claim of expertise in the field of document authentication and the conclusions he derives from that expertise?

Tell me.

Because it seems to me, based on his bewilderment at the "coincidence" of a forgery matching the 7:24 time of birth that has been well known for almost three years, that he is not capable of considering even the most basic alternate possibilities before rushing headlong to his desired, traffic-sucking conclusion that the Long Form is fake (and, bizarrely, the confessed spoof "Kenyan Birth Certificate" is real).

You tell me. How much credence shall I place in this guy's self-asserted expertise?

Credibility counts.

And those who piss it away on lies and foolishness and rathole fantasias won't have it when they need it later.


Update/Rewritten: This post got complicated because the post I meant to respond to seemed to change before my eyes.

Yes, Market Ticker began re-writing his post to avoid making the obvious stupid errors I was ripping him for. But here is the cached, original version of the post. The one he had written before he realized I was calling him out.

Other curiosities include the fact that the time of birth is exactly the same on the (now-discredited – or is it?) Kenyan birth certificate that has been floating around the Internet. How did a purely fraudulent document in a foreign nation happen to wind up with the exact same time of birth as the alleged "real" certificate – if Hawaii never released that information until now?

As I suspected, when he saw I was pointing out the gaping hole in this illogic he changed the post, to claim he always knew the time of birth was always well-known, and adding in that he didn't see how the "certification dates" could have been known.

So what do we have? Well now we have someone saying incredibly stupid, ignorant shit, not even doing the most basic research into this or thinking about any alternate possibility besides "the Long Form is FAKE!"

And then, when caught being a perfect jackass, he stealth-edits, without any acknowledgement of a correction or rewriting, to try to cover up his absurd errors.

Here's what he got wrong:

1. Everything he thought.

2. Everything he wrote.

3. Everything he re-wrote in a futile attempt to hide his embarrassing errors on this score.

But oh, by all means, Let's follow this man to the Gates of Hell. He seems to know what he's talking about.

Whatever.

Are we smarter than this? Or are we really this dumb?

Are we this credulous? Are we this stubborn? Are we this impervious to logic and fact, preferring our cherished delusions over the hard reality of the waking world?

In short -- are we everything the liberals say we are?

I didn't think we were.

I am now wondering, however.

I have learned two uncontestable facts from the Birth Certificate Conspiracy Theory Saga:

1. There is a sucker born every minute.

2. Barack Hussein Obama was born in Honolulu, Hawaii, on August 4th, 1961.

And I learned a corollary:

For every person who goes to market seeking to purchase snake-oil and magic geans, there is at least one person who will set up a stand and agree to sell him such products.


Correction: I retract the claim that he began stealth-editing only when I caught him.

He definitely stealth-edited his egregious mistake -- witness the cached version -- but he may have done that far earlier, when one of his commenters pointed out how dumb his claim was.

Which leaves me wondering -- how is it I *read* his original not-stealth-edited version before he corrected it?

It could be that he was stealth-editing in response to his commenters pointing out his errors just as I was reading his post.

Or it could be I actually misread his post -- but, oddly enough, the way I misread it (and then remembered it) was exactly right as far as the previous, unedited version.

Weird coincidence that would be, huh?

Well, not really. See, if you want to catch someone in an error, you just might actually make an error in finding an error. As Market Ticker did.

Maybe I did the same thing... but got lucky, because my misreading was actually, by coincidence, actually congruent with his previous version of the post.

That is, maybe I misread but just happened to misread in such a way that I correctly figured out what he'd originally written, before he started adding in "Oh of course I know the date was 'out there' despite the fact my whole argument is premised on my ignorance of that."

The reason he might not have known any of this is that he's apparently not a Birther and hasn't been following this stuff. (Commenters tell me.) Apparently he just made the very-inadvisable decision to jump on the Birther train after it had collided hard with reality.

Ah well. Bad timing.

Anyway, there is an old saying, "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."

Please, please, please... can we honor the heritage of our 18th Century Enlightenment forebearers and begin honoring their commitment to reasoned propositions like that?

And stop making outlandish claims based upon nothing but "I think the font in that four looks 'hinky'" and "this guy on the internet told me it was fake"?


Correction 2: I got two "Kenyan Birth Certificates" muddled. I thought there was only one forged Kenyan Birth Certificate. No, turns out there were too; the first one the Birther Emeritus Philip Berg seized upon, and the second one, slightly better, that Orly Taitz seized upon.

One, which I thought was the only fake birth certificate, is not being referred to by Market Ticker. That one is an admitted fake. The hoaxster confessed to that one.

The one he's referring to is not an admitted fake. Just an apparent fake.

Sorry for getting the two fakes confused -- the confessed fake Philip Berg submitted vs. the apparent fake Orly Taitz began peddling.

However, my mistake aside, it doesn't change the fact here that part of Market Ticker's reason for thinking this second-chance-let's-get-it-right-this-time-forgery is real is that it contains the time of Obama's birth -- something he alleges was unknown until the long form was released.

It wasn't unknown; it was known, and part of Birther lore, for years. It was listed on Obama's COLB, his short form, the one first released way back in the summer of 2008.

Thanks to Rip for pointing this error out. I have rewritten the part of the post dealing with this for clarity and readability -- if I included this correction in the post (as I just attempted to), it would be difficult to read.

But here's notice of my error -- yes, I did think there was only one "Kenyan Birth Certificate," and I erroneously thought then that Market Ticker must be referring to that forgery, the admitted one.

But there are two, the original, and then the second attempt at forgery.

Posted by: Ace at 11:59 AM | Comments (585)
Post contains 1715 words, total size 12 kb.

1

Credibility counts.

And those who piss it away on lies and stupidity won't have it when they need it later.

You could just as easily be referring to Obie...

Posted by: Blacque Jacques Shellacque at April 29, 2011 12:01 PM (Kd7IW)

2 I thought we were done with this. Lets talk about the NFL draft. Shoosh. We did our victory lap now lets sharpen our spears for the next hunt.

Posted by: Goober at April 29, 2011 12:02 PM (Q5+Og)

3 F the COLB.

IMO this topic is even LESS interesting than it was before the thing was released.

Might as well try to persuade a truther than fire CAN melt steel.

Again, let's see Obama's college transcripts (just to prove how brilliant of an academician he really is).

 

Posted by: Generic Republican candidate at April 29, 2011 12:06 PM (PwGfd)

4 Isn't Sparky eating BC pudding now and not watching a spaceship take off? I bet he is hearing it from Moochelle about no invite to the royal wedding. Can you imagine how steamed she must be sitting around a launch site in FL with a bunch of rocket scientists that can't get it up while she could have been showing off her new boob belt to the Queen. I actually feel sorry for Sparky.

Posted by: Goober at April 29, 2011 12:06 PM (Q5+Og)

5 More context is called for, I think.

I've been reading Denninger for a long time, and he paid little or no attention to the birther issue before this certificate came out. He does get rather passionate about what he perceives as being fed BS (read his Foreclosuregate and Fed stuff, which is much more of his content, for a fair sample).

A couple of other accounts I've read suggest the document is such an obvious and amateurish forgery that it's just out there to keep people fighting over it (an Alinsky play, in other words). I'm not equipped to evaluate that judgment, but pass it along for consideration.

Posted by: Ken at April 29, 2011 12:06 PM (hBOZg)

6
Katherine's dress was just like my wedding dress, especially the breast up-lifters.

Posted by: Barney Frank, D-Masshole at April 29, 2011 12:07 PM (ndqJC)

7 >>A couple of other accounts I've read suggest the document is such an obvious and amateurish forgery that it's just out there to keep people fighting over it (an Alinsky play, in other words). I'm not equipped to evaluate that judgment, but pass it along for consideration.


Sounds like pure BS to me.

Why on earth would Obama deliberately discredit himself by releasing an obvious fake?

Makes no sense.

If he wanted people to keep fighting over it, he could have simply kept withholding it.

Posted by: looking closely at April 29, 2011 12:09 PM (6Q9g2)

8 I think I'd rather spend my time speculating about scenarios involving all three of Winona, Ava and the redheaded mining babe from Justified.

Posted by: Waterhouse at April 29, 2011 12:09 PM (Hiaja)

9

"6 Katherine's dress was just like my wedding dress, especially the breast up-lifters."

 

Do you think she does the tuck under?

Posted by: Goober at April 29, 2011 12:09 PM (Q5+Og)

10 I still cannot get any explanation for "Ukulele". Anyone?

Posted by: Rebar at April 29, 2011 12:11 PM (uPpYX)

11 As far as I can tell, Denninger's core competency seems to be the loud, strenuous, detailed assertion of whatever he happens to be loudly, strenuously asserting.

In other words:  Born To Blog.

(I also think he's basically right about the necessity rounding up a passel of big bank execs (and guv'ment bootlickers) and frogmarching them all off to the Big House for Crimes Against The Republic, but your mileage may vary . . .)

Posted by: filbert at April 29, 2011 12:11 PM (smvTK)

12

There is something strange about Obama needing to get a new BC to show, instead of just showing the one that everybody has, holds dear, and routinely uses throughout life. Also, why does the stamp say abstract? Doesn't that right there mean it isn't a full long form? And why is there no raised stamp like the other BC's you see? I don't buy a lot of the conspiracy stuff but those things do seem a little bit off. I think we will all know if the thing is legit if he offers it up to some state for examination to appear on a ballot. I think we can all agree that if he fights doing that, and relies on the "its on the internet" defense, well that should raise flags for a lot of people.

Posted by: joefrog at April 29, 2011 12:11 PM (vKUhG)

13 So Ace, do you or don't you believe that this is the real birth certificate?  You seem a bit wishy-washy on the whole topic.

Posted by: Hedgehog at April 29, 2011 12:12 PM (Rn2kl)

14 to keep people fighting over it

I tend to agree.  Plus it would be racist for any Secretary of State to question it should any of the states pass legislation regarding candidate eligibility.

Posted by: Bob Saget at April 29, 2011 12:12 PM (F/4zf)

15 Why doesn't he just release the placenta?

Posted by: The Donald at April 29, 2011 12:13 PM (YZISw)

16 11 I still cannot get any explanation for "Ukulele". Anyone?

Posted by: Rebar at April 29, 2011 05:11 PM (uPpYX)

Can anyone else show a birth certificate in 1961 in that hospital signed by a small musical instrument?

Posted by: Hedgehog at April 29, 2011 12:13 PM (Rn2kl)

17 He's a total retard. The argument he makes about "color scanning" is invalid because he doesn't understand how printing...the old fashioned type...is done. The Obama form is black print on a color background, just like the serial numbers on a dollar bill are done.  What he is looking at, at NRO, is three color photo-offset printing.  His argument actually _supports_ the document being real.

Posted by: Quilly Mammoth at April 29, 2011 12:14 PM (RJWyR)

18 I am starting a band for the sole purpose of naming it "Rathole Fantasias."

Posted by: Clownballoon at April 29, 2011 12:14 PM (uJK1E)

19 Oh and I love pudding. Although I just had a big bowl of ice cream with dry roasted peanuts and chocolate syrup. Not many Ewoks happier than this guy right here. Had a crisp, refreshing Mtn Dew with it too. Suck on that Moochelle! Healthy living baby!

Posted by: joefrog at April 29, 2011 12:14 PM (vKUhG)

20 Logically, a person's past history has no bearing on the truth or falsity of a statement, therefore you shouldn't discount out of hand whatever gimcrack notion I am about to spout forth.

Posted by: Fuckups Everywhere Attemping "Critical Thinking" at April 29, 2011 12:15 PM (JVEmw)

21 Ace: "Credibility counts.

And those who piss it away on lies and foolishness and rathole fantasias won't have it when they need it later."

Heh. Now let's all get back to admiring the Emperor's clothes.

Posted by: The MBM at April 29, 2011 12:15 PM (RUDDk)

22 Mark Steyn was hosting Rush's show today and he had the best dismantling of the birther movement i have ever heard. these guys are getting on my nerves.

Posted by: Bannor at April 29, 2011 12:15 PM (LfydK)

23

EF Lavender [signatory on the "Kenyan Birth Certificate"] is a laundry detergent.

Do we live in an era when those who share names with laundry detergents automatically lack credibility? Is this all you examine?

It seems this Lavender fellow just might turn the tide against Obama.

Posted by: T. Woolite Snuggle, Esq. at April 29, 2011 12:15 PM (uUo97)

24

15

Oklahoma passed their bill yesterday.

Posted by: Rebar at April 29, 2011 12:16 PM (uPpYX)

25 I'm going to crunch some figs just to annoy EOJ. Crunch, Crunch, Crunch. With water apes I going to crunch figs. Your momma crunches figs.

Posted by: Goober at April 29, 2011 12:16 PM (Q5+Og)

26 Karl is not a birther.  Referring to him as such is disingenuous at best.

All Karl has done is prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the LFBC posted on the WH.gov site, which was purported to be a certified photocopy (read: scan) by both those in Obama's Administration as well as the Secretary of Health for HI,  has rather been created out of whole cloth.  It is most certainly NOT a scan.

Obama and his goons have claimed one things.  Science tells us otherwise.

The question of citizenship aside, this document is most certainly NOT what they say it is.  That's called lying.  And lying to cover something up, is called obstruction of justice.

If you're OK with this type of behavior from your "president" then move along...nothing to see here.  Otherwise, let that sink in a little before you get back to us.

Posted by: LC at April 29, 2011 12:17 PM (Qiw1k)

27

Forgot to mention, the new BC is probably viewed at the same level as Obama is. If you think he is a joke, then of course you are going to believe this thing is a joke too. It makes sense.

Posted by: joefrog at April 29, 2011 12:18 PM (vKUhG)

28 The scan the white house used was tampered with. I don't think it's a forgery as the info on it and the AP scan looks the same, but it was a stupid thing for them to do. They should've just posted a scan/digital photograph of the copies they received and leave it at that. Instead, they moved all the text and tables onto a pretty green background, presumably to make it look authenticish, which had the unforseen side-effect of giving birthers enough leeway to scream "frogery".

Posted by: Johnny at April 29, 2011 12:19 PM (FYwGn)

29 I love the whole birther thing, not because I believe, but because whatever is a hassle or pain for The JFE makes me happy. I mean happy like steak and BJ Day.

Posted by: Sgt. Fury at April 29, 2011 12:19 PM (u2k3g)

30 Ok, glad the birth certificate is solved. Hows about we ask some more interesting questions about Barky's past that are sure to make him squirm.

To start, how were you able to backpack around Poch-ee-stahn in 1981 when the State Department banned US citizens from going there? Did you get special permission? Did you sneak in through a bordering nation? Did you use an Indonesian passport? And to follow-up, how the hell did a 40-something year old guy write two autobiographies and completely forget said backpacking trip through a civil war torn nation?

Posted by: mugiwara at April 29, 2011 12:20 PM (KI/Ch)

31

Mombasa belonged to Zanzibar when Obama was born, not Kenya.

 

I think it's spelled 'Thanthibar'.

- **JazzHands**-

Posted by: Julien Assange at April 29, 2011 12:20 PM (jyGn7)

32 Nice work, Ace.

Posted by: Caiwyn at April 29, 2011 12:20 PM (ttktr)

33

Now let's all get back to admiring the Emperor's clothes.

His clothes are so clean! They smell nice, too.

Posted by: Dash Downy at April 29, 2011 12:20 PM (uUo97)

34 Let me take a look at it.

Posted by: Dan Rather at April 29, 2011 12:20 PM (MT+0i)

35 I am still crunching figs with the water apes in a blue lagoon.

Posted by: Goober at April 29, 2011 12:20 PM (Q5+Og)

36 Unleash the hounds !

Posted by: Jackhole at April 29, 2011 12:21 PM (+qHxi)

37 I still think that the more salient point we should consider before we all get a minor in forensic document evaluation is of what real use is the knowledge we seek.

As far as I can see no matter what the answer we get the knowledge is completely useless.

One of two things must be true. (=> which implies)
1. The BC isn't forged => We are pissing up a rope.

2. The BC is forged. => BO is okay with making forgeries. => IF this really were to go anywhere BO would just make a better forgery and claim all anomalies were a result of digitization techniques used to put the original online. We would look like A-holes, distract the debate, but but but we would conclusively know that BO is willing to liecheatandsteal to win.

But we already know that with 99.99% certainty anyway.

So before we get into forensics... CAN ANYONE EXPLAIN WHY I SHOULD CARE?


Posted by: MikeTheMoose at April 29, 2011 12:21 PM (0q2P7)

38

Hi Ace,

 

I am alleging no conspiracy and I do not assert that the information on the bc is false. However, I state with absolute certainty that that pdf was clearly doctored in Photoshop and in Illustrator, which I’m pretty sure no one has denied. This fact is easily established in the Illustrator’s Layers palate and Illustrator’s Actions palate, where you can see the doc was created in Photoshop and then exported to Illustrator, where the graphic artist performed 21 actions on the image (most of them benign). This is not deniable.

 

A second huge tell on this doc can easily be seen by an the naked eye of amateurs and professionals alike. Simply magnify the doc 500 times or more and you’ll see that while the green background completely blurs out, the text remains perfectly legible and not blurred at all. This is because the graphic artist used a bitmap, most likely well above 600 dpi, for his text layer, whereas his background was probably a simple scan at 300 dpi, creating the obvious mix-match. If the whole doc was scanned at once, then the whole doc would look identical at every magnification. This, of course, is not the case.

Again, I do not assert that the document contains false content. However, I am drop-dead certain it is not a clean flatbed scan. It has been significantly modified in Photoshop and Illustrator, plain and simple.

If you want to go conspiracy, then the best argument, at least for starters, is that this doc’s name is post-fixed “01,” which generally means it’s the second mock-up in a potential series of mock-ups — with no number generally being assigned to the first mock-up.

Anyhoo, I have 12 years experience in desktop publishing and am very familiar with both Photoshop and Illustrator, owning Adobe CS since its inception.

Posted by: CTN at April 29, 2011 12:23 PM (J+Ksi)

39 I for one don't believe it was Obama on the "Apollo 14 mission." The guy in the fake spacesuit actually hit the golf ball, and Obama isn't that good. Or was the ball inserted with digital technology? And how did Obama set up a fake moon landing when he was under TEN YEARS OLD!!! I'm only asking questions.

Posted by: George Orwell at April 29, 2011 12:23 PM (ZkHkm)

40

Now let's all get back to admiring the Emperor's clothes.

His clothes are so clean! They smell nice, too.

Look at the crease!

Posted by: David Brooks at April 29, 2011 12:23 PM (/U/Mr)

41 Do I need to dig out the 'logical fallacies for rent' sock. again?

Posted by: garrett at April 29, 2011 12:24 PM (jyGn7)

42 I heard Steyn's rant also, and knowing what I know about the NBC discussion, I came away thorougly unimpressed. I normally absolutely love the guy, but I think he wiffed badly on this one, and his foreign roots seemed to show. I think he is still Canadian, but lives in New Hampshire, and not sure about his children. It may be that they are American, don't really know, but if the traditional view of NBC held, they would not be eligible for the office of President. And that is what he is so angry about.

Posted by: joefrog at April 29, 2011 12:24 PM (vKUhG)

43 The question we need to be constantly asking Obama is not:

Where were you born, really really?

but

WHAT THE FUCK DO YOU THINK YOU'RE DOING TO OUR COUNTRY, YOU STUPID POMPOUS ARROGANT DUMBSHIT????

Hmm.  Perhaps that might fail the Krugman Civility Test . . .

Posted by: filbert at April 29, 2011 12:25 PM (smvTK)

44 11 I still cannot get any explanation for "Ukulele". Anyone?
____________

The same signature is on the Coats birth certificate, another one that's been being waved around by birthers for a while.

Posted by: Anachronda at April 29, 2011 12:25 PM (6fER6)

45 I keep thinking of that dude in the movie "The Abyss." "You think everything is a conspiracy." "Everything is!"

Posted by: George Orwell at April 29, 2011 12:26 PM (ZkHkm)

46

Seems to me like the only possible avenue left, as far as attempting to prove a lack of qualifications, would be to prove that he had become a citizen of another country, and given up his US citizenship.

While it might be possible that maybe he had some reason to want to claim Indonesian or Kenyan citizenship, I'm not holding my breath, and I haven't heard any actual evidence to that effect.

I'm not sure how any sort of dual citizenship status would figure in, but if someone were to find that out, it would at least turn off some voters.

Posted by: Optimizer at April 29, 2011 12:26 PM (F56VB)

47 So before we get into forensics... CAN ANYONE EXPLAIN WHY I SHOULD CARE?

Bedtime story for your grandchildren?

Posted by: Methos at April 29, 2011 12:26 PM (uqJo6)

48 13 There is something strange about Obama needing to get a new BC to show, instead of just showing the one that everybody has, holds dear, and routinely uses throughout life
__________

Original was destroyed in a house fire in the '70s.

I also don't have my original; it was in a box of stuff that was stolen when we moved back to the states when my dad retired from the Army in the '76.

"everybody has" is overstating it.

Posted by: Anachronda at April 29, 2011 12:27 PM (6fER6)

49 FROGERY!!!  IT'S FROGERY, I say!!!

Posted by: wiserbud at April 29, 2011 12:27 PM (3Okgs)

50 That's a great debunking. NOW WHAT ABOOT THIS BIRTH CERTIFICATE PROVING OBAMA WAS BORN IN VANCOUVER? HUH? HUH? HOW COULD STANLEY BE IN WASHINGTON TWO WEEKS AFTER GIVING BIRTH? HUH?I HOW DID SHE GET THERE, ACE - IF THAT'S EVEN YOUR NAME? FLY?!1!!1

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at April 29, 2011 12:27 PM (FI38b)

51 I'm going home to crunch figs with water apes in a blue lagoon. If its a fake, who cares? Like George Soros said many years ago, lets move on. BTW the musky smell of apes mixed with the piquant sharpness of crunched figs makes for an atmosphere condusive to eating pudding.

Posted by: Goober at April 29, 2011 12:28 PM (Q5+Og)

Posted by: maddogg at April 29, 2011 12:28 PM (OlN4e)

53 MikeTheMoose: "But we already know [BO is willing to liecheatandsteal to win] with 99.99% certainty anyway.

So before we get into forensics... CAN ANYONE EXPLAIN WHY I SHOULD CARE?"

We may know that. Not all Americans do. These suspicions provide doubt and diminish Present Saysomething's "likeability" quotient. He becomes more toxic not just because of policy but because of who he is way behind the teleprompter. This is just part of the vetting he never got as a candidate and a flavor the populace never tasted.

Posted by: AnonymousDrivel at April 29, 2011 12:29 PM (RUDDk)

54 I thought we were done with this.

The actual born-in-Kenya Birthers (who were always almost nobody) aren't, because their story presumes all official documents fake. That'd be fine if they had a solid extra-documentary reason to presume that, but they don't. But they're crazy.

Everyone else on the "we" side has split between "Okay then. Don't be such a weaseling shit about everything, President Shit-About-Everything, and you'll spare yourself some innuendo," "Trump gets results!" and "The actual Birthers you shit-about-everything people and Trump-humpers always said were crazy are still crazy, so you're crazy."

I only know about the continuing madness of the Kenya-Birthers because NRO keeps pimping-and-disowning their shit (in between Royal ass-lickings, RINO press releases, and creepy religious-celebrity gossip).

Posted by: oblig. at April 29, 2011 12:29 PM (xvZW9)

55 I also recommend semen for a whiter smile

Posted by: Kal Penn at April 29, 2011 12:29 PM (le5qc)

56 Ace , if you weren't commenting as bagbalm I'ma gonna be disapointed . Not because of the comments , because of the handle .

Posted by: Bill D. Cat at April 29, 2011 12:29 PM (npr0X)

57 My take on this whole issue?  I think it has served it's purpose from the conservative point of view.  It has awakened many people to the fact that presidential nominees should be fully vetted before we give them the codes to our nuclear arsenal.

Posted by: Soona at April 29, 2011 12:30 PM (z3bs4)

58 Maybe (bear with me here) each state's board of elections could determine if a candidate is eligible to hold a certain office, if that's the issue.

Posted by: Biz Daz McAjax at April 29, 2011 12:30 PM (uUo97)

59 @61 RAAAAACIST!!!

Posted by: filbert at April 29, 2011 12:31 PM (smvTK)

60 WHERE'S THE CHROMATIC ABERRATIONS?! THAT BC SHOULD BE SPARKLING LIKE EDWARD FUCKING CULLEN!!!!

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at April 29, 2011 12:32 PM (W7Ddq)

61 I get everything you're saying, Ace, but why the pay to prevent release of the stupid original certificate? Close to a million dollars to prevent its release? Why?

Posted by: mare at April 29, 2011 12:32 PM (A98Xu)

62

I guess the bigger question is, is there any lie Obama wouldn't tell, as long as it furthered his career, power, or interests? When you look at it that way, all of a sudden you look at things quite a bit differently. Look at his track record, what he is willing to hide, what he is willing to do (Obamacare mandate), I won (shut up, he explained) how petty and small he can be (giving opponents the bird in public). When you examine the content of his character, Obama really does come up lacking. So I don't think anything should surprise people about BHO. Or JEF. Whatever you want to call him, it fits.

Posted by: joefrog at April 29, 2011 12:32 PM (vKUhG)

63

Let me begin by stating that my IG is 260.  I hold several PHD's and while my formal training is not in Photoshop, I did work at a Fotomat while in High School. 

I also may or may not have slept with JeffB.'s girlfriend at a Holiday Inn last night.  But that is neither here nor there.

Let me cut to the chase : The forgery is an obvious fake. 

If Captain Murphy will allow it, I'd like to take it to the Sealab Document Identity Lab and do a full scale workup on it.

Posted by: Dr. Quentin Q. Quinn at April 29, 2011 12:32 PM (jyGn7)

64 After looking through all these internet experts' document forensics, I'm starting to have doubts about my own birth certificate.

I've always felt a little... out of place.  Now I know why.

Posted by: sandy burger at April 29, 2011 12:32 PM (MT+0i)

65 How do I know if I'm actually commenting on a real thread? I mean, do any of you really know Ace is real and not a cybernetic construct of the Space Banker Consortium? How do you know you aren't just having a typewritten conversation with a virus designed by Bill Gates and the clone of Baron Rothschild in a secret NASA mosque at Area 51? Wake up, sheeple!

Posted by: George Orwell at April 29, 2011 12:33 PM (ZkHkm)

66 Bedtime story for your grandchildren?

Yeah it would be at the end part where we got utterly distracted from the real philosophical war of the age by unimportant minutiae and ended up losing the critical battle of our time.

I'd call it "What it Was Once Like in the United States Where Men Were Free"

Posted by: MikeTheMoose at April 29, 2011 12:33 PM (0q2P7)

67 27 All Karl has done is prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the LFBC posted on the WH.gov site, which was purported to be a certified photocopy (read: scan) by both those in Obama's Administration as well as the Secretary of Health for HI, has rather been created out of whole cloth. It is most certainly NOT a scan.
__________

No, he hasn't.

The whole reason the scanning software would split the documents into layers is so that it can use different compression algorithms for different parts of the document.

For the part that the scanner thinks is text, it would something good in text. Kind of like a fax machine would use. Probably monochrome.

You know what wouldn't survive a monochrome compression? Color fringing.

We're not talking lossless compression here.

Posted by: Anachronda at April 29, 2011 12:34 PM (6fER6)

68 I see Barky's Bizarro-Midas touch got the shuttle launch scrubbed today.

Posted by: Waterhouse at April 29, 2011 12:34 PM (Hiaja)

69 Birtherism is so two-years-ago. I'm a transcripter. Ist.

Posted by: FUBAR at April 29, 2011 12:34 PM (SZetI)

70 Again, I do not assert that the document contains false content. However, I am drop-dead certain it is not a clean flatbed scan.

Posted by: CTN at April 29, 2011 05:23 PM (J+Ksi)

Wow, did the obviously fake added background give it away? They added a background that makes it "look authentic" and ineptly cleaned up the text. That's hardly a "forgery" considering the text within is the same as the one in the AP scan.

Posted by: Johnny at April 29, 2011 12:35 PM (FYwGn)

71 How do you know you aren't just...

It's all one big simulation.

Posted by: Blacque Jacques Shellacque at April 29, 2011 12:36 PM (Kd7IW)

72

So Obama hasn't needed a BC since he lost his original back in some fire in the 70s? Really?

Now I really do want to know how he got into Harvard. Or how he ever got a job..............oh wait. Nevermind. They probably don't demand a whole lot of documentation for signing up as a community organizer. And as we all know, he did such a bang up job there that he has been on easy street ever since.

Posted by: joefrog at April 29, 2011 12:36 PM (vKUhG)

73 I'm a Pok eeeeeee Ston Triper.

Posted by: Delta Smelt at April 29, 2011 12:36 PM (dWPyO)

74 When did they get to Ace?

Posted by: Dr Spank at April 29, 2011 12:37 PM (GC5/b)

75 This "Goober" is a dead man. DEAD.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at April 29, 2011 12:37 PM (W7Ddq)

76 I also may or may not have slept with JeffB.'s girlfriend at a Holiday Inn last night.  But that is neither here nor there.

I wouldn't admit that anywhere that someone might recognize your hash.

Posted by: Methos at April 29, 2011 12:37 PM (uqJo6)

77 68 How do I know if I'm actually commenting on a real thread? I mean, do any of you really know Ace is real and not a cybernetic construct of the Space Banker Consortium? How do you know you aren't just having a typewritten conversation with a virus designed by Bill Gates and the clone of Baron Rothschild in a secret NASA mosque at Area 51?

Wake up, sheeple!

Posted by: George Orwell at April 29, 2011 05:33 PM (ZkHkm)

Sorry, I'm only logged into this simulation at a sense-terminal, I'm not supposed to confirm or deny anything to someone who's permanently installed.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at April 29, 2011 12:37 PM (bxiXv)

78 73 Wow, did the obviously fake added background give it away? They added a background that makes it "look authentic" and ineptly cleaned up the text. That's hardly a "forgery" considering the text within is the same as the one in the AP scan.
_______

Sorry, don't buy it.

Since the background is the same as was present on the original COLB, I believe it was put there by Hawaii when they made the copy.

The whole point of the background is to be hard to copy. I suspect the AP scan just didn't pick up the background because it's hard to copy.

Posted by: Anachronda at April 29, 2011 12:38 PM (6fER6)

79

 Let me begin by stating that my IG is 260.

Internal Gerbil count?

 

I can beat that!

Posted by: Dr. QuRichard Gereentin Q. Quinn at April 29, 2011 12:38 PM (jyGn7)

80 I wonder if Obama will now pardon serviceman Terry Lakin?  You know, the guy the CIC allowed to go to prison rather than release his B.C.

Posted by: louisianaLightning at April 29, 2011 12:38 PM (W1mrP)

81

Let me begin by stating that my IG is 260.

Internal Gerbil count?

Talk to me when you hit the 300 club.

Posted by: Richard Gere at April 29, 2011 12:38 PM (vKUhG)

82 Posted by: wiserbud at April 29, 2011 05:27 PM (3Okgs)

This seems to be the best and, hopefully, the last word on the subject.

Ribbit...ribbit...

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo (NJConservative) at April 29, 2011 12:38 PM (LH6ir)

83 Interestingly enough U K L Lee's signature is on another document here.

Gotta say that struck me as weird, but there it is.

Posted by: citizen khan at April 29, 2011 12:38 PM (yTmCs)

84

FIRE CAN'T MELT STEEL!!!11!!!

SCANNERS CAN'T RECORD BLACK!!!11!!!

Posted by: Hollowpoint at April 29, 2011 12:38 PM (SY2Kh)

85 When did they get to Ace?

That missile launch in Cali was actually a warning to Ace to start toeing the line, or else.

Posted by: Waterhouse at April 29, 2011 12:39 PM (Hiaja)

86 It's all one big simulation.

Tell me about it.

Posted by: Morpheus at April 29, 2011 12:39 PM (uqJo6)

87 76 So Obama hasn't needed a BC since he lost his original back in some fire in the 70s? Really? Now I really do want to know how he got into Harvard. Or how he ever got a job...

I've been using my old, expired passport for those purposes since *my* BC got lost.

Posted by: Anachronda at April 29, 2011 12:39 PM (6fER6)

88 In short -- are we everything the liberals say we are?>>>>>> Ace, just grab your crossbow and prove them wrong!!!!

Posted by: Joejm65 at April 29, 2011 12:39 PM (BDB5n)

89

puppehtOFF!

man, I need a nap 

Posted by: garrett at April 29, 2011 12:39 PM (jyGn7)

90 I'm a reader of the Market Ticker rather regularly. I even use his charts in class sometimes. He, Karl, has not made a lot of comment on this issue until the announcement this week. I wish he would get back to what he does rather well in financial discussion and foreclosure fraud. Though I do understand how his brash style, and tendency to self-aggrandize could turn off some. But I agree with Ace's summation (as usual) here in that all he's doing is pissing away what little credit got him onto some MSM news outlets in the recent past. Now he'll always be labeled as "Birther", no matter if the term is accurate or not. So much for the good work he's doing in other areas.

Posted by: Doc at April 29, 2011 12:40 PM (jGXQI)

91 Do Birthers realize they have raised the bar for proving one's citizenship so high that none of us will ever be able to prove we ourselves are citizens?

If you can't trust a Certificate of Live Birth from a US State along with a certified copy of your actual long form Birth Certificate from that same US State along with contemporaneous newspaper clippings announcing your birth in local papers, along with essentially no evidence that you were born anywhere else - what can you trust?

I don't think I could do much better in the proof department.  Can anyone?

I mean, it isn't like I know personally where I was born.  I, like every one else, take my parent's word for it.  I've seen pictures of me at a young age in what appears to be Seattle.  I've seen a copy of my Birth Certificate, but what beyond that can any of us produce?

Posted by: seattle slough at April 29, 2011 12:40 PM (JRGA6)

92 I wonder if Obama will now pardon serviceman Terry Lakin?  You know, the guy the CIC allowed to go to prison rather than release his B.C.

Has he donated to my 2012 campaign yet?

Posted by: Barry the Magnanimous at April 29, 2011 12:40 PM (uqJo6)

93

I think the person that scanned this and posted it is loving the reaction by the birthers

Posted by: SnowSun at April 29, 2011 12:41 PM (UAUr6)

94

A second huge tell on this doc can easily be seen by an the naked eye of amateurs and professionals alike. Simply magnify the doc 500 times or more and you’ll see that while the green background completely blurs out, the text remains perfectly legible and not blurred at all. This is because the graphic artist used a bitmap, most likely well above 600 dpi, for his text layer, whereas his background was probably a simple scan at 300 dpi, creating the obvious mix-match.

Posted by: CTN at April 29, 2011 05:23 PM (J+Ksi)

Or, you know, IT WAS TYPED???  Scan a dollar bill and look at the serial number. It doesn't show any bits because the flat face of a piece of metal made it!

 And how much do you know about photo-offset printing? Works just like how a tv makes a color picture, or how desk top publishing works. Thus the difference.

Posted by: Quilly Mammoth at April 29, 2011 12:41 PM (RJWyR)

95 I'm still not sure about Christina Hendrick's breasts. If I magnify them 500%, does that count as forensic research? Yes. Yes, it does.

Posted by: George Orwell at April 29, 2011 12:41 PM (ZkHkm)

96 Posted by: Anachronda at April 29, 2011 05:39 PM (6fER6)

Ah, so you are in on it too!

Posted by: Please God, let's move on! at April 29, 2011 12:41 PM (LH6ir)

97 Are we smarter than this?

Apparently not, or we wouldn't put up post after post that effectively does our damnedest to split conservatives in two over an issue that after three years has been shown time and again not to be a liability for us otherwise.  But then, I'm pretty sure stuff like this is mainly just designed to troll for hits anyway, so it's cool.

Hey gang, how much longer will it take Ace to do yet another complete 180 on birtherism?  Stay tuned!

Posted by: The War Between the Undead States at April 29, 2011 12:41 PM (FYCiJ)

98 that might fail the Krugman Civility Test . . . Pompous & arrogant? yes, its a definite fail. denounce yourself.

Posted by: bebe's boobs destroy at April 29, 2011 12:42 PM (YEwSM)

99 are we everything the liberals say we are?

Who's to say it's not libs making most of these arguments?

Posted by: SouthTexas at April 29, 2011 12:42 PM (Rmz5I)

100 I know The Matrix has me by the balls, but she has such soft warm hands.......

Posted by: maddogg at April 29, 2011 12:42 PM (OlN4e)

101 96 Do Birthers realize they have raised the bar for proving one's citizenship so high that none of us will ever be able to prove we ourselves are citizens?
________

Which is precisely how George Soros wants it. When the New World Order comes, only those who can really, really, really prove their citizenship will be citizens. The rest of us will be serfs.

Prove me wrong.

Posted by: Anachronda at April 29, 2011 12:42 PM (6fER6)

102

Ok, glad the birth certificate is solved. Hows about we ask some more interesting questions about Barky's past that are sure to make him squirm.

To start, how were you able to backpack around Poch-ee-stahn in 1981 when the State Department banned US citizens from going there?

This is yet another long-debunked but oft-repeated Birther myth.

The State Dept didn't ban US citizens from going there.  They issued a travel advisory advising against it and somehow that got twisted into the myth you're referring to.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at April 29, 2011 12:42 PM (SY2Kh)

103 Ace: "For every person who goes to market seeking to purchase snake-oil and magic geans, there is at least one person who will set up a stand and agree to sell him such products."

Agreed. What can we say? We love snake-oil and magic geans. It's what's for breakfast.

Posted by: 52% at April 29, 2011 12:42 PM (RUDDk)

104 That missile launch in Cali was actually a warning to Ace to start toeing the line, or else. Moron . That twisted fucker Burge was there the day in question ..... 'nuff said .

Posted by: Bill D. Cat at April 29, 2011 12:42 PM (npr0X)

105 63 WHERE'S THE CHROMATIC ABERRATIONS?!

THAT BC SHOULD BE SPARKLING LIKE EDWARD FUCKING CULLEN!!!!

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at April 29, 2011 05:32 PM (W7Ddq)


Show me chromatic aberrations on a typed page.  There aren't any.

Posted by: Quilly Mammoth at April 29, 2011 12:42 PM (RJWyR)

106 Posted by: George Orwell at April 29, 2011 05:41 PM (ZkHkm)

The gold standard is, of course, the touch test. But you are a moron and almost certainly don't know how to perform it.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo (NJConservative) at April 29, 2011 12:44 PM (LH6ir)

107 102 Are we smarter than this?>>>>>>>> Writing a long post and complaining about it just make things worse. It continues the conversation. Just sayin'.

Posted by: Joejm65 at April 29, 2011 12:44 PM (BDB5n)

108 I thought we were done with the birth certificate and moving on to transcriptorism and dentism. And while we're at it can we get to scarism because I do wonder what that big ass scar on his head is about. Is it evidence he was dropped on his head repeatedly as a child because that could explain a lot.

Posted by: ParanoidAnxietyGirlInSeattle at April 29, 2011 12:44 PM (RZ8pf)

109 I smell troll. Penis Mood: ALERT

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at April 29, 2011 12:44 PM (W7Ddq)

110 Do Birthers realize they have raised the bar for proving one's citizenship so high that none of us will ever be able to prove we ourselves are citizens?

It's not like anyone in government gives a flying fig who's a citizen and who isn't.

Posted by: A couple millian central and south american "citizens" who crossed the border in the last year at April 29, 2011 12:44 PM (uqJo6)

111

@Johnny — I’m a little bit slow and have no idea what you’re referencing. However, no one cleaned up the text. That text is a bitmap, which was created apart from the original scan.

@Quilly Mammoth: Not sure what your point is, or if you have one.

Posted by: CTN at April 29, 2011 12:45 PM (J+Ksi)

Posted by: Truman North at April 29, 2011 12:45 PM (8ay4x)

113 Interestingly enough U K L Lee's signature is on another document here.

Gotta say that struck me as weird, but there it is.

Posted by: citizen khan at April 29, 2011 05:38 PM (yTmCs)

The only thing weird about Obama's birth certificate to me is that there is no sign of an embossed seal anywhere. The one you just linked to has it, everyother one I have seen has it. Obama's doesn't have it.

Or at least I can't see it, maybe it does if you enlarge it.

Posted by: robtr at April 29, 2011 12:46 PM (MtwBb)

114 I mean, it isn't like I know personally where I was born.  I, like every one else, take my parent's word for it.  I've seen pictures of me at a young age in what appears to be Seattle.  I've seen a copy of my Birth Certificate, but what beyond that can any of us produce?

Posted by: seattle slough at April 29, 2011 05:40 PM (JRGA6)

 

Mine has a slightly smeared but uncommonly cute footprint on it. 

Posted by: Soona at April 29, 2011 12:46 PM (z3bs4)

115 I'm with Ace on this one. Keep hammering on the grades, the passports, the Connecticut SS #, any other shit that might make him look bad or devious or in general full of it.
 
If nothing else, it makes him squirm a bit. At this point, to keep pushing on the BC thing makes everyone involved look like cranks. Let it be.

Posted by: GnuBreed at April 29, 2011 12:46 PM (ENKCw)

116 Let's follow this man to the Gates of Hell.

It would be one heck of a wild ride, but no thanks. Let's get back to the real business that needs done.  Like Oprah, fund-raisers, golfing and trips to Florida.

Posted by: dfbaskwill at April 29, 2011 12:46 PM (ndlFj)

117 Do Birthers realize they have raised the bar for proving one's citizenship so high that none of us will ever be able to prove we ourselves are citizens? Well if that means I don't have to pay taxes, then I'm all for it

Posted by: nevergiveup at April 29, 2011 12:46 PM (i6RpT)

118 Posted by: Empire of Jeff at April 29, 2011 05:44 PM (W7Ddq)

Okay, this explains a lot. And also brings an image to my mind's eye that will require a significant quantity of Bulleit Rye Whiskey to eradicate,

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo (NJConservative) at April 29, 2011 12:47 PM (LH6ir)

119 The gold standard is, of course, the touch test. But you are a moron and almost certainly don't know how to perform it. As a moron I am excellent at another kind of touch test. Possibly forensic in some circumstances.

Posted by: George Orwell at April 29, 2011 12:47 PM (ZkHkm)

120

Mine has a slightly smeared but uncommonly cute footprint on it. 

Posted by: Soona at April 29, 2011 05:46 PM (z3bs4)

Yeah, cute for a size 9. I have doubts concerning its authenticity.....

Posted by: maddogg at April 29, 2011 12:48 PM (OlN4e)

121

Yes ACE, you are the go to guy on the BIRTHER ISSUE.

If the game is over, why are you still playing?

Posted by: gus at April 29, 2011 12:48 PM (Vqruj)

122 Ending comments with a comma,

Posted by: Truman North at April 29, 2011 12:48 PM (8ay4x)

123

Or at least I can't see it, maybe it does if you enlarge it.

Posted by: robtr at April 29, 2011 05:46 PM (MtwBb)

 

It does.  But it looks a bit like the Hezbollah flag.

Posted by: Soona at April 29, 2011 12:48 PM (z3bs4)

124

 

I've been using Photoshop for 20 years and I don't even want to look at the frickn' certificate -- it'll just suck me in.

Posted by: Dr. Varno at April 29, 2011 12:48 PM (QMtmy)

125 Mark Steyn's comments this afternoon while filling in for Rush. Paraphrasing: "Out of all the things this guy could be impeached for, you want to impeach him for the one single thing in his life that he had no control over, his birth?" Yeah, Seems like it for some. Ugh.

Posted by: supercore at April 29, 2011 12:48 PM (bwV72)

126 Do Birthers realize they have raised the bar for proving one's citizenship so high that none of us will ever be able to prove we ourselves are citizens?

Posted by: seattle slough

 

Absofuckinglutely.

The bar has been raised, and 'birthers' are to blame. Not the petty prick that went for a job clearing $400,000 that played games with his. That's why illegal aliens are living in fear, why no one can vote, and why no one can get a job.

 

This debate is becoming increasingly futile, but this is perhaps the least likely outcome of it.

Posted by: Blue Hen at April 29, 2011 12:49 PM (6rX0K)

127 Undead, I notice something missing from your screed -- a single statement or argument that anything I've said is wrong. Your stance seems to be that it's just wrong for me to say someone's wrong. Even if I'm right. That I should lie "for the cause." Further, I never did a 180. I said it was my feeling this was harmless, for ONE reason I repeated every time I said it: Because so long as Barack Obama refuses to release the damn birth certificate, people can say "Well why doesn't he release it then?" And that's a reasonable question. And that would tend to blunt the "crazy" charge. But now Obama, in case you didn't notice, HAS released the thing. So that rebuttal -- "why doesn't he just release it already?" -- no longer applies. Now those who are unreasonable and unreasoning, actually, are exposed as such, without the cover of being able to say "Well why doesn't he just release it?" HE DID. And, as predicted: IT DOESN'T MATTER. Further, every time I said "it's relatively harmless" I always then said ("but by the way, it's not true"). I always said it was completely false. I just didn't think it was politically harmful to have a dumb idea-- so long as Obama could be shown to be unreasonable in not providing the birth certificate. So whither birtherism now, Undead? Is it going to be more "I think it's a wild coincidence that the Kenyan forgery got the time of birth right"? Are we just going to continue indulging stupid shit like that? Whereas I'm a sell-out for demonstrating how fucking stupid this statement is? WHEN THE FUCK DID IT BECOME CONSERVATIVELY INCORRECT TO SPEAK THE FUCKING TRUTH?!

Posted by: ace at April 29, 2011 12:49 PM (nj1bB)

128 man, I need a nap ahhh, you stayed up to watch the royal wedding too. how sweet. did it earn you a bj from the little lady?

Posted by: bebe's boobs destroy at April 29, 2011 12:49 PM (YEwSM)

129 Aw geez, I just heard the head velociraptor from Jurassic Park died last night

Posted by: Truman North at April 29, 2011 12:50 PM (8ay4x)

130 @ 123, Yeah, because Charlie Brown's Dildo evokes images of cavorting in a meadow full of butterflies.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at April 29, 2011 12:50 PM (W7Ddq)

131 The Birth Certificate Debate needs to be revamped. There's before release (BR) and post-release (PR). Before this week, whatever, I have no idea. Whatever it was that the White House released this week was faked. So, this is confusing to someone who cares not for BR bitching. However, PR is interested because there are a ton of adobe experts and people with mid to high end computer skills coming to the same conclusion that the failure to flatten the layers shows something was done to the document. While American leftists with these skills may be unwilling to issue forth hate-facts that would hurt their deity, foreign experts, regardless of political affiliation, have no affinity for American politicians and they are also chiming in that it's a fake.

Posted by: joeindc44 at April 29, 2011 12:50 PM (QxSug)

132

I pinky swore I wouldn't say anything else, but this is a thread on the issue so I figure it's OK.

I did not realize that he had updated his post to reflect the certification dates. But, he is now saying that the certification dates (plural) on each of the Kenyan and Hawaii documents are the same. Not just the the one on the COLB.

He does not say he believes the Hawaii BC is real..though he does throw a tweaking in there. What he is getting at is that whoever created the fake Kenya BC "had info" that was on the Hawaii BC, but not the COLB. In addition to the coinciding 8/8 certifying signatures, there are signatures dated 8/7 on both docs.

Sure, to say that is proof of anythimng is stretching it a tad for far. That still does not change that there are other issues he brought up that have not been knocked down.

There are a lot of people who seem to know a lot about computer graphics software that are throwing up red flags.

One thing that I am hoping that someone here, that has and knows how to use Adobe Illustrato, can check on and verify for me is that I saw a claim out there that one of the layers on the WH version has a date stamp of October 2010.

Now why would that be?

Posted by: beedubya at April 29, 2011 12:50 PM (AnTyA)

133 I do like when people follow trackbacks here and accuse us of shilling for Obama.

It's sehr amusiert.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at April 29, 2011 12:50 PM (bxiXv)

134

Writing a long post and complaining about it just make things worse. It continues the conversation. Just sayin'.

It's either a post about it, or the Birther retards keep making off topic comments about it in every other fucking thread because they're too vested in their delusions to let go.

Fact and evidence never really dissuade the conspiracy theorist- they just tweak their theory in such a way that it can't be disproven by available evidence, while providing no evidence themselves to back up their wholly imagined theory.

I expect such deranged lunacy and stupidity on leftist blogs.  That's why I don't comment on them; you can't engage in rational discussion with the irrational.  I don't want or expect to see it here.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at April 29, 2011 12:51 PM (SY2Kh)

135

WHEN THE FUCK DID IT BECOME CONSERVATIVELY INCORRECT TO SPEAK THE FUCKING TRUTH?!

Amen, brudda

Posted by: beedubya at April 29, 2011 12:52 PM (AnTyA)

136 Aquarius You'll be devastated by the news that you could have stopped a major tragedy in Nigeria if you had only answered their pleading e-mails in time.

Well, shit

Posted by: Truman North at April 29, 2011 12:52 PM (8ay4x)

137 I'm not a birther, but the fact is that Obama and his staff can't scan a document and post it online without screwing it up. Grim

Posted by: Grim at April 29, 2011 12:53 PM (gyNYk)

138 Does anyone have a Venn diagram with Birthers and Paulians on it? I think there might have been some interesting changes to that diagram in the last few days...

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at April 29, 2011 12:53 PM (bxiXv)

139

There is a sucker born every minute.

RINO!!!!!!

Posted by: Biz Daz McAjax at April 29, 2011 12:54 PM (uUo97)

140

ahhh, you stayed up to watch the royal wedding too. how sweet. did it earn you a bj from the little lady?

 

No little lady.  No royal wedding. 

Just up all night with nightmares of making High Friction love on the Kitchen Counters

Posted by: garrett at April 29, 2011 12:54 PM (jyGn7)

141 **I'm not a birther, but the fact is is that Obama and his staff can't scan a document and post it online without screwing it up. ** ditto

Posted by: joeindc44 at April 29, 2011 12:54 PM (QxSug)

142 Those who've followed the birther movement know that it's more than a birth certificate issue. Bambi had to become an Indonesian citizen so he could go to school there. Fine. If he became a US citizen again when he got back to the US, no problem. If he became a citizen again after he, say, got out of Harvard...problem. I fault the movement for just focusing on the BC and not pressing for a broader view of the life and times (and records) of B.H. Obama. Still, there are a lot of unanswered questions about this guy, and some of them still pertain to issues of eligibility. Shame on the birthers for focusing on such a small percentage of the story.

Posted by: Joejm65 at April 29, 2011 12:54 PM (BDB5n)

143 let's lay off the magic beans okay? remember, those beans did work.

Posted by: tsepes at April 29, 2011 12:55 PM (kSPou)

144 142 I'm not a birther, but the fact is that Obama and his staff can't scan a document and post it online without screwing it up.

Posted by: Grim at April 29, 2011 05:53 PM (gyNYk)

Maybe they did it on purpose to keep the Birthers riled up and yanking everyone's chains.

I think it more likely that the person who scanned it in is just the sort of person who can't resist fiddling with something until they think it's perfect, even if it was fine to begin with.

I would have just taken a digital photo of it in high-res, on a desk, in front of witnesses.

Not that it would "STOP THE SIGNAL, MAN!"

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at April 29, 2011 12:56 PM (bxiXv)

145 I think Moochelle is really a Thai tranny.  Prove me wrong.

Posted by: Soona at April 29, 2011 12:57 PM (z3bs4)

146

@117: "Docu-maven Stoaty Weasel gives the new BC a tepid thumbs-up.  I will go with her OK for now."

As she said: "In the absence of any new information, I’m going to say: legitimate and official. Also crude, ugly and utterly uninspiring of confidence. Like an electronic vote divorced from its original paper counterpart, it’s probably real but SO easily could be effed with."

I suspect that's all Denninger was getting at with his technical arguments - it was a soup sandwich.

All The Messiah had to do was say "Here it is..." and he couldn't even do that very well.

Posted by: Fa Cube Itches at April 29, 2011 12:57 PM (xy9wk)

147

let's lay off the...beans okay? remember, those beans did work.

 

 Purple Bush Beans?  The computer says we have those in stock.

...let me see if I can find them for you.

Posted by: Whoopi and Oprah's Roadside Veggie Stand at April 29, 2011 12:58 PM (jyGn7)

148 You gotta admit, "U.K.L. Lee" is fucking priceless.

Posted by: Tom at April 29, 2011 12:58 PM (MWXXs)

149 Note that the IMS file about Obama's father that was released yesterday included the note from Harvard that he had an American wife and a son "who was born in Hawaii".

That was from 1964 I think.


Posted by: Kasper Hauser at April 29, 2011 12:59 PM (HqpV0)

150 Deleted-- do it again and your IP goes straight to the Secret Service. Try me, asshole.

Posted by: gus at April 29, 2011 01:00 PM (Vqruj)

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at April 29, 2011 01:01 PM (7utQ2)

152 148 Those who've followed the birther movement know that it's more than a birth certificate issue. Bambi had to become an Indonesian citizen so he could go to school there. Fine. If he became a US citizen again when he got back to the US, no problem. If he became a citizen again after he, say, got out of Harvard...problem. I fault the movement for just focusing on the BC and not pressing for a broader view of the life and times (and records) of B.H. Obama. Still, there are a lot of unanswered questions about this guy, and some of them still pertain to issues of eligibility. Shame on the birthers for focusing on such a small percentage of the story.

Posted by: Joejm65 at April 29, 2011 05:54 PM (BDB5n)

I've had a long held suspicion that the birther "movement" is and has always been prodded along by Obama & Co. I agree with you that there are far more interesting questions regarding our shady president's past, particularly the Indonesian citizenship question...

Posted by: mugiwara at April 29, 2011 01:01 PM (KI/Ch)

153 Posted by: gus at April 29, 2011 06:00 PM (Vqruj) I get your joking around, but you really oughta be careful

Posted by: nevergiveup at April 29, 2011 01:01 PM (i6RpT)

154 bebe's boobs destroy has demanded that I denounce myself.

I hereby do so.

And, by the way, did you know that George Bush planned 9/11?  I heard it on Coast to Coast AM.  Or was it Alex Jones? 

Somebody get me a gun and a Bible to bitterly cling to!

Forgive me, Obama, for I have Sinned!  I have looked with favor upon the Palin, and wished for her ascendency to High Office, while looking askance upon Thy August (4th, 1964, Honolulu, HI) Long Form Birth Certificate Image and also At The Whole Stupid Issue, when Everybody Knows We Should Just Let You Fiddle While Rome Burns!

And Every Single Word Should Henceforth Be Capitalized!

. . . so, this is what happens when the Benedryl kicks in . . .

Posted by: filbert at April 29, 2011 01:02 PM (smvTK)

155 Has anyone produced the hospital wrist band yet?

Posted by: The Donald at April 29, 2011 01:02 PM (YZISw)

156

@156: "I'm more interested in his DEATH CERTIFICATE."

Are you free tomorrow at around 4:30?  No? Clear your schedule; we have some questions for you.

Posted by: United States Secret Service at April 29, 2011 01:02 PM (xy9wk)

157 151 I think Moochelle is really a Thai tranny. Prove me wrong.

Posted by: Soona at April 29, 2011 05:57 PM (z3bs4)

Oh, come on, zoom in 500% and you can tell she's not Thai!

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at April 29, 2011 01:03 PM (bxiXv)

158

Nevergiveup.  I  was being careful.

Posted by: gus at April 29, 2011 01:03 PM (Vqruj)

159 >>>Those who've followed the birther movement know that it's more than a birth certificate issue. Exactly. There are many and varied ways in which people have made shit up.

Posted by: ace at April 29, 2011 01:04 PM (nj1bB)

160 My next question about this whole affair is:  How in the hell could anyone fuck a whiny, mealy-mouthed, communist whore?

Posted by: Soona at April 29, 2011 01:04 PM (z3bs4)

161 Gus, you're banned. Goodbye, asshole.

Posted by: ace at April 29, 2011 01:04 PM (nj1bB)

162

Oh, come on, zoom in 500% and

 

...that's no tranny, that's a man -baby!

Posted by: Austin Powers at April 29, 2011 01:04 PM (jyGn7)

163 If stupidity were cornflakes, this asshole would be General Mills.

Posted by: Ghost of John Brown at April 29, 2011 01:04 PM (cBcNP)

164 Oh and gus, if you're one of those guys who's too badass to take a ban, say another word and I send your comment to the Secret Service.

Posted by: ace at April 29, 2011 01:05 PM (nj1bB)

165 I saw Sandy Burger dump Obama's real birth certificate into the Texas school book depository. Or maybe it was a coloring book, I can't tell from the degraded 8mm film.

Posted by: George Orwell at April 29, 2011 01:05 PM (ZkHkm)

166 Obama let a man go to prison cause he was a dick head and didn't release this document sooner. Maybe that soldier was in the wrong. Maybe prison is where he deserved to go. Still says much about Obama's character. Fuck someone's life up and also spend lots of money all cause you don't want to release a stupid document that we all have done at one time or another.

Magic geans.  I have magic pudding geans I'm selling. Need to sell enough so I can buy a new cross bow.

Oh just think Willy is probably all deep in that Kate pudding right about now.

Posted by: PatriotWI at April 29, 2011 01:05 PM (BqdfG)

167 We may know that. Not all Americans do.


This topic will never be seriously entertained by anyone of widespread credibility ever again.

On the very very small chance that there is someone both stupid and brave and credible that asserts the BC is not true, the media, SocialismRUS, and D inc, will destroy their reputation.

On the off chance he still has any credibility left the admin will just produce a better fake, if it is fake.

All the meanwhile we will get played as extremist jerks by the MBM who will cover the "extremist right" "conspiracy theory", 24/7 as to keep the debate OFF the economy and debt, while the 1.5% that voted for Obama last time that we need to vote for us this time will sour at our position and we will stand a very good chance of losing a very winnable election. Ultimately after losing the election the courts will deny standing so we can't even take the matter to court.

Now if you have some believable scenario otherwise tell me how that works. Tell me about all the courts which have denied standing to everyone will suddenly have a change of heart. Tell me about someone willing to use all of their credibility up pushing this football to the front. Tell me about how we can actually convince people who are more likely to believe the believable as long as it doesn't involve a huge conspiracy, that this is conclusively fake. How obvious would it have to be? How much evidence would that take? More than sparkles.

Just like you want to believe this document is fake. That 1.5% of voters we need want to believe it is REAL. Because they don't want to think their President would deliberately forge something. They will take any logical or emotional out to continue to believe this document is real. The want to believe they didn't elect a criminal.

We may know that. Not all Americans do.

That's the paradox: until most of them do, this topic is useless because they won't believe it's fake. And when most of them do, this topic is useless because we already demonstrated what this would prove.

has been shown time and again not to be a liability for us otherwise.

Shown how exactly? Where can I go to find objective evidence of this? That the media reporting away on this (When we have no credible backing) and calling us extremist does not hurt us?

We have the Fed giving an economic forecast that looks like Socialist EU!!! And everyone wants to prove the Presidents a liar? There are better easier ways, on more substantive topics.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose at April 29, 2011 01:05 PM (0q2P7)

168 Well, gus does have a point.  Zombie 0bama would certainly explain his demonstrable lack of reasoning ability and other various tendencies of his....

Posted by: Pimpbot 5000 at April 29, 2011 01:06 PM (c45xH)

169 Dammit, Malia...be more careful with my college transcripts

Posted by: President Petey at April 29, 2011 01:07 PM (AnTyA)

170 Threatening the President of the United States is a class D felony under United States Code Title 18, Section 871. It consists of knowingly and willfully mailing or otherwise making "any threat to take the life of, to kidnap, or to inflict bodily harm upon the President of the United States"

Posted by: nevergiveup at April 29, 2011 01:08 PM (i6RpT)

171

@166: "How in the hell could anyone fuck a whiny, mealy-mouthed, communist whore?"

Simple - just point out that she's a member of the fascist white regime by birth, quote her some Marx talk about the evils of colonialism, give her some wine, put on some Coletrane, smoke a little spliff, and let the magic happen, baby.  They spread like butter. 

Posted by: Barack Obama Sr. at April 29, 2011 01:08 PM (xy9wk)

172 How in the hell could anyone fuck a whiny, mealy-mouthed, communist whore?

'Cause it pissed her daddy off something awesome.

Posted by: BHO the 1st at April 29, 2011 01:09 PM (3Okgs)

173 methinks the banhammer is just getting warmed up...

Posted by: garrett at April 29, 2011 01:09 PM (jyGn7)

174 Pilot Varsity fountain pen: $3

That right there is the real scandal in the story.  Who pays that much for a pen?

Could be the Obamaflation we have I guess.

Posted by: Guy Fawkes at April 29, 2011 01:09 PM (IXLvN)

175 Malia: Daddy have you plugged that hole yet?

Obama: Yes honey, with all of my school transcripts. My report card was so dense in A's it actually created a blackhole in the hole that sucked up all the oil.

Posted by: PatriotWI at April 29, 2011 01:09 PM (BqdfG)

176

At this point I could care less about where Toonces was born, because, let's face it, there is NO ONE in the legislative or judicial class who will do ANYTHING about it.  I am a whole lot more concerned about where this dumbass is steering this country.  Broke is broke is broke, whether an Indonesian or a Kenyan or a Hawaiian brought us to this point is immaterial to me.

Posted by: Truck Monkey at April 29, 2011 01:10 PM (yQWNf)

177

@156,

THIS is how you do it, numbnuts:

 

"I'm more interested in seeing his pink slip."

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at April 29, 2011 01:10 PM (lGFXF)

178 Seems like a lot of energy to spend on a controversy manufactured by Dear Leader and his band of juvenile advisors and communists in the media. Obama is a two-bit Marxist grifter and a transparent fraud--a dangerous one.

Posted by: Diondrum at April 29, 2011 01:11 PM (Eqa5p)

179 May we please talk about Agincourt now?

Posted by: Soona at April 29, 2011 01:12 PM (z3bs4)

180

Posted by: Truck Monkey at April 29, 2011 06:10 PM (yQWNf)

This. The birther issue is irrelevant, the wheels have already been set in motion.

Instead of wasting time on the birth certificate, we should be concentrating our efforts on making sure the JEF isn't re-elected.

Posted by: ErikW at April 29, 2011 01:12 PM (/9K4i)

181 I could care less about Stanley Ann; but her father must have been a big asshole cause he named her Stanley.

She should have named her daughter after her own father. The baby girls grandpa in Hawaii that is.

Posted by: PatriotWI at April 29, 2011 01:13 PM (BqdfG)

182 WHEN THE FUCK DID IT BECOME CONSERVATIVELY INCORRECT TO SPEAK THE FUCKING TRUTH?!

Ace, don't you realize that if you aren't perpetually angry and upset about something Obama has or has not done you are not a true conservative?  Get with the program man.

Steyn was so on the money today.  We have this incompetent screw up in the WH destroying this country, and 53% of the population allowed this to happen by voting for him. Yet we're supposed to waste our time with this crap?  Unreal.

Posted by: Paul Zummo at April 29, 2011 01:13 PM (DScmV)

183 So maybe now would be a good time to poach from HA. AP (shut up) has a great piece on the letter(s) that Dems are sending to their constituents about gas prices. Their advice: shop around to find the lowest gas prices around town.

Link.

Posted by: laceyunderalls at April 29, 2011 01:13 PM (pLTLS)

184

Posted by: CTN at April 29, 2011 05:45 PM (J+Ksi)

I'm referencing the green pattern background on the white house birth certificate released to the public. You are saying the text was created in some secret government facility for whatever bizarre purpose. And strangely enough, it is identical to the text on the AP scan of the birth certificate. I am saying the text is a cleaned-up version of the original scan. They added it bit by bit to the green pattern background of the white house version, presumably to at the very least remove the original background from around the letters.

Posted by: Johnny at April 29, 2011 01:13 PM (FYwGn)

185

A second huge tell on this doc can easily be seen by an the naked eye of amateurs and professionals alike. Simply magnify the doc 500 times or more

Piker.

I magnified it 500,000 times and the ratio of carbon12 to carbon14 PROVES that the document was printed 5,000 years in the future.  FAKE!!!11!!!

Posted by: Hollowpoint at April 29, 2011 01:14 PM (SY2Kh)

186 "We should be concentrating our efforts on making sure the JEF isn't re-elected."

Winner

Posted by: PatriotWI at April 29, 2011 01:14 PM (BqdfG)

187 "I'm more interested in seeing his pink slip."

It's racist to accuse Obama of being a cross-dresser.

Posted by: ASome liberal that's never worked a day in his life, but knows "pink slips" at April 29, 2011 01:15 PM (uqJo6)

188

Their advice: shop around to find the lowest gas prices around town.

Found it for 3.29 yesterday and was wishing I had two tanks on my truck...

how bizarre is that.  $3.29 a gallon and I was upset I couldn't buy more!?

Posted by: garrett at April 29, 2011 01:16 PM (jyGn7)

189

Simple - just point out that she's a member of the fascist white regime by birth, quote her some Marx talk about the evils of colonialism, give her some wine, put on some Coletrane, smoke a little spliff, and let the magic happen, baby.  They spread like butter. 

Posted by: Barack Obama Sr. at April 29, 2011 06:08 PM (xy9wk)

 

Cool.  I mean it's like I'm really not that desparate or anything.  Really, I'm not. 

Posted by: Soona at April 29, 2011 01:16 PM (z3bs4)

190

So we are not supposed to question the document or any of the people involved? Really? The same folks that sold us the Porkulus and Obamacare? We are supposed to just go "Yep, looks good!" and move long our way? I mean we are dealing with progressives and Democrats involved in every level of this thing, and we know they never lie, now don't we.

I really don't know what is up with this thing, but I do know the document they posted online looks like crap to me. Why don't we all go a little bit Fonzie and chill out a bit, and if people want to doubt it and ridicule it, well good for them. I can't stand the blogs that shall not be named, that have zero tolerance for the subject. Ok, I have to name it, I can't stand the pseudo-conservative milquetoast HotAir bunch. I can't. Eeyores and Rinos.

Once again, can we agree that if Obama refuses to produce the primary source document for examination in accordance with state ballot appearance laws, then we can start asking questions again?

Posted by: joefrog at April 29, 2011 01:16 PM (vKUhG)

191 The damage is done, now we gotta make sure he is 1 term-er. so let's drop this "purity test" bullshit and elect SOMEBODY.

Posted by: Tom at April 29, 2011 01:16 PM (MWXXs)

192 Their advice: shop around to find the lowest gas prices around town.

Link.

Posted by: laceyunderalls at April 29, 2011 06:13 PM (pLTLS)

Fergodssake....do they really believe we need them to tell us that?

Posted by: Tami at April 29, 2011 01:16 PM (VuLos)

193

Posted by: Hollowpoint at April 29, 2011 06:14 PM (SY2Kh)

 

Tree Ring Dating confirms this.

Posted by: garrett at April 29, 2011 01:17 PM (jyGn7)

194 BTW
the first article of faith you doubters are unknowingly expressing is.

"The President bothered to make a forgery, yet didn't make one that would stand up to casual observation"

Even I, who would just love it if the BC turned out to be proven fake, am so unwilling to believe that statement, at least from the standpoint that it was done unintentionally, that I would believe any marginally reasonable explanation of any and all document defects.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose at April 29, 2011 01:17 PM (0q2P7)

195 How is any of this (conspiracy theory birtherism stuff) helping us defeat Obama? 




Draft Ryan. 

Posted by: Y-not has been off-line all day so she hasn't read any of the threads at April 29, 2011 01:17 PM (pW2o8)

196

how bizarre is that.  $3.29 a gallon and I was upset I couldn't buy more!?

Posted by: garrett at April 29, 2011 06:16 PM (jyGn7)

Paid $4.15 yesterday. I cussed. A lot.

Posted by: ErikW at April 29, 2011 01:18 PM (/9K4i)

197

May we please talk about Agincourt now?

The English would've lost if not for the longbow, an opinion I will defend to the death.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at April 29, 2011 01:18 PM (SY2Kh)

198 May we please talk about Agincourt now?

The French actually won.  The English succeeded in suppressing the records, though, and through superior technology (and dirty tricks) managed to convince all the historians that they really won the day.

There remains a small, discredited fringe group that still insists that it was an English victory, though.  Some people just can't handle the truth.

(I have totally lost track of who I'm making fun of here.  Benadryl, again.)

Posted by: filbert at April 29, 2011 01:18 PM (smvTK)

199 Sorry if this has already been covered, but I haven't been following the whole birth certificate thing closely. I have a couple of questions about the recently released long form birth certificate :

  1) I take it there is a PDF version that has been publicly released by Obama & Co. Who created that PDF? Was it created by the State of Hawaii, or did one of Obama's people scan a paper document, create the PDF from the scan and release that?

2) In what form did the State of Hawaii provide the birth certificate to Obama? Did they send a paper document, or did they send an electronic document (PDF or otherwise)?



Posted by: Iowa Bob at April 29, 2011 01:18 PM (RJ+Yj)

200 I like to read Denninger in the morning. He brings the doom. He's like Monty on steroids, not to suggest that Monty isn't also on steroids.

Posted by: toby928 at April 29, 2011 01:19 PM (evdj2)

201

Hey, I've heard some interesting things about the birth certificate. And you know what? It's fucking over.

This debate was always stupid, only could have been valid in 2006-7, and now if you want to continue it, you have to HAVE TO start by saying, "If you'll look at the issued birth certificate..." and apply a whole bunch of boring nerd stuff. Illustrator, signatures, timelines. Cause nerd stuff is a huge crowd pleaser.

I want Birthers to focus on how Obama's green fantasies are resulting in gas price terror realities.

We can lose this battle, people. We can. Maybe we are still right. But let it the fuck go.

Posted by: William at April 29, 2011 01:19 PM (77TeU)

202 I'm still not clear what exactly the White House is claiming it released. At first I assumed it was a photocopy of the original vital record. But the paper is green, suggesting that the original was scanned into a computer and printed out on new certificate paper (as they do in New York). I assume this would make a difference in any analysis.

Posted by: Average Joe at April 29, 2011 01:19 PM (bN5ZU)

203 >>>So we are not supposed to question the document or any of the people involved? Really? Let's instead trust implicitly random strangers posting on blogs in emails. That should produce good outcomes.

Posted by: ace at April 29, 2011 01:20 PM (nj1bB)

204 Are we sure the birthers are even related to Conservative, GOP, RINO's, any type of Republican at all?  I couldn't even follow the story because it sounded how liberals sound when you give them a fact that interferes with their narrative.  They start going back to previous "facts" that have already been disproved, and they just wear you out.  I found my eyes glazing over like they do when men talk about cars, car parts, etc.

Posted by: xlap13Q at April 29, 2011 01:20 PM (3AnLn)

205

  $3.29 a gallon and I was upset I couldn't buy more!?

I felt I was relatively lucky to "only" pay 3.67 this morning.  93 dollars to fill my tank. I've seen it as high as 3.75 around these parts. 

Andy Dalton to the Bengals.

 

Posted by: Delta Smelt at April 29, 2011 01:20 PM (dWPyO)

206

Found it for 3.29 yesterday and was wishing I had two tanks on my truck...

how bizarre is that.  $3.29 a gallon and I was upset I couldn't buy more!?

Posted by: garrett at April 29, 2011 06:16 PM (jyGn7)

 

Uh?  What was that?  I think I just heard the Overton Window slip a bit.

Posted by: Soona at April 29, 2011 01:20 PM (z3bs4)

207 >>>I really don't know what is up with this thing, but I do know the document they posted online looks like crap to me. Ah, it looks "like crap." Pretty sure most judges would say that's an expert opinion admissible in court. Let's just make up whatever shit that pleases us. The real world is soooo DULL.

Posted by: ace at April 29, 2011 01:21 PM (nj1bB)

208 The French actually won. The English succeeded in suppressing the records, Heh. Some Brit whined on Youtube (I wanted to compare "America" to "God Save the King") that a) We stole the song from them (NOT true, by the way), and b) that the British Empire was "never defeated." NEVER defeated? Oh, Dear... That would be News to General George Washington now, wouldn't it?

Posted by: CoolCzech at April 29, 2011 01:21 PM (kUaEF)

209

Paid $4.15 yesterday.

Yup, it went up .15 centst overnight. I put a sticky on the pump when I fileld up yesterday morning and when I drove by the station this morning I could see from the road that it was still there (of course I used a girlie hot pink post-it! that'll get attention!)

Posted by: laceyunderalls at April 29, 2011 01:21 PM (pLTLS)

210 Their advice: shop around to find the lowest gas prices around town.

Posted by: laceyunderalls at April 29, 2011 06:13 PM (pLTLS)

Here are your orders for winning the war.

Eliminate the enemy.

Okay, also, try to do better than you are currently doing.

And, please win, thank you.

Posted by: Red Command at April 29, 2011 01:21 PM (bxiXv)

211 102Are we smarter than this?

Apparently not, or we wouldn't put up post after post that effectively does our damnedest to split conservatives in two over an issue that after three years has been shown time and again not to be a liability for us otherwise. [...]

Posted by: The War Between the Undead States at April 29, 2011 05:41 PM (FYCiJ)

It could be worse; it could be post after post of "purist/pragmatist" cockslaping fests.  We're probably due for a bout of those within several months.

Posted by: Herr Blcher at April 29, 2011 01:23 PM (NHt3s)

212 The dollar is struggling to hold above 73
Oil is pushing 114
I hope you folks have been stocking up on food and stuff, cause things don't look good.


Posted by: MarkC at April 29, 2011 01:23 PM (yPPVC)

213

Obama gets a laugh, at everyones expense, damn i hate that man.

Posted by: willow at April 29, 2011 01:23 PM (h+qn8)

214 I could care less about Stanley Ann; but her father must have been a big asshole cause he named her Stanley.

Posted by: PatriotWI at April 29, 2011 06:13 PM (BqdfG)

And the really pathetic part is that Stanley Ann - who considers her middle name, Ann, to be her real name - then names her kid Barack Hussein and he goes on to claim that using his middle name, Hussein, at all, is outright racism and bigotry.

That whole screwed up family has name issues all over the place.  It's like a disease.

You are right on the mark about Stanley Ann's dad.  He was a selfish prick of the first order, to make the FIRST name of his daughter "Stanley".  If he really had that much of a compulsion to be perverse, he could have at least put the Stanley in the middle.  He must have loved calling her "Stanley".

That was one sick family.  I mean, seriously.

Posted by: iknowtheleft at April 29, 2011 01:24 PM (G/MYk)

215 I have developed the habit of filling my truck tanks whenever the opportunity presents itself, rather than waiting until they are empty, since the price will probably go up daily.

I'm starting to feel like I'm taking my wheelbarrow of Marks to buy bread.

Posted by: toby928 at April 29, 2011 01:24 PM (evdj2)

216 I'm not bitchin' about the gas prices. Hell, every time I fill up my gas tank the value of my car doubles! How cool is that? Oh, wait a minute... shit.

Posted by: Dang at April 29, 2011 01:24 PM (TXKVh)

217 So we are not supposed to question the document or any of the people involved? Really? The same folks that sold us the Porkulus and Obamacare? We are supposed to just go "Yep, looks good!" and move long our way?

No you can disbelieve all you want. What I hope you realize is that, placing emotion aside, at this point the authenticity of that document is irrelevant. We couldn't use any claims of non-authenticity that were not absolutely and completely inarguable, to either unseat Obama nor win the 2012 election. And continueing this topic could hurt us politically. So I personally am asking that you let this go, so that we can spend our precious MBM time bitching about $4 gas and 9% unemployment, stagflation, deficit, high taxes, and national debt.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose at April 29, 2011 01:25 PM (0q2P7)

218 Just up all night with nightmares of making High Friction love on the Kitchen Counters You haven't engaged in any chrisitian hendricks (or insert boobehs of your choice here) mental distraction? i relied on that dirty scandi prince last nite. it was easier than looking up pics of gerard butler on the interwebz

Posted by: bebe's boobs destroy at April 29, 2011 01:25 PM (YEwSM)

219

Left My notes today.

Posted by: Post It Gorilla at April 29, 2011 01:26 PM (CyPWX)

220 Mark, a crappy cheapest (with who knows what in it)prepackaged 5lb.  hamburger roll, 13. 89 today ugh.

Posted by: willow at April 29, 2011 01:26 PM (h+qn8)

221 I have developed the habit of filling my truck tanks whenever the opportunity presents itself, rather than waiting until they are empty, since the price will probably go up daily.

The first symptom of hyperinflation...
The fear of inflation starts driving the speed of money up.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose at April 29, 2011 01:26 PM (0q2P7)

222 I would also add that these "credibility" arguments regarding the techguy can equally be leveled against ex-Governor Lingle, current Governor Abercrombie, former Hawaii DOH Director Fukino, Hawaii Attorney General Wisch, FactCheck.org, snopes.com, CNN and the MSM generally. All told demonstrable lies about nature, existence, contents and law relevant to the birth certificate. The birthers' distrust regarding the official and press representations that had been made about original records was fully justified until at least Wednesday, and argument about why additional forensic investigations should proceed have merit based on the past record of deceit. But I will abandon it because it won't get any where. I would have been like trying to convince people that JFK was a drug-addled whoremonger who won a Pulitzer Prize for a ghostwritten book. Who would ever believe that?

Posted by: Average Joe at April 29, 2011 01:27 PM (bN5ZU)

223 Sorry I keep harping on the gas stories. I have a hefty commute each week. It's starting to take a toll on my sanity and my wallet.

Posted by: laceyunderalls at April 29, 2011 01:27 PM (pLTLS)

224 "56 MikeTheMoose: "But we already know [BO is willing to liecheatandsteal to win] with 99.99% certainty anyway.

So before we get into forensics... CAN ANYONE EXPLAIN WHY I SHOULD CARE?"

We may know that. Not all Americans do. These suspicions provide doubt and diminish Present Saysomething's "likeability" quotient. He becomes more toxic not just because of policy but because of who he is way behind the teleprompter. This is just part of the vetting he never got as a candidate and a flavor the populace never tasted.

Posted by: AnonymousDrivel at April 29, 2011 05:29 PM (RUDDk) "


Finally a few coherent thoughts. Thanks

Ace, I gotta say, sometimes you're really good. Other times? not so much...


I have always thought believed felt that if we could get the 8 million bystanders to the boot next time the bamster is toast.

But, I am impatient. I want the lier in chief GONE NOW! My fantasy was that the bonehead speaker would file the articles of impeachment on day one. Now I'm hoping he files the papers before I die. What if the congress(both houses) does absolutely nothing between now and January 2013 except try Barry Dunham for 'other high crimes and misdemeanors' and if the senate doesn't convict, file again and again and again? I don't care how long the trial takes because IMPEACHMENT is the fastest way to get rid of the won.


And while I'm on the subject, can we all lose this crap about what a crime is or whether or not barry did it? That is totally irrelevant. The House impeaches. The Senate votes. The precedent goes home. They could charge that his smile was crooked or their beers went flat. IT JUST DOESN'T MATTER!

Posted by: Blacksmith8 at April 29, 2011 01:27 PM (Q1qy3)

225 U.S. energy policy:

1.  Shop around.

2.  Proper tire pressure.

3.  Drilling loans to Brazil.

Yeah, with DOE, we're TOTALLY getting our money's worth.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at April 29, 2011 01:28 PM (7utQ2)

226

@220: "Obama gets a laugh, at everyones expense, damn i hate that man."

Anyone else imagine that he laughs like me?

Posted by: Louis Skolnick at April 29, 2011 01:28 PM (xy9wk)

227 2012 I'm really hoping Paul Ryan runs. Impressive his town halls the last week. I also like Allen West. Need Ryan though to sell the budget.

Speaking of fakes though. Wouldn't someone in the CIA have the know how to make some kick ass counterfeit documents? I sure hope they would be able too.  I don't care about the BC now, but like for witness protection don't they need to make stuff up?

So Ace did you see Allen West's interview today with Beck?

Posted by: PatriotWI at April 29, 2011 01:28 PM (BqdfG)

228 4.04 here. Down from 4.14 the other day. Monday was 3.94. Gives ya whiplash with all the changing.

Posted by: lurker at April 29, 2011 01:28 PM (ETQWR)

229

If any of you are scuba divers...you'd know "Krazy Karl" from his days on : Scubaboard, Spearboard, TheDecoStop etc. where he most often posted (and was subsequently banned by each in turn) as "Genesis".

He was a loose cannon advocating the most insane of ideas regarding certification and training for things such as cave diving and closed circuit rebreathers.  He felt that all of it was just a complete scam to keep him from the caves and to extract money from his pocket instead of a system designed to keep him alive.

Oh the massive posts and "expert" posturing were legendary.  It always struck me as funny that he simply moved his "schtick" to economics and politics, two areas in which bushit and bafflegab often go unpunished by those who know better.

In each case...Karl's bluster has eventually been outted.

Posted by: Brian in BC at April 29, 2011 01:28 PM (+rU6e)

230

 i relied on that dirty scandi prince last nite. it was easier than looking up pics of gerard butler on the interwebz

 

...the guys you 'ettes choose give me hope that I'm not nearly as fugly as I think I am!

Posted by: garrett at April 29, 2011 01:29 PM (jyGn7)

231 203 Paid $4.15 yesterday. I cussed. A lot.
______

I paid 4.29 this morning. I was upset that I didn't bother to fill up yesterday, when gas was cheap at 4.25.

Posted by: Anachronda at April 29, 2011 01:29 PM (6fER6)

232

@Quilly Mammoth: Not sure what your point is, or if you have one.

Posted by: CTN at April 29, 2011 05:45 PM (J+Ksi)

Simple, you are wrong in your analysis of the dpi.  The dpi of the background will be exactly the dpi of the gray scale  used to make (again, do you know how photo-offset printing works) the blank document. The dpi of the typing will be the same as the resolution of the scanner.

Since the typing is a solid, no dpi, the scanned version will change it.  That's how photo-offset works.  On government documents usually a single plate is used.  A gray scale "filter" is placed over the original.  In this way a solid is converted to a pattern so it will print shades. 

This is not a new problem, it is the result of people used to the digital environment.  The same argument you make has been made about scans of other, similar documents inteh past.



Posted by: Quilly Mammoth at April 29, 2011 01:30 PM (EcAS1)

233

Anyone else imagine that he laughs like me?

Posted by: Louis Skolnick

haha

Posted by: willow at April 29, 2011 01:30 PM (h+qn8)

234 I paid 4.29 this morning. I was upset that I didn't bother to fill up yesterday, when gas was cheap at 4.25. Posted by: Anachronda at April 29, 2011 06:29 PM (6fER6) I only paid $3.20--oh wait that was for my Capeccino at DD. Never mind

Posted by: nevergiveup at April 29, 2011 01:31 PM (i6RpT)

235 The fear of inflation starts driving the speed of money up.

Well, I'll just have to give money a speeding ticket, won't I. Think of all the revenue we'll generate.

Posted by: Sheriff Joe at April 29, 2011 01:31 PM (uqJo6)

236 This freaking Birther thing is less exciting than watching a Star Wars prequel. I've lost all feelings in my extremities and am losing the will to live. Help me, Obi-Wan Kenobi, you are my only hope!

Posted by: The Robot Devil at April 29, 2011 01:31 PM (g3OU+)

237 For the guy who opined the birth certificate looks "like crap," can I ask how many Hawaiian long-form birth certificates you've personally inspected? 0? Is zero about right? More than zero? I just want to know your expertise here, based upon which you can confidently opine upon which of them look "like crap" and which might look real. it's so odd, we have so many document experts with arcane specialities so suddenly! We're swimming in them!

Posted by: ace at April 29, 2011 01:31 PM (nj1bB)

238

Somewhere in the Pliestocene Era, a brontosaurus is missing its walnut-sized brain.

Watch out people.  I'm off the shitty iPad and back on a PC with mouse and keyboard.

Posted by: FUBAR at April 29, 2011 01:31 PM (1fanL)

239 I know some will disagree but this issue is a loser for the GOP. Suppose, for example, you find hard evidence that Obama was NOT a natural-born US citizen? What then? Will the revelation spur Obama to resign?  If not, then the only other recourse available is impeachment because once he was sworn in the normal law enforcement avenues became inapplicable. Believe this or not, impeachment over this issue is simply not in the cards.

Meanwhile, Obama pulls in his familiars in the media, Hollywood, and god-knows-who to make hay from this comedy of birth certificates.

All this shows is that there is apparently no real mechanism for enforcing the age or citizenship status of our Constitution, at least with regard to the Presidency. If so, then perhaps that should be addressed.

Here we have a president who many people want to like but is even more incompetent than Jimmy Carter (and this does not bode well for the future if this election of Jimmy Carter Class is a trend) and as leftwing as they come. Whatever many saw in him, especially from the "independent" side, they have now been disabused of their notions. Obama has lost the "independent" vote, never had the conservative vote, and is in danger of killing all enthusiasm in many on the liberal side. He cannot win against a credible GOP candidate.

But he could certainly turn this citizenship debacle to his favor and perhaps whip up the liberal base. Even some who are now disinclined to vote for him again might suddenly develop some sympathy for him if they begin to perceive a piling-on. We don't want that.

Please keep in mind, too, that it is not beyond Democrats to foster these 3rd Party Candidates, like Ross Perot, in order to beat the GOP on the electoral count. Trump is no damn conservative, I don't care what anyone says or writes, but he is a masterful opportunist. He has threatened to run as an indpendent if he does not get the GOP nomination. I'm not sure it is an idle threat and this may all fit Democrat plans. With Trump in the game, there is a small percentage who will vote for him that might otherwise vote GOP (you can guess who these might be) while Obama will pick up the rest. Bill Clinton won both times with less than 50% of the popular vote for this very reason.

If we spend too much time and effort "snipe hunting", we're going to play right into their hands.


Posted by: Full Moon at April 29, 2011 01:31 PM (DtbEv)

240 @156: "I'm more interested in Ok, nobody slap me please. IIRC, isn't that one of the conspiracy theories? that his supposed connecticut ss# used to belong to a formerly live person?

Posted by: bebe's boobs destroy at April 29, 2011 01:32 PM (YEwSM)

241 222 I have developed the habit of filling my truck tanks whenever the opportunity presents itself, rather than waiting until they are empty, since the price will probably go up daily.
__________

Ah. Playing the futures market, I see.

Clearly, you're one of those evil speculators that is driving up the price of oil.

Posted by: Anachronda at April 29, 2011 01:32 PM (6fER6)

242 And, speaking of market prices, anybody see Soros yesterday at Cato make an absolute fool out of himself pretending to be a deep thinker, trying to claim Hayek was a Chicago School economist, and attempting to match wits with Richard Epstein?  It's probably somewhere on C-Span's web site.

How did this sad old (Spooky Dude) fool ever become a billionaire and crash the Pound Sterling?  Maybe he is losing his mind . . .

Posted by: filbert at April 29, 2011 01:33 PM (smvTK)

243

maybe we should actually hire a document inspector, get this over with.

i have 4.62 cents left this week. i'm game.

Posted by: willow at April 29, 2011 01:33 PM (h+qn8)

244

OT: Some much needed Friday humor...

http://tinyurl.com/yd6383y

Posted by: Dr. Varno at April 29, 2011 01:33 PM (QMtmy)

245

That was one sick family.  I mean, seriously.

Posted by: iknowtheleft at April 29, 2011 06:24 PM (G/MYk)

When the history books are written about why Obama was such a fail, (yeah, I know) that will be number one excuse.

Posted by: ErikW at April 29, 2011 01:33 PM (/9K4i)

246

Here's a link to one of Karl's posts on his own board (which he created after getting the boot from every other board...just look at the similarity of "expert"

http://tinyurl.com/3b5b2bv

Posted by: Brian in BC at April 29, 2011 01:33 PM (+rU6e)

247 If I was that devious cocksucker sucker of cock Obama, I'd have had someone in the Juicebox Brigade take the real birth certificate, scan it, and then fuck with it to make it look like it had been tampered with before posting it on the White House website.

Not alter the contents, mind you, but just go in and give it a nudge here or there with PhotoShop.

Posted by: Andy at April 29, 2011 01:33 PM (5Rurq)

248 >>>The thing is, in the court of public opinion, them presenting something that 'looks like crap' or, as I say 'looks like a three dollar bill' can actually resonate with some people. In which direction does it resonate? Does it resonate in your favor? Or do you leave people thinking you're a bad combination of being simultaneously paranoid and gullible? I have no doubts it resonates. I'll tell you, it's resonating with me right now. What also resonates with me is people whining "Why post about this and divide the paaaarty" when the fucking birthers will not let a fucking thread go without talking up their latest stupid theory.

Posted by: ace at April 29, 2011 01:33 PM (nj1bB)

249 For the guy who opined the birth certificate looks "like crap," can I ask how many Hawaiian long-form birth certificates you've personally inspected?

Posted by: ace at April 29, 2011 06:31 PM (nj1bB)

Dude.  You're interfering with his Truth.

Posted by: FUBAR at April 29, 2011 01:33 PM (1fanL)

250 here's a good one...

....how about you bloggers stop hassling 'birthers' who wanted answers to legitimate questions? no doubt there are kooks out there, but alot of fellow right wingers are acting like we're ALL kooks for wanting to know...

....its not like we believe in global warming or 911 conspiracies etc...

the questions had merit, they were answered. now that its out of the way, i wanna know MORE. so big fucking deal.

....and we WONDER why we lose elections...(dont point to the wee little 'victory' we had in november lest i point and laugh in ur direction...and eye roll).

Posted by: skr8 outta at April 29, 2011 01:34 PM (zcTu+)

251 of course another side benefit of the birther issue is seeing teh stupid emerge from the libtards.  Case in point:

1. they try to prove birtherism = racism by claiming "this never would have occurred to McCain!!!" until you point out to them that someone actually did sue & go to court to force a ruling that McCain really is a natural born citizen too
2. they say "the birthers are clearly idiots, do they really think Obama would have passed an FBI background check if his birth certificate isn't legit?"  teh stoopid, it is strong

Posted by: chemjeff at April 29, 2011 01:36 PM (czcue)

252 Brian, Hah, thanks for the background. The internet is full of experts. It's also full of 6'4" diamond-cut studs, and gorgeous 110 pound women with 40 pound jugs. Just ASK them-- they'll tell you!!!!!

Posted by: ace at April 29, 2011 01:36 PM (nj1bB)

253 the fucking birthers will not let a fucking thread go without talking up their latest stupid theory.

Wait, I thought it had gone meta. Like we were making fun of birthers by acting like birthers.

I'm feeling like that kid at the concert on the simpsons

Kid 1:  Dude, are you being ironic
Kid 2:  I don't know anymore.

Posted by: toby928 at April 29, 2011 01:36 PM (evdj2)

254 "Snipe hunt" is a pretty good description of the birth certificate issue.

Yes, snipes exist.  Yes, you can hunt them.

Yes, snipe hunts are most often used to make fools of people who let themselves be sucked into them.

We have bigger game to hunt than snipes here, I think.

Posted by: filbert at April 29, 2011 01:36 PM (smvTK)

255 here's a good one...

....how about you bloggers stop hassling 'birthers' who wanted answers to legitimate questions? no doubt there are kooks out there, but alot of fellow right wingers are acting like we're ALL kooks for wanting to know...

....its not like we believe in global warming or 911 conspiracies etc...

the questions had merit, they were answered. now that its out of the way, i wanna know MORE. so big fucking deal.

....and we WONDER why we lose elections...(dont point to the wee little 'victory' we had in november lest i point and laugh in ur direction...and eye roll).

Posted by: skr8 outta at April 29, 2011 06:34 PM (zcTu

Here's a question: why is the American flag waving in the picture taken of the Moon "landing"?  And why can't we see the flag from Earth?  And why are there no stars visible?

OK, that's three questions.  I'm just asking.

Posted by: FUBAR at April 29, 2011 01:37 PM (1fanL)

256

"And stop making outlandish claims based upon nothing but 'I think the font in that four looks 'hinky'" and "this guy on the internet told me it was fake'?"

O.K. That's All Well and Good!

But seriously.......It's Fake.....I saw it on the internet.....No really.....Trust Me!

Posted by: Jimi at April 29, 2011 01:38 PM (JMsOK)

257 Posted by: ace at April 29, 2011 06:31 PM (nj1bB)

I am an expert on at least two things: what I want to drink in the next 30 minutes, and what topic bores the shit out of me.

1. A perfect Manhattan made with Bulleit rye
2. The non-issue of the fucking birth certificate.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo (NJConservative) at April 29, 2011 01:39 PM (LH6ir)

258

Posted by: ace at April 29, 2011 06:36 PM (nj1bB)

I'm only 6' 2" and more of a Cabachon Cut than a Solitaire.

Posted by: garrett at April 29, 2011 01:39 PM (jyGn7)

259 I have a theory that goes Trump is a fellow moron. Like when Ace gets fired up and says how it is. The swear words, it's what makes Die Hard 3 really suck cause it didn't have any. Use them, and it just gets you fired up. So I think Trump noticed it working here and used it.

Donald, I have a great idea. Let's have a new apprentice show with only bloggers. I'm sure you could come up with some great shit for them. Team Moron would be so awesome. Selling pudding shirts and making the liberal bloggers look so stupid.

Posted by: PatriotWI at April 29, 2011 01:40 PM (BqdfG)

260 --can I ask how many Hawaiian long-form birth certificates you've personally

WND has had a few up for some time.  A couple from the same day, I think (the Nordyke twins?).

The people questioning this new jpg pdf aren't hurting anyone or anything.  It's a low-level murmur in the background as actual experts are examing the pdf (I would gather).  It'll all shake out in a few days or a week.

Meanwhile, the important eligibility issue has always been the one of multiple nationality, which is still a question that has to be resolved by the SCOTUS or by amendment.  This is a question of the utmost importance and is really a question of what America is.  This question has been intentionally ignored by almost everyone (except for a number of us 'birthers') but it is what this nation is really contending with, right now, as it has lost nearly all sense of itself.

Posted by: iknowtheleft at April 29, 2011 01:40 PM (G/MYk)

261 the whole BC thing was filled with holes from the get-go. now finally 2 yrs into the dummy FINALLY releases it. obama was acting silly trying to keep it under wraps.

yeah, lets spend loads of cash to keep it concealed....its a fucking birth certificate for christs sakes. answer the silly questions and show it already. he waits until a big deal is made out of it then brings it out.

fucking idiot.

now we got moron right wingers getting on TV acting as if they KNEW all along, they can go suck a cock with their arrogant attitudes, they didnt know jack shit just like we didnt know jack shit.

now we all know, and it couldve been resolved two yrs ago....


Posted by: skr8 outta at April 29, 2011 01:40 PM (zcTu+)

262 It's also full of 6'4" diamond-cut studs, and gorgeous 110 pound women with 40 pound jugs.

Just ASK them-- they'll tell you!!!!!

That's why we always demand pictures!

Okay that's one of the reasons why.

The lesser one, actually.

Posted by: The Moron Horde at April 29, 2011 01:40 PM (uqJo6)

263
....and we WONDER why we lose elections...(dont point to the wee little 'victory' we had in november lest i point and laugh in ur direction...and eye roll).

Posted by: skr8 outta at April 29, 2011 06:34 PM (zcTu+)

And look how good that is without the Senate.  In the words of Winston Wolf..

Posted by: Quilly Mammoth at April 29, 2011 01:40 PM (EcAS1)

264
the questions had merit,

No they didn't.

they were answered.

Yes they were.  So I guess we're done then . . .

i wanna know MORE.

Sigh.  Actually, you know what, you're right.  Clearly they ARE hiding something.  I am an expert on Hawaiian long-form birth certificates, and am certain there is an item on there about distinguishing birth marks.  Obviously they erased that line or else we'd all know about the three 6's on his head.


Posted by: Paul Zummo at April 29, 2011 01:40 PM (DScmV)

265

He was a loose cannon advocating the most insane of ideas regarding certification and training for things such as cave diving and closed circuit rebreathers.  He felt that all of it was just a complete scam to keep him from the caves and to extract money from his pocket instead of a system designed to keep him alive.

 

I've dived the cenotes around Playa de Karmen and that's as close to cave diving I want to get.

Posted by: Soona at April 29, 2011 01:41 PM (z3bs4)

266

Posted by: filbert at April 29, 2011 06:36 PM (smvTK)

 

This.  (Always drove me nuts, that phrase.)

.

Posted by: garrett at April 29, 2011 01:41 PM (jyGn7)

267

ace in fairness, i think there were reasons to believe Obama would lie about something as simple as a BC, because

HE held it back

took being a partisan lefty jerk, more seriously than He takes being Pressident.

and He lies about anything , anytime He's given an opportunity.

His Dad was also a loser, but He seemed to want to Be Him the most of anyone in His life.

He gave people reason to distrust and to believe He didn't love His country , many times (rev wright, bombing villages, standing in other countries hating on america and her faults) so this wasn't a stretch.

 

Posted by: willow at April 29, 2011 01:41 PM (h+qn8)

268

....how about you bloggers stop hassling 'birthers' who wanted answers to legitimate questions? no doubt there are kooks out there, but alot of fellow right wingers are acting like we're ALL kooks for wanting to know...

....its not like we believe in global warming or 911 conspiracies etc...

the questions had merit, they were answered. now that its out of the way, i wanna know MORE. so big fucking deal.

You acknowledge that their questions were answered, it's out of the way... but you still want to engage in your "just asking questions" conspiracy theory bullshit.  Walks like a kook, looks like a kook, quacks like a kook...

Posted by: Hollowpoint at April 29, 2011 01:42 PM (SY2Kh)

269 What we need to see is the passport.  When Barry was a senator he went to Russia with Lugar, and only Barry was detained at customs due to  questions about his passport.  If Russia has questions, so do we.

Posted by: chillin the most at April 29, 2011 01:43 PM (6IV8T)

270 This anti-birtherism has the fervent zeal of birtherism.

Posted by: The King Is Naked at April 29, 2011 01:44 PM (xs5wK)

271 Of course, we could be looking at what Obama is doing now, now that he has successfully diverted our attention to fighting amongst ourselves.... is he getting ready to name a new czar or something?

Posted by: chemjeff at April 29, 2011 01:44 PM (czcue)

272 little girl in her classroom that has been getting six pieces of tomato and a deviled egg for her lunch this week.

I promised you CHANGE.

Posted by: Barry the Lightwrker at April 29, 2011 01:44 PM (uqJo6)

273 "No they didn't."

...yes they did. dont worry man, i wont think ur a kooky-wooky.

"Yes they were.  So I guess we're done then . . ."

...not me, i also wanna see his grades. bush showed his didnt he?  this president was touted as the smartest guy in american history. fine, PROVE it.

...and again, you go on acting as if you KNEW all along!

lol get the fuck out of here already you stupid ass.

you people kill me.

and i love how ace used to state that this story "had legs" but now that its disproven....*gasp* even ace knew it was a hoax!!! because you know....ace has a blog....(which basically is a carbon copy of other blogs) and he has the amrts *eye roll yet again*




Posted by: skr8 outta at April 29, 2011 01:45 PM (zcTu+)

274 Milk that Tit.

Posted by: Post It Gorilla at April 29, 2011 01:45 PM (CyPWX)

275

why is the American flag waving in the picture taken of the Moon "landing"?  And why can't we see the flag from Earth?  And why are there no stars visible?

Yeah, I figured nobody would have answers to my questions.  You spineless jellyfish are afraid of the truth.

Posted by: FUBAR at April 29, 2011 01:45 PM (1fanL)

276 We have bigger game to hunt than snipes here, I think.

Posted by: filbert at April 29, 2011 06:36 PM (smvTK)

Snipe hunts are a rite of passage in my neck of the woods.

When boys reach puberty, the old guys set up a big night for the Snipe Hunt! A big bonfire is lit and good food is BBQ'd.

You are given a flashlight and a brown paper bag. To catch the snipe, you have to run through the woods yelling, "SNIPE, SNIPE!" because that's what lures them to you. At that point, you pounce on them with the paper bag.

Of course that never happens and the old guys who have been drinking beer are laughing their ass off when you come back pissed off and realize that you've been had.

Don't believe everything you hear. Life lesson learned.

Posted by: ErikW at April 29, 2011 01:46 PM (/9K4i)

277  chemjeff , I figure He is going to spread more wealth/power to his cronies this weekend , and doesn't want us watching.

Posted by: willow at April 29, 2011 01:47 PM (h+qn8)

278 People trying to find proof that this new birth certificate is fake should give up.  If it's real, the search is pointless.  But for the sake of argument let's assume that it is fake.  Let's also assume that He didn't even start working on it until He was asked for it, and that He has spent no more money hiring forgers than He has paid lawyers to fight the release of the "real" one.  I think these are pretty generous assumptions.

Now... if you had three years and over two million dollars, don't you think you could come up with a one-page forgery that could pass any test you could throw at it?  Especially if they examiners were limited to just a computer-scanned image?

I'm not saying that this birth certificate is fake - just that if it is, I doubt anyone could prove it.  So just tell Him in your best parental baby-talk voice "Oh, you're such a big boy!  You found your birth certificate!  We are so proud of you!" and then find something more tangible to nail Him with.

Posted by: Norcross at April 29, 2011 01:47 PM (SRl3C)

279

now we all know, and it couldve been resolved two yrs ago....

It was resolved two years ago to the satisfaction of all but a small minority of the uninformed and those prone to believing in conspiracy theories.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at April 29, 2011 01:47 PM (SY2Kh)

280 little girl in her classroom that has been getting six pieces of tomato and a deviled egg for her lunch this week.

We can't keep eating all we want.  The rest of the world isn't down with that.

Posted by: Barack Ka'anna'pali Obama, Hawaii Native at April 29, 2011 01:47 PM (1fanL)

281 "You acknowledge that their questions were answered, it's out of the way... but you still want to engage in your "just asking questions" conspiracy theory bullshit. "

lol what conspiracy?

i accept his birth certificate, i just wanted to see it. big deal.

whats wrong with seeing his grades?

you dolts are priceless.


Posted by: skr8 outta at April 29, 2011 01:47 PM (zcTu+)

282 The truth is out there ...

Posted by: Fox Mulder at April 29, 2011 01:47 PM (5Rurq)

283

I still want to know if Obama's copy of 'Songs in the Key of Life' has the original insert and the accompanying Bonus EP...Release your ENTIRE Record collection, Mr. Obama. 

What are you trying to hide?

Posted by: garrett at April 29, 2011 01:48 PM (jyGn7)

284

Milk that Tit.

What did you get?

 

Posted by: Post It Gorilla at April 29, 2011 01:48 PM (CyPWX)

285 "It was resolved two years ago to the satisfaction of all but a small minority of the uninformed..."

--- sure it was....i shouldve consulted you obi wan.

alot of people didnt think it was resolved then, this blog host included....

but you? nahhhhh youre just too sharp....

Posted by: skr8 outta at April 29, 2011 01:49 PM (zcTu+)

286     @40 CTN at April 29, 2011 05:23 PM (J+Ksi)

Nerd

Posted by: Barky The Magnificent at April 29, 2011 01:49 PM (yPTcS)

287

@278,

Yep.......there all kinda stuff we get to move onto now.

1.) The Transcripts

2.) The Passports

3.) The Social Security Numbers

4.) The Taxes

5.) The Drug and Homo Stuff

6.) The fact that we have no evidence what so ever about Obama saying that his main goal in life was to destroy America

7.) The fact there are factless rumors that Obama spits at babies', kicks Dogs', and eats Cats

etc...etc....etc....etc....etc..

It's gonna be a fun 18 months!

Posted by: Jimi at April 29, 2011 01:49 PM (JMsOK)

288

It's also full of 6'4" diamond-cut studs, and gorgeous 110 pound women with 40 pound jugs.

 

5' 11".

And 10 of those are pure COCK.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at April 29, 2011 01:50 PM (lGFXF)

289

It was resolved two years ago to the satisfaction of all but a small minority of the uninformed and those prone to believing in conspiracy theories.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at April 29, 2011 06:47 PM (SY2Kh)

It was not resolved two years ago.  Now, you're just being silly.

Posted by: iknowtheleft at April 29, 2011 01:50 PM (G/MYk)

290 according to the metric system

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at April 29, 2011 01:50 PM (lGFXF)

291

lol what conspiracy?

i accept his birth certificate, i just wanted to see it. big deal.

whats wrong with seeing his grades?

There's nothing wrong with wanting to see his grades, but that's not the topic being discussed.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at April 29, 2011 01:50 PM (SY2Kh)

292 Would have been funny if Obama had released the Birth Certificate in a 200 piece jig-saw puzzle.

Posted by: PatriotWI at April 29, 2011 01:50 PM (BqdfG)

293 Would have been funny if Obama had released the Birth Certificate in a 200 piece jig-saw puzzle.

Posted by: PatriotWI at April 29, 2011 06:50 PM (BqdfG)

LOL.  But Barky just isn't even close to that bright.

Posted by: iknowtheleft at April 29, 2011 01:52 PM (G/MYk)

294

It was resolved two years ago to the satisfaction of all but a small minority of the uninformed and those prone to believing in conspiracy theories.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at April 29, 2011 06:47 PM (SY2Kh)

 

Oh really?  You're saying that the majority of voters saw this document two years ago?  Where have I been?

Posted by: Soona at April 29, 2011 01:52 PM (z3bs4)

295

There's nothing wrong with wanting to see his grades, but that's not the topic being discussed.

Posted by: Hollowpoint

why we've already been told He is a scholar?

srsly . He is .

Posted by: willow at April 29, 2011 01:52 PM (h+qn8)

296 "Yep.......there all kinda stuff we get to move onto now."

....and why not? whats the big ass deal?

so he shows his grades, ooooooohhhhh

so the moron in the white house shows his passport, WOWEE

so president propeller head shows papers he wrote while in college...big fucking doo...

i could do all of that within 10 minutes, no problems...none at all. this president goes to great lengths to avoid it....its fucking retarded. so show it, walk away and shut the fuck up.

stop trying to act high and mighty already. dont embarrass yourself like even ace has with this whole thing.

Posted by: skr8 outta at April 29, 2011 01:53 PM (zcTu+)

297 Hey, whatever happened to a moratorium until 48 hours after an event? I suggest a cooling off period.

Posted by: The Robot Devil at April 29, 2011 01:54 PM (g3OU+)

298 i have been more interested in His pay to play schemes, Soros and Brazil oil for examply. and does He have a slush fund He is dipping into sharing with Cohorts? conspiracy could be, but hey, did Soros get ok'd to drill or not, while we are shut down?

Posted by: willow at April 29, 2011 01:56 PM (h+qn8)

299

You bunch of chump drones.  Of course nobody will answer my questions about the Moon "landing."  That's ok, I know the truth.  You pitiful suckers just keep your nose to the grindstone and ignore the elephant on the Moon.

Dolts.

Posted by: FUBAR at April 29, 2011 01:56 PM (1fanL)

300 It was not resolved two years ago. Now, you're just being silly.

To most- yes, it was.

He released his "COLB", the document the state of HI issues upon request for a birth certificate.

It was confirmed that the newspaper birth announcement was printed in response to information submitted by the hospital and Dept of Health.

The HI Dept of Health director (a Republican) testified that the records showing him to be born in HI were correct.

This was all available two years ago. Meanwhile, there was zero legitimate evidence to suggest that there was "something to hide".

The release of his "long form" BC doesn't really change anything- it didn't include any relevant information that wasn't already known two years ago.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at April 29, 2011 01:58 PM (SY2Kh)

301 Republicans are on the moon?

Posted by: willow at April 29, 2011 01:58 PM (h+qn8)

302 It's happy hour on Friday, and Pat Caddell, Brian Dennehey, Honey Badger and I are smoking brandy dipped cigars and sipping highballs of cobra juice, convinced that nobody in his right mind should give a shit about this f*cking dreck.

Posted by: Fritz at April 29, 2011 01:59 PM (AN8d5)

303 sestak was a republican.

Posted by: willow at April 29, 2011 01:59 PM (h+qn8)

304

You bunch of chump drones.  Of course nobody will answer my questions about the Moon "landing."  That's ok, I know the truth.  You pitiful suckers just keep your nose to the grindstone and ignore the elephant on the Moon.

Dolts.

You believe the Moon exists?

Gullible sheeple.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at April 29, 2011 02:00 PM (SY2Kh)

305 Fritz heck i'm snorting thera flu the last couple of days. ugh, the weather.

Posted by: willow at April 29, 2011 02:00 PM (h+qn8)

306 of course heres FUBAR xomparing it to the friggin moon landing conspiracy.

showing a long form BC= 2.5 seconds. i have mine over here on my desk from PA. wow....real difficult to show!  why heck...it even has smudges on it!

and this fubar guy rthinks we're all a bunch of little venturas....

.....nincompoop is too pleasant of a term to describe you there fubar.

you deserve a moe-type slap to the face.

Posted by: skr8 outta at April 29, 2011 02:00 PM (zcTu+)

307

why we've already been told He is a scholar?

srsly . He is .

Posted by: willow at April 29, 2011 06:52 PM (h+qn

He taught Constititutional Law because he loves the Constititution because that's what makes America great.

He said so.

Posted by: ErikW at April 29, 2011 02:01 PM (/9K4i)

308

@307

Skr8,

Dude.......Chill!

I'm on your side. I can't say I was a Birther, but it defintely was important for him to produce that Birth Certificate. Now that he has done that....let's move on to the other stuff we would like to know about him...It's just that simple:

If he doesn't want to produce it...fine use it against him just as the Alisky-ites would use it against us. It's all in the way we ask....think of it as political theater. It the guys on our side that can't control themselves that leave a bad taste in everybody's mouth. Just ask persistantly and nicely, but don't make any accusations......and eventually he will be forced to produce all that stuff.

Now in the end it may backfire.....because for example, he was moved up thru Affirmative Action, and everybody knows it....so you know those Sissy Leftist Professors gave him excellent grades.

Posted by: Jimi at April 29, 2011 02:01 PM (JMsOK)

309

You bunch of chump drones.  Of course nobody will answer my questions about the Moon "landing."  That's ok, I know the truth.  You pitiful suckers just keep your nose to the grindstone and ignore the elephant on the Moon.

Dolts.

Posted by: FUBAR at April 29, 2011 06:56 PM (1fanL)

 

Oh yeah?  Well I have a question for you.  Why doesn't that flag the astronauts planted on Mars have thirteen stripes?

Posted by: Sheila Jackson Leigh at April 29, 2011 02:01 PM (z3bs4)

310 "This was all available two years ago. Meanwhile, there was zero legitimate evidence to suggest that there was "something to hide".

--- cool with me....so why didnt he just show the damn thing, fuck it.

whats the big dealio? he couldve made this speech long ago and had it out there.

.....he waits two yrs...then gives us a lecture....fuckin dumb.






Posted by: skr8 outta at April 29, 2011 02:03 PM (zcTu+)

311 sestak was a republican.

I gotta check here . . . are sleestak/Land Of The Lost jokes still in play?

Posted by: filbert at April 29, 2011 02:06 PM (smvTK)

312 "I'm on your side. I can't say I was a Birther, but it defintely was important for him to produce that Birth Certificate. Now that he has done that....let's move on to the other stuff we would like to know about him...It's just that simple:"

--- my apologies.

its just that ive been seeing alot of this across the blogosphere the last few days. commenters going at it, blog hosts on their pedestals pretending to be intellectuals, and talking heads telling me and others we should go hide under a rock.

it gets under your skin a little ya know?

Posted by: skr8 outta at April 29, 2011 02:06 PM (zcTu+)

313 The release of his "long form" BC doesn't really change anything- it didn't include any relevant information that wasn't already known two years ago.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at April 29, 2011 06:58 PM (SY2Kh)

It's not a matter of changing anything.  The original birth certificate is what people wanted to see, and part of what needed to be coughed up to help prove eligibility.  This document was owed America.  Not a summary.  Not hearsay.  We're talking about the Presidency of the United States.  And there are other documents that he owes America - documents that are necessary to establish whether this multiple national is a natural born citizen (which he isn't, but the SCOTUS has to rule on this).

These are the standard difficulties that we run into any time we've had a CiC who had a foreign father and grew up (adopted, likely) in another nation.  Every single time.

Posted by: iknowtheleft at April 29, 2011 02:07 PM (G/MYk)

314 Jimi said :

Dude.......Chill!

I'm on your side. I can't say I was a Birther, but it defintely was important for him to produce that Birth Certificate. Now that he has done that....let's move on to the other stuff we would like to know about him...It's just that simple

He needed to comply as other Presidential candidates have  He caused this mess by being a one left party jerk,playing with the population He is supposed to Lead in intergrity, I hope we play better next go , He's certainly not to be trusted, but the BC has arrived.

Posted by: willow at April 29, 2011 02:07 PM (h+qn8)

315 willow @ 278 well duh, that's kind of a given - I'm talking about something out of the ordinary, so that he can catch us off guard

Posted by: chemjeff at April 29, 2011 02:08 PM (QAJGa)

316

Huh, I added a couple extra tits to the Constitution. Both times.

I'm a spelling retard, forgive me.

Posted by: ErikW at April 29, 2011 02:08 PM (/9K4i)

317 woops second paragraph mine. on 326

Posted by: willow at April 29, 2011 02:08 PM (h+qn8)

318 Sorry, but the idea that wanting solid proof that your president is a citizen makes one a nut is in fact nuts.
This should have been settled long ago before the election.
I am not buying the latest conspiracy theory but after all the time and effort denying the people the right to certitude, I can't blame those who do.

Posted by: KDNY at April 29, 2011 02:08 PM (ECt2r)

319

@321

Skr8,

Because he was using it as a poltiical weapon in cooperation with the media. Didn't you do you homework assignment and read "Rules for Radicals?" The homework that was givin to you about two years ago? It's all in there.

Obama even admits that Saul Alisky is one of his hero's. Once you anderstand the political tactical manuvering that has been going on for the past twenty years, this whole Birth Certificate thing will be as clear as day to you.

We were using it as a Political Weapon too......it's just we were hoping that it would not see the light of day before the election, and that is the precise reason Obama  finally budged on it, because our strategy was starting to win, and he had gotten all the legs he could out of it.  

Posted by: Jimi at April 29, 2011 02:09 PM (JMsOK)

320 chemjeff, hell don't scare me with Different!

Posted by: willow at April 29, 2011 02:09 PM (h+qn8)

321 I am not buying the latest conspiracy theory but after all the time and effort denying the people the right to certitude, I can't blame those who do.

Posted by: KDNY

amen

Posted by: willow at April 29, 2011 02:10 PM (h+qn8)

322 Of course we're also convinced that what is of significant importance is that the Jugeared F*ckstick capitulated in the Pavlovian manner we knew only Michelle was capable of training him to do.

Posted by: Fritz at April 29, 2011 02:10 PM (AN8d5)

323 Erik, It's a living breathing, changing constitution.

Posted by: willow at April 29, 2011 02:11 PM (h+qn8)

324 @jimi

i agree.

but again, what bothers me is how the right stick their noses in the air because theyre afraid to be relegated to "conspiracy-kook' status.  as if they hadnt wondered at all about any of it.



Posted by: skr8 outta at April 29, 2011 02:12 PM (zcTu+)

325 Erik- Tits should always come in pairs. It's better that way.

Posted by: KDNY at April 29, 2011 02:14 PM (ECt2r)

326 Never say die guys! Don't worry there will be another idiotic theory to grab onto any minute! Evidence is for SUCKERS. Keep hope alive!

Posted by: DrewM. at April 29, 2011 02:14 PM (ehlWj)

327 "Never say die guys! Don't worry there will be another idiotic theory to grab onto any minute! Evidence is for SUCKERS. Keep hope alive!"

--- oh christ, another "smart-guy".

this blog is full of em today....expect more 'wit-filled' insults and vocabulary only used in a kevin smith film.

....retards.

Posted by: skr8 outta at April 29, 2011 02:17 PM (zcTu+)

328 Can we end this once and for all and just look at Wikipedia?  Because if it is on Wikipedia, there is no question that it may or may not be true.

Posted by: AndrewsDad at April 29, 2011 02:19 PM (C2//T)

329 Posted by: skr8 outta at April 29, 2011 07:17 PM (zcTu+)

Birthers, like Truthers and Trigers don't deserve to be taken seriously. You are all impervious to evidence so why should I pretend you are arguing in good faith?

If you insist on acting like a clown, don't be surprised when you get treated that way.

Posted by: DrewM. at April 29, 2011 02:21 PM (ehlWj)

330 "Birthers, like Truthers and Trigers don't deserve to be taken seriously. You are all impervious to evidence so why should I pretend you are arguing in good faith?

If you insist on acting like a clown, don't be surprised when you get treated that way."


--- for asking to see a birth certificate....which can be produced in less than two minutes.....there are loads of people running around believing in global warming...911 conspiracies, aliens in UFO's, 2011 mayan calendars....and your dumb ass thinks we're weird for wanting to see a friggin birth certificate....

....you sir, are a big lump of the stoopid.

now go and be smart on the internet you little genius.

Posted by: skr8 outta at April 29, 2011 02:23 PM (zcTu+)

331 Maybe if somebody could translate this into cobra, I could give a fuck.

Posted by: honey badger at April 29, 2011 02:23 PM (smvTK)

332 I think Moochelle is really a Thai tranny.  Prove me wrong.

Thanks for searing that vision into my brain... 


Posted by: Adolescent 12 Year Old Boy That Will Never Be Able To Have An Errection at April 29, 2011 02:24 PM (yPTcS)

333 >>>and i love how ace used to state that this story "had legs" but now that its disproven... Please quote me once ever suggesting Obama wasn't born in Hawaii. Every time this came up, I said it wasn't true. The only thing I ever bought on was the possibility there was something embarrassing on it (like Father: Unknown), because I didn't understand why he just didn't release the damn thing. A lot of you seem to have taken my statement "This is politically harmless" for "this is true, or might be true." I don't know how many times I have to say, over and over again, "This isn't true, you know" before the die-hard "I Want To Believe" contingent gets it that I'm not winking at them or dog whistling -- I am really saying "it's not true." Did you read my conspiracy theory post last weekend? I expressly demolished Birtherism. That was always my opinion. I just didn't feel like beating people up over it.

Posted by: ace at April 29, 2011 02:24 PM (nj1bB)

334 >>>You are all impervious to evidence so why should I pretend you are arguing in good faith? It's in good faith. Too much faith, actually. What it is is in bad *reason.* Faith? No, they mean it. But they believe it so hard that evidence is irrelevant.

Posted by: ace at April 29, 2011 02:25 PM (nj1bB)

335

@336

Skr8,

That's because we know that we do not have the "Comparative Advantage." The left has and always will have the Comparitive Advantage because they have control of the Media and the Education System. Not only do we have to win the hand when we are holding a pair deuces, we have to win it with grace, and then after we win we have tell the other side how good they are.

Remember who we are dealing with:

1.) Hardocre Radicals that will slit their own mothers throat to destroy the Capitalist System and hold on to Power

2.) Sissy PantyWaists who nearly shit themselves if they are forced to make a decision that does not give them Warm and Fuzzy feelings deep inside their Lions

Posted by: Jimi at April 29, 2011 02:26 PM (JMsOK)

336 One thing I guess I have to learn is maybe we DON'T have any nuance on our side. Apparently some people can't answer different questions with different answers. If they believe something, they expect all questions in that area to be answered the same way. "Str8" seems to think if I pose two questions: 1) Is it politically harmful to conspiracy-theorize that Obama wasn't born in Hawaii? 2) Was Obama born in Hawaii? Then if I say the answer to 1 is "no" then the answer to the other must be "no" too, because God forbid you actually think that a false belief isn't actually harmful. So I'll try to keep things simpler, so that some people, who can't seem to follow me when I parse issues into multiple questions, can't be led astray.

Posted by: ace at April 29, 2011 02:28 PM (nj1bB)

337 >>>and uh spending millions in legal fees? You know, that "estimate" comes from birthers themselves. We really have little idea how much Obama spent. North of zero, but probably south of "millions."

Posted by: ace at April 29, 2011 02:29 PM (nj1bB)

338 "Please quote me once ever suggesting Obama wasn't born in Hawaii. Every time this came up, I said it wasn't true."

---never said you did. not once.

"The only thing I ever bought on was the possibility there was something embarrassing on it (like Father: Unknown), because I didn't understand why he just didn't release the damn thing. "

---bingo. that means you had questions about the situation, nuthin wrong with that,

"Did you read my conspiracy theory post last weekend? I expressly demolished Birtherism. "

---yes i read it. yet you still had questions over it. again, nuthin wrong with that.

"That was always my opinion. I just didn't feel like beating people up over it. "

--- well youre not beating them out in the open of course. but stop pretending we're all beneath you for wanting to know a few things, im personally satisfied with seeing the thing, and  wouldnt mind seeing other records either. but your arrogance in the finality of it all is glaring. 



Posted by: skr8 outta at April 29, 2011 02:30 PM (zcTu+)

339 Look everybody it's Ace's very own Kilgore Trout. What's that taste like, Drew?

Posted by: KDNY at April 29, 2011 02:30 PM (ECt2r)

340 "So I'll try to keep things simpler, so that some people, who can't seem to follow me when I parse issues into multiple questions, can't be led astray."

---translating to= you and people like you skr8, are stupid. you cant understand what im saying.

....arrogance.

...its what happens on blogs methinks.

Posted by: skr8 outta at April 29, 2011 02:32 PM (zcTu+)

341 Posted by: ace at April 29, 2011 07:25 PM (nj1bB)

The 'bad faith' is they keep saying it's always about evidence or seeing the Holy Grail of the long form. Well, they get it and just move on to crazier and crazier shit.


Posted by: DrewM. at April 29, 2011 02:37 PM (ehlWj)

342 Posted by: KDNY at April 29, 2011 07:30 PM (ECt2r)

How do you know Ace and I are different people? Have you ever seen our birth certificates and run it by your own experts?

Layers man! Layers!

Posted by: DrewM. at April 29, 2011 02:39 PM (ehlWj)

343 "The 'bad faith' is they keep saying it's always about evidence or seeing the Holy Grail of the long form. Well, they get it and just move on to crazier and crazier shit."

---this is true.

its also true that some people declare themselves superior in all things because hey...they just knew all along!

ive only stated that it was nice to finally see the thing and end all doubt, and i got a deluge of insults with moon-landing conspiracies, x-file references and the like...

....its silly.

Posted by: skr8 outta at April 29, 2011 02:40 PM (zcTu+)

344 My one disagreement with Hollowpoint and Drew is after a while I started to doubt their purported motivation for Obama's withholding the birth certificate. They said "He either thinks it's beneath him, or it's racist, or it won't satisfy people anyway, or he's just winding people up." Eventually I felt that was too silly a reason for all this drama and that maybe there was something more (like Race: White) or something. I was wrong; they were right. Obama just was that much of a prick.

Posted by: ace at April 29, 2011 02:42 PM (nj1bB)

345 "Obama just was that much of a prick."

--- i agree wholeheartedly.

ive said it a zillion times. its a freakin' birth certificate....we're not talkin little green men and silvery discs in the stratosphere here....

....but other people would have you believe that.

Posted by: skr8 outta at April 29, 2011 02:44 PM (zcTu+)

346 >>>....arrogance. >>>...its what happens on blogs methinks. Arrogance is what I experience with people who do not have the self-awareness or maturity to consider the possibility they might be wrong. People who think their fucking FEEEEEELINGS are all so goddamned important, evidence fact and reason be damned, it's only fucking FEEEELINGS that count. Your FEEEEEEEEELING is that he was born outside of America and nothing will change that. You're right in your implication -- I do think I'm better than you. I think people who turn off their GOD-GIFTED powers of reason and discernment in favor of superstitions, hokum, and FEEEEEEELINGS are essentially living in sin.

Posted by: ace at April 29, 2011 02:45 PM (nj1bB)

347 >>>--- well youre not beating them out in the open of course. but stop pretending we're all beneath you for wanting to know a few things I'm not pretending. Before I was trying to be nice and conciliatory and find a way we could both live together comfortably with your self-delusion. Now I don't feel like that. I feel I've indulged this bullshit enough. I think at this point it's your turn to stop saying stupid shit, not my duty to keep pretending it's not stupid.

Posted by: ace at April 29, 2011 02:46 PM (nj1bB)

348 >>>And he's already mocking us. Must the bloggers continue to do the same? It's just engendering hurt feelings at this point.

Posted by: ace at April 29, 2011 02:47 PM (nj1bB)

349 "Your FEEEEEEEEELING is that he was born outside of America and nothing will change that."

---- huh? who? me? i said that? when? .....you got me mixed up with the thousand other commenters here.....never said that, not once.

"You're right in your implication -- I do think I'm better than you."

--- *sigh*

"I think people who turn off their GOD-GIFTED powers of reason and discernment in favor of superstitions, hokum, and FEEEEEEELINGS are essentially living in sin."

---arrogance= its what happens on blogs methinks.


Posted by: skr8 outta at April 29, 2011 02:48 PM (zcTu+)

350 >>>And he's already mocking us. Must the bloggers continue to do the same? It's just engendering hurt feelings at this point. To some extent you're right and I apologize. Maybe some just need some time to step back, reflect, and think, without the pressure of feeling that others are demanding they believe x or y. HOWEVER, droid, I constantly have shit in these threads of people continuing to try to psych each other up into believing new lies and new stupidities. I would prefer it if the subject was just dropped, without gloating or victory laps. But if people are going to keep peddling snake-oil and delusion, even now, then I'm going to have to say how stupid it is.

Posted by: ace at April 29, 2011 02:49 PM (nj1bB)

351

"Eh…almost like they don’t want the controversy to die down."


Of course not! It worked well for them, and good ole fashion race hustlers like Wonderful Media and President "small EARS" can still plenty of juice out of this Fruit.

Posted by: Jimi at April 29, 2011 02:49 PM (JMsOK)

352 >>>---arrogance= its what happens on blogs methinks. No, I can guarantee you I was always like this. If anything, the blog has made me more politic in my disagreement with others. What you're seeing right now is me, pre-blog, despising conspiracy theories and those who choose to live in fantasy rather than reality. That is exactly what drove me from liberalism to conservatism, as I always say: My rejection of stupidity, magical thinking, and illogic, and my scorn of those who celebrate those.

Posted by: ace at April 29, 2011 02:51 PM (nj1bB)

353 >>>yes i read it. yet you still had questions over it. again, nuthin wrong with that. WHAT?!!? What secret decoder ring are you using to translate my words into your beliefs?

Posted by: ace at April 29, 2011 02:53 PM (nj1bB)

354 "What you're seeing right now is me, pre-blog, despising conspiracy theories and those who choose to live in fantasy rather than reality."

--- here was my position all along, on this thread and in various others concerning this issue. and no, i dont expect you in any way to know that seeing as how their are literally hundreds of commenters here.

....the topic had legs to stand on. it was the same position YOU had on it all. that there were legitimate questions. that is a conspiracy? wow....

"That is exactly what drove me from liberalism to conservatism, as I always say: My rejection of stupidity, magical thinking, and illogic, and my scorn of those who celebrate those. "

--- and here's the problem i have with ya. before you even knew my full position on the topic, you relegated me to the trash heap of coast to coast interviewees and jesse ventura type thinking. the moment you read that i had a "question" over the BC stuff, all of a sudden me and people like me are weirdos with tin foil hats...

....real nice of ya  man.


Posted by: skr8 outta at April 29, 2011 02:55 PM (zcTu+)

355

Obama just was that much of a prick.

Something we can all agree on!  Unity on the Internet!

Posted by: Hollowpoint at April 29, 2011 02:56 PM (WRW1S)

356 Is it wrong to look fondly back on the halcyon days of INTEGRATIVE COMPLEXITY?

Posted by: filbert at April 29, 2011 02:59 PM (smvTK)

357

Soooooooooo.....What race is Obama?

He is not white, because his father is Arab

He is not Arab, because his mother is White

I'm am pretty sure, that the next Census will be forced to classify Obama as an Arab-American.

Boy.....that would have been nice to use before the election, but no worry's the Birth Certificate is not important, but int he end long run...if it was important before the election 2008 why is not important now? I'm confused!

Posted by: Jimi at April 29, 2011 03:00 PM (JMsOK)

358 "What secret decoder ring are you using to translate my words into your beliefs?"

--- the fuck are you talking about?

youve said before  "if you act as if you have something to hide, than people are going to think you have something to hide."

---- no shit sherlock. there were questions to be answered, none of which were out of the realm of possibility considering the background info we did know about the dud in the white house.

i get the whole cop-out act you pulled with the "people are going to think ur hiding sumthin" route. its a way to shield yourself from this type of situation now that obama finally produced his BC. its easier for you to get away seemingly all the better....on your pedestal.

....you had questions about it and theres nothing wrong with it ace, but stop acting as if youre just this mensa member whos better than us peons already.

....its embarrassing.

Posted by: skr8 outta at April 29, 2011 03:01 PM (zcTu+)

359 And he's already mocking us. Must the bloggers continue to do the same? It's just engendering hurt feelings at this point.
Posted by: not the droid you seek at April 29, 2011 07:44 PM (Mei2x)

That works both ways you know.

This has been on ongoing fight for years. Some of us in the non-birther camp were called some ugly names and had some aspersions cast on our fidelity to the Constitution and conservatism.

Well you know what? We were right. I may have missed it but no one in the birther camp bothered to say, "hey sorry, you guys were right". That's fine, I wasn't expecting it. I also wasn't going to run shoving people's noses in it, bygones and all.

Yet did some people who were wrong for years have the decency to at least stop arguing trashed theories? No they doubled down.

But now you seem to think that it's incumbent upon the people who were right to shut up and just let more shit be spewed?

Either it's over for both sides or it's still on.

Posted by: DrewM. at April 29, 2011 03:02 PM (ehlWj)

360 >>>the topic had legs to stand on. it was the same position YOU had on it all. that there were legitimate questions. that is a conspiracy? You know, one of the sources of anger and upset for me now is that you keep insisting on mischaracterizing my position. That was never my position. I never thought the topic "had legs." My position was: If a large number of people are concerned about this, and it's driving them a bit mad, why not just RELEASE THE THING?! You continue insisting that my statement that he should release it, to appease you and settle your worries, some how means I SHARED those worries. I never did. I have said six hundred times the BC conspiracy isn't true. What is galling is that you're sort of making me an honorary birther. Maybe that's my fault because I didn't yell loud enough THIS IS NOT TRUE. I said it, but maybe I had to yell it.

Posted by: ace at April 29, 2011 03:02 PM (nj1bB)

361 HEH. Kilgore. That's a palpable hit.

Posted by: Knemon at April 29, 2011 03:03 PM (IHJnE)

362 As for the rest: Sure, it's reasonable to ask for the BC. And I said so. And I still think it's reasonable to ask for the BC. That never meant I was on board with what YOU thought the BC would show. I never did. But if it matters to you, and it's a trivial matter for Obama, then show the thing, so that half the Republican Party isn't going crazy over the issue. Yes, sure, it's reasonable to ask for the thing. And it was asked for. ANd now it has been provided. At this point it no longer is reasonable to continue asking for the same fucking thing that was already provided (twice, in fact, as the COLB was just as real, but if you want the long form too, fine, you can have that too). But to continue on and on with this -- when does it stop?

Posted by: ace at April 29, 2011 03:04 PM (nj1bB)

363 Jimi,shhhhh.

Posted by: Knemon at April 29, 2011 03:04 PM (IHJnE)

364 >>>i get the whole cop-out act you pulled with the "people are going to think ur hiding sumthin" route. its a way to shield yourself from this type of situation now that obama finally produced his BC. its easier for you to get away seemingly all the better....on your pedestal. Well there you go, yes, I see your problem. Yes, you do seem to have think I was giving you secret Birther signals. I wasn't. I was trying to be nice, and find some point of agreement. And I could agree that if 20% of the public desperately craves the release of a birth record, the president should release it- - he has no privacy right in such a trivial record. Full disclosure. But no, I wasn't, as you seem to think, trying to secretly signal I thought he was born in Kenya. How many times did I have to say he wasn't? When I wrote that blistering attack on conspiracy theories and trutherism and birtherism, did you think I actually believed the exact same horseshit I was calling irrational?

Posted by: ace at April 29, 2011 03:07 PM (nj1bB)

365 Posted by: Knemon at April 29, 2011 08:03 PM (IHJnE)

Yeah, it's a real burn. I mean as long as you ignore the fact Ace and I didn't agree on this for the last 2 years. But otherwise, yep, it's a perfect analogy.

Posted by: DrewM. at April 29, 2011 03:08 PM (ehlWj)

366 "I never did. I have said six hundred times the BC conspiracy isn't true."

--- again, wtf are you talking about?  i never said you believed in the conspiracy, i said you had legit questions about it. you even said in an earlier post on this thread that you thought he may have wanted to hide some info or whatever....which means you had questions on it all, legit questions.

stop lumping me in with others.

and what "worries" are you talking about? since when is a legit question a 'worry'. youre entangling yourself in something that isnt there. at least with my argument that is.

Posted by: skr8 outta at April 29, 2011 03:08 PM (zcTu+)

367 Ace, be the Honey Badger.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at April 29, 2011 03:11 PM (bxiXv)

368 "But no, I wasn't, as you seem to think, trying to secretly signal I thought he was born in Kenya.

How many times did I have to say he wasn't?"

---- there ya go again, with the kenya deal.....i personally never said he was born in kenya....ever....not once......i said there were LEGITIMATE QUESTIONS....if that translates in your mind to obama being born in kenya...cant help ya with that one.

"I wasn't. I was trying to be nice, and find some point of agreement. And I could agree that if 20% of the public desperately craves the release of a birth record, the president should release it- - he has no privacy right in such a trivial record. Full disclosure."

----translating to= president obama....please show the non-smart people the truth....show them how we intellectuals do this.....

.....arrogance...its what happens on blogs methinks.

Posted by: skr8 outta at April 29, 2011 03:12 PM (zcTu+)

369 Drew, it's not issue-specific, its the overall role and tone. You berate, inquisit, shame and expel. Own it.

Posted by: Knemon at April 29, 2011 03:12 PM (IHJnE)

370

Ace & Skr8:

Your both right. Skr8 had every right to insist on seeing it. Ace had every right to beleive that there was nothing to worry about.

The real question is what the next move?

Posted by: Jimi at April 29, 2011 03:15 PM (JMsOK)

371 Drew, I've never insulted you or anyone else, but I could apologize if it helps anything. All I want is an end to internecine fighting. "I'm sorry, you guys were right. I'm also sorry that your patriotism or anything else was insulted, by anyone. That was way out of line." That is genuine, by the way. I meant what I wrote earlier, in that insulting commenters won't accomplish anything but causing hurt feelings.

Posted by: not the droid you seek at April 29, 2011 03:16 PM (FeU4M)

372 >>> i said you had legit questions about it Not really. My only question was "Why not do what 20% of the voters wish you to do, as it's a no-cost move?"

Posted by: ace at April 29, 2011 03:16 PM (nj1bB)

373 Well you know what? We were right.

Posted by: DrewM. at April 29, 2011 08:02 PM (ehlWj)

No, you weren't.  We were saying that we wanted to see the long form (or have it examined by an official body to determine Constitutional eligibility).  Everybody was making various guesses as to what could be on there to make him hold it back.  There were questions of whether name changes were there.

He finally showed it.  For some reason that no AMerican will ever likely understand, he held onto this piece of paper like it was his very life for over 2 years, took an intentional detour on his trip visit dying racist white granny to assure the record would stay unseen, had the military stop a prosecution of one soldier in order to not have to cough it up (in addition to other documents that he needs to come up with - and I don't know how much input the White House had into that odd decision by the military), let another officer go to jail ... and, when Trump starts shouting about it, he coughs it right up.  We won this battle.  Well, Trump won it, as we have been trying to get this done for years.

I don't know what you think you're gloating about.

Posted by: iknowtheleft at April 29, 2011 03:16 PM (G/MYk)

374 >>>...i said there were LEGITIMATE QUESTIONS.... Yes, I call this birtherism, and I resent your attempts to pull me in to that. I never had "legitimate questions" about his place of birth. I never thought it was anywhere but Honolulu. Over and over I said your theories and facts were wrong. But yes, to appease those who WERE asking questions -- I think the long form should have been released, long ago. Just to appease those who are obviously so concerned about it. This is what I'm not liking, your insistence on claiming that I'm like you or andrew sullivan, "just asking questions." The only question I had was "well, why not just do what these citizens request? What's the harm?" The only suspicion I had was that an embarrassing, but legally inconsequential, bit of information (Race: White) might be on the form, something like that, to explain his recalcitrance.

Posted by: ace at April 29, 2011 03:19 PM (nj1bB)

375 "Not really. My only question was "Why not do what 20% of the voters wish you to do, as it's a no-cost move?"

---horse shit.

its a cop-out form of backing away at the least to cover your ass....or at best, its total arrogance in thinking you KNOW the absolute truth.

20% of the voters my ass, as if 20% count.....lol gimme a break.

ace, love ur blog, love it to deafffffffffffffffffff i normally agree with you 90% of the time, but in this instance? youre ace-krauthammer.

....jus sayin.

Posted by: skr8 outta at April 29, 2011 03:19 PM (zcTu+)

376 >>> Everybody was making various guesses as to what could be on there to make him hold it back. Nope! Hollowpoint and DrewM were definitely not guessing that. They stayed with the "He's just being obstinate, or gas-lighting conservatives, or just too angry at being questioned" motivation. Which turned out to be right. So no, they didn't ask. Others also didn't ask. They were consistent on that, all along. Now *I* did start to speculate about that myself -- so you can nail me on that, but not them. I know, because I remember arguing a little with Drew and Hollowpoint on that issue. A little. I just considered it a possibility, the embarassing detail on the form. (Hollowpoint was pretty firm on that, noting that no religion section is even on the form, so I dropped the possiblity of the Religion: Muslim as a guess).

Posted by: ace at April 29, 2011 03:22 PM (nj1bB)

377 "Yes, I call this birtherism, and I resent your attempts to pull me in to that. I never had "legitimate questions" about his place of birth."

---i stopped there....I PERSONALLY HAVE NEVER QUESTIONED HIS PLACE OF BIRF. STOP LUMPING ME IN WITH OTHERS. "LEGIT QUESTIONS" DOESNT AUTOMATICALLY MEAN WHERE HE WAS FUCKING BORN.

"This is what I'm not liking, your insistence on claiming that I'm like you or andrew sullivan, "just asking questions."

--- oh bullshit. youve stated the story had legs but you kept away from the core of it all, which was smart and the right thing to do. but now youre acting as if you were some fucking know it all on the whole deal. quit being preposterous on this issue already.

"The only suspicion I had was that an embarrassing, but legally inconsequential, bit of information (Race: White) might be on the form, something like that, to explain his recalcitrance. "

--- well ill be damned! a "legit question"!  nothing having to do with the kenya thing or any other type of conspiracy....

....im amazed at the level of reading comprehension these days....


Posted by: skr8 outta at April 29, 2011 03:24 PM (zcTu+)

378

Ace,

I just want to point out that actually you are classified as a "Birther" in the sense that, that was the whole point of why he withheld it for so long. See, the whole point was to point out how Racist this country is, and for you to even ask makes you a "Birther," or at least that is how it will be sold from here on out.

There is no need to worry about whether you actually are or not, the entire opposition will be sold from here on out as "Birthers."

And as we get closer, the Media will make the imaginary connection between Birther and Racist. That's how they Roll!

We are all "Birthers"

Posted by: Jimi at April 29, 2011 03:26 PM (JMsOK)

379 >>>its a cop-out form of backing away at the least to cover your ass....or at best, its total arrogance in thinking you KNOW the absolute truth. Nope, this is the secret decoder ring shit that I meant. I said you're wrong, over and over, but apparently you took that to mean I'm with you. I was with you in the way I said: Yes, if this is a major issue, and it's no problem for Obama, then he should fucking release the thing and end the drama. And I'm glad he did. This was dividing the party. Trump and Obama did us a favor here. And yes, I know the absolute truth. The conspiracy theorist always retreats into this fake posture of "just asking questions" and pretending to be "more open minded" than the hidebound supposed-rationalists who think they "know everything." But in fact many questions are packed with assumptions and implied beliefs. By constantly asking the question "Where was Obama born?" you are implicitly asserting there is some great doubt over this issue -- which there's not. There never really was. Yes, I can keep doing the same thing with the moon landing -- asking for the "proof" of it . But by doing so I'm clearly making the STATEMENT that I don't consider the available evidence proof enough.

Posted by: ace at April 29, 2011 03:26 PM (nj1bB)

380 GABBA GABBA HEY, Ace.

Posted by: Knemon at April 29, 2011 03:29 PM (IHJnE)

381 >>>-- well ill be damned! a "legit question"! But that's not really a legitimate question, because really there's no legal reason for that question. I mean, I don't have some general right to know all possible embarrasing information about someone. What that was was just a guess as to what I found to be a hard to understand motivation, and the motivation was hard to understand precisely because it had nothing to do with being born in Kenya. But outing some embarrassing info on Obama doesn't make the line of inquiry "legitimate." It just means I get the bonus of some derogatory information about him, which I'll take all day and six ways to sunday, even though it wasn't really legitimate to dig into that.

Posted by: ace at April 29, 2011 03:29 PM (nj1bB)

382 You berate, inquisit, shame and expel.
Posted by: Knemon at April 29, 2011 08:12 PM (IHJnE)

Oh, I'm enjoying myself. I've been arguing about this for years so I'll cop to berate and shame. I would not have said a word if people had let it go but if you're going to keep flogging a theory that's so totally discredited it seems appropriate.

"Expel"? That's where you make a fool of yourself. People don't get banned here for disagreeing.

As for "inquisit", it doesn't appear to be a word so I'm not sure what your point is.


Posted by: DrewM. at April 29, 2011 03:30 PM (ehlWj)

383 >>.. For some reason that no AMerican will ever likely understand, he held onto this piece of paper like it was his very life for over 2 years, I have to say, once again, that maybe you didn't understand it and *I* didn't understand it but Hollowpoint and DrewM ALWAYS did understand why -- they said, in short, because he's a prick, because he doesn't want to give you anything, and because he thinks it's in his advantage. Honestly, I didn't think someone would do that, espeically for the cynical parts of that reason.

Posted by: ace at April 29, 2011 03:31 PM (nj1bB)

384

I said it looks like crap. Still does. So can we agree that there is nothing wrong with states demanding proof of NBC now? And that if Obama will not offer his BC to a Sec. of State in some state that there is a problem? Or will he simply tell them "It is on the internet, here's the addy" and we should leave it at that? That is where my curiousity is now.

Also, can I derail this thread as I have others, and hope upon hope that we can get a thread topic about how Issa is absolutely worthless? I would happily drop the BC issue if that tool would get busy and start raining hellfire on these corrupt fools in all levels of government, and especially in the Justice department.

Oh, and I am currently leaning towards the draft Ryan thing. Good solid choice, easy sell to the middle.

Posted by: joefrog at April 29, 2011 03:33 PM (vKUhG)

385 "And yes, I know the absolute truth. The conspiracy theorist always retreats into this fake posture of "just asking questions" and pretending to be "more open minded" than the hidebound supposed-rationalists who think they "know everything."

--- because you know....asking for a friggin birth certificate is just such an odd thing to do...*eye roll*. and having a question about whats on it is just oh gosh...out of the ordinary! especially when we're asking a high official...my guess is it turns your stomach. please, stop with the arrogance already. its really unbecoming.

"And yes, I know the absolute truth. The conspiracy theorist always retreats into this fake posture of "just asking questions" and pretending to be "more open minded" than the hidebound supposed-rationalists who think they "know everything."

--- yet you just stated you knew the absolute truth. re-read the statement you just wrote and slap yourself one time.

asking questions makes you a kook in ace's eyes....kinda like charles banning everyone because theyre nazis.....jesus christ.

"But in fact many questions are packed with assumptions and implied beliefs. By constantly asking the question "Where was Obama born?" you are implicitly asserting there is some great doubt over this issue -- which there's not. There never really was. "

--- holy shit....AGAIN you think my foremost question was where our dud-president was born in. theres.....no.....talking....to...a...brick....wall....

"Yes, I can keep doing the same thing with the moon landing -- asking for the "proof" of it . But by doing so I'm clearly making the STATEMENT that I don't consider the available evidence proof enough. "

---- huh....what happened....the moon....huh?  where are we at now?.....




Posted by: skr8 outta at April 29, 2011 03:36 PM (zcTu+)

386 Posted by: joefrog at April 29, 2011 08:33 PM (vKUhG)

I've said all along that if a state wanted to see documentation before putting someone on the ballot, that's a reasonable way to do it. I also think an elector or member of Congress has the right to see proof of eligibility before voting in the Electoral College or certifying the results.

My guess is no state will do that now that Obama has released this.

Too bad, it would be good to end this once and for all.

Posted by: DrewM. at April 29, 2011 03:39 PM (ehlWj)

387 ace, love ur blog, love it to deafffffffffffffffffff i normally agree with you 90% of the time, but in this instance? youre ace-krauthammer.

....jus sayin.

Posted by: skr8 outta at April 29, 2011 08:19 PM (zcTu+)

Hey I like ace and I like Krauthammer so I guess I'm a double RINO.

And for the record I don't recall any of the cobloggers ever expressing doubt that Obama wasn't born in Hawaii. The farthest anyone went was maybe ace who said that the birther issue could be worth pursuing as a tactic to undermine Obama as long as it didn't hurt conservatives ro teh GOP too much. But I don't think anyone here ever entertained the possibility that Obama was born elsewhere given all the evidence.

Posted by: Mtenloch at April 29, 2011 03:40 PM (pAlYe)

388 --So no, they didn't ask. Others also didn't ask. They were consistent on that, all along.

My error.  A bad one, too.  Yes, there were a good number saying that, and that it was tactical move, but they were not "correct".  You're talking about assessments of Barky's motivation, which are still unknown.  I was talking about the process of getting the documentation out that is needed to establish his Constitutional eligibility.  That was the big push, not any particular theory about the BC or Barky's motivation.  It wasn't an argument between people who said that no BC existed and Drew saying that it did exist and had nothing odd on it. 

--Now *I* did start to speculate about that myself -- so you can nail me on that, but not them.

Those doubts hit lots of people over the years.  Every so often, as the issue resurfaced, you'd get a lefty writing a "Why doesn't he just release it and get it over with" article.  I remember a few.

I think that the theory that Obama did this as a tactical move against conservatives is still incorrect.  He's never exhibited any talent in such tactical moves anywhere else.  And pushing the eligibility question has not yet harmed anyone who embraced it, even though most considered it radioactive (in good part because they were terrified of the idea of claiming that a black CiC wasn't eligible). 

--I know, because I remember arguing a little with Drew and Hollowpoint on that issue. A little. I just considered it a possibility, the embarassing detail on the form. (Hollowpoint was pretty firm on that, noting that no religion section is even on the form, so I dropped the possiblity of the Religion: Muslim as a guess).

Posted by: ace at April 29, 2011 08:22 PM (nj1bB)

I thought that a name change was the most likely problem, if one existed on the BC, but generally I figured that he was making a stand on the BC in his fight against eligibility.  I also had doubts about the BC, itself, eventually. 

But, the most important point about this, to me, is that he has finally been forced to cough up something that should have been offered in the very beginning, at the first rumbling of a question.  If people learn the right lessons, then more will be forthcoming.  But those who had argued against even asking for this document are not "correct" about anything in this.

Posted by: iknowtheleft at April 29, 2011 03:40 PM (G/MYk)

389 He released his "COLB", the document the state of HI issues upon request for a birth certificate. Hollowpoint, your abject ignorance of the issue, shared by the MSM, is what drives reasonable birthers like myself mad. The most ELEMENTARY AND CRITICAL distinction in the debate was between the (1) Certification of Live Birth and the (2) Certificate of Live Birth. The Certification was the short-form, 2008 computer-generated affidavit by current Hawaii official certifying that they had looked at some other, unidentified record. The Certificate was the long form, contemporaneous 1961 typewritten document signed by actual participants in the delivery of the baby. The gap in thr evidentiary value of the two is vast -- it's the difference between scribbling today on a napkin "I have seen the Magna Carta" and the original Magna Carta itself. And yet, three years into the debate, Hollowpoint says "He released the COLB." THE ACRONYM FOR BOTH DOCUMENTS IS "COLB.". You've OBLITERATED the only distinction relevant to the controversy. You didn't bother the educate yourself regarding the most basic of facts. The debate BEGINS where you leave off. I actually saw some idiots on MSNBC on Wednesday puzzling over why Obama had released the COLB again. Yes, the shorter certification is what Hawaii generally issues when you request a copy of the BC. The Obama camp used that refrain endlessly to imply, falsely, that the certification was the only document issued at BIRTH. When a growing number of people caught on to this deception, the claim was made that it was illegal to release a copy of the long form, even to the President himself. Not two days ago, a number of liberal bloggers were engaging is a "serious" legal discussion centered on the proposition that a person who gets a BC from Hawaii cannot copy or even show it to another person without a waiver from the state's DOH. It is this kind of ignorance that poisons the debate. I remember the same sneering from the left over the authenticity of the Bush TANG memos. The MSM giggled over all the hooey over "kerning" and fonts as if their own ignorance of the science made it a trivial topic. As I've said, I'll move on. There's no way of knowing what precise document the White House just produced and it would be futile to press for more. But your sloppy intellectual habits will come back to bite you hard in the upcoming presidential campaign. They'll get away with anything and everything they want, and sneer at you for asking questions.

Posted by: Average Joe at April 29, 2011 03:43 PM (liBQN)

390 I mean, birth certificates are the sorts of things that presidential biographers have knife fights over.  But not this one ...  WTF?

Posted by: iknowtheleft at April 29, 2011 03:46 PM (G/MYk)

391 This has been on ongoing fight for years. Some of us in the non-birther camp were called some ugly names and had some aspersions cast on our fidelity to the Constitution and conservatism.

Drew, all you do is ad hominem. Ace may get all bitchy, but it's just his once monthly PMS.
You only do arrogant put downs.

Posted by: KDNY at April 29, 2011 03:46 PM (ECt2r)

392 Drew, if I meant ban id've said ban. Expel as in banISH, mark boundaries of a community and yelp at the Unclean. (Inquisit was my attempt to coin a word. Torquemadize?) I'm not a birther. I agree it's sorry and sad, like a crazy attic-aunt. But taunting that aunt and prolonging the general unpleasantness is an odd pastime.

Posted by: Knemon at April 29, 2011 03:46 PM (IHJnE)

393

I rarely doubted location of birth, the only possibility for out of country I thought was Canada, due to the proximity to Seattle and Stanley, oops, I mean Ann's college attendance at UW soon after BHO's birth.

I am with drewm though, I want states to verify things in the future, and not trust Nancy Pelosi.

I think this helps us in the long run now though. Move on, hit him with questions about foreign scholarships, dual citizenship, passports, transcripts, admittance into Harvard Law, how did he end up in Chicago....etc.

The public no longer believes BHO as a reflex anymore. If anything, he hurt himself for holding a benign document for 3 years just to be a jerk. Now we can needle him over and over, by continuing to ask "what else is he hiding?". As people see his policies continually fail, and the effects are felt by their pocketbooks, they will start leaning our way on more issues.

Let's face it, Obama is the guy that everybody else clears the lane for so he can drive straight to the hoop and make his gimme layup. Trump showed us that he can't play defense for shit. So keep playing defense, and get on up in his grill, and demand that our representatives do the same.

Posted by: joefrog at April 29, 2011 03:47 PM (vKUhG)

394 "But I don't think anyone here ever entertained the possibility that Obama was born elsewhere given all the evidence."-- by maetenloch

--- im tossed in the trash bin of the "he was born in kenya" group. of which there is no escape.

for the last goddamn time. i personally, skr8 outta have NEVER said he may have been in another country. i said that there were LEGIT QUESTIONS that need to be resolved in this issue. not ALL of those questions deals with his place of birth. it could have been other things. if people would have bothered to ask MY opinion on it i would have made it more clear. but thats just ME.

....and when others question if he was born here or not, what exacly is the problem or kookiness of that anyway? why is that akin to moon landings or UFO's?

you guys kill me.

Posted by: skr8 outta at April 29, 2011 03:47 PM (zcTu+)

395 Str8t seemed to be saying the same thing that I am. The Pres. has presented an actual valid document but there was nothing crazy about wanting to see it. It should in fact have been presented (along with all other candidates') prior to election.


I know that makes me nuts. Fine.

Posted by: KDNY at April 29, 2011 03:49 PM (ECt2r)

396 I was just thinking why I got that wrong. (Drew and Hollowpoint got it right.) I kept WRONGLY thinking Obama thought like me. And I, personally, was cringing at this issue. Every time a Republican was asked about it and given a cross examination on their personal affirmation of facts beyond their witness (do you swear he was born in Honolulu? Why not say so?), I winced, and every time there was a fight here, I cringed. So I felt pressure to just get this out of the way. Stupidly (it's so stupid in retrospect) I began thinking -- without thinking, if you know what I mean -- that Obama must be feeling the same pressure over the question, and so he must have a good reason to release it, and if he didn't, who could explain that? But he didn't have that pressure. At all. It was a joke to him. A bunch of conservatives fighting each other on blogs? Some of his Republican tormentors being grilled on TV? Stupidly I was thinking "Gee, if this question is affecting MY Life in a bad way, it MUST be affecting Obama's in a bad way too, so why doesn't he just RELEASE THE STUPID THING?!" See, that's why I couldn't accept Drew M's and Hollowpoint's answer. I FELT 'we need to get this resolved and past us." But Obama didn't feel that way at all. He didn't care one way or another. The moment he felt it was actually a growing concern -- he DID release it. But before that, he either barely even knew this was causing problems for conservatives, and to the extent he knew, it was all to the good. Dumb. Dumb dumb dumb of me. Without actually thinking these things I was actually thinking them, that it must be in Obama's interest to just settle this matter. Like I said, for this reason, I am in fact grateful to Trump. Thank God. And Obama, too, though he only did it because he was feeling heat.

Posted by: ace at April 29, 2011 03:50 PM (nj1bB)

397 >>for the last goddamn time. i personally, skr8 outta have NEVER said he may have been in another country. i said that there were LEGIT QUESTIONS that need to be resolved in this issue. not ALL of those questions deals with his place of birth.

All due respect, dumbshit -- those weren't "legit questions."

Posted by: Jeff B. at April 29, 2011 03:50 PM (E+GWu)

398 i call bullshit.

ace was covering his ass by side stepping the issue. "WELL JUST RELEASE IT CUZ THE 20% OF THE VOTERS WANNA SEE IT"   as if 20% means a flying fuck in an election....please. ace needs to stop pretending he DIDNT wanna see it. theres nothing WRONG in wanting to see it. it doesnt mean you need to be locked away in a padded cell.

just because an guy thinks he might have been born in kenya doesnt mean that person is a schizo off of his meds or a legit arizona cardinals fan...its a simple fuckin question to ask and the arrogance on blog hosts is annoying.

arrogance....it happens all up on teh blogz....

Posted by: skr8 outta at April 29, 2011 03:51 PM (zcTu+)

399 I meant to say keep playing offense. But defense too. I guarantee he is a whiney as bitch on the court, always calling touch fools when he misses.

Posted by: joefrog at April 29, 2011 03:52 PM (vKUhG)

400 But I don't think anyone here ever entertained the possibility that Obama was born elsewhere given all the evidence."-- by maetenloch


I entertained the possibility.  5% ... 8%.  Out of 12 or so parallel universes, you know he will have been born in Kenya in one of them.

Posted by: iknowtheleft at April 29, 2011 03:52 PM (G/MYk)

401 Drew, I think you and Ace are two separate people.
You and Jeff B., however...

Posted by: KDNY at April 29, 2011 03:53 PM (ECt2r)

402 Posted by: KDNY at April 29, 2011 08:46 PM (ECt2r)

Yeah, I'm being an ass.

I'm sick of people who have been wrong all along simply skipping past their being wrong and continue to claim some sort of moral and intellectual high ground.



Posted by: DrewM. at April 29, 2011 03:53 PM (ehlWj)

403 And I did get really mad at Obama for letting this go, for letting it continue to be a problem for us. I guess I can understand why he did that, but I think it's understandable to get pissed off at him about it. I really got annoyed at us always being on the defensive over this. That's why I just sort of declared, almost to just say "Fuck You, too, pal," "This is not our problem. This is Obama's. If Obama wants to play games, let him suffer the the adverse consequences."

Posted by: ace at April 29, 2011 03:54 PM (nj1bB)

404 "All due respect, dumbshit -- those weren't "legit questions."

--- what wasnt? where he was born? what real "color" he was born? why arent they?

stop sticking up for ace you little fanboy shit. hes a big boy and can take care of his own.

this isnt the first go around ive had with this blog. be glad we get in the trenches and fight. now get out of the way kiddo.

Posted by: skr8 outta at April 29, 2011 03:54 PM (zcTu+)

405 Ace, the mistake you made is one of projection: you failed (understandably) to think about this in a way that someone who was a.) innocent b.) well-positioned on the issue politically would have.  Obama would have been stupid to release the long-form before now.  In fact, from a purely Lee Atwater-cynical point of view, I still think he was stupid to waste this bullet now (better to wait until the primaries got rolling).  But up until this point he figured he was BENEFITING from this controversy.

And in fact, he was: its minimal penetration into the public's consciousness (due to its fringe nature) made it a freakshow fascination for the MSM, which used it to conscious AND subconsciously (this is actually quite important) marginalize the anti-Obama/Tea Party movement, whilst having no effect at large.  Only when Trump mainstreamed it did they apparently start worrying.

Posted by: Jeff B. at April 29, 2011 03:55 PM (FO1sk)

406

touch FOULS. But hey, he probably likes touching fools too. Who knows anymore.

Posted by: joefrog at April 29, 2011 03:55 PM (vKUhG)

407 >>this isnt the first go around ive had with this blog. be glad we get in the trenches and fight. now get out of the way kiddo.

I'll bet you're 7 feet tall on the internet.

Posted by: Jeff B. at April 29, 2011 03:56 PM (E+GWu)

408 Please quote anything I said before this thread about the Birther issue, Drew.
Google it. I'll wait.

Posted by: KDNY at April 29, 2011 03:56 PM (ECt2r)

409
I'm sick of people who have been wrong all along simply skipping past their being wrong and continue to claim some sort of moral and intellectual high ground.

In that case the Dems are right about people not needing to show ID to vote. After all some portion of those people will actually have the right to do so and that would make asking wrong and morally low.

Posted by: KDNY at April 29, 2011 03:58 PM (ECt2r)

410 "I really got annoyed at us always being on the defensive over this. That's why I just sort of declared, almost to just say "Fuck You, too, pal," "This is not our problem. This is Obama's. If Obama wants to play games, let him suffer the the adverse consequences."

--- why the fuck be on the defensive? its a FUCKING BIRTH CERTIFICATE. the boob couldve had this bullshit out of the way in less than five minutes lol 

but the other day he finally releases the damn thing then tries to lecture me and the rest of you imbeciles about how its all just so silly....spare me the fucking bullshit already. we're not asking about water on the fucking moon here...

if people think that wanting to see a goddamn BC is a big friggin deal akin to secret government chemical trails-from-planes conspiracies...id say youre not only dumb as a fucking box of frogs, youre also irreversibly insane....

....all this over a BC....unbelievable...

Posted by: skr8 outta at April 29, 2011 03:59 PM (zcTu+)

411 "I'll bet you're 7 feet tall on the internet."

--- 7 foot long actually....

go eat din din.

Posted by: skr8 outta at April 29, 2011 04:00 PM (zcTu+)

412 See, that's why I couldn't accept Drew M's and Hollowpoint's answer. I FELT 'we need to get this resolved and past us."

Posted by: ace at April 29, 2011 08:50 PM (nj1bB)

But, this is where we split in our attitude towards this event.  The problem that needed resolution was his documentation being presented to someone, or to We the People, since all of our representative and judicial someones are pussies and cowards.  That was the most important point, not what was on the BC.

And I stress again, you still don't know WHY Barky held onto this piece of paper as though his life depended on it.  You might be more convinced that Drew and Hollowpoint are right (about whatever it is they're saying beyond the BC) but you are still talking about what motivates Barky in this specific area. 

Posted by: iknowtheleft at April 29, 2011 04:01 PM (G/MYk)

413 But Obama didn't feel that way at all. He didn't care one way or another. Depends what he knew. The official story is that he didn't see his long form until this week. If he was rational, he'd be highly concerned about what other information might be on (or missing) from the document. That would be the normal reaction given the conflicting statements regarding the nature, existence and contents of the documents from two Hawaii Governor and the former DOH director over the past two years.

Posted by: Average Joe at April 29, 2011 04:02 PM (liBQN)

414

Meanwhile, the American flag is still up there on the Moon, whipping in the wind.

SHEEPLE!

Posted by: FUBAR at April 29, 2011 04:02 PM (1fanL)

415 Jesus, staple something on the telephone pole and move on.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at April 29, 2011 04:02 PM (bxiXv)

416 >>>. In fact, from a purely Lee Atwater-cynical point of view, I still think he was stupid to waste this bullet now (better to wait until the primaries got rolling). Right, exactly, from his point of view, assuming it wasn't hurting him, it was delicious for him -- which makes Chris Matthews bizarre reptition of the claim that the timing here was "masterful" and a "perry Mason Moment" all the more pathetic. No, the right timing was either two years ago (ending this early) or waiting, waiting, waiting for it to really damage the party. >>> But up until this point he figured he was BENEFITING from this controversy. Right, they must have gotten signals that people were starting to ask "Why not release it then?" Which is why I though, for the past six months, that this wasn't going to hurt us too much: Because at some point people would ask "Well why not release it then?" I guess he hit that point where some polls showed people were starting to get annoyed over this.

Posted by: ace at April 29, 2011 04:03 PM (nj1bB)

417

Ace,

WTF? You're not even talking about the same alleged Kenyan birth certificate he is. And you just decide to SKIP over his entire video argument?

What the fuck?

Posted by: Rip at April 29, 2011 04:03 PM (onO2O)

418 "Meanwhile, the American flag is still up there on the Moon, whipping in the wind.

SHEEPLE!"


---being a dipshit is no way to go thru life son....

Posted by: skr8 outta at April 29, 2011 04:03 PM (zcTu+)

419 Ever notice how successful coalitions keep their crazier members on board by not constantly reproaching and taunting and Casting them Out?

9/11 Truth: crazy as shit.  Democrats in 2008: not wringing their hands over it.

Back to pimp-slapping Aunt Gertrude around the yard yelling SEE WHAT YOU MAKE ME DO WITH YOUR CRAZY FAILURE?

Posted by: Knemon at April 29, 2011 04:05 PM (nsxc+)

420 Posted by: iknowtheleft at April 29, 2011 09:01 PM (G/MYk)

What's the constitutional procedure for a candidate for President to provide documentation about his eligibility for office?

Not what you think it is but what is in the document. I'm going to need an Article, Section and Clause please.

Posted by: DrewM. at April 29, 2011 04:06 PM (ehlWj)

421 >>go eat din din.

Jesus, are you fifteen?  Why do all birthers seemingly behave like adenoidal adolescents?  What's next, a 'deez nuts' crack?

Face it: there were no 'legitimate questions' about Obama's birth certificate.  Ever.  Just a bunch of conspiracy-mongering coupled with a hope and desire that something EMBARRASSING (which is not the same as 'legitimate' -- what the fuck would it really have mattered if "Muslim" HAD been on his BC?  It's not like it was his friggin' decision, so you can't blame it on him) might be found there.  Which you then transmogrified into the Fierce Moral Urgency of Seeing The Long-Form.

You're a defensive, mewling child.  That's all, really.  Now you're backing and filling, blubbering and blustering in defense of this indefensible bullshit.

Posted by: Jeff B. at April 29, 2011 04:06 PM (E+GWu)

422 KDNY, no, Drew and Jeff B. are quite distinct.  Jeff B. is an asshole and an Enforcer and everything, but he's actually funny. Drew's just a dick.

Posted by: Knemon at April 29, 2011 04:08 PM (nsxc+)

423 I guess he hit that point where some polls showed people were starting to get annoyed over this.

Posted by: ace at April 29, 2011 09:03 PM (nj1bB)

I don't think it was polls.  I think it was Trump.  Barky has never given much of a shit about the polls.  He just berates anyone who doesn't support him, calls them racists and whatnot, and most of his sheep usually squeeze back in.  I think it was Trump, personally, screaming on TV and all over the place, that got Barky to finally puke up the BC.  He thought it would shut Trump up.  He was wrong, as usual.

Posted by: iknowtheleft at April 29, 2011 04:08 PM (G/MYk)

424 >>>The problem that needed resolution was his documentation being presented to someone, or to We the People, since all of our representative and judicial someones are pussies and cowards. That was the most important point, not what was on the BC. I half agree but I think more disagree. Here's the thing: You are advancing the hygeinic argument. That is, we should have transparent, formal processes for determining such things. If it's in the Constitution, its not a dead letter. There must be some formal enforcement method. That is probably something I can agree with, and have agreed with as a compromise position, except for a few things: 1. Apparently this country has ALWAYS dealt with this in an ad hoc fashion. We have no special tribunal to determine qualifications. The constition states teh qualifications but not who shall evaluate them. And the Founders themselves proceded with no formal tribunal for determining this -- who are we to say they were wrong? 2. Any tribunal that can disqualify your opponent can also disqualify your enemy, and, as Governor Brewer of AZ said in vetoing this, that is very dangerous. It's nice to think about it if it's people we trust determining this, but what if it's people we LOATHE, and who despise us? Think about how bad that could be. Sure, worst case scenarios usually don't happen... but think about Loretta Sanchez and Sheila Jackson Lee on this commission. The thing is, this has been handled ad hoc and informally and by secretaries of state (or party chairs) in the past... so who is to say that fails the constitutional test, since Jefferson and Adams and all them did it that way too? Finally, here's the thing: He DID show his birth certificate. The short form COLB *is* and always has been Hawaii's real, legal proof of birth. The Long Form was made up by those who had bit on the COLB forgery claim, then been proven wrong, and so backed up into a new position ("show us the real birth certificate!") But Obama already had-- the short form COLB always was "real." If you are a hawaian citizen and request a BC, that's what you get. You only get the long form for special exceptional reasons. So when you say he owed it to us to show "We the people" his BC, bear in mind, he really did. People were asking for double-proof, which is fine, but does he owe you double proof, or was single proof enough? I can sort of now understand his position that single proof was enough and it was just being an asshole to ask for double, even though, before this, I was pretty pissed at him for that, for making it an issue.

Posted by: ace at April 29, 2011 04:11 PM (nj1bB)

425 >>> Barky has never given much of a shit about the polls. Course he does. He just expected people to embrace socialism. if he didn't care about the polls he could have fought for the end of hte bush tax rates.

Posted by: ace at April 29, 2011 04:12 PM (nj1bB)

426 "Jesus, are you fifteen?  Why do all birthers seemingly behave like adenoidal adolescents?  What's next, a 'deez nuts' crack?"

--- why not?

"Face it: there were no 'legitimate questions' about Obama's birth certificate. "

maybe not....so why hide it for so long? what was the big freakin deal? so show the thing already.....the guy waited over two years lol  you dont think thats just a wee-little dumb as fuck?

"Just a bunch of conspiracy-mongering coupled with a hope and desire that something EMBARRASSING"

----what the fuck you mean "hope and desire"?.....so if a guy asks a question he's "hoping and desiring" a specific answer? as if the truthful answer isnt good enough for some people? youre a moron of the highest degree.

"Which you then transmogrified into the Fierce Moral Urgency of Seeing The Long-Form."

i transmogrified it? me? wow....didnt know that......again im lumped in with the usual suspects. nevermind a decent thought out argument to discuss...just toss us all in the trash bin! ....its a nice avoidance tactic you got there champ...

"You're a defensive, mewling child.  That's all, really.  Now you're backing and filling, blubbering and blustering in defense of this indefensible bullshit. "

you have NO idea of what my position is...youre just defending ace because you like this blog....like a little child. youre too stupid to even argue with me.


Posted by: skr8 outta at April 29, 2011 04:13 PM (zcTu+)

427

He was referring to this Kenyan birth certificate:

www . wasobamaborninkenya . com

Not the admitted hoax you were talking about.

Posted by: Rip at April 29, 2011 04:14 PM (onO2O)

428

And I stress again, you still don't know WHY Barky held onto this piece of paper as though his life depended on it. You might be more convinced that Drew and Hollowpoint are right (about whatever it is they're saying beyond the BC) but you are still talking about what motivates Barky in this specific area

The issue of why Obama didn't release it was always a central point of the argument.  The (not at all unreasonable) assumption among many of his detractors was that he was "hiding" it because he had something to hide. 

That "something" tended to change with time- it didn't exist because he was born in Kenya, it listed his religion as Muslim, his father was other than claimed, his race is listed as caucasion, etc.

After learning how little extra information the "long form" BC held compared to the "COLB", and being satisfied that the COLB wasn't a complete forgery, none of that made much sense to me.  How politically damaging would it have been even if his father was listed as "unknown", something very personal that he had no control over?

Now, the potential to use the issue to portray Republicans as "extremist", unserious nutjob racists obsessed with personal attacks?  That did make more sense to me, being the cynical bastard that I am.  Chrissy Mathews didn't keep harping about it to hurt Obama.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at April 29, 2011 04:14 PM (WRW1S)

429 --What's the constitutional procedure for a candidate for President to provide documentation about his eligibility for office?

States establish the rules of getting on their ballots, as you know.  New Jersey, for instance, charges the SecState with checking eligbility of candidates before they go on the New Jersey ballot.  That was what the B'Onofrio suit was all about.  In that race, of course, there was a non-American (a Nicaraguan) also on the ballot for President.

The voter, D'Onofrio, was found to have no standing in challenging the state to prove that it carried out its own laws and had only eligible people on the ballots.  Peon, as he is.

--Not what you think it is but what is in the document. I'm going to need an Article, Section and Clause please.

Posted by: DrewM. at April 29, 2011 09:06 PM (ehlWj)

Sheesh.  The requirements are laid out quite clearly.  Any doubts as to the meaning of those requirements (as they are ground-level Constitutional phrases) is taken up in federal court.  But our courts all pussed out (state ones, too) and refused to grant standing to any one or any thing (though a friggin delta smelt can get standing to starve a town) and everyone declared ...

Great.

Posted by: iknowtheleft at April 29, 2011 04:15 PM (G/MYk)

430

Holy fucking shit. You just glossed over his ENTIRE argument based on a simple mistake he made, really? Is that how we are going to do things around here then?

Ok, cool. You made a simple mistake as well.

You didn't even know which Kenyan birth certificate he was talking about. So since you have no idea what you're talking about, that invalidates your entire post as well.

Good one!

Posted by: Rip at April 29, 2011 04:18 PM (onO2O)

431
2. Any tribunal that can disqualify your opponent can also disqualify your enemy, and, as Governor Brewer of AZ said in vetoing this, that is very dangerous. It's nice to think about it if it's people we trust determining this, but what if it's people we LOATHE, and who despise us? Think about how bad that could be. Sure, worst case scenarios usually don't happen... but think about Loretta Sanchez and Sheila Jackson Lee on this commission.

So do we ask for proof on the age requirement or must we take a gentleman's word there also. Under your don't ask don't tell code the constitutional requirements have no meaning.

Posted by: KDNY at April 29, 2011 04:19 PM (ECt2r)

432 In the future, Karl Denninger should probably stick to what he knows best:  The Markets. 

But hey, at least he hates Ron Paul.....

Posted by: TXMarko at April 29, 2011 04:19 PM (HV4B+)

433 bah its bullshit.

ace had questions but shielded himself in case things went awry. hes not fooling me in the slightest, and neither are his little fanboy defenders.

lol  too afraid to stand up and ask questions, then be in defense of your beliefs. you know, just in case someone like anne coulter or the kraut might disagree with you.

fucking wimps. i got more respect for a 911 truther who will fight with me tooth and nail than you nimrods.

Posted by: skr8 outta at April 29, 2011 04:21 PM (zcTu+)

434 There were legitimate questions regarding the BC given the seemingly widespread conspiracy to hide and lie about it, though probably not legitimate questions about his place of birth. I think part of the dismissal of the issue stems from how far we are from the election. There were no legitimate questions over whether Obama shagged Miss Baker, but was chasing that rabbit down every hole. Based on what? Some hearsay from a cab driver? Sure, her website vanished in a flash and she got flown down to the Caribbean, but that behavior was far less suspicious than how Obama and the Hawaiian officials were acting about the BC. We were just hoping for a quick kill with Vera and hoping it would hobble him until the clock ran out on November 2. I doubt Ace would have bothered with it had the rumors first surfaced in 2009 (or today).

Posted by: Average Joe at April 29, 2011 04:23 PM (liBQN)

435

Now, the potential to use the issue to portray Republicans as "extremist", unserious nutjob racists obsessed with personal attacks? 

Posted by: Hollowpoint at April 29, 2011 09:14 PM (WRW1S)

This is exactly what I disagreed with you about.  There was nothing extremist, unserious, and definitely nothing racist about any of this.  I mean, it's laughable.  That was the left's (and Barky's) argument and it was a clear lie - as pretty much all of their tactics tend to be.  If you're scared of being labeled "raaacists" because of reasonable requests (and the eligbility requests are all eminently reasonable ... or, as our empathetic latina would say, "imminently reasonable") then you will find no refuge, at all.  Eligibility was devoid of race.  If you can't take that heat, then you are really going to shit when you see what they bring on for this election.

Posted by: iknowtheleft at April 29, 2011 04:24 PM (G/MYk)

436 >>>maybe not....so why hide it for so long? what was the big freakin deal? so show the thing already.....the guy waited over two years lol  you dont think thats just a wee-little dumb as fuck?

No, I thought it was fucking brilliant politically.  If I was Obama, or advising him, I would have done the same thing.  I've said so many times here, and as I just noted a few posts above, his only mistake IMO was in firing this bullet too early instead of holding back.  I think he and his team got legit panicked by Trump's mainstreaming of the issue, but what they should've done is let him get even more barking mad about it and then drop the bomb sometime in January.

I'm not even touching the issue of whether this was ETHICAL or MORAL thing to do, understand.  I'm thinking purely in Conan Terms ("crush your enemies, see them driven before you...") here, purely about winning elections, not about Doing The Right Thing.  As any political advisor to a President ought to be thinking when it comes to a matter as stupid and peripheral as this (this ain't the national debt, after all - it's a sod-off conspiracy).

>>>what the fuck you mean "hope and desire"?.....so if a guy asks a question he's "hoping and desiring" a specific answer? as if the truthful answer isnt good enough for some people? youre a moron of the highest degree.

Yeah, I'm saying that when people keep asking the same sorts of questions, asking them 'just so', harping on a remarkably consonant grouping of facts and questions (birthplace? real father? religion on BC? race listed?) they're looking for embarrassing shit to use as a cudgel rather than seeking out Issues of the Greatest Importance to the Republic.

>>>you have NO idea of what my position is...youre just defending ace because you like this blog....like a little child. youre too stupid to even argue with me.

I have a pretty solid idea of your position based on your posts in this thread.  Perhaps you don't realize that.  Maybe you've revealed more than you intended.  If you're not a Birther outright, you're 'Birther-friendly', which is bad enough.  Oh, but you were "just asking questions." 

Hey, I've heard that steel can't be melted by fire.  What's that you say?  Fuck off, I'm just asking questions.

Posted by: Jeff B. at April 29, 2011 04:26 PM (FO1sk)

437

One final point that, this late in the thread, almost nobody is going to read.

Part of the reason for my sometimes... spirited opposition to even a hint of "Birtherism" is because if our goal is to beat Obama in 2012, we have to be measured with anything that could be construed as a personal attack.

Such attacks- be they on his narcisist personality, his lazyness, his refusal to release records like college transcripts, etc- might excite blog readers and other members of the Republican / conservative base, but the squishy, swing voter Independants have a limited tolerance for it.  Especially against an incumbent most of them voted for and remains personally, though not politically, popular.

Yes, winning candidates almost always use negative "attack ads", and they do it because in limited doses, it works.  Rely too heavily on them, and they backfire- this is largely the reason MN has a Senator Franken instead of Coleman.

If we're to question Obama about his college transcripts (for example), it shouldn't be in the context of  "he must be hiding something", but rather as one (but not main) example of how he's failed to live up to his promises of transparency in addition to purely political examples.  Use that which can be easily identified with politics and not merely personal.  The BC thing didn't really meet that criteria.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at April 29, 2011 04:30 PM (WRW1S)

438 Sheesh.  The requirements are laid out quite clearly.  Any doubts as to the meaning of those requirements (as they are ground-level Constitutional phrases) is taken up in federal court.
Posted by: iknowtheleft at April 29, 2011 09:15 PM (G/MYk)

It's up to the Congress to count and certify the electoral votes. If a congressman or Senator (technically it takes one of each) object to the validity of the votes, they can challenge it.

There's simply no role for the federal courts in conducting presidential elections.

Posted by: DrewM. at April 29, 2011 04:31 PM (ehlWj)

439 The thing is, this has been handled ad hoc and informally and by secretaries of state (or party chairs) in the past...

The failure, here, was mostly with SecStates, but then we have the courts to appeal to.  The courts, however, bailed on us, as they were all cowards.  The press, of course, was pushing their messiah so hard, they were on the side of helping hide the documents - like the CNN managing editor(?) who told Lou Dobbs that the BC had been destroyed and didn't exist, so stop asking about it.

The Founders understood that brave men were necessary to keep the Republic alive.  There were no brave men in 2008 ...

Posted by: iknowtheleft at April 29, 2011 04:34 PM (G/MYk)

440 Posted by: Average Joe at April 29, 2011 09:23 PM (liBQN)

There were no legitimate questions. There was simply a pissing match between people who hate Obama and made crazy ass shit up and were impervious to any evidence to the contrary and Obama who seemed to want to tell those people to go fuck themselves.

Posted by: DrewM. at April 29, 2011 04:35 PM (WnQJ3)

441 "No, I thought it was fucking brilliant politically.  If I was Obama, or advising him, I would have done the same thing.  I've said so many times here, and as I just noted a few posts above, his only mistake IMO was in firing this bullet too early instead of holding back.  I think he and his team got legit panicked by Trump's mainstreaming of the issue, but what they should've done is let him get even more barking mad about it and then drop the bomb sometime in January."

--- brilliant politically....wtf man lol  its a fucking BC.....people like you make politics all the more silly and annoying....soap opera bullshit..

"yeah, I'm saying that when people keep asking the same sorts of questions, asking them 'just so', harping on a remarkably consonant grouping of facts and questions (birthplace? real father? religion on BC? race listed?) they're looking for embarrassing shit to use as a cudgel rather than seeking out Issues of the Greatest Importance to the Republic."

---ok so....show them, laugh it off then shut the fuck up about it. "heres my BC...thank you."  then let them stew over it. instead he showed it, gave us all a lecture because we're all so beneath him...then guys like ace and co. continue to act as if we're undermensch.  nice little arrogant strategy there.

"I have a pretty solid idea of your position based on your posts in this thread.  Perhaps you don't realize that.  Maybe you've revealed more than you intended.  If you're not a Birther outright, you're 'Birther-friendly', which is bad enough. "

---why is it bad enough? again, you act ad if im wanting to see evidence of UFO's, chemtrails, people living in hollow-earth, the mayan calendar etc...youve projected your ideas of conspiracy onto me before even talking to me. in one way i can get that...you cant always talk to each and every person about their beliefs, its easier to lump us all together....you just dont have to be arrogant and condescending about it. like ace has been.

step back for a minute and think...it does ya good.




Posted by: skr8 outta at April 29, 2011 04:35 PM (zcTu+)

442 What Hollowpoint says in #453, exactly.  Particularly w/r/t how to frame the issue of Obama's grades in school (which, let's be fair, is ultra-peripheral as it is): don't talk about it in terms of "that black kid used Affirmative Action to get ahead!"  That's a huge turn-off, even to me (it just sounds whiny).

But if you sell it like Johnny Rotten at Winterland, January 1978?  By framing in terms of "ever get the feeling you've been cheated?"  THAT can have resonance.  THAT fits into a much more pervasive "buyer's remorse" zeitgeist about Obama that a lot of people are feeling right now.  That's how to attack it.

It's a delicate line.  Too delicate, I fear, for some people.

Posted by: Jeff B. at April 29, 2011 04:35 PM (E+GWu)

443

This is exactly what I disagreed with you about. There was nothing extremist, unserious, and definitely nothing racist about any of this.

It's completely irrelevant if there was or wasn't.  The only thing that mattered was the ability to sell it as such.

He wasn't playing to you or I; we weren't going to vote for him under any circumstances.  He was playing to those who can be convinced that he's "the adult in the room".

Posted by: Hollowpoint at April 29, 2011 04:35 PM (WRW1S)

444 Remember folks, the more time the right spends screaming at birthers the less the left have to to it to get it made into a sanity issue for the next election. It's a huge distraction and we shouldn't talk about it except for repeating ad infinitum in public that it's a huge distraction that we shouldn't talk about. The left will accuse the right of being crazy birthers no matter how much the right comes down on brithers. Let them do their OWN work huh? Also do we want to risk Birthers deciding to stay home or voting for the crazy 3rd party spoiler guy because the rest of the right circled around them and chanted shame shame? Is doing the lefts work for them and potentially dispiriting and alienating the political will of the birthers on top of that good smart politics? Donald the Trump just took a lot of fire and disarmed the damned trap FOR us and now we we want to set the trap back up and blunder into it just to try not be counted with the birthers by people who have a strong political interest in us ALL being dismissed as birthers no matter what we do or say?' Hint: concentrate all criticism on OBAMA and his little union elves.

Posted by: cackfinger at April 29, 2011 04:36 PM (HpG1y)

445 Or Palin if her poll numbers kick up suddenly.

Posted by: cackfinger at April 29, 2011 04:38 PM (HpG1y)

446 There's simply no role for the federal courts in conducting presidential elections.

Posted by: DrewM. at April 29, 2011 09:31 PM (ehlWj)

There's so much wrong with that sentence ... I don't even know where to start.  "Conducting"?  Give me a break.

When it is a question of a Constitutional violation, it is a question for the federal courts and ultimately the SCOTUS, and if it is against a State, then it is for the SCOTUS.

Posted by: iknowtheleft at April 29, 2011 04:41 PM (G/MYk)

447 bah

ace was trying to side step the issue by posting things like "WELL HEY IF THE PEOPLE WANNA SEE IT...."

an OBVIOUS cover up, you know, just in case he was wrong....you can be sure if something were to turn up on that BC he woulve been right there in front of us! at least the detractors and believers had ground to stand on. that says alot about some people...ace gets a thumbs down for his silly fence sitting....over a goddamn BC...he doesnt fool me for a second on this one.

20% of the voters my ass....tell it to someone else.




Posted by: skr8 outta at April 29, 2011 04:41 PM (zcTu+)

448 "There's simply no role for the federal courts in conducting presidential elections."

Word.

Posted by: Bush v. Gore at April 29, 2011 04:41 PM (nsxc+)

449 .youve projected your ideas of conspiracy onto me before even talking to me.

Nailed it.
And Drew, there was a question about his birth certificate. It was the same question about all the candidates: were they eligible?

Posted by: KDNY at April 29, 2011 04:42 PM (ECt2r)

450

---ok so....show them, laugh it off then shut the fuck up about it. "heres my BC...thank you." then let them stew over it. instead he showed it, gave us all a lecture because we're all so beneath him...then guys like ace and co. continue to act as if we're undermensch. nice little arrogant strategy there.

After two years of being called stupid, gullible RINOs with noses planted up Obama's ass, yeah- I'm going to gloat a bit.

I was right, the Birthers and pseudo-Birthers were wrong.  Yes, as a matter of fact, that does make me feel morally and intellectually superior thanks for asking.

Deal with it, buttercup.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at April 29, 2011 04:44 PM (WRW1S)

451

It's completely irrelevant if there was or wasn't.  The only thing that mattered was the ability to sell it as such.

He wasn't playing to you or I; we weren't going to vote for him under any circumstances.  He was playing to those who can be convinced that he's "the adult in the room".

Posted by: Hollowpoint at April 29, 2011 09:35 PM (WRW1S)

Like I said (and had said throughout this whole debate) if you're scared of that then you're going to be scared of everything.  We've seen too many people like this.  It doesn't work.  People don't respect cowards - especially those who will not defend the truth when everyone can see it.

Barky wasn't playing to anyone. He's an idiot.  He screws up everything.  No one on the right has been hurt by this, save those who have offended the base (replay of the amnesty fiasco).  And I would remind you, the people who were being called "raacists" and "evil mongers" and "astroturf" that the GOP junior varsity kept a good distance from in the beginning were the only ones that got any life back into the GOP, again, and gave this country one last hope to come back from the brink.

Posted by: iknowtheleft at April 29, 2011 04:47 PM (G/MYk)

452 "Deal with it, buttercup."

....deal with what? lol i got what i wanted= the long form BC. im satisfied.

you act as if im angry over here about obama showing it lmao

im glad its resolved. my questions are answered.

wtf are you gloating about?  fuckin buffoon....

Posted by: skr8 outta at April 29, 2011 04:47 PM (zcTu+)

453 Rip, Yes, I glossed over his ENTIRE argument because THIS WAS THE BULLSHIT THEY SAID ABOUT THE FIRST COLB TOO, all this 'layers" shit. How many times do you get sold the same magic beans before you start to realize they're not magic? Did yesterday never happen for you? However, you're right, i DID make that error -- I didn't know there were two forged Kenyan Birth Certificates. Or if I knew it, briefly, I forgot it long ago. Point is, you're right, I made a mistake, and I just corrected. Unlike Market Ticker guy who stealth-corrected, I added a real-life "I erred" correction. But let's listen to him. He seems to know what he's talking about.

Posted by: ace at April 29, 2011 04:50 PM (nj1bB)

454 And Drew, there was a question about his birth certificate. It was the same question about all the candidates: were they eligible?
Posted by: KDNY at April 29, 2011 09:42 PM (ECt2r)

And 9/11 Truthers just have a question about Building 7. Any one can have "a question", the issue is their any reasonable basis for that question and if you're willing to take an answer when it's given.

If this is the same question for all candidates, then I'm sure you wanted to see George W. Bush's birth certificate. Right?



Posted by: DrewM. at April 29, 2011 04:52 PM (dw7rB)

455 "Yes, I glossed over his ENTIRE argument because THIS WAS THE BULLSHIT THEY SAID ABOUT THE FIRST COLB TOO, all this 'layers" shit."

---nah they never said that. youre making that shit up.

another avoidance.

Posted by: skr8 outta at April 29, 2011 04:52 PM (zcTu+)

456 >>>How politically damaging would it have been even if his father was listed as "unknown", something very personal that he had no control over? I don't think it would have been very politically damaging. It would have been personally embarrassing. Just the sort of thing he would have cringed at. No political help in just getting a cheap-shot revelation like that for us.

Posted by: ace at April 29, 2011 04:52 PM (nj1bB)

457 When it is a question of a Constitutional violation,
Posted by: iknowtheleft at April 29, 2011 09:41 PM (G/MYk)

 A bunch of cranks on the internet who wouldn't accept the document that was originally provided (and then came up with all sorts of crazy and disproved shit about it) does not equal "a question of a Constitutional violation".

You give yourself and the birthers far to much credit and stature.

Posted by: DrewM. at April 29, 2011 04:54 PM (dw7rB)

458 " A bunch of cranks on the internet who wouldn't accept the document that was originally provided"

---because that document was oh so believable lol

if you bought that youre more of a dolt than i thought.

....yet he released the real BC long form.

how dumb do you feel?

...im now satisfied personally about his BC, its about time the idiot showed it up. it only took two friggin years to do so.

i could show mine in 5 secs.

yet you defend the sap....nice dick sucking there.

Posted by: skr8 outta at April 29, 2011 04:57 PM (zcTu+)

459

---being a dipshit is no way to go thru life son....

Posted by: skr8 outta at April 29, 2011 09:03 PM (zcTu+)

Can't help but notice you've managed quite nicely. 

Go ahead and make personal attacks if it helps you avoid the awkward questions.  Meanwhile, the American flag is still up there.  Against a background of no stars. 

Posted by: FUBAR at April 29, 2011 04:58 PM (1fanL)

460 >>>No political help in just getting a cheap-shot revelation like that for us.

In fact, it would have, if anything, likely backfired.  Americans wouldn't look at that and say "HA!  YER A BASTARD!"  They'd think, "gee, what assholes the Republicans are for making an issue out of this."  Note that the GOP as a whole would get the blame, too.  That ain't fair, but that's life.

Posted by: Jeff B. at April 29, 2011 04:59 PM (E+GWu)

461 Okay, I don't know if they talked about layers with the first one -- a commenter said they did, I assumed that to be true -- but I do know they went into all this pseudo-technical horeshit about it: http://tinyurl.com/3utb7wq All bullshit. All wrong. "TechDude" even stole his credentials from someone else. So, okay, I may have overstepped there and asserted that the layers analysis was done before. (I still think that commenter is right; I just can't prove it.) But basically it was all the same thing -- this fuzziness around a character proves forgery, this "heat map" proves forgery. All completely made up by someone who doesn't know jack squat. But yeah, I shouldn't have asserted that in all caps until I found the cite.

Posted by: ace at April 29, 2011 05:00 PM (nj1bB)

462 "Go ahead and make personal attacks if it helps you avoid the awkward questions."

---what awkward questions?

"Meanwhile, the American flag is still up there.  Against a background of no stars. "

---" background of no stars" ..... lol  not too bright on the subject of cosmology are ye?  let me guess this one....theres supposed to be a zillion or so stars showing in those pics right? because you know...when youre in the country side you see alot of stars lolololol

.........retreat back to 5th grade for the answer to that one...

Posted by: skr8 outta at April 29, 2011 05:01 PM (zcTu+)

463 I'm still trying to figure out how Obama has the time to run cocaine from Columbia to NW Arkansas.  He's a multi-tasking fool.

Posted by: FUBAR at April 29, 2011 05:01 PM (1fanL)

464

If this is the same question for all candidates, then I'm sure you wanted to see George W. Bush's birth certificate. Right?

Posted by: DrewM. at April 29, 2011 09:52 PM (dw7rB)

No.  But if some American did want to see it, he is entitled to either see it (like your lawyer's credentials that are hung on his office wall for all his clients to be able to see) or see some affidavit from an official testifying that they saw it and other documents and had verified that George Bush was, indeed, eligible.  It would have taken all of 5 minutes to put this together and should have been done the moment one American voter made a request.  No one would have been offended by that demand.  That's the point.

Posted by: iknowtheleft at April 29, 2011 05:01 PM (G/MYk)

465 ---because that document was oh so believable lol
Posted by: skr8 outta at April 29, 2011 09:57 PM (zcTu+)

Yeah, it was. You were fucking wrong and you're either too stupid to admit it or even realize it.

You're exactly the kind of asshole that should be mocked mercilessly. You're a crank like Rosie O'Donnell, Andrew Sullivan and Al Gore.


Posted by: DrewM. at April 29, 2011 05:02 PM (dw7rB)

466 ---" background of no stars" ..... lol  not too bright on the subject of cosmology are ye?  let me guess this one....theres supposed to be a zillion or so stars showing in those pics right? because you know...when youre in the country side you see alot of stars lolololol

.........retreat back to 5th grade for the answer to that one...

Posted by: skr8 outta at April 29, 2011 10:01 PM (zcTu+)

Actually not cosmology, just regular ol' astronomy.  Has  nothing to do with the origin or evolution of the universe.  Stupid.  See you in 5th grade!

Posted by: FUBAR at April 29, 2011 05:03 PM (1fanL)

467 "Yeah, it was. You were fucking wrong and you're either too stupid to admit it or even realize it."

--- and i could show you a picture of my ass and tell you it was the andromeda galaxy and i bet youd believe it....

if you bought those stupid pictures as truth you get no fruit cup for dessert.

....and yet obama STILL showed his long form lolol even AFTER that stupid hoax a few yrs ago.

youre dumb....admit it....then move on...

Posted by: skr8 outta at April 29, 2011 05:05 PM (zcTu+)

468 Like I said (and had said throughout this whole debate) if you're scared of that then you're going to be scared of everything. We've seen too many people like this. It doesn't work. People don't respect cowards - especially those who will not defend the truth when everyone can see it.

It's not a question of being brave or cowardly. It's a question of whether throwing grenades at your enemy before taking the time to pull the pin is a wise move.  Sure, you might distract him for a bit, and maybe even hurt him with a direct hit... but eventually he's going to pick it up and throw it back.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at April 29, 2011 05:05 PM (WRW1S)

469 No.  But if some American did want to see it, he is entitled to either see it
Posted by: iknowtheleft at April 29, 2011 10:01 PM (G/MYk)

At least you admit your stance is situational and not principled. That's something.

Where exactly is this supposed entitlement enshrined? Besides your fertile imagination I mean.

No one was offende? So when asshole Democrats spent 8 years bitching about Florida and 4 about Ohio, you were cool with that? I mean they were 'just asking questions' about Bush's legitimacy. That's a major constitutional issue, right? Should Bush have had to defend the Ohio vote count to any American who demanded it?

Posted by: DrewM. at April 29, 2011 05:07 PM (dw7rB)

470 >>>because that document was oh so believable lol

Oh gee, I wonder why anyone would call skr8 a Birther.  How could we have made that grievous fucking error?

You reveal yourself.

Posted by: Jeff B. at April 29, 2011 05:08 PM (E+GWu)

471 "Actually not cosmology, just regular ol' astronomy.  Has  nothing to do with the origin or evolution of the universe.  Stupid.  See you in 5th grade!"

---no dummy its cosmology....astrology means the positions of celestial bodies means youre a fag or a psycho path or sumthin....so your homework


Posted by: skr8 outta at April 29, 2011 05:09 PM (zcTu+)

472

Posted by: Hollowpoint at April 29, 2011 10:05 PM (WRW1S)

It's not our fault that the Indonesian's a malevolent retard.

Posted by: iknowtheleft at April 29, 2011 05:09 PM (G/MYk)

473 "You reveal yourself."

....oh ok....im a birther....so? so what? what of it?

unlike ace and the rest of you fanboys, ill fight about it like i have been all night. im not afraid of the label.

Posted by: skr8 outta at April 29, 2011 05:10 PM (zcTu+)

474 >>>---because that document was oh so believable lol >>>if you bought that youre more of a dolt than i thought. Tuning you out now. You are among the Yesterday Never Happened Brigade. It was resolved the short form was real long ago-- the conspiracy theory simply changed in order to avoid that roadblock, and postulated freshly that the short form may be a real document but it was copied from a forgery. Hence the "show the long form." Since you are apparently trapped in a time loop and still think it's 2008 when Atlas Bluffs pumped out this stupidity (and it had not yet been thoroughly discredited, so much so the Birthers had to ret-con their theory to no longer rely on that initial claim), then there is truly no point talking with you. You're not merely behind the times on THIS birth certificate; you still haven't even come to grips with the fact the last one was real too. I don't have the time. Stew in your own crazy-juice.

Posted by: ace at April 29, 2011 05:10 PM (nj1bB)

475 It's a question of whether throwing grenades at your enemy before taking the time to pull the pin is a wise move.
Posted by: Hollowpoint at April 29, 2011 10:05 PM (WRW1S)

People like "skr8 outta" who are so stuck on stupid they still think the original COLB was faked pulled the pin on the grenade and then held on to it.


Posted by: DrewM. at April 29, 2011 05:10 PM (dw7rB)

476 >>>unlike ace and the rest of you fanboys, ill fight about it like i have been all night. im not afraid of the label. Actually, Braveheart, you were afraid an hour ago, insisting "you're just asking questions." At any rate, since you're part of that, ahem, very exclusive club that still believes TechDude's post on Atlas Bluffs, you're beyond reason.

Posted by: ace at April 29, 2011 05:12 PM (nj1bB)

477 BTW, str8-- despite your desire to wish it were not so: Yesterday did, in fact, happen.

Posted by: ace at April 29, 2011 05:12 PM (nj1bB)

478 "I don't have the time. Stew in your own crazy-juice."

---yeah you do that ace...go retreat to your little blog-bunker like the scared pup you are. i called you out, i was right, and ill call you out again the next time youre wrong.


Posted by: skr8 outta at April 29, 2011 05:13 PM (zcTu+)

479

If this is the same question for all candidates, then I'm sure you wanted to see George W. Bush's birth certificate. Right?

Yeah, I kind of assumed there were people doing their jobs and making sure the candidates were eligible, The whole COLB thing kind of pointed up the idea that that is not being done adequately. I see you ignore what I wrote about "all candidates" in regards to this. Not surprising.


Posted by: KDNY at April 29, 2011 05:13 PM (ECt2r)

480 "let the 20% of the voters see it"

--- and you run away....

nice example....

Posted by: skr8 outta at April 29, 2011 05:14 PM (zcTu+)

481 yes, I'm retreating because I find it tedious to argue with a lunatic online. Laugh... so TechDude had it right on the COLB, dude? All of that analysis turned out to be correct, huh? And he didn't copy his alleged credentials from someone else's online resume? Yesterday Never Happened.

Posted by: ace at April 29, 2011 05:15 PM (nj1bB)

482 ---no dummy its cosmology....astrology means the positions of celestial bodies means youre a fag or a psycho path or sumthin....so your homework


Posted by: skr8 outta at April 29, 2011 10:09 PM (zcTu+)

No, astrology is predicting the future by looking at the stars.  Astronomy isn't the same, even though they both start with astro-.

You beclown yourself.  Again, I mean.

Posted by: FUBAR at April 29, 2011 05:17 PM (1fanL)

483 >>>Remember folks, the more time the right spends screaming at birthers the less the left have to to it to get it made into a sanity issue for the next election. It's a huge distraction and we shouldn't talk about it except for repeating ad infinitum in public that it's a huge distraction that we shouldn't talk about. Cackfinger, I agree, but is it not incumbent upon them to stop making a public spectacle of this? What, we're supposed to ignore it while they keep peddling it? As I have asked them: Since we agree, 100%, on 10-15 solid reasons Obama should not be president, why are they determined to advance their one farfetched, weird reason over all the others? Why don't they just drop it and talk about the other 10-15?

Posted by: ace at April 29, 2011 05:19 PM (nj1bB)

484 --At least you admit your stance is situational and not principled. That's something.

Huh?  If the arbitrary voter has the right to demand to see it, then it is principled.  You know ... a rule defined for an arbitrary element applies to all elements.

--Where exactly is this supposed entitlement enshrined? Besides your fertile imagination I mean.

In the same place where the Constitution defines what a "year" is.

--No one was offende? So when asshole Democrats spent 8 years bitching about Florida and 4 about Ohio, you were cool with that?

I can't say I really cared.  Why?  Dems are always bitcihing about something.

--I mean they were 'just asking questions' about Bush's legitimacy.

Who cares what they were asking?  Were you "offended" by that?

--That's a major constitutional issue, right? Should Bush have had to defend the Ohio vote count to any American who demanded it?

Posted by: DrewM. at April 29, 2011 10:07 PM (dw7rB)

2000 was bad, almost all the way around.  It turned out good - that Bush won - but it was really a tie.  The margin of victory in Florida was less than the margin of error in the system.  It was undecidable.  A true toss-up.  The courts all made minced-meat of the whole thing.  The butterfly effect  truly come to life.  Like I said, luckily - and it was only luck - it came down on Bush's side.

Ohio?  Let them bitch.  Who cares?   They're lefties.  They're idiots.

Posted by: iknowtheleft at April 29, 2011 05:19 PM (G/MYk)

485 "yes, I'm retreating because I find it tedious to argue with a lunatic online."

--- lol

"Laugh... so TechDude had it right on the COLB, dude?"

--- who is techdude? im not following EVERY conversation on here man....

"All of that analysis turned out to be correct, huh? "

---and you hide behind your friend's creds as if that validates your own concerns....and whats worse is you EXPECT me to do the same...sad.

go to your bunker.


.....i still love your blog lolol

Posted by: skr8 outta at April 29, 2011 05:19 PM (zcTu+)

486 >>>yeah you do that ace...go retreat to your little blog-bunker like the scared pup you are. i called you out, i was right, and ill call you out again the next time youre wrong.

It's amusing that you finally came out and admitted you were a Birther after attempting to deny it for so long in this thread.  What was this, some brilliant 'false-flag' operation conducted within the confines of your own mind?

Posted by: Jeff B. at April 29, 2011 05:19 PM (FO1sk)

487 I see you ignore what I wrote about "all candidates" in regards to this. Not surprising.
Posted by: KDNY at April 29, 2011 10:13 PM (ECt2r)

I didn't ignore it, I simply want to know if you were as insistent about seeing Bush's proof as you are about Obama's. "I know the left" admits he's not.

BTW-I've said it in this thread and before, if state official, electors or members of Congress want to see proof of eligibility I'm fine with that.

Posted by: DrewM. at April 29, 2011 05:21 PM (dw7rB)

488 "No, astrology is predicting the future by looking at the stars.  Astronomy isn't the same, even though they both start with astro-."

---youre a moron dude.....

you think the goddamn moon landing pics are suppoded to have a zillion stars in the background....you prolly think the flag isnt supposed to wave eitherrrrrrr.....

....go listen to jesse....

Posted by: skr8 outta at April 29, 2011 05:21 PM (zcTu+)

489 "What, we're supposed to ignore it while they keep peddling it?"

YES!!  People who are still flogging this weren't ever going to have fruitful political engagement that *didn't* hinge on crazy bullshit.  Ignoring them is precisely what you're supposed to do -- just like you don't point and laugh at crazy people on the street.  (You don't, I hope.)

  You're wrestling with the proverbial pig.  If that gets you off for its own sake, great.  If you think you're talking the dead-enders off the ledge, you're wasting your breath.

Posted by: Knemon at April 29, 2011 05:22 PM (nsxc+)

490 "It's amusing that you finally came out and admitted you were a Birther after attempting to deny it for so long in this thread. "

---when did i deny that? show me.....you cant. it doesnt bother me to be called a "birther"

what bothers me is ace's and others arrogance concerning the problem.

Posted by: skr8 outta at April 29, 2011 05:22 PM (zcTu+)

491

People like "skr8 outta" who are so stuck on stupid they still think the original COLB was faked pulled the pin on the grenade and then held on to it.

I prefer to think of people like him having thrown it straight up in the air.  After all, Obama believes in the laws of gravity, thus it must be a dirty, dirty lie.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at April 29, 2011 05:23 PM (WRW1S)

492 Ohio?  Let them bitch.  Who cares?   They're lefties.  They're idiots.
Posted by: iknowtheleft at April 29, 2011 10:19 PM (G/MYk)

If you're okay being a partisan hack and have no interest in any sort of intellectual consistency...enjoy.

Posted by: DrewM. at April 29, 2011 05:23 PM (dw7rB)

493 What problem? What are you referring to? Do you still believe it is a problem? Before he released it I'd be inclined to give you a break and say he was being a dick withholding it and if you wanted to be suspicious, that was your right, since he was refusing to make the one cost-free move that would settle this. But now he has released it. Is there STILL a problem?

Posted by: ace at April 29, 2011 05:24 PM (nj1bB)

494 >>>YES!! People who are still flogging this weren't ever going to have fruitful political engagement that *didn't* hinge on crazy bullshit. Ignoring them is precisely what you're supposed to do -- just like you don't point and laugh at crazy people on the street. (You don't, I hope.) No, it's enough already. It's enough. It has been indulged enough. ENOUGH.

Posted by: ace at April 29, 2011 05:25 PM (nj1bB)

495 Should Bush have had to defend the Ohio vote count to any American who demanded it?

Posted by: DrewM. at April 29, 2011 10:07 PM (dw7rB)


BTW, you're comparing complaints that people had to stand in line for hours ... aaaah ... had their voting rights infringed on because of some restriction of voting machines to Constitutional eligibility for the person on the ballot (who is ASSUMED to be eligible by virtue of the fact that the is on the ballot)?  Really?

I told you.  Lefties are loons.  Don't get dragged off into their warped world, where centipedes are entitled to welfare payments and rations of 100 pairs of shoes.

Posted by: iknowtheleft at April 29, 2011 05:26 PM (G/MYk)

496 "It has been indulged enough."

You-are-still-indulging-it-attention-is-what-it-wants

Posted by: Knemon at April 29, 2011 05:26 PM (nsxc+)

497 if people like me who think there were credible questions to be resolved are "birthers" then so be it....big deal....im not asking for proof of alien life here...

dumb asses.

label me all you want, but none of you make any sense AT ALL. now that the pres has showed his BC (and im satisfied) you act as if youre all high and mighty and oh so right! as if you knew all along there was nothing wrong! how superior of you!

....lol gimme a fuckin break.....losers.

Posted by: skr8 outta at April 29, 2011 05:26 PM (zcTu+)

498 I'm all out of excuses for my less-rational political brethren. I have excused away this stupidity for two fucking years in the interests of party unity. WHEN DO THEY BEGIN TO GIVE US A GOOD TURN BY STOPPING WITH THE STUPID CONSPIRACY THEORY?!

Posted by: ace at April 29, 2011 05:26 PM (nj1bB)

499 ---youre a moron dude.....

you think the goddamn moon landing pics are suppoded to have a zillion stars in the background....you prolly think the flag isnt supposed to wave eitherrrrrrr.....

....go listen to jesse....

Posted by: skr8 outta at April 29, 2011 10:21 PM (zcTu+)

No, you're the fucking idiot.  I was parodying you, but with the Moon landings.  I don't think the pics are supposed to have a zillion stars, and I KNOW the flag isn't supposed to wave (and it doesn't), because there's no air up there.  You think it is supposed to wave?  Or you were just talking out your ass.  Like with the birth certificate.  Genius.

You're oblivious.

Posted by: FUBAR at April 29, 2011 05:26 PM (1fanL)

500 It is time to put away childish things.

Posted by: ace at April 29, 2011 05:27 PM (nj1bB)

501 Posted by: DrewM. at April 29, 2011 09:35 PM (WnQJ3) My statement about "legitimate questions" referred to two separate issues -- birthplace and a possible conspiracy to hide non-birthplace related issues. One set of questions legit due to conduct of two governors and the DOH director; the birthplace question not legit. I've been over this at lenght before. Are you one of those guys like Hollowpoint who uses the term COLB because you haven't a clue what the entire controversy was about?

Posted by: Average Joe at April 29, 2011 05:28 PM (vDbXI)

502 >>>I think you're off by a factor of ten on your math. I bet we could come up with 200 reasons, given an hour of research. Starting with Obamacare waivers and going downhill from there. even better. We have so many reasons to oppose him we cannot possibly get to them all, let alone highlight them all. But this silly fantasy should be in the mix?!?

Posted by: ace at April 29, 2011 05:28 PM (nj1bB)

503 "No, you're the fucking idiot.  I was parodying you,"

--- the obvious retreat...put the clown nose on...

kind of like ace did....ace said the birther thing "had legs" then went on to say "i didnt really think that, i was just you know...wanting the president to resolve it"

....and we're supposed to buy that lolol

go tell the kid at the lemonade stand....you dont fool me...

Posted by: skr8 outta at April 29, 2011 05:29 PM (zcTu+)

504 I didn't ignore it, I simply want to know if you were as insistent about seeing Bush's proof as you are about Obama's. "I know the left" admits he's not.

Posted by: DrewM. at April 29, 2011 10:21 PM (dw7rB)

DUDE!!  Stop that!  I said that I ... ME ... MYSELF didn't care to see Bush's BC but that any voter who did care has a right to know that it's been examined, or see it himself. 

When we are debating law and rules, personal opinions don't matter.  The law remains the same. I would be pressing my right to know it is lawful in the Indonesian case, while anyone else can press their equal right to know about Bush.

Posted by: iknowtheleft at April 29, 2011 05:30 PM (G/MYk)

505 BTW-I've said it in this thread and before, if state official, electors or members of Congress want to see proof of eligibility I'm fine with that.

Gee, I'm sure they'd be glad to have your endorsement.

If Bush had some funky form alternate BC that seemed easy to falsify and was known to have a foreign parent and to have lived outside the country for years I would have said the same of him.
Don't act like all the candidates circumstances are the same or that Obama's aren't unique.
I am aware that McCain at least had the decency to have his own eligiblity reaffirmed due to his birth in the Canal Zone. I guess that was extreme too.

Posted by: KDNY at April 29, 2011 05:31 PM (ECt2r)

506 "I'm all out of excuses for my less-rational political brethren."

LISTEN to yourself.  Democrats don't make "excuses" for their LRPB, they keep them locked away until election day, when they cart them to the polls, holding their hands and murmuring whatever reassuring soft nonsense they need to hear about chemtrails, Truth, social justice or what have you.

Why this constant effort to purge and correct and Talk Sense To these nuts?  Who are you cleaning up for?

Posted by: Knemon at April 29, 2011 05:31 PM (nsxc+)

507 >>>ace said the birther thing "had legs" quote please? cite?

Posted by: ace at April 29, 2011 05:33 PM (nj1bB)

508 chem trails
global warming
aliens with UFOs
ozone depletion
time traveler with cell phone in chaplin film
ghosts

and these numnuts say were the same cuz we wana see a damn BC...

fuck them lol

Posted by: skr8 outta at April 29, 2011 05:34 PM (zcTu+)

509 >>>Why this constant effort to purge and correct and Talk Sense To these nuts? Who are you cleaning up for? Not everything is political. I don't like unreason from anyone. But as for the political aspect: Since we do need to unite, on whose terms shall we unite, Knemmon? Are we to unite on the idea that "Let's put this behind us and be more serious" or shall we unite as the Birthers want with the party still sort of paying lip-service to this crap? Which of those positions seems wisest to you? In our party platform -- we will have one, you know -- shall we have a couple of planks in there about Birtherism?

Posted by: ace at April 29, 2011 05:35 PM (nj1bB)

510 "quote please? cite?"

---you said it had legs ace, you said it seemed as if he was hiding something because he wasnt showing it.

as ive said ALL ALONG you sidestepped the issue to avoid the chance you might have been mistaken....but you CLEARLY wanted it resolved...and you know im RIGHT....so stop with the act already.

Posted by: skr8 outta at April 29, 2011 05:36 PM (zcTu+)

511 "No, you're the fucking idiot.  I was parodying you,"

--- the obvious retreat...put the clown nose on...

go tell the kid at the lemonade stand....you dont fool me...

Posted by: skr8 outta at April 29, 2011 10:29 PM (zcTu+)

Don't stop there, Clouseau.  Explain why you think the flag should wave on the Moon.  With no atmosphere.  Or were you just running your cocksucker to hear it run?

Posted by: FUBAR at April 29, 2011 05:37 PM (1fanL)

512 When we are debating law and rules, personal opinions don't matter.
Posted by: iknowtheleft at April 29, 2011 10:30 PM (G/MYk)

It matters because it demonstrates you come from no principles other than if you think the quesiton is important then it's important. If someone you disagree with thinks it's important your response is, "Ohio?  Let them bitch.  Who cares?   They're lefties.  They're idiots."

You're not trying to advance or protect any principle.

Posted by: DrewM. at April 29, 2011 05:39 PM (dw7rB)

513

label me all you want, but none of you make any sense AT ALL. now that the pres has showed his BC (and im satisfied) you act as if youre all high and mighty and oh so right! as if you knew all along there was nothing wrong! how superior of you!

Yes, I was and am right, and did "know all along" that there was nothing (or nothing significant) wrong, and have a long history of comments about the issue to back that up.

And yes, I am superior to you; thanks for recognizing that!  If only that weren't such a low hurdle.

Now finish  your journey to manhood and stick to admitting that you were wrong, I and people like me were right, and stop talking back to your betters.

Posted by: Hollowpoint at April 29, 2011 05:40 PM (WRW1S)

514 "No, you're the fucking idiot.  I was parodying you,"

--- the obvious retreat...put the clown nose on...

go tell the kid at the lemonade stand....you dont fool me...
Posted by: skr8 outta at April 29, 2011 10:29 PM (zcTu+)

Oh, and earlier you were busting my hump because I was lumping you with the moon hoaxers.  So you knew I was goofing on your stupid ass.

The ability to hold two contradictory beliefs at once?  Integrative complexity.

Posted by: FUBAR at April 29, 2011 05:40 PM (1fanL)

515 "In our party platform -- we will have one, you know -- shall we have a couple of planks in there about Birtherism?"

Of course not.  But you are exhibiting early CJ signs, here.  You keep acting like shocked that there are nuts and idjits and racists and obsessives on your side -- as there are on the other side -- and trying to browbeat them into no longer being nuts &c.

Most of the recent large "birther" numbers in polls are weakly held positions of doubt, from people who aren't that engaged.  The people you encounter online, on the other hand, are the attic-aunt chemtrails enthusiasts.  Neither of these groups are going to be writing the platform.

Don't indulge it -- "indulging it," by the way, being exactly what you were doing in your "I Hereby Declare This Obama's Problem" post, by the way, which sowed a seed which skr8 is now harvesting.  Don't ACNKOWLEDGE it.

Crazy.  Aunt.  In the.  Attic.

Posted by: Knemon at April 29, 2011 05:41 PM (nsxc+)

516 If Bush had some funky form alternate BC that seemed easy to falsify and was known to have a foreign parent and to have lived outside the country for years I would have said the same of him.
Posted by: KDNY at April 29, 2011 10:31 PM (ECt2r)

There was nothing "funky" or "alternate" about the original COLB. You guys just made shit up and when it was refuted just made more shit up.

The fact that you can't admit your original theory held no water shows how invested you are in bullshit.

Posted by: DrewM. at April 29, 2011 05:42 PM (dw7rB)

517 >>>If Bush had some funky form alternate BC that seemed easy to falsify and was known to have a foreign parent and to have lived outside the country for years I would have said the same of him. But Obama did not have funky alternate BC. He had the offiical Hawaiian birth certificate. Need I remind you of the history of birtherism? TechDude claimed this document was fake. It wasn't. To save face and keep the conspiracy alive, the claim mutated into the new (and then unfalsifiable) claim that while the short form COLB was legit in the sense of state-issued, it was based in turn on a long form, usually kept ONLY for records purposes, which was nonexistant or which indicated a foreign birth. But the COLB, the short form, never was "funky." It was exactly what Hawaiian citizens were given when they requested a birth certificate. The Long Form, which became the holy grail of birthers, was just a different version of it -- the original version, yeah, but the short form was not something made up for Obama. It was the STANDARD thing they gave you. They just apparently didn't see the point of giving out the long form. I'll bet you dimes to donuts a lot of other states do this, too-- when I got my "birth certificate" in NJ it was fairly short and did not have all the gew-gaws on it like doctor's signatures. So there was nothing wrong with the first one, and nothing funky. But, some of the online conservatives having "gotten a little bit pregnant" with the nonsense put out by TechDude at Atlas Bluffs, now had to scramble to create a new theory which wasn't shit-hammered like the last one was. And thus the new cry: Show us the long form (which apparently isn't really used in Hawaii for identification purposes; it's kept to generate the short form, which is). There never was any legitimate reason to suspect the COLB of being fake except the made-up bullshit -- and proven to be so -- that TechDude and Atlas Bluffs first infected the online conservative movement with in 2008. And all that was false. it was ALL false.

Posted by: ace at April 29, 2011 05:43 PM (nj1bB)

518 "Yes, I was and am right, and did "know all along" that there was nothing (or nothing significant) wrong, and have a long history of comments about the issue to back that up.

And yes, I am superior to you; thanks for recognizing that!  If only that weren't such a low hurdle.

Now finish  your journey to manhood and stick to admitting that you were wrong, I and people like me were right, and stop talking back to your betters."


--- yawn....you dont have to stand by ace's side you know?....this isnt the first time we tangled.....here, have an icehouse...

Posted by: skr8 outta at April 29, 2011 05:43 PM (zcTu+)

519 It's gotta be a sock.  Nobody is that retarded.

Is that you, Kratos?

Posted by: FUBAR at April 29, 2011 05:43 PM (1fanL)

520 "Ohio?  Let them bitch.  Who cares?   They're lefties.  They're idiots."

You're not trying to advance or protect any principle.

Oh please.  I was being flip in the first answer and answered you fully in the following post.  If you want to equate those two situations, then fine.  You'll be in a gang of one ... and a bunch of lefties.  You're not arguing Constitutionality, there ... unless you are going to jump into that extension of "right to vote" that gets us no ID and same-day registration and all that crap?  Are you?  Because those are the same arguments you'll have to use.

Posted by: iknowtheleft at April 29, 2011 05:44 PM (G/MYk)

521 I never said it "had legs," dope.

Posted by: ace at April 29, 2011 05:44 PM (nj1bB)

522 "Oh, and earlier you were busting my hump because I was lumping you with the moon hoaxers.  So you knew I was goofing on your stupid ass.

The ability to hold two contradictory beliefs at once?  Integrative complexity."


---reading comprehension....me learneded it in 2nd grade......

Posted by: skr8 outta at April 29, 2011 05:44 PM (zcTu+)

523 " I never said it "had legs," dope. "

---yes you did, fucking liar.


Posted by: skr8 outta at April 29, 2011 05:45 PM (zcTu+)

524 I am just making the point that this whole thing began as LIE. A LIE which snowballed, and got many people hopeful, a LIE which many people bit on. But it was always a LIE. You want to talk forgery? TechDude's credentials were forged. Half his "evidence" was forged. He just made shit up. Look, fine, that's what that guy did and that's no one else's fault. But please -- this LIE has been going on for over two years. It is time to stop the LIE.

Posted by: ace at April 29, 2011 05:47 PM (nj1bB)

525 ace....

quit fucking buying into the dopey shit....

the damn story had legit QUESTIONS....shit wasnt known 100%....so what?

so people asked? big fuckin deal....

he answered them....albeit two goddamn years later....but he answered them....wow....

and youre worried it corrupts your credibility....quit acting like a fucking jack ass...

Posted by: skr8 outta at April 29, 2011 05:49 PM (zcTu+)

526 the damn story had legit QUESTIONS....shit wasnt known 100%....so what?
so people asked? big fuckin deal....
Posted by: skr8 outta at April 29, 2011 10:49 PM (zcTu+)

Rossie O'Donnell, Andrew Sullivan and Alex Jones salute you!

Posted by: DrewM. at April 29, 2011 05:52 PM (dw7rB)

527 You guys just made shit up and when it was refuted just made more shit up

Cite anything at all  that I ever wrote about this before this thread. You can't because it doesn't exist. I commented here because I think it sucks to tell people they are stupid for wanting ID. That is what we are talking about here.

My understanding was that the COLB had a lower threshold of proof. The longform should have been required pre-election.

Posted by: KDNY at April 29, 2011 05:53 PM (ECt2r)

528 I like your name, droid. to answer your previous post: Thinking up new shit to throw at Obama is kind of the default function of conservative blogs. We're already sort of doing that.

Posted by: ace at April 29, 2011 05:55 PM (nj1bB)

529 Cite anything at all  that I ever wrote about this before this thread
Posted by: KDNY at April 29, 2011 10:53 PM (ECt2r)

I never said you did. I was lumping you in with people who agree with your assessment. The "You guys"formulation should have clued you into that. You're advancing the same arguments now as others have before.

My understanding was that the COLB had a lower threshold of proof.

You were wrong.

The longform should have been required pre-election.

Bully for you. Your personal feelings are not legal requirements.

Posted by: DrewM. at April 29, 2011 05:58 PM (dw7rB)

530 How come they've only released the short form Certification of Not Fucking V*ra Baker?

Posted by: Average Joe at April 29, 2011 05:59 PM (vDbXI)

531 >>>Cite anything at all that I ever wrote about this before this thread. You can't because it doesn't exist. I think he means "You guys" as in "people in the birther movement" and not you specifically. I think he is referring to the "Throw anything at the wall and see if it sticks" sort of argument-by-hundreds-of-scattershot-claims sort of thing the birther movement has done. This new "layers" argument -- anyone really check on that before emailing it around with subject lines like YOU HAVE TO READ THIS!!! ? You know? It's like they say in poker when you just show no discrimination in hand selection -- any two'll do. As for calling the birthers stupid, I'm not doing that. At least, not before. I think I understand what happened. I think TechDude got people a little bit pregnant with a lie, but a very appealing lie, and people latched on to it before their brains engaged. And it got stuck there ever since. And when Obama didn't release the long form it fed it. But, again, he has released it. This has to go away at some point.

Posted by: ace at April 29, 2011 06:01 PM (nj1bB)

532 ace is a bullshitter on this one. he's cherry-picking arguments to pretend he has the high ground and he has dumb followers sticking by....you know just in case....

....its a sad day in the blogosphere...

Posted by: skr8 outta at April 29, 2011 06:03 PM (zcTu+)

533 The fact that you can't admit your original theory held no water shows how invested you are in bullshit.

I had no "theory" I just don't think your library card should count as voter ID. And I don't buy the new conspiracy either but nobody should ever be allowed to run for office without scrupulously proving their eligibility.

Posted by: KDNY at April 29, 2011 06:03 PM (ECt2r)

534 I'm just glad that this argument is carrying on with quality posters tonight, because I'm on an eternally long fucking Greyhound bus trip from Washington DC to Madison WI and I need something to occupy my time.  Let's just say that sitting in a bus station in Cleveland OH isn't as exciting as they made it out to be.

Posted by: Jeff B. at April 29, 2011 06:06 PM (E+GWu)

535 OK Drew. Tell me about the COLB. If the requirements are the same then why do they have two forms?

Bully for you. Your personal feelings are not legal requirements.

Thanks for informing me. I'll be sure to remember that in the future.

Posted by: KDNY at April 29, 2011 06:07 PM (ECt2r)

536 but nobody should ever be allowed to run for office without scrupulously proving their eligibility.
Posted by: KDNY at April 29, 2011 11:03 PM (ECt2r)

Well that's a principled statement.

Back in the real world...no one currently holding federal elective office has shown a birth certificate (long form or otherwise).  Perhaps you should start a petition.

Posted by: DrewM. at April 29, 2011 06:08 PM (dw7rB)

537 >>>....its a sad day in the blogosphere...

Yeah, angels are fucking weeping.

Posted by: Jeff B. at April 29, 2011 06:11 PM (E+GWu)

538 Ace, I'm fine with the death of  the issue. I was not invested in any idea except an angry realization that I take all issues of elections more seriously than many in government.
The only problem I have in this thread is the idea that one could never have wanted to see the BC without being a lunatic.


Posted by: KDNY at April 29, 2011 06:12 PM (ECt2r)

539 Average Joe, Speaking of V*ra Baker, you know what that has in common with Birtherism? They were both shopped around by Hillary Clinton operatives. That's how it was shopped to me. Hillary Clinton operatives had been trying to get the media to investigate it. Eventually people who I think may be conservative (not really sure) caught wind of it and started to try to put it together. They shopped it to me. I think the DNC guy who would have been a witness backed out completely when it was clear the Obama would win and so speaking on the record would just doom the Democrats completely, not help Hillary. I still sort of believe that. Lot of interesting details, and I don't mean sex, I mean payoffs and a surprise appearance by French Intelligence, trying to make sure V*ra Baker wasn't bothered by journalists in Martinique. But you know, without evidence or a witness, what do you do? Just claim "I heard this from some shadowy guys?" With the Birther thing, I don't understand the endgame -- what is the endgame foreseen? I know the last step is Obama's impeachment; what is the ? step before that? 1. Mainstream 2. ? 3. Impeach What proof does anyone think they'll have for these suspicions? Back when I used to try to argue with people about this, I used to say, "You know, even if you're right, which you're not, how do you win? If they have to they can forge a document. You can't win, so why bother?" So what's the endgame? That everyone just keeps repeating the same tired assertions and claims with the same lack of evidence and for some reason mass avowal of a suspicion becomes a judicially-recognizable fact at an impeachment hearing?

Posted by: ace at April 29, 2011 06:13 PM (nj1bB)

540 >>>Greyhound bus trip

>>>Serious question: better or worse than the TSA grope?

Longer (LOTS LONGER) but more comfortable than flying, plus I get free WiFi and the ability to plug my laptop in and charge it.  That's worth its weight in gold just so long as us morons keep this shit interesting into the night. 

Go go morons!

Posted by: Jeff B. at April 29, 2011 06:13 PM (E+GWu)

541 Tell me about the COLB. If the requirements are the same then why do they have two forms?
Posted by: KDNY at April 29, 2011 11:07 PM (ECt2r)
They don't.

When you ask the Department of Health in Hawaii for a "Birth Certificate" they give you the COLB that Obama presented a year ago. It's simply a short form of the relevant information taken from the longer form.

It comes from the same source and is certified as accurate and true by the state official charged with that responsibility. It's a legally accepted document in any court or by any government agency.

You haven't a fucking clue about the issues involved in this and yet you spout off. Amazing.



Posted by: DrewM. at April 29, 2011 06:13 PM (dw7rB)

542 "The only problem I have in this thread is the idea that one could never have wanted to see the BC without being a lunatic."

---oh well according to ace, you ARE a loony tune....while he runs away to the bunker and pretends to be smart etc...

fuck that bs....

Posted by: skr8 outta at April 29, 2011 06:13 PM (zcTu+)

543 Back in the real world...no one currently holding federal elective office has shown a birth certificate (long form or otherwise).

McCain did.  And the Senate moved on McCain ... with Barky as co-sponsor. 

blah blah blah ...

Whereas John Sidney McCain, III, was born to American citizens on an American military base in the Panama Canal Zone in 1936: Now, therefore, be it


Resolved, That John Sidney McCain, III, is a `natural born Citizen' under Article II, Section 1, of the Constitution of the United States.

Posted by: iknowtheleft at April 29, 2011 06:14 PM (G/MYk)

544 Back in the real world...no one currently holding federal elective office has shown a birth certificate (long form or otherwise).  Perhaps you should start a petition.
You know this because you sit on all state election boards, yes?
Similarly, many states require no ID to vote. But that's cool too, right. Oh yeah - a petition. Good one.


Posted by: KDNY at April 29, 2011 06:15 PM (ECt2r)

545 Incidentally, skr8, and I'll admit this is a pet peeve...how fucking hard can it be to punctuate properly and use correct grammar?  For someone who accuses every non-Birther of being a braindead moron, you seem peculiarly attached to the 'badges of stupidity.'

Posted by: Jeff B. at April 29, 2011 06:17 PM (FO1sk)

546 "how fucking hard can it be to punctuate properly and use correct grammar? "

--- oh for christs sakes youre not going to grade me on that shit are you? really, dont try and go down that road lest youre lost in the mid 90's....you know... when the internet was new to errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrone....

Posted by: skr8 outta at April 29, 2011 06:19 PM (zcTu+)

547 "If the requirements are the same"

It's not about requirements.  One is a reduced version of the other.

DAMMIT now I'm doing it.
 

Posted by: Knemon at April 29, 2011 06:22 PM (nsxc+)

548 Posted by: KDNY at April 29, 2011 11:15 PM (ECt2r)

To run you have to file a declaration of candidacy. Part of it usually includes signed, sworn statement where you swear you are eligible to hold the office. Here's Texas' (pdf).

But hey, you're so worried about it perhaps you should conduct a survey to make sure everyone is showing a birth certificate. Then you can fix it with a petition.

Posted by: DrewM. at April 29, 2011 06:23 PM (dw7rB)

549 knemon, you know, one of the reason I'm engaging is because this is sustained by a series of falsehoods that no one ever challenges them on--not on the right, I mean. On the right, we shrug. the left challenges them but they don't read the left. Among the falsehoods -- the idea currently being discussed that the COLB wasn't real or was some kind of funky or unofficial birth certificate; that Pakistan banned US passports so of course Obama must have had a different passport; that children are permitted to renounce their citizenship; and on and on. There's just this whole thicket of viral mistakes, errors, falsehoods and misunderstandings that propagates all this. And it's sort of plain that the birth certificate people never read the debunkings. That's why I keep asking people to at least read it. So I don't have to keep hearing about the ban of US passports from Pakistan that never happened.

Posted by: ace at April 29, 2011 06:30 PM (nj1bB)

550 Quoting myself here but:

"Most of the recent large "birther" numbers in polls are weakly held positions of doubt, from people who aren't that engaged.  The people you encounter online, on the other hand, are the attic-aunt chemtrails enthusiasts."

I think part of the problem is that skr8 actually is the former, but you're taking out on him your frustration with the latter.

Posted by: Knemon at April 29, 2011 06:31 PM (nsxc+)

551 "And it's sort of plain that the birth certificate people never read the debunkings. That's why I keep asking people to at least read it."

So put it prominently on the sidebar, sticky.  If you're on this mission to enlighten the heathen birthers, get to it.  Fly your non-freak flag high.

I mean, it's your site.  I'm just saying, if you're that concerned with this, you could more actively Spread the Knowledge.

Posted by: Knemon at April 29, 2011 06:33 PM (nsxc+)

552 Oh Drew-

Certificates for children born out of State.
  (a)  Upon application of an adult or the legal parents of a minor child, the director of health shall issue a birth certificate for such adult or minor, provided that proof has been submitted to the director of health that the legal parents of such individual while living without the Territory or State of Hawaii had declared the Territory or State of Hawaii as their legal residence for at least one year immediately preceding the birth or adoption of such child.

     From

www.capitol.hawaii.govThis is what I was referring to. Issuance of a state COLB to a child born out of state. That seems a little different from the average BC to me. But what do I know.

Posted by: KDNY at April 29, 2011 06:55 PM (ECt2r)

553
But hey, you're so worried about it perhaps you should conduct a survey to make sure everyone is showing a birth certificate. Then you can fix it with a petition.

No, i only care because a black man is in the office. Damn you is stupid. I take you believe the founders were wrong in placing a citizenship requirement on running for office since you care so little about checking.

Posted by: KDNY at April 29, 2011 06:59 PM (ECt2r)

554 With the Birther thing, I don't understand the endgame -- what is the endgame foreseen? Pre-election, the endgame was to prevent his election by raising questions regarding his birthplace , parentage etc. enough to muddy the waters before he could recover in the polls.  The issue was not created with impeachment in mind at all. It was a condom, not an abortion. If for some reason Trump had begun pushing the birther thing in mid-October 2008, who knows what would have happened? Post-election, the endgame was to uncover some non-birthplace- related fact that would call his official biography into question to the extent that all his representations and records regarding it would be fair game. Different father,  failure to change name back from Soetoro, etc. -- stuff that might legitimatize inquiries into his transcripts, applications based on (false) claims that he was a foreign student, authorship of "Dreams," the Social Security number problem and so on. Unfortunately, those inquiries may be foreclosed by the release of the long-form (which is particularly bad since the SS# and Dreams questions may have lead somewhere). A secondary objective could have been to create a scandal relating to efforts to conceal the document, which almost happened due to the odd behavior of Lingle,  Fukino, Abercrombie and Wisch. I know there are skilled document forgers out there but it's still hard to cover all the bases, and if there are facts that conflict with the document there might be corroborating evidence to impeach it.  A Kenyan divorce proceeding in which Obama Sr. disclaims paternity? Stuff crops up.

Posted by: Average Joe at April 29, 2011 07:04 PM (liBQN)

555
I think part of the problem is that skr8 actually is the former, but you're taking out on him your frustration with the latter.

That is the way I see it too.

Posted by: KDNY at April 29, 2011 07:14 PM (ECt2r)

556

This is the wrong approach Ace... not that I don't try the same thing.  Every clear thinking person uses logic to argue a point.  However, these radical birthers are too far into this conspiracy to be swayed by any logical argument.  It defines them in their mind, to their family, friends or anyone who cares what they think.  If they do a 180 now, they'll look like they fell for a wackjob conspiracy in their mind.. .(yeah they did.. haha) so they can't change their mind.  So the belief becomes even more entrenched.

The only approach is to ignore them, or shame them with the knowledge that they are damaging the conservative image.  Hopefully that will shut some of them up if they have any sense.

I swear if this issue wins the election for obama rex, it could be over for the US... and it will be THEIR FAULT

Posted by: Billy Barty at April 29, 2011 07:21 PM (V+aEN)

557 Correction 2: I got two "Kenyan Birth Certificates" muddled. I thought there was only one forged Kenyan Birth Certificate. No, turns out there were too; the first one the Birther Emeritus Philip Berg seized upon, and the second one, slightly better, that Orly Taitz seized upon. Bet you wish you had take the Blue Pill now, eh?

Posted by: Comrade Arthur at April 29, 2011 07:35 PM (zpByr)

558 Regarding V*ra Baker -- Rielle Hunter was V*ra Baker until the National Enquirer chased John Edwards into a hotel basement.  And if payoffs are involved or the woman goes crazy it can all bubble over.  Keeping it alive at all times on the Internet helps to stir the pot until it's ready for  mass consumption. If you Google "V*ra Baker" and "Wambu" you'll find something interesting -- hundreds of sites reposting the full text of her now non-existent Wikipedia biography.  How did that happen? In the fall of 2009, when no one was interested in her, I created the bio without mentioning the sex rumors. In the Wikipedia works that's called making a "coat hanger" -- and entry created to later hang other stuff on.  When the story got some minor MSM press in mid-2010, the Obama operatives went mad trying to delete the entry on "notability" grounds. (Although she was a top African American fundraiser, it was ultimately decided that unlike McCain's alleged lobbyist-mistress, she was a nobody).  They succeeded in removing it, but the process took a week and by that time the web was saturated with her name and the bio. Unfortunately, the Obama side took early control of Google/Wikipedia birther situation.  I think the controversy would have come to a head more quickly if the top search results didn't lead to the misleading FactCheck, Snopes and Wikipedia pages which insisted that the short form was his "original", official and incontestable BC.  But I think Google had a hand in rigging that as well.

Posted by: Average Joe at April 29, 2011 07:38 PM (liBQN)

559 This information derived in this FOIA on Barack Obama Sr. is crazy ...

http://tinyurl.com/3p4d8mv


1.  Obama Sr. was a British Foreign national (he applied for foreign student aid)

2.  He stole SSNs and was an illegal alien after August 8th, 1961

3.  He was a polygamist who fucked around on Obama's mom.

Read through all the pages ... crazy read ...



Posted by: The Total Lack of Obama's Transparency at April 29, 2011 08:00 PM (TLqEw)

560 >>>Unfortunately, the Obama side took early control of Google/Wikipedia birther situation. I think the controversy would have come to a head more quickly if the top search results didn't lead to the misleading FactCheck, Snopes and Wikipedia pages which insisted that the short form was his "original", official and incontestable BC In what way do you contest them? Please let me know which expert opinion you're relying on here to conclude this is contestable. Facts, specifics. Name of the person and his expertise for making these claims. Is this TechDude again? "Dr. Poladrin" or whoever?

Posted by: ace at April 29, 2011 08:34 PM (nj1bB)

561 The way you're talking sounds like you knew this was bunk but were pushing it anyway in hopes it would be a good catspaw for hurting Obama. If that's the case, what makes you think that a concoction would work better than the truth?

Posted by: ace at April 29, 2011 08:39 PM (nj1bB)

562 Just one question: Does anybody have an explanation for the lack of "chromatic distortion" or whatever in the PDF document that doesn't involve the document being altered? I'm not a "birther." I believe he was born in Hawaii. I think this should not be an issue anymore. But having said all that...why the lack of chromatic distortion? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

Posted by: Poland at April 29, 2011 10:03 PM (qDPnZ)

563 Hmmm...such keen analysis, Ace.

What, however, was the motivation to release it now. Was that Trump feller flapping his gums? Could be.

Or maybe John Kerry slipped him a note about the wisdom of staying a step or two ahead of Jerome Corsi...

Posted by: butternut at April 29, 2011 11:44 PM (obKTL)

564 In what way do you contest them? Please let me know which expert opinion you're relying on here to conclude this is contestable. I am no longer contesting the facts contained in the short form. Nor did I ever contest that the short form released was authentic in the sense that it was actually issued by the Hawaii Department of Health. What bothered me through the entire debate was the reference to the short form as the "original" birth certificate -- carrying the suggestion that it was the CONTEMPORANEOUS document created in 1961 and signed by the delivering physician. FactCheck was particularly and I think deliberately misleading in this respect. It was ridiculous to suggest that the evidentiary value of a 2008 affidavit by current officials, all of whom made conflicting statements about the long form, was equal to the 1961 doctor-signed copy. Even Andrew Sullivan understood this, to the extent that he was called "birther" by WND for demanding to see the long form. He switched positions within 24 hours, suddenly declaring that the short form was the "original." It was stuff like that happening over and over that made me suspicious -- did the White House call him and remind him how helpful they'd been with his pot arrest? In retrospect, yes, it seems silly to question the facts, but I still don't have an explanation for the delay in releasing the original and the conduct of the press and the Hawaii officials.

Posted by: Average Joe at April 30, 2011 04:45 AM (liBQN)

565 "210 >>>ace -

Let's instead trust implicitly random strangers posting on blogs in emails.

That should produce good outcomes."


dan rather ring a bell?  should we also have just trusted him?  a celebrated member of the media?  instead of some random bloggers that have no idea what they were doing?

sometimes it does produce good outcomes.  wouldnt you agree ace?  but you have to first examine the supposed evidence instead of taking liberals at their word.

Posted by: Lifeisdeath at April 30, 2011 05:27 AM (mOH9C)

566 Started reading this shit storm of stupidity this morning. Really started to wonder why I was on AoSHQ at all.

Now that it's official I'm not allowed to question the 'Won'

Then what did I see- DrewM jumped right in there and removed all doubt

Cause I'm telling ya folks when DrewM says I'm a sucker, that's when I'm absolutely positive, I'm on the RIGHT TEAM!


Posted by: Blacksmith8 at April 30, 2011 07:32 AM (Q1qy3)

567 "And it's sort of plain that the birth certificate people never read the debunkings. That's why I keep asking people to at least read it. So I don't have to keep hearing about the ban of US passports from Pakistan that never happened."

Alrighty then, Ace, I'll take your challenge.

You post the dates of Barry Dunham/Soetoro/ObowMao trip to visit his 'family' in PockEEEstahn and I'll post the period for which travel to Pakistan was INTERDICTED by our U.S. State Department.

Do you really want to play this game?

"Those who will not study history are DOOMED to repeat it."

Posted by: Blacksmith8 at April 30, 2011 07:40 AM (Q1qy3)

568 It's pretty obvious Teh One is not going to be removed from office even if it was proven that he was not eligible for the Presidency and he knew it. How about focusing all this energy on his recent record which is not so clouded over by the passage of time?

Posted by: Mark at April 30, 2011 10:11 AM (5ESFQ)

569 "I'll post the period for which travel to Pakistan was INTERDICTED by our U.S. State Department." When was that? What's your source?

Posted by: Knemon at April 30, 2011 03:19 PM (nsxc+)

570 That's interesting.

Posted by: pacman vs margarito at April 30, 2011 05:39 PM (SNLC/)

571 Over here. I keep seeing this guy cited authoritatively as an expert on the long form's falsity. He's an expert on Adobe photoshop and imagery analysis because he says so. Now, "TechDude" and the other guy who claimed the original COLB was fake also swore they were experts, too, and every single thing they said, even the most basic stuff, turned out to be 100% false. Like saying the COLB should have a signature (it actually should be on the BACK of the document-- where it actually was), and a stamp (also on the back), and a watermark (zoom in, hoss, it's got that too). So every single thing these experts said turned out to be 100% horseshit. Didn't stop them from further "investigation" into the matter, of course. But that was then, this is now. We have new "experts" telling us pretty much the same crap TechDude did three years ago. So let's believe these guys. At least, they haven't been proven to be full of shit yet. Let's skip past the beginning of MarketTicker's analysis and focus on a statement he makes, the reasonableness or unreasonableness of which can be easily determined without any of the "expertise" he claims for himself.

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